-
Maranda
I thought igniterealtime.org had IBR open
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jonas’
the XMPP logo, what are the conditions for use?
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edhelas
by the way for the upcoming XMPP newsletter, is it possible to add the release of Movim 0.14 ?
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Seve
edhelas: yes
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edhelas
https://nl.movim.eu/?node/pubsub.movim.eu/Movim/movim-0-14-scotty-anniversary-edition-J8qk3N
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edhelas
:)
-
edhelas
0.14.1 will follow soon I think
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jonas’
Seve, I’d like to append that Muclumbus now lives on the search.jabber.network domain and has seen some minor extensions, such as [software version and service type statistics](https://search.jabber.network/stats)✎ -
Seve
You got it, jonas’
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Ge0rG
when is newsletter day again?
-
jonas’
Seve, I’d like to append that the [Public Chat Room search Muclumbus](https://search.jabber.network/) now lives on the search.jabber.network domain and has seen some minor extensions, such as [software version and service type statistics](https://search.jabber.network/stats) ✏
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jonas’
Ge0rG, 1st of month
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Ge0rG
Damn, I wanted to write a yaxim 0.9.3 release announcement
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Seve
Still in time :P
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Ge0rG
Seve: but I don't have the time to write it.
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Ge0rG
maybe tomorrow on the train, unless I take the automobile.
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moparisthebest
jonas’: is there a way to search which domains are running which software listed on there
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jonas’
moparisthebest, not from the webinterface
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jonas’
the database has the information though
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moparisthebest
Ah bummer, thanks
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jonas’
moparisthebest, anything in particular you want to know?
-
moparisthebest
The echo services
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jonas’
ah
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jonas’
they’re echo.some.domain typically; I heard that some ejabberd versions had those enabled by default
-
moparisthebest
so I wrote https://github.com/moparisthebest/xmpp-echo-self and host it at echo.burtrum.org but didn't know anything else remotely similar existed
-
moparisthebest
was curious what they did and if I could maybe use them instead :)
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jonas’
apparently, they’re open to the world ;-)
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jonas’
but I wouldn’t rely on the service.
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moparisthebest
well I meant in a 'something else had already been written' sense
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daniel
Why aren't mam messages type=headline?
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Ge0rG
Yes.
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Ge0rG
I think this is due to most XEP authors not explicitly thinking about message type.
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Ge0rG
And around a year ago, I came to the realization that type=headline would be the best for MAM with RFC6120 routing rules
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daniel
Well I'm glad we talked about it
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MattJ
PRs welcome :)
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daniel
MattJ: to the xep?
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daniel
I'm happy to do that
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MattJ
Does it currently recommend a message type? or does it just not mention it?
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jonas’
inb4 the examples are just type-less (i.e. normal)
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jonas’
yupp
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daniel
So we can change it without a ns bump?
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Zash
How do you like having MAM results in MAM?
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daniel
Lol
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Zash
and carbons?
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daniel
Yes that's the reason for making it headline
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MattJ
One reason
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Ge0rG
Can I have Carbons of MAM results please?
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daniel
Mam + carbons are two reason 😊
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Ge0rG
headline is not immune to Carbons.
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MattJ
I'm curious if any clients check the message type though
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Ge0rG
the actual reason I see is message re-routing when the receiving client disconnects
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Zash
We almost need a type that's explicitly for non-message data
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Ge0rG
Zash: except we can't.
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Zash
XMPP 2.0!
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Zash
Anyways, this ties into the Carbons / MAM rule of normal messages IFF they have <body>
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daniel
but headlines are already ignored by mam and carbon, aren’t they?
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Zash
daniel: What if I want MAM of pubsub events?
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daniel
i think what we really need is a matrix like blockchain of messages
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Ge0rG
0280 doesn't even mention headline.
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Zash
It's not a chat system, it's a real time distributed graph database
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Ge0rG
Is anybody using headline for anything?
