XSF Discussion - 2018-11-29

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Seve 06:58:54
Ge0rG, do you have somewhere where I could link to the new yaxim version?
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Ge0rG 07:07:04
Seve: yax.im/apk
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Seve 07:11:56
Ge0rG, 0.9.3 is it, right?
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Ge0rG 07:15:56
Seve: that Version is also on Google and f-droid
Ge0rG 07:16:14
The link is to latest nightly
Seve 07:16:47
Ge0rG, just talking about the newsletter
Seve 07:16:52
what should I link to?
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Ge0rG 07:24:46
Seve: Google play, unless I manage to write a blog post until tomorrow
Seve 07:25:15
ok Ge0rG :)
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Ge0rG 07:31:02
Seve: I suppose the download links can go in anyway: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.yaxim.androidclient and https://f-droid.org/packages/org.yaxim.androidclient/ for the cryptowh^H^Hnerds
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daniel 11:26:49
Is anyone working on either open source server side MIX implementations or willing to give me (and potentially other client developers) access to a (closed source) server that has MIX?
Kev 11:27:21
As soon as we've got something sharable, I'd be happy to run up something pokable on the 'net, but we haven't at the moment.
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daniel 11:28:47
Thanks. That could really help out with the chicken and egg problem the open source jabber community has with MIX
Kev 11:29:44
Indeed.
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jonas’ 11:52:28
did new board agree on a meeting time, by the way?
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ralphm 12:21:49
No, I informed them it is today at 15:30 CET.
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daniel 13:07:26
has anyone ever looked into compiling xep into mobi/epub
daniel 13:07:44
not kidding. but MIX is long enough that reading it on my kindle would be kinda cool
Ge0rG 13:07:46
IIRC Zash had some ideas around that, but nothing finished.
Zash 13:07:49
I have
Zash 13:08:08
Finished to the point of "works for me"
Ge0rG 13:08:39
As finished as the color-coded XEP diff txt renderer?
Zash 13:08:40
Would be neat to get that into the build process, along with PDF generation and whatnot
Ge0rG 13:08:58
👍
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Zash 13:09:25
Ge0rG: diffs are related but slightly different
Ge0rG 13:09:27
But with the XEP build process fetching a new machine image each time, it would delay things even more.
ralphm 13:09:30
There's already PDF generation, no?
Ge0rG 13:09:50
ralphm: PDF is the worst source for epub/mobi
daniel 13:09:52
Zash, care to share your xep to epub scripts?
daniel 13:10:22
can mobi/epub switch to monospace?
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daniel 13:10:34
i have never looked into the format
Ge0rG 13:10:41
AFAIU mobi/epub is a kind of XHTML subset.
Zash 13:10:49
epub is a zip file with html in it
Zash 13:11:15
The stuff I have produces markdown and then uses pandoc to build epubs from that
Ge0rG 13:11:46
https://stackoverflow.com/a/21626850/539443 for html->epub with pandoc
Ge0rG 13:12:14
calibre is probably a rather heavy dependency
daniel 13:12:43
yeah but i need that anyway for the mobi conversion
daniel 13:12:56
or at least i have not figured out another way to feed my kindle
Ge0rG 13:13:03
daniel: but it might be bad to include it into the official build system
daniel 13:13:05
tipps are welcome though
Ge0rG 13:13:19
pandoc is slim in comparison
Zash 13:13:21
You could try `pandoc xep-xxxx.html -o xep-xxxx.epub`
daniel 13:13:48
i guess i'll try that
Zash 13:13:49
daniel: https://gist.github.com/Zash/372591d4c61b6af70d810a78bd1af12d
Zash 13:13:59
There's the xep -> markdown thing
Ge0rG 13:14:12
pandoc: Prelude.read: no parse
Zash 13:14:23
and then `pandoc xep-blah.md -o xep-blah.epub`
Zash 13:15:16
input needs to have its entities expanded, so https://gist.github.com/Zash/372591d4c61b6af70d810a78bd1af12d#file-xep2md-sh
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Ge0rG 13:17:17
daniel: `ebook-convert build/xep-0045.html build/xep-0045.epub` WFM
Link Mauve 13:18:25
“14:10:54 Zash> epub is a zip file with html in it”, s/html/xhtml/, and a bunch of metadata files, in a specific directory structure.
Zash 13:18:37
Sure
Ge0rG 13:19:16
https://upload.yax.im/upload/zbeZLsvL8FuA2rNA/Screenshot_20181129-141906_FBReader.jpg
Zash 13:19:17
Link Mauve: Except I've managed to produce unbalanced tags and my eink thing still showed it (horribly messed up, but still)
Ge0rG 13:19:21
it even has nifty titles
Zash 13:19:31
Pretty
Ge0rG 13:19:35
(btw, does the OOB in my screenshot work for Conversations?)
