XSF Discussion - 2018-11-29

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  125. Seve Ge0rG, do you have somewhere where I could link to the new yaxim version?
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  136. Ge0rG Seve: yax.im/apk
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  140. Seve Ge0rG, 0.9.3 is it, right?
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  145. Ge0rG Seve: that Version is also on Google and f-droid
  146. Ge0rG The link is to latest nightly
  147. Seve Ge0rG, just talking about the newsletter
  148. Seve what should I link to?
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  154. Ge0rG Seve: Google play, unless I manage to write a blog post until tomorrow
  155. Seve ok Ge0rG :)
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  160. Ge0rG Seve: I suppose the download links can go in anyway: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.yaxim.androidclient and https://f-droid.org/packages/org.yaxim.androidclient/ for the cryptowh^H^Hnerds
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  293. daniel Is anyone working on either open source server side MIX implementations or willing to give me (and potentially other client developers) access to a (closed source) server that has MIX?
  294. Kev As soon as we've got something sharable, I'd be happy to run up something pokable on the 'net, but we haven't at the moment.
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  296. daniel Thanks. That could really help out with the chicken and egg problem the open source jabber community has with MIX
  297. Kev Indeed.
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  309. jonas’ did new board agree on a meeting time, by the way?
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  312. ralphm No, I informed them it is today at 15:30 CET.
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  346. daniel has anyone ever looked into compiling xep into mobi/epub
  347. daniel not kidding. but MIX is long enough that reading it on my kindle would be kinda cool
  348. Ge0rG IIRC Zash had some ideas around that, but nothing finished.
  349. Zash I have
  350. Zash Finished to the point of "works for me"
  351. Ge0rG As finished as the color-coded XEP diff txt renderer?
  352. Zash Would be neat to get that into the build process, along with PDF generation and whatnot
  353. Ge0rG 👍
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  355. Zash Ge0rG: diffs are related but slightly different
  356. Ge0rG But with the XEP build process fetching a new machine image each time, it would delay things even more.
  357. ralphm There's already PDF generation, no?
  358. Ge0rG ralphm: PDF is the worst source for epub/mobi
  359. daniel Zash, care to share your xep to epub scripts?
  360. daniel can mobi/epub switch to monospace?
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  363. daniel i have never looked into the format
  364. Ge0rG AFAIU mobi/epub is a kind of XHTML subset.
  365. Zash epub is a zip file with html in it
  366. Zash The stuff I have produces markdown and then uses pandoc to build epubs from that
  367. Ge0rG https://stackoverflow.com/a/21626850/539443 for html->epub with pandoc
  368. Ge0rG calibre is probably a rather heavy dependency
  369. daniel yeah but i need that anyway for the mobi conversion
  370. daniel or at least i have not figured out another way to feed my kindle
  371. Ge0rG daniel: but it might be bad to include it into the official build system
  372. daniel tipps are welcome though
  373. Ge0rG pandoc is slim in comparison
  374. Zash You could try `pandoc xep-xxxx.html -o xep-xxxx.epub`
  375. daniel i guess i'll try that
  376. Zash daniel: https://gist.github.com/Zash/372591d4c61b6af70d810a78bd1af12d
  377. Zash There's the xep -> markdown thing
  378. Ge0rG pandoc: Prelude.read: no parse
  379. Zash and then `pandoc xep-blah.md -o xep-blah.epub`
  380. Zash input needs to have its entities expanded, so https://gist.github.com/Zash/372591d4c61b6af70d810a78bd1af12d#file-xep2md-sh
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  385. Ge0rG daniel: `ebook-convert build/xep-0045.html build/xep-0045.epub` WFM
  386. Link Mauve “14:10:54 Zash> epub is a zip file with html in it”, s/html/xhtml/, and a bunch of metadata files, in a specific directory structure.