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Zash
Ge0rG: Notifications mostly
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jonas’
pubsub is using headline I thin
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Zash
I've got server notifications as headline
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Zash
some are pubsub
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jonas’
spammers use headline, too
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jonas’
cf. https://developer.pidgin.im/ticket/17237✎ -
jonas’
see https://developer.pidgin.im/ticket/17237 ✏
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Ge0rG
Zash: server notifications for you to read or for pubsub stuff?
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Zash
Ge0rG: Stuff like s2s cert failures. Pubsub stuff include a RSS/Atom feed.
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Ge0rG
is that a yes or no?
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Zash
Ge0rG: I don't understand the question
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Zash
I'm using headline messages for things. Poezio does a very good job with showing them.
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Ge0rG
Zash: so your headline messages have a body.
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Zash
Correct
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ralphm
Pubsub doesn't require headline, but usually people choose that to make the notifications transient/volatile. E.g. prevent storage in MAM.
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ralphm
Body elements in them are nice for having a fallback payload.
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ralphm
So that clients can still display something
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daniel
yeah i think that mid term you might want the pubsub notifications that generated automatically (like pep sending it on every login) to be headline. and 'proper' pubsub notifications to be type=normal and land in mam
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Zash
There's a configuration option for that.
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Zash
PubSub has everything!
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daniel
Cool
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Ge0rG
In theory, Carbons should be headline as well by that logic.
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MattJ
Pubsub has everything, and MUC has everything else
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MattJ
and it's still not enough
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ralphm
That's why we're doing MIX, right?
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Ge0rG
Because it combines the complexity of pubsub with the bad design of muc?
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ralphm
I don't agree that a) pubsub is complex, b) MIX is badly designed. So, no.
- rion is eating popcorn and waiting when mix becomes draft standard
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moparisthebest
that might end up being a LOT of popcorn
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ralphm
Well, that might take a while, indeed. Multiple implementations might help. My team is working on this and I intend to relay some (more) feedback.
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Ge0rG
ralphm: that would be awesome indeed. I'd like to be proven wrong.
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rion
btw does anyone have a voice messages xep in mind? I know Conversation implements something, but I'd like to pass some metadata with the message like amplitude histogram for example.
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ralphm
Oh, interesting. I'd suggest looking at the SIMS spec, and adding something analogous to thumbnails.
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ralphm
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0385.html
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rion
I guess I have to implement xep-0385 for Psi-2.0 and propose a change to the xep afterwards :)
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rion
let be so
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ralphm
I don't think adding a histogram requires changing XEP-0385. That said, the specification should be worked out a bit better.
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rion
"Table 2: Mandated encoding and in-line display support." -> Format/Container -> mpeg4 Hm I implemented my voice messages with Matroska..
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Ge0rG
You can also add inline image thumbnails. There is https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0264.html and I think some other spec
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ralphm
Yeah, the reference to that is missing, but the example shows that spec used for thumbnails.
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ralphm
rion: the reason for this is extensive OS support in mobile
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rion
I see
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ralphm
Then again, this spec is a work in progress (please provide feedback) and it says "SHOULD".
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rion
anyway I'll try to change that.
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lovetox
what was the intention on putting the timezone in another tag
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lovetox
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0202.html#protocol
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lovetox
to use this xep you need a dateTime profile parser
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lovetox
if you have that parser you can handle all timezones already
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lovetox
in the dateTime profile string
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lovetox
why put it into another tag
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lovetox
just so it gets harder to parse?
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lovetox
additionally it adds confusen
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lovetox
because first instinct of any sane person is that i dont end the utc timestamp with a Z
-
lovetox
because its in a <utc> tag
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lovetox
it redundant
-
lovetox
but then the xep says it MUST be conform to the dateTime profile, and the dateTime profile says it is mandatory to have a timezone
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Zash
I think there was a reason but I'm not sure I remember it well enough to describe it
-
lovetox
Then you end up with situations like <time xmlns='urn:xmpp:time'> <tzo>Z</tzo> <utc>2006-12-19T17:58:35Z</utc> </time>
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Zash
Fun fact: Prosodys timestamp lib doesn't preserve the timezone from the timestamp.