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daniel 13:21:02
oh indeed it works reasonably well
Zash 13:21:23
daniel: You might even be able to just dump the html files onto the device and have it work
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Ge0rG 13:21:52
my ebook reader has a horrible html reader (it's using continuous scrolling on e-paper)
Zash 13:21:56
ew
daniel 13:22:00
yeah at least my calibre which i need anyway. will take html files directly
Ge0rG 13:22:20
but it's the only way to render the 110GB+ of offline wikipedias I have
daniel 13:22:28
https://share.gultsch.de/daniel/RyGBwEl1OMN8SAin/rJG-_bTCTo-zf9nSzcInLA.jpg
daniel 13:22:51
Ge0rG: the oob in your Screenshot doesn't work at all
daniel 13:23:10
if you give me the stanza i can take a look at it
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Ge0rG 13:24:12
<message from="xsf@muc.xmpp.org/Ge0rG" id="0wTCJ-8706" type="groupchat" to="georg@yax.im/poezio-IS8H"><body>https://upload.yax.im/upload/zbeZLsvL8FuA2rNA/Screenshot_20181129-141906_FBReader.jpg</body><x xmlns="jabber❌oob" url="https://upload.yax.im/upload/zbeZLsvL8FuA2rNA/Screenshot_20181129-141906_FBReader.jpg" /></message>
Ge0rG 13:24:22
just figured out it's @url instead of <url>
Ge0rG 13:24:39
I messed up the Oob.java when porting from smack3 to smack4
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Ge0rG 13:27:27
what I don't understand is why it can interpret the wrong tag correctly
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Zash 13:30:39
https://cerdale.zash.se/upload/yJNDBPRli6rRIacj/Z0dyALtQTdOr1y3wm66s_w.jpg
daniel 13:32:30
Zash: is this straight conversion or via your markdown thing?
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Zash 13:34:14
Ge0rG, daniel: How does it handle tables and examples?
Zash 13:34:23
daniel: via the markdown thing
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Ge0rG 13:35:27
Zash: dunno
Zash 13:37:07
.
Zash 13:37:42
L A G
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dwd 14:02:50
Does anyone happen to know if anyone's reverse-engineered WhatsApp recently?
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daniel 14:06:22
dwd: to you have reason to believe they changed it?
dwd 14:06:52
No... I suppose "recently" doesn't really matter.
daniel 14:07:39
Well the so called funxmpp is decently documented as far as I know
daniel 14:08:10
And WhatsApp transports / pidgin plugins used to work okish
Link Mauve 14:08:54
Aren’t they using the web API instead of talking the protocol itself?
Link Mauve 14:09:06
The web API which connects to your phone.
Link Mauve 14:09:18
Which is AFAIK how they implement multi-resources.
Zash 14:10:26
Including multi-resource E2EE?
Link Mauve 14:12:44
AFAIK it’s decrypted on your phone, then sent to your browser somehow.
Kev 14:13:13
E2SITME
Kev 14:13:21
End to Somewhere In The Middle Encryption :)
daniel 14:13:24
Link Mauve: I think there are/were transports that would talk directly to wa
Link Mauve 14:13:41
I may be wrong then.
daniel 14:13:43
Without the requirement to run it on your phone
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Link Mauve 14:14:11
The requirement was that your phone had to be on.
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MattJ 14:21:56
They are pretty aggressive at banning anyone who uses unofficial clients afaik
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ralphm set the topic to 14:29:50
XSF Board Meeting | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
ralphm bangs gavel 14:30:00
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ralphm 14:30:08
0. Welcome + Agenda
ralphm 14:30:33
Who do we have?
ralphm 14:30:53
Seve, nyco, MattJ, Guus
Seve 14:30:59
Seve is here :)
MattJ 14:30:59
o/
nyco 14:31:16
hey
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ralphm 14:31:37
Guus sent regrets
ralphm 14:31:56
So we can start
ralphm 14:32:17
My first point would be electing our Chair
dwd 14:32:24
I, too, am here. Not entirely sure if I am Council Chair, technically, at the moment though. :-)
ralphm 14:32:33
Thank you dwd
Guus 14:32:55
did I sent regrets?
