XSF Discussion - 2018-11-29

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  125. Seve

    Ge0rG, do you have somewhere where I could link to the new yaxim version?

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  136. Ge0rG

    Seve: yax.im/apk

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  140. Seve

    Ge0rG, 0.9.3 is it, right?

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  145. Ge0rG

    Seve: that Version is also on Google and f-droid

  146. Ge0rG

    The link is to latest nightly

  147. Seve

    Ge0rG, just talking about the newsletter

  148. Seve

    what should I link to?

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  154. Ge0rG

    Seve: Google play, unless I manage to write a blog post until tomorrow

  155. Seve

    ok Ge0rG :)

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  160. Ge0rG

    Seve: I suppose the download links can go in anyway: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.yaxim.androidclient and https://f-droid.org/packages/org.yaxim.androidclient/ for the cryptowh^H^Hnerds

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  293. daniel

    Is anyone working on either open source server side MIX implementations or willing to give me (and potentially other client developers) access to a (closed source) server that has MIX?

  294. Kev

    As soon as we've got something sharable, I'd be happy to run up something pokable on the 'net, but we haven't at the moment.

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  296. daniel

    Thanks. That could really help out with the chicken and egg problem the open source jabber community has with MIX

  297. Kev


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  309. jonas’

    did new board agree on a meeting time, by the way?

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  312. ralphm

    No, I informed them it is today at 15:30 CET.

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  346. daniel

    has anyone ever looked into compiling xep into mobi/epub

  347. daniel

    not kidding. but MIX is long enough that reading it on my kindle would be kinda cool

  348. Ge0rG

    IIRC Zash had some ideas around that, but nothing finished.

  349. Zash

    I have

  350. Zash

    Finished to the point of "works for me"

  351. Ge0rG

    As finished as the color-coded XEP diff txt renderer?

  352. Zash

    Would be neat to get that into the build process, along with PDF generation and whatnot

  353. Ge0rG


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  355. Zash

    Ge0rG: diffs are related but slightly different

  356. Ge0rG

    But with the XEP build process fetching a new machine image each time, it would delay things even more.

  357. ralphm

    There's already PDF generation, no?

  358. Ge0rG

    ralphm: PDF is the worst source for epub/mobi

  359. daniel

    Zash, care to share your xep to epub scripts?

  360. daniel

    can mobi/epub switch to monospace?

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  363. daniel

    i have never looked into the format

  364. Ge0rG

    AFAIU mobi/epub is a kind of XHTML subset.

  365. Zash

    epub is a zip file with html in it

  366. Zash

    The stuff I have produces markdown and then uses pandoc to build epubs from that

  367. Ge0rG

    https://stackoverflow.com/a/21626850/539443 for html->epub with pandoc

  368. Ge0rG

    calibre is probably a rather heavy dependency

  369. daniel

    yeah but i need that anyway for the mobi conversion

  370. daniel

    or at least i have not figured out another way to feed my kindle

  371. Ge0rG

    daniel: but it might be bad to include it into the official build system

  372. daniel

    tipps are welcome though

  373. Ge0rG

    pandoc is slim in comparison

  374. Zash

    You could try `pandoc xep-xxxx.html -o xep-xxxx.epub`

  375. daniel

    i guess i'll try that

  376. Zash

    daniel: https://gist.github.com/Zash/372591d4c61b6af70d810a78bd1af12d

  377. Zash

    There's the xep -> markdown thing

  378. Ge0rG

    pandoc: Prelude.read: no parse

  379. Zash

    and then `pandoc xep-blah.md -o xep-blah.epub`

  380. Zash

    input needs to have its entities expanded, so https://gist.github.com/Zash/372591d4c61b6af70d810a78bd1af12d#file-xep2md-sh

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  385. Ge0rG

    daniel: `ebook-convert build/xep-0045.html build/xep-0045.epub` WFM

  386. Link Mauve

    “14:10:54 Zash> epub is a zip file with html in it”, s/html/xhtml/, and a bunch of metadata files, in a specific directory structure.