-
Zash
Nor can it generate timestamps with anything but Z as timezone
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lovetox
what do you mean with preserve
-
lovetox
what is the source?
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lovetox
i hope you dont mean it alters the timestamp the users sends
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Zash
I think the reason for the separate tags was something like the timestamp being just a timestamp and the timezone in it doesn't mean anything
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Zash
Prosody doesn't touch urn:xmpp:time
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lovetox
then what time does it not preserve, in what situation does prosody need to generate a timestamp with a timezone?
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Zash
How do you search for previous discussions on this topic when every page like http://logs.xmpp.org/summit/2013-01-28/ has "show time in local time, rather than in UTC"
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lovetox
the only reason i see for this is, so a client does not have to calculate UTC
-
lovetox
but then again he has to calculate local time instead
-
lovetox
..
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lovetox
you need all your datetime lib stuff to use this xep
-
lovetox
showing the utc+tz to the user seems useless
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lovetox
so you have to calculate it to the localtime of the contact
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Zash
lovetox: how about https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/peptzo.html
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lovetox
thats most of the time the point, where you depend on a thirdparty lib, because datetime stuff is just crazy
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Zash
if parsing the timestamp gives you an integer, then you want to offset separate
-
daniel
> lovetox: how about https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/peptzo.html Oh that's actually cool
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lovetox
this is rightfully never advanced
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lovetox
i dont see the use for this at all
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lovetox
should i really subscribe to that, then i get it on each connect from all of my contacts
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daniel
Because people ask me to display the time zone of a contact - which I get because you want to know if your buddy slash coworker is awake
-
daniel
But doing the IQ request you have to update that again and again
-
lovetox
and entity time does provide it since 10 years
-
lovetox
how often do you change timezones?
-
lovetox
that you need live updates on it the second it happens
-
daniel
You don't know. That's the point
-
daniel
You don't know how often you need to update it
-
lovetox
thats not a reason why i want constantly updates
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lovetox
99% useless
-
lovetox
show the timezone in the details page, and do a query if someone access it
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lovetox
does the job fine
-
daniel
I imagine a UI where it warns you a bit more prominently if the time zone a) diverges a lot from yours and b) it is night time at your contacts
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daniel
Can only be a small icon
-
daniel
But I don't want to hide it in an extra page
-
daniel
Like turn the send button into a some sort of 😴 symbol
-
daniel
Something not intrusive
-
lovetox
i think there will be a point in the future where we have to cut back on these subscriptions
-
daniel
But I nice nudge not to annoy your international fiends
-
SamWhited
That is the feature I miss most about Google Talk; it had the little red phone icon when people were likely to be asleep.