Guus 14:33:06
I'm pretty sure I did not 🙂
ralphm 14:33:06
oh, hah, I messed up
dwd 14:33:11
Guus, If so, do you regret it now?
ralphm 14:33:11
It was a mail from June :-D
Guus 14:33:38
Thank you for promptly processing my mail 🙂
ralphm 14:33:39
Full house. Great
ralphm 14:33:49
Guus: I still have unreads from 2016
ralphm 14:34:09
1. Election of the Chair of the Board
nyco 14:34:15
technically, it is thus not wrong, Guus sent regrets, just not for this meeting
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ralphm 14:34:27
For this we need nominations and then votes
ralphm 14:35:21
:crickets:
dwd 14:35:31
I'm assuming self-nominations are fine, if people want to volunteer?
ralphm 14:35:57
I'd be happy to continue.
MattJ 14:36:14
Well, without an idea of who wants to be nominated, it's a bit awkward :)
MattJ 14:36:19
I'd be happy for ralphm to continue
Guus 14:36:31
+1
Seve 14:36:43
Me as well, +1 for ralphm :) And also thanks for volunteering
nyco 14:36:52
+1
ralphm 14:37:01
Thank you!
dwd 14:37:01
Well, this is a bit boring. :-)
ralphm 14:37:17
dwd: you can always cast an invalid vote
dwd 14:37:28
-1! I VETO!!!
Guus 14:37:42
chair, I think an invalid vote was just cast.
ralphm 14:37:46
Let the records show that the Board has elected Ralph Meijer as Chair of the Board for the 2018/2019 term.
ralphm 14:38:19
Speaking of which:
ralphm 14:38:23
2. Minutes
MattJ 14:38:23
Heh
Guus 14:38:40
I do nominate dwd, since we're in the process of nominating people anyways... 🙂
ralphm 14:38:54
Last term, we had a hard time getting minutes consistently. I'd like to ask for a volunteer to create minutes for all meetings.
ralphm 14:39:09
Guus: I second that
nyco 14:40:12
I raise this: it would be nice to edit collaboratively and in real-time our notes while we have the meeting thus at the end, it is just a matter of finalising (typo, punctuation, etc) and send to ML
nyco 14:40:31
it works if not only one person types
nyco 14:40:37
~~it is hareder when 5 people type~~ ✎
nyco 14:40:43
it is harder when 5 people type ✏
MattJ 14:40:43
I wouldn't be opposed to that
dwd 14:40:56
I'm doubtful I can reliably do minutes, but I can volunteer from time to time.
ralphm 14:40:57
I'd prefer it not be a Director
Guus 14:40:59
nyco, I don't quite like that. To many open tabs as it is, for my taste.
Guus 14:41:19
I'll not oppose, but am unlikely to contribute during the meeting.
nyco 14:41:24
~~then don't open tabe, just windows sitting side by side~~ ✎
dwd 14:41:26
I can knock some out for this meeting, though, and see how it goes.
nyco 14:41:29
then don't open tabs, just windows sitting side by side ✏
ralphm 14:41:34
dwd: thank you
Seve 14:41:41
Is there something wrong on going through the history and write the minutes after that? Sounds easier to me.
ralphm 14:42:09
From what I understand, this is harder than following along in real time, oddly.
dwd 14:42:12
Seve, It is possible, but personally I find it much harder - it's useful to be able to ask clarifying quesitons during the meeting.
nyco 14:42:25
Seve then one person has to re-process the whole meeting, it is quite boring, consumes time
ralphm 14:43:01
Anyway, let's take up dwd's offer and see how that works out.
Guus 14:43:08
wfm
Seve 14:43:11
Thanks dwd :)
nyco 14:43:25
thx @dwd
ralphm 14:43:44
3. Elections of Secretary, Treasurer, Executive Director
ralphm 14:44:15
For the Secretary and Treasurer, I'd like to ask the current Officers if they'd like to continue in their role.
ralphm 14:44:38
I will send out e-mails for that.
Guus 14:44:38
+1
MattJ 14:44:58
+1, thanks ralphm
nyco 14:45:01
+1
Seve 14:45:09
+1
nyco 14:45:12
and ED?
MattJ 14:45:32
nyco, ssshhh
ralphm 14:45:37
For Executive Director, the previous Board has had some on and off discussions on this. Guus and I have been planning to talk to Peter Saint-Andre to see what we could do here, since he resigned from this office over a year ago.
MattJ 14:45:56
ralphm, did he actually resign? or say he intended to?
Guus 14:46:36
MattJ, we'll need handle him leaving regardless.
Guus 14:47:03
Ralph, let's pick two or three dates for Peter to agree with
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ralphm 14:47:31
Peter resigned on 8 March 2017, in an e-mail to the Board.
ralphm 14:48:20
I'm not sure if there's an effective date, explicitly, but we assumed the end of the Board term of 2016/2017.