  387. Zash


  388. Ge0rG


  389. Zash

    Link Mauve: Except I've managed to produce unbalanced tags and my eink thing still showed it (horribly messed up, but still)

  390. Ge0rG

    it even has nifty titles

  391. Zash


  392. Ge0rG

    (btw, does the OOB in my screenshot work for Conversations?)

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  395. daniel

    oh indeed it works reasonably well

  396. Zash

    daniel: You might even be able to just dump the html files onto the device and have it work

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  398. Ge0rG

    my ebook reader has a horrible html reader (it's using continuous scrolling on e-paper)

  399. Zash


  400. daniel

    yeah at least my calibre which i need anyway. will take html files directly

  401. Ge0rG

    but it's the only way to render the 110GB+ of offline wikipedias I have

  402. daniel


  403. daniel

    Ge0rG: the oob in your Screenshot doesn't work at all

  404. daniel

    if you give me the stanza i can take a look at it

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  406. Ge0rG

    <message from="xsf@muc.xmpp.org/Ge0rG" id="0wTCJ-8706" type="groupchat" to="georg@yax.im/poezio-IS8H"><body>https://upload.yax.im/upload/zbeZLsvL8FuA2rNA/Screenshot_20181129-141906_FBReader.jpg</body><x xmlns="jabber❌oob" url="https://upload.yax.im/upload/zbeZLsvL8FuA2rNA/Screenshot_20181129-141906_FBReader.jpg" /></message>

  407. Ge0rG

    just figured out it's @url instead of <url>

  408. Ge0rG

    I messed up the Oob.java when porting from smack3 to smack4

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  411. Ge0rG

    what I don't understand is why it can interpret the wrong tag correctly

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  415. Zash


  416. daniel

    Zash: is this straight conversion or via your markdown thing?

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  419. Zash

    Ge0rG, daniel: How does it handle tables and examples?

  420. Zash

    daniel: via the markdown thing

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  422. Ge0rG

    Zash: dunno

  423. Zash


  424. Zash

    L A G

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  449. dwd

    Does anyone happen to know if anyone's reverse-engineered WhatsApp recently?

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  454. daniel

    dwd: to you have reason to believe they changed it?

  455. dwd

    No... I suppose "recently" doesn't really matter.

  456. daniel

    Well the so called funxmpp is decently documented as far as I know

  457. daniel

    And WhatsApp transports / pidgin plugins used to work okish

  458. Link Mauve

    Aren’t they using the web API instead of talking the protocol itself?

  459. Link Mauve

    The web API which connects to your phone.

  460. Link Mauve

    Which is AFAIK how they implement multi-resources.

  461. Zash

    Including multi-resource E2EE?

  462. Link Mauve

    AFAIK it’s decrypted on your phone, then sent to your browser somehow.

  463. Kev


  464. Kev

    End to Somewhere In The Middle Encryption :)

  465. daniel

    Link Mauve: I think there are/were transports that would talk directly to wa

  466. Link Mauve

    I may be wrong then.

  467. daniel

    Without the requirement to run it on your phone

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  469. Link Mauve

    The requirement was that your phone had to be on.

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  474. MattJ

    They are pretty aggressive at banning anyone who uses unofficial clients afaik

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  477. ralphm set the topic to

    XSF Board Meeting | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  478. ralphm bangs gavel

  479. j.r has joined

  480. ralphm

    0. Welcome + Agenda

  481. ralphm

    Who do we have?

  482. ralphm

    Seve, nyco, MattJ, Guus

  483. Seve

    Seve is here :)

  484. MattJ


  485. nyco


  486. efrit has left

  487. ralphm

    Guus sent regrets

  488. ralphm

    So we can start

  489. ralphm

    My first point would be electing our Chair

  490. dwd

    I, too, am here. Not entirely sure if I am Council Chair, technically, at the moment though. :-)

  491. ralphm

    Thank you dwd

  492. Guus

    did I sent regrets?

  493. Guus

    I'm pretty sure I did not 🙂

  494. ralphm

    oh, hah, I messed up

  495. dwd

    Guus, If so, do you regret it now?