-
daniel
> i think there will be a point in the future where we have to cut back on these subscriptions Yes. But that is independent of that
-
SamWhited
It was fantastic when traveling
-
Zash
Receiving the same updates over and over is a problem in itself that we'll probably want to fix at some point
-
lovetox
of course notification is always better than poll
-
Zash
Eg look at "pubsub since" and the like
-
daniel
Those omemo keys make more traffic than a little tzo
-
daniel
And yes that is something we at some point need to think about
-
lovetox
i also get a little, mood, activity, location, usernickname, useravatar
-
Zash
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0312.html
-
daniel
But that doesn't excuse switching to poll
-
Zash
Not sure I like relative time tho
-
lovetox
but how do you want to tacle that
-
lovetox
it would mean clients have to store the state localy over restarts
-
lovetox
if the server only sends new stuff
-
daniel
I'm already doing that for a lot of things
-
daniel
Avatar, omemo device ids
-
lovetox
yes, although, for device ids only because of bad server implementations
-
daniel
Yes and the avater for the Same reason
-
daniel
But the point is that storing ain't no rocket science
-
lovetox
really? avatar has to be cached because otherwise it would be a waste
-
lovetox
its a different node we have to poll
-
lovetox
and we save that when we cache
-
lovetox
yes im not saying storing that info is bad, of course its not hard
-
lovetox
but then we would need some switch, that says, give me from all of my clients the current state
-
lovetox
when im losing this store
-
lovetox
*contacts not clients
-
daniel
Yeah I might revitalize the tzo pep xeo
-
daniel
*xep
-
daniel
I mean as you've guess from my elaborate explanation I have the UI all worked out
-
daniel
Just the poll problem bothered me
-
Zash
I don't have any state: <presence><{caps}c .../></p> I have cached state from 1h ago: <presence><{caps}c .../><ago xmlns='urn:xmpp:ago:0' secs='86400'/></p>
-
Zash
But as I said, I don't like relative times like that
-
Zash
Not that exact timestamps are perfect either
-
Zash
Something that identifies the last id of every pubsub event you've seen wouldn't really work either
-
Zash
However, MattJs magic device tracking might save us?
-
MattJ
As always
-
ralphm
One thing I like about Slack is when you do an @channel it says how many people in how many timezones will get a notification. Are you sure?
-
Zash
Does it? Haven't noticed
-
edhelas
Can someone enlighten me on this comment? https://github.com/movim/movim/issues/711#issuecomment-418456713
-
edhelas
To me it seems that the XMPP MUC services are filtering content of presences, is my assumption right?
-
Zash
MUC should filter out MUC-related namespaces that it didn't add itself. Caps and stuff should not be touched.
-
Link Mauve
rion, oh, I missed this table in SIMS, mandating AAC and H.264 in XMPP sets a very nasty precedent wrt patents.
-
Link Mauve
It means you can’t support that without paying the MPEG-LA.
-
Link Mauve
I’d like XMPP to stay possible to implement without having to pay anything.
-
rion
and I'm fighting all the evening to write aac from Qt. no luck.. :(
-
Link Mauve
Opus is definitely superior, both in quality of compression and because it doesn’t require you to be subject to patents.
-
Link Mauve
I’d recommend using this codec.
-
rion
opus works for me. but still in mp4 container?
-
Link Mauve
Ogg is generally used for it.
-
rion
good. I like opus. I use it for audio calls in Psi.
-
Link Mauve
Yeah, it’s the current best codec for voice.
-
rion
so if it will be used for audio messages. then I need less binaries =)
-
rion
So I guess opus has to be mentioned in 385
-
Link Mauve
rion, do you implement the various WebRTC mandatory specifications for audio calls? I’m currently working on Jingle in another client and I’d like to do interoperability tests.
-
Link Mauve
rion, yes, you can start a discussion on standards@ maybe.
-
rion
Link Mauve: it's jingle in Psi.
-
Link Mauve
Having a codec which is patent-encumbered in most parts of the world in a XEP is a very bad idea.
-
Link Mauve
rion, I know, but do you also implement e.g. XEP-0339, XEP-0338, XEP-0294, etc.?
-
Link Mauve
XEP-0320 is also pretty important.
-
rion
I'd like to. I do my bests but my spare time is quite limited :(
-
Link Mauve
Ok.
-
Link Mauve
Do you support ICE btw?
-
rion
yes
-
Link Mauve
Nice.
-
rion
Audio calls in Psi was initially implemented by Justin Kerneges. I did just a few changes to ICE and rewrote media library to be compatible with gstreamer-1.0. That was many years ago. So many new audio calls related xeps are not supported.
-
Link Mauve
Ok, makes sense.
-
Link Mauve
I’ve had to learn a bunch of that recently for this project, so if you ever come around to implement them you can ask me anything you don’t understand.
-
rion
Link Mauve: thanks