  387. Zash Sure
  388. Ge0rG https://upload.yax.im/upload/zbeZLsvL8FuA2rNA/Screenshot_20181129-141906_FBReader.jpg
  389. Zash Link Mauve: Except I've managed to produce unbalanced tags and my eink thing still showed it (horribly messed up, but still)
  390. Ge0rG it even has nifty titles
  391. Zash Pretty
  392. Ge0rG (btw, does the OOB in my screenshot work for Conversations?)
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  395. daniel oh indeed it works reasonably well
  396. Zash daniel: You might even be able to just dump the html files onto the device and have it work
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  398. Ge0rG my ebook reader has a horrible html reader (it's using continuous scrolling on e-paper)
  399. Zash ew
  400. daniel yeah at least my calibre which i need anyway. will take html files directly
  401. Ge0rG but it's the only way to render the 110GB+ of offline wikipedias I have
  402. daniel https://share.gultsch.de/daniel/RyGBwEl1OMN8SAin/rJG-_bTCTo-zf9nSzcInLA.jpg
  403. daniel Ge0rG: the oob in your Screenshot doesn't work at all
  404. daniel if you give me the stanza i can take a look at it
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  406. Ge0rG <message from="xsf@muc.xmpp.org/Ge0rG" id="0wTCJ-8706" type="groupchat" to="georg@yax.im/poezio-IS8H"><body>https://upload.yax.im/upload/zbeZLsvL8FuA2rNA/Screenshot_20181129-141906_FBReader.jpg</body><x xmlns="jabber❌oob" url="https://upload.yax.im/upload/zbeZLsvL8FuA2rNA/Screenshot_20181129-141906_FBReader.jpg" /></message>
  407. Ge0rG just figured out it's @url instead of <url>
  408. Ge0rG I messed up the Oob.java when porting from smack3 to smack4
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  411. Ge0rG what I don't understand is why it can interpret the wrong tag correctly
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  415. Zash https://cerdale.zash.se/upload/yJNDBPRli6rRIacj/Z0dyALtQTdOr1y3wm66s_w.jpg
  416. daniel Zash: is this straight conversion or via your markdown thing?
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  419. Zash Ge0rG, daniel: How does it handle tables and examples?
  420. Zash daniel: via the markdown thing
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  422. Ge0rG Zash: dunno
  423. Zash .
  424. Zash L A G
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  449. dwd Does anyone happen to know if anyone's reverse-engineered WhatsApp recently?
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  454. daniel dwd: to you have reason to believe they changed it?
  455. dwd No... I suppose "recently" doesn't really matter.
  456. daniel Well the so called funxmpp is decently documented as far as I know
  457. daniel And WhatsApp transports / pidgin plugins used to work okish
  458. Link Mauve Aren’t they using the web API instead of talking the protocol itself?
  459. Link Mauve The web API which connects to your phone.
  460. Link Mauve Which is AFAIK how they implement multi-resources.
  461. Zash Including multi-resource E2EE?
  462. Link Mauve AFAIK it’s decrypted on your phone, then sent to your browser somehow.
  463. Kev E2SITME
  464. Kev End to Somewhere In The Middle Encryption :)
  465. daniel Link Mauve: I think there are/were transports that would talk directly to wa
  466. Link Mauve I may be wrong then.
  467. daniel Without the requirement to run it on your phone
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  469. Link Mauve The requirement was that your phone had to be on.
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  474. MattJ They are pretty aggressive at banning anyone who uses unofficial clients afaik
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  477. ralphm set the topic to XSF Board Meeting | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  478. ralphm bangs gavel
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  480. ralphm 0. Welcome + Agenda
  481. ralphm Who do we have?
  482. ralphm Seve, nyco, MattJ, Guus
  483. Seve Seve is here :)
  484. MattJ o/
  485. nyco hey
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  487. ralphm Guus sent regrets
  488. ralphm So we can start
  489. ralphm My first point would be electing our Chair
  490. dwd I, too, am here. Not entirely sure if I am Council Chair, technically, at the moment though. :-)
  491. ralphm Thank you dwd
  492. Guus did I sent regrets?
  493. Guus I'm pretty sure I did not 🙂
  494. ralphm oh, hah, I messed up
  495. dwd Guus, If so, do you regret it now?