Guus 14:48:36
(date for our meeting, I ment)
ralphm 14:48:50
Guus: sure
ralphm 14:49:05
4. AOB
ralphm 14:49:06
?
Guus 14:49:21
Seve, can you write a short bio please?
Guus 14:49:36
we'll need to replace Martin's on the website
ralphm 14:49:37
Guus: good point
nyco 14:49:54
no OB for me
Seve 14:49:56
Guus, right
nyco 14:50:01
oh wait, yes
nyco 14:50:12
~~what time and date fro each meeting?~~ ✎
nyco 14:50:13
frequency
nyco 14:50:27
what time and date for each meeting? ✏
ralphm 14:50:44
I suggest keeping the weekly rhythm and time.
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nyco 14:50:54
+1
ralphm 14:50:58
If anyone is ok with this timeslot.
ralphm 14:51:02
everyone even
Guus 14:51:08
works for me, but Seve is new here 🙂
Seve 14:51:21
It is ok for me, thanks Guus :)
Guus 14:51:25
great
ralphm 14:51:33
MattJ, too?
MattJ 14:51:41
Yep, it's fine for me
ralphm 14:51:46
Splendid.
ralphm 14:51:56
6. Date of Next ^
ralphm 14:52:02
7. Close
ralphm 14:52:18
Thank you all. I look forward to working with you this term.
nyco 14:52:24
thx all
Seve 14:52:26
Me too, thank you very much!
MattJ 14:52:32
Thanks, and welcome again Seve, glad to have you aboard :)
jonas’ 14:52:37
pun intended?
ralphm 14:52:37
Indeed!
Guus 14:52:39
Ralph: for our meeting with Peter, every Monday and Friday evening > 7 our time, is fine with me, with the exception of December 10th.
jonas’ 14:52:40
:)
nyco 14:52:47
welcome on "board", Seve! 😉
ralphm bangs gavel 14:52:47
jonas’ 14:52:58
Guus, what about december 24th?
ralphm set the topic to 14:52:59
XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
ralphm 14:53:13
Guus: yeah, I think that works for me too
Guus 14:53:37
jonas', I intend to spend all of the holidays sitting idle in a virtual XSF board meeting room, yes.
Seve 14:53:40
Thank you everybody :D! Happy to be part of the board!
jonas’ 14:53:47
Guus, oh, okay :)
Guus 14:53:51
ralphm, could you ask Peter if that works for him?
Guus 14:54:03
Good to have you, Seve!
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ralphm 14:58:28
Guus: just sent out the e-mail
ralphm 14:58:38
Seve can you verify you got it?
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ralphm 14:59:08
I'm sure Kev or intosi can you help you out in case of trouble.
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Seve 14:59:20
I didn't, something I need to figure out with iteam, yes
MattJ 15:00:06
Sorry, I'd look but I don't have access to the mail server
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daniel 15:06:17
re: epub - those tables in MIX unsurprisingly don’t render very well
daniel 15:06:27
just not enough horizontal screen
daniel 15:06:34
but everything else is ok
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Guus 15:12:20
ralphm could you also give Seve access to the Trello board?
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Neustradamus 15:17:20
Seve: https://github.com/stpeter/jabberdotorg/issues/5 + previous ^^
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Guus 15:20:49
nyco maybe you want to update your bio too
Guus 15:21:25
it still has you listed Mongoose Product Owner, you're no longer, are you?
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Neustradamus 15:26:33
It is possible to see for an update of https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/infrastructure-team? - There is not : Data backups (provided by ASET at Penn State University) - Digital certificates is now Let's Encrypt - Source control (Subversion and various products donated by Atlassian) <-- dead since a long time: tracker.xmpp.org... and now github - Web server and associated software (lighttpd, MySQL, WordPress, MediaWiki) <-- WordPress has been removed... Thanks in advance.
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Guus 15:28:57
Neustradamus, please provide a pull request
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daniel 16:03:08
btw Link Mauve I've looked into sending out a xhtml-im render of of message styling in addition to the message styling itself at least for plain text messages. not that i’m a huge fan but I thought it doesn’t hurt right. but it doesn’t do strike through text
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daniel 16:03:11
any solution for that?
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Link Mauve 16:04:00
daniel, hmm, IIRC there is support for text-decoration.
Link Mauve 16:04:28
Someone also suggested adding support for <del/> in the recommended profile.