  496. ralphm

    It was a mail from June :-D

  497. Guus

    Thank you for promptly processing my mail 🙂

  498. ralphm

    Full house. Great

  499. ralphm

    Guus: I still have unreads from 2016

  500. ralphm

    1. Election of the Chair of the Board

  501. nyco

    technically, it is thus not wrong, Guus sent regrets, just not for this meeting

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  503. ralphm

    For this we need nominations and then votes

  504. ralphm


  505. dwd

    I'm assuming self-nominations are fine, if people want to volunteer?

  506. ralphm

    I'd be happy to continue.

  507. MattJ

    Well, without an idea of who wants to be nominated, it's a bit awkward :)

  508. MattJ

    I'd be happy for ralphm to continue

  509. Guus


  510. Seve

    Me as well, +1 for ralphm :) And also thanks for volunteering

  511. nyco


  512. ralphm

    Thank you!

  513. dwd

    Well, this is a bit boring. :-)

  514. ralphm

    dwd: you can always cast an invalid vote

  515. dwd

    -1! I VETO!!!

  516. Guus

    chair, I think an invalid vote was just cast.

  517. ralphm

    Let the records show that the Board has elected Ralph Meijer as Chair of the Board for the 2018/2019 term.

  518. ralphm

    Speaking of which:

  519. ralphm

    2. Minutes

  520. MattJ


  521. Guus

    I do nominate dwd, since we're in the process of nominating people anyways... 🙂

  522. ralphm

    Last term, we had a hard time getting minutes consistently. I'd like to ask for a volunteer to create minutes for all meetings.

  523. ralphm

    Guus: I second that

  524. nyco

    I raise this: it would be nice to edit collaboratively and in real-time our notes while we have the meeting thus at the end, it is just a matter of finalising (typo, punctuation, etc) and send to ML

  525. nyco

    it works if not only one person types

  526. nyco

    it is hareder when 5 people type

  527. nyco

    it is harder when 5 people type

  528. MattJ

    I wouldn't be opposed to that

  529. dwd

    I'm doubtful I can reliably do minutes, but I can volunteer from time to time.

  530. ralphm

    I'd prefer it not be a Director

  531. Guus

    nyco, I don't quite like that. To many open tabs as it is, for my taste.

  532. Guus

    I'll not oppose, but am unlikely to contribute during the meeting.

  533. nyco

    then don't open tabe, just windows sitting side by side

  534. dwd

    I can knock some out for this meeting, though, and see how it goes.

  535. nyco

    then don't open tabs, just windows sitting side by side

  536. ralphm

    dwd: thank you

  537. Seve

    Is there something wrong on going through the history and write the minutes after that? Sounds easier to me.

  538. ralphm

    From what I understand, this is harder than following along in real time, oddly.

  539. dwd

    Seve, It is possible, but personally I find it much harder - it's useful to be able to ask clarifying quesitons during the meeting.

  540. nyco

    Seve then one person has to re-process the whole meeting, it is quite boring, consumes time

  541. ralphm

    Anyway, let's take up dwd's offer and see how that works out.

  542. Guus


  543. Seve

    Thanks dwd :)

  544. nyco

    thx @dwd

  545. ralphm

    3. Elections of Secretary, Treasurer, Executive Director

  546. ralphm

    For the Secretary and Treasurer, I'd like to ask the current Officers if they'd like to continue in their role.

  547. ralphm

    I will send out e-mails for that.

  548. Guus


  549. MattJ

    +1, thanks ralphm

  550. nyco


  551. Seve


  552. nyco

    and ED?

  553. MattJ

    nyco, ssshhh

  554. ralphm

    For Executive Director, the previous Board has had some on and off discussions on this. Guus and I have been planning to talk to Peter Saint-Andre to see what we could do here, since he resigned from this office over a year ago.

  555. MattJ

    ralphm, did he actually resign? or say he intended to?

  556. Guus

    MattJ, we'll need handle him leaving regardless.

  557. Guus

    Ralph, let's pick two or three dates for Peter to agree with

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  562. ralphm

    Peter resigned on 8 March 2017, in an e-mail to the Board.

  563. ralphm

    I'm not sure if there's an effective date, explicitly, but we assumed the end of the Board term of 2016/2017.