  496. ralphm It was a mail from June :-D
  497. Guus Thank you for promptly processing my mail 🙂
  498. ralphm Full house. Great
  499. ralphm Guus: I still have unreads from 2016
  500. ralphm 1. Election of the Chair of the Board
  501. nyco technically, it is thus not wrong, Guus sent regrets, just not for this meeting
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  503. ralphm For this we need nominations and then votes
  504. ralphm :crickets:
  505. dwd I'm assuming self-nominations are fine, if people want to volunteer?
  506. ralphm I'd be happy to continue.
  507. MattJ Well, without an idea of who wants to be nominated, it's a bit awkward :)
  508. MattJ I'd be happy for ralphm to continue
  509. Guus +1
  510. Seve Me as well, +1 for ralphm :) And also thanks for volunteering
  511. nyco +1
  512. ralphm Thank you!
  513. dwd Well, this is a bit boring. :-)
  514. ralphm dwd: you can always cast an invalid vote
  515. dwd -1! I VETO!!!
  516. Guus chair, I think an invalid vote was just cast.
  517. ralphm Let the records show that the Board has elected Ralph Meijer as Chair of the Board for the 2018/2019 term.
  518. ralphm Speaking of which:
  519. ralphm 2. Minutes
  520. MattJ Heh
  521. Guus I do nominate dwd, since we're in the process of nominating people anyways... 🙂
  522. ralphm Last term, we had a hard time getting minutes consistently. I'd like to ask for a volunteer to create minutes for all meetings.
  523. ralphm Guus: I second that
  524. nyco I raise this: it would be nice to edit collaboratively and in real-time our notes while we have the meeting thus at the end, it is just a matter of finalising (typo, punctuation, etc) and send to ML
  525. nyco it works if not only one person types
  526. nyco it is hareder when 5 people type
  527. nyco it is harder when 5 people type
  528. MattJ I wouldn't be opposed to that
  529. dwd I'm doubtful I can reliably do minutes, but I can volunteer from time to time.
  530. ralphm I'd prefer it not be a Director
  531. Guus nyco, I don't quite like that. To many open tabs as it is, for my taste.
  532. Guus I'll not oppose, but am unlikely to contribute during the meeting.
  533. nyco then don't open tabe, just windows sitting side by side
  534. dwd I can knock some out for this meeting, though, and see how it goes.
  535. nyco then don't open tabs, just windows sitting side by side
  536. ralphm dwd: thank you
  537. Seve Is there something wrong on going through the history and write the minutes after that? Sounds easier to me.
  538. ralphm From what I understand, this is harder than following along in real time, oddly.
  539. dwd Seve, It is possible, but personally I find it much harder - it's useful to be able to ask clarifying quesitons during the meeting.
  540. nyco Seve then one person has to re-process the whole meeting, it is quite boring, consumes time
  541. ralphm Anyway, let's take up dwd's offer and see how that works out.
  542. Guus wfm
  543. Seve Thanks dwd :)
  544. nyco thx @dwd
  545. ralphm 3. Elections of Secretary, Treasurer, Executive Director
  546. ralphm For the Secretary and Treasurer, I'd like to ask the current Officers if they'd like to continue in their role.
  547. ralphm I will send out e-mails for that.
  548. Guus +1
  549. MattJ +1, thanks ralphm
  550. nyco +1
  551. Seve +1
  552. nyco and ED?
  553. MattJ nyco, ssshhh
  554. ralphm For Executive Director, the previous Board has had some on and off discussions on this. Guus and I have been planning to talk to Peter Saint-Andre to see what we could do here, since he resigned from this office over a year ago.
  555. MattJ ralphm, did he actually resign? or say he intended to?
  556. Guus MattJ, we'll need handle him leaving regardless.
  557. Guus Ralph, let's pick two or three dates for Peter to agree with
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  562. ralphm Peter resigned on 8 March 2017, in an e-mail to the Board.
  563. ralphm I'm not sure if there's an effective date, explicitly, but we assumed the end of the Board term of 2016/2017.