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daniel 16:05:21
i would prefer to avoid having to generate css
jonas’ 16:06:12
and I would prefer to avoid having to process CSS
jonas’ 16:06:20
I think ``<del/>`` would be an okay choice
daniel 16:06:47
also it seems there is font-weight and
Link Mauve 16:06:51
You could consider as a single element maybe?
daniel 16:07:09
it feels like xhtml-im is a very weird mix of styling and context information
SamWhited 16:07:10
We could also get rid of strike through in styling; I just added it because Whatsapp or something had it, but I don't see it as necessary.
Link Mauve 16:07:36
SamWhited, there is no reason for that, I’m sure some people now rely on it.
daniel 16:08:06
what is the recommended approach for rendering
jonas’ 16:08:14
daniel, "normal"
daniel 16:08:17
will it look differnt depending on what client you use it with?
jonas’ 16:08:18
@style trumps element style
ralphm 16:08:25
Slack has strike through.
jonas’ 16:08:25
by normal XHTML/CSS rules
daniel 16:08:28
since css is not mandetory to implement
jonas’ 16:08:35
then it’ll render differently in each client :)
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Link Mauve 16:10:16
Well, @style is marked REQUIRED in the recommended attributes.
Link Mauve 16:10:30
The rest, NOT RECOMMENDED.
daniel 16:10:31
So I have to implemt css?
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Link Mauve 16:11:35
Uh, table 8 says that and don’t take @style or any other attribute.
daniel 16:11:37
i feel like last time we talked about it someone said i don’t have to implement css
Link Mauve 16:11:44
This would contradict jonas’.
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ralphm 16:51:52
Well, first of all, while implementing the style attribute is REQUIRED, the styles to support are RECOMMENDED. I suggest that supporting no styles is still compliant.
ralphm 16:52:14
(there's also prose in 7.6 to suggest this)
ralphm 16:52:34
Further, the entire specification is NOT RECOMMENDED to implement given its deprecation.
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daniel 17:04:33
Yeah I don't know. I was just trying to make message styling work for clients that don't like message styling
Zash 17:05:27
ralphm: Can it be un-deprecated?
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ralphm 17:05:59
There's no defined process for that
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Zash 17:07:57
The underlying problem was not solved by deprecating beacuse it resides in the availability of rendering engines with way too much attack surface.
Zash 17:08:17
And the lack of sufficiently advanced rendering engines that aren't also javascript and css engines
Zash 17:09:14
And message styling looks too much like Markdown that people just throw it at their markdown parsers which happily pass raw HTML right through and we're back at square one.
Yagiza 17:10:14
I can easily implement XEP-394 instead of XHTML-IM in my client once it will be usable. The idea of XEP-0394 is really good. But current implementation is so awful, I don want even try to implement right now.
daniel 17:10:22
well message styling is simple enough that people can at least attempt to write their own parsers
Link Mauve 17:10:50
Zash, both 0393 and Markdown are fine as input formats, even with HTML stuff.
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Zash 17:12:43
The problem isn't the input format, the problem is doing anything and throwing it into a full blown HTML+CSS+JS environment
jonas’ 17:12:55
ralphm, speaking of process, reminding board about https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/719
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Link Mauve 17:13:39
Zash, indeed, but that’ll happen no matter the wire format.
rion 17:13:40
sometimes on 1st April I send a css injection to a muc which turns chatlog up side down. I don't want to fix this "bug" because it's funny =))
ralphm 17:13:55
That was approved last week!
Link Mauve 17:14:07
rion, :D
Zash 17:14:08
rion: Can't you do that with some magic Unicode marker too? :)
jonas’ 17:14:21
ralphm, no minutes from last week :(
Zash 17:14:30
https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/rtl.png
ralphm 17:16:51
Hmm
rion 17:16:52
Zash: I think it's possible with anything. html5 is cool =)
jonas’ 17:17:56
ralphm, hm, I don’t think it passed, really
jonas’ 17:18:10
the last thing I saw from Guus about that during the meeting was more a "I wanna ask Peter first"
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ralphm 17:21:34
You are right. I'll pick it up for next week
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Zash 17:58:15
Why does "cla-assistant" need write access to my everythings?
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Zash 18:04:11
aaaaaaaaand that's enough web for today
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daniel 18:59:51
Mhhh now I need a thing to export the notes I made on my ebook reader to the mailing list
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pep. 23:07:59
https://2019.copyleftconf.org/ right after fosdem if people are interested
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Zash 23:27:07
who where
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pep. 23:29:50
Brussels
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pep. 23:32:50
I'd like to go, I'll start planning in a few days
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edhelas 23:41:10
https://twitter.com/musalbas/status/1068179464197156864
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