  564. Guus

    (date for our meeting, I ment)

  565. ralphm

    Guus: sure

  566. ralphm

    4. AOB

  567. ralphm


  568. Guus

    Seve, can you write a short bio please?

  569. Guus

    we'll need to replace Martin's on the website

  570. ralphm

    Guus: good point

  571. nyco

    no OB for me

  572. Seve

    Guus, right

  573. nyco

    oh wait, yes

  574. nyco

    what time and date fro each meeting?

  575. nyco


  576. nyco

    what time and date for each meeting?

  577. ralphm

    I suggest keeping the weekly rhythm and time.

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  580. nyco


  581. ralphm

    If anyone is ok with this timeslot.

  582. ralphm

    everyone even

  583. Guus

    works for me, but Seve is new here 🙂

  584. Seve

    It is ok for me, thanks Guus :)

  585. Guus


  586. ralphm

    MattJ, too?

  587. MattJ

    Yep, it's fine for me

  588. ralphm


  589. ralphm

    6. Date of Next ^

  590. ralphm

    7. Close

  591. ralphm

    Thank you all. I look forward to working with you this term.

  592. nyco

    thx all

  593. Seve

    Me too, thank you very much!

  594. MattJ

    Thanks, and welcome again Seve, glad to have you aboard :)

  595. jonas’

    pun intended?

  596. ralphm


  597. Guus

    Ralph: for our meeting with Peter, every Monday and Friday evening > 7 our time, is fine with me, with the exception of December 10th.

  598. jonas’


  599. nyco

    welcome on "board", Seve! 😉

  600. ralphm bangs gavel

  601. jonas’

    Guus, what about december 24th?

  602. ralphm set the topic to

    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  603. ralphm

    Guus: yeah, I think that works for me too

  604. Guus

    jonas', I intend to spend all of the holidays sitting idle in a virtual XSF board meeting room, yes.

  605. Seve

    Thank you everybody :D! Happy to be part of the board!

  606. jonas’

    Guus, oh, okay :)

  607. Guus

    ralphm, could you ask Peter if that works for him?

  608. Guus

    Good to have you, Seve!

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  611. ralphm

    Guus: just sent out the e-mail

  612. ralphm

    Seve can you verify you got it?

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  614. ralphm

    I'm sure Kev or intosi can you help you out in case of trouble.

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  616. Seve

    I didn't, something I need to figure out with iteam, yes

  617. MattJ

    Sorry, I'd look but I don't have access to the mail server

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  621. daniel

    re: epub - those tables in MIX unsurprisingly don’t render very well

  622. daniel

    just not enough horizontal screen

  623. daniel

    but everything else is ok

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  625. Guus

    ralphm could you also give Seve access to the Trello board?

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  629. Neustradamus

    Seve: https://github.com/stpeter/jabberdotorg/issues/5 + previous ^^

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  633. Guus

    nyco maybe you want to update your bio too

  634. Guus

    it still has you listed Mongoose Product Owner, you're no longer, are you?

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  638. Neustradamus

    It is possible to see for an update of https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/infrastructure-team? - There is not : Data backups (provided by ASET at Penn State University) - Digital certificates is now Let's Encrypt - Source control (Subversion and various products donated by Atlassian) <-- dead since a long time: tracker.xmpp.org... and now github - Web server and associated software (lighttpd, MySQL, WordPress, MediaWiki) <-- WordPress has been removed... Thanks in advance.

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  641. Guus

    Neustradamus, please provide a pull request

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  666. daniel

    btw Link Mauve I've looked into sending out a xhtml-im render of of message styling in addition to the message styling itself at least for plain text messages. not that i’m a huge fan but I thought it doesn’t hurt right. but it doesn’t do strike through text

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  668. daniel

    any solution for that?

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  670. Link Mauve

    daniel, hmm, IIRC there is support for text-decoration.

  671. Link Mauve

    Someone also suggested adding support for <del/> in the recommended profile.

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  673. daniel

    i would prefer to avoid having to generate css

  674. jonas’

    and I would prefer to avoid having to process CSS

  675. jonas’

    I think ``<del/>`` would be an okay choice

  676. daniel

    also it seems there is font-weight and <strong>

  677. Link Mauve

    You could consider <span style="text-decoration: line-through"/> as a single element maybe?