  564. Guus (date for our meeting, I ment)
  565. ralphm Guus: sure
  566. ralphm 4. AOB
  567. ralphm ?
  568. Guus Seve, can you write a short bio please?
  569. Guus we'll need to replace Martin's on the website
  570. ralphm Guus: good point
  571. nyco no OB for me
  572. Seve Guus, right
  573. nyco oh wait, yes
  574. nyco what time and date fro each meeting?
  575. nyco frequency
  576. nyco what time and date for each meeting?
  577. ralphm I suggest keeping the weekly rhythm and time.
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  580. nyco +1
  581. ralphm If anyone is ok with this timeslot.
  582. ralphm everyone even
  583. Guus works for me, but Seve is new here 🙂
  584. Seve It is ok for me, thanks Guus :)
  585. Guus great
  586. ralphm MattJ, too?
  587. MattJ Yep, it's fine for me
  588. ralphm Splendid.
  589. ralphm 6. Date of Next ^
  590. ralphm 7. Close
  591. ralphm Thank you all. I look forward to working with you this term.
  592. nyco thx all
  593. Seve Me too, thank you very much!
  594. MattJ Thanks, and welcome again Seve, glad to have you aboard :)
  595. jonas’ pun intended?
  596. ralphm Indeed!
  597. Guus Ralph: for our meeting with Peter, every Monday and Friday evening > 7 our time, is fine with me, with the exception of December 10th.
  598. jonas’ :)
  599. nyco welcome on "board", Seve! 😉
  600. ralphm bangs gavel
  601. jonas’ Guus, what about december 24th?
  602. ralphm set the topic to XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  603. ralphm Guus: yeah, I think that works for me too
  604. Guus jonas', I intend to spend all of the holidays sitting idle in a virtual XSF board meeting room, yes.
  605. Seve Thank you everybody :D! Happy to be part of the board!
  606. jonas’ Guus, oh, okay :)
  607. Guus ralphm, could you ask Peter if that works for him?
  608. Guus Good to have you, Seve!
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  611. ralphm Guus: just sent out the e-mail
  612. ralphm Seve can you verify you got it?
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  614. ralphm I'm sure Kev or intosi can you help you out in case of trouble.
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  616. Seve I didn't, something I need to figure out with iteam, yes
  617. MattJ Sorry, I'd look but I don't have access to the mail server
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  621. daniel re: epub - those tables in MIX unsurprisingly don’t render very well
  622. daniel just not enough horizontal screen
  623. daniel but everything else is ok
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  625. Guus ralphm could you also give Seve access to the Trello board?
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  629. Neustradamus Seve: https://github.com/stpeter/jabberdotorg/issues/5 + previous ^^
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  633. Guus nyco maybe you want to update your bio too
  634. Guus it still has you listed Mongoose Product Owner, you're no longer, are you?
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  638. Neustradamus It is possible to see for an update of https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/infrastructure-team? - There is not : Data backups (provided by ASET at Penn State University) - Digital certificates is now Let's Encrypt - Source control (Subversion and various products donated by Atlassian) <-- dead since a long time: tracker.xmpp.org... and now github - Web server and associated software (lighttpd, MySQL, WordPress, MediaWiki) <-- WordPress has been removed... Thanks in advance.
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  641. Guus Neustradamus, please provide a pull request
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  666. daniel btw Link Mauve I've looked into sending out a xhtml-im render of of message styling in addition to the message styling itself at least for plain text messages. not that i’m a huge fan but I thought it doesn’t hurt right. but it doesn’t do strike through text
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  668. daniel any solution for that?
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  670. Link Mauve daniel, hmm, IIRC there is support for text-decoration.
  671. Link Mauve Someone also suggested adding support for <del/> in the recommended profile.
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  673. daniel i would prefer to avoid having to generate css
  674. jonas’ and I would prefer to avoid having to process CSS
  675. jonas’ I think ``<del/>`` would be an okay choice
  676. daniel also it seems there is font-weight and <strong>
  677. Link Mauve You could consider <span style="text-decoration: line-through"/> as a single element maybe?
  678. daniel it feels like xhtml-im is a very weird mix of styling and context information
  679. SamWhited We could also get rid of strike through in styling; I just added it because Whatsapp or something had it, but I don't see it as necessary.