  678. daniel

    it feels like xhtml-im is a very weird mix of styling and context information

  679. SamWhited

    We could also get rid of strike through in styling; I just added it because Whatsapp or something had it, but I don't see it as necessary.

  680. Link Mauve

    SamWhited, there is no reason for that, I’m sure some people now rely on it.

  681. daniel

    what is the recommended approach for rendering <strong style="font-weight: normal;">

  682. jonas’

    daniel, "normal"

  683. daniel

    will it look differnt depending on what client you use it with?

  684. jonas’

    @style trumps element style

  685. ralphm

    Slack has strike through.

  686. jonas’

    by normal XHTML/CSS rules

  687. daniel

    since css is not mandetory to implement

  688. jonas’

    then it’ll render differently in each client :)

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  693. Link Mauve

    Well, @style is marked REQUIRED in the recommended attributes.

  694. Link Mauve

    The rest, NOT RECOMMENDED.

  695. daniel

    So I have to implemt css?

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  697. Link Mauve

    Uh, table 8 says that <strong/> and <em/> don’t take @style or any other attribute.

  698. daniel

    i feel like last time we talked about it someone said i don’t have to implement css

  699. Link Mauve

    This would contradict jonas’.

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  717. ralphm

    Well, first of all, while implementing the style attribute is REQUIRED, the styles to support are RECOMMENDED. I suggest that supporting no styles is still compliant.

  718. ralphm

    (there's also prose in 7.6 to suggest this)

  719. ralphm

    Further, the entire specification is NOT RECOMMENDED to implement given its deprecation.

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  727. daniel

    Yeah I don't know. I was just trying to make message styling work for clients that don't like message styling

  728. Zash

    ralphm: Can it be un-deprecated?

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  730. ralphm

    There's no defined process for that

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  732. Zash

    The underlying problem was not solved by deprecating beacuse it resides in the availability of rendering engines with way too much attack surface.

  733. Zash

    And the lack of sufficiently advanced rendering engines that aren't also javascript and css engines

  734. Zash

    And message styling looks too much like Markdown that people just throw it at their markdown parsers which happily pass raw HTML right through and we're back at square one.

  735. Yagiza

    I can easily implement XEP-394 instead of XHTML-IM in my client once it will be usable. The idea of XEP-0394 is really good. But current implementation is so awful, I don want even try to implement right now.

  736. daniel

    well message styling is simple enough that people can at least attempt to write their own parsers

  737. Link Mauve

    Zash, both 0393 and Markdown are fine as input formats, even with HTML stuff.

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  740. Zash

    The problem isn't the input format, the problem is doing anything and throwing it into a full blown HTML+CSS+JS environment

  741. jonas’

    ralphm, speaking of process, reminding board about https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/719

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  744. Link Mauve

    Zash, indeed, but that’ll happen no matter the wire format.

  745. rion

    sometimes on 1st April I send a css injection to a muc which turns chatlog up side down. I don't want to fix this "bug" because it's funny =))

  746. ralphm

    That was approved last week!

  747. Link Mauve

    rion, :D

  748. Zash

    rion: Can't you do that with some magic Unicode marker too? :)

  749. jonas’

    ralphm, no minutes from last week :(

  750. Zash


  751. ralphm


  752. rion

    Zash: I think it's possible with anything. html5 is cool =)

  753. jonas’

    ralphm, hm, I don’t think it passed, really

  754. jonas’

    the last thing I saw from Guus about that during the meeting was more a "I wanna ask Peter first"

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  757. ralphm

    You are right. I'll pick it up for next week

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  776. Zash

    Why does "cla-assistant" need write access to my everythings?

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  779. Zash

    aaaaaaaaand that's enough web for today

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  806. daniel

    Mhhh now I need a thing to export the notes I made on my ebook reader to the mailing list

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  944. pep.

    https://2019.copyleftconf.org/ right after fosdem if people are interested

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  956. Zash

    who where

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  960. pep.


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  963. pep.

    I'd like to go, I'll start planning in a few days

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  969. edhelas


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