  680. Link Mauve SamWhited, there is no reason for that, I’m sure some people now rely on it.
  681. daniel what is the recommended approach for rendering <strong style="font-weight: normal;">
  682. jonas’ daniel, "normal"
  683. daniel will it look differnt depending on what client you use it with?
  684. jonas’ @style trumps element style
  685. ralphm Slack has strike through.
  686. jonas’ by normal XHTML/CSS rules
  687. daniel since css is not mandetory to implement
  688. jonas’ then it’ll render differently in each client :)
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  693. Link Mauve Well, @style is marked REQUIRED in the recommended attributes.
  694. Link Mauve The rest, NOT RECOMMENDED.
  695. daniel So I have to implemt css?
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  697. Link Mauve Uh, table 8 says that <strong/> and <em/> don’t take @style or any other attribute.
  698. daniel i feel like last time we talked about it someone said i don’t have to implement css
  699. Link Mauve This would contradict jonas’.
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  717. ralphm Well, first of all, while implementing the style attribute is REQUIRED, the styles to support are RECOMMENDED. I suggest that supporting no styles is still compliant.
  718. ralphm (there's also prose in 7.6 to suggest this)
  719. ralphm Further, the entire specification is NOT RECOMMENDED to implement given its deprecation.
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  727. daniel Yeah I don't know. I was just trying to make message styling work for clients that don't like message styling
  728. Zash ralphm: Can it be un-deprecated?
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  730. ralphm There's no defined process for that
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  732. Zash The underlying problem was not solved by deprecating beacuse it resides in the availability of rendering engines with way too much attack surface.
  733. Zash And the lack of sufficiently advanced rendering engines that aren't also javascript and css engines
  734. Zash And message styling looks too much like Markdown that people just throw it at their markdown parsers which happily pass raw HTML right through and we're back at square one.
  735. Yagiza I can easily implement XEP-394 instead of XHTML-IM in my client once it will be usable. The idea of XEP-0394 is really good. But current implementation is so awful, I don want even try to implement right now.
  736. daniel well message styling is simple enough that people can at least attempt to write their own parsers
  737. Link Mauve Zash, both 0393 and Markdown are fine as input formats, even with HTML stuff.
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  740. Zash The problem isn't the input format, the problem is doing anything and throwing it into a full blown HTML+CSS+JS environment
  741. jonas’ ralphm, speaking of process, reminding board about https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/719
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  744. Link Mauve Zash, indeed, but that’ll happen no matter the wire format.
  745. rion sometimes on 1st April I send a css injection to a muc which turns chatlog up side down. I don't want to fix this "bug" because it's funny =))
  746. ralphm That was approved last week!
  747. Link Mauve rion, :D
  748. Zash rion: Can't you do that with some magic Unicode marker too? :)
  749. jonas’ ralphm, no minutes from last week :(
  750. Zash https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/rtl.png
  751. ralphm Hmm
  752. rion Zash: I think it's possible with anything. html5 is cool =)
  753. jonas’ ralphm, hm, I don’t think it passed, really
  754. jonas’ the last thing I saw from Guus about that during the meeting was more a "I wanna ask Peter first"
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  757. ralphm You are right. I'll pick it up for next week
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  776. Zash Why does "cla-assistant" need write access to my everythings?
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  779. Zash aaaaaaaaand that's enough web for today
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  806. daniel Mhhh now I need a thing to export the notes I made on my ebook reader to the mailing list
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  944. pep. https://2019.copyleftconf.org/ right after fosdem if people are interested
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  956. Zash who where
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  960. pep. Brussels
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  963. pep. I'd like to go, I'll start planning in a few days
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  969. edhelas https://twitter.com/musalbas/status/1068179464197156864
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