XSF Discussion - 2018-12-03

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  340. Zash pong (DUP!)
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  343. Ge0rG reminds me of the hundreds of Receipts in MUC history.
  344. Ge0rG Some clients don't just send Receipts as type=groupchat into a MUC, they also do so on each MUC history sync.
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  454. ralphm Steve Kille: did we drop the ability to provide channel info / config during channel creation, with the Big Split™?
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  464. Steve Kille ralphm: it did
  465. Steve Kille Core (XEP-0369) has a minimal "create channel".
  466. Steve Kille The fancy stuff went into MIX-ADMIN (XEP-0406).
  467. Steve Kille Is there a problem wiith doing two ops?
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  469. Kev I don't think so, particularly, as long as we're careful to default to be maximally closed and open things up via config.
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  476. ralphm Steve Kille: not nessarily, but you now have to do three requests to create the channel, set the name, description, and then potentially set ownership.
  477. ralphm necessarily even
  478. Steve Kille Modularity is good
  479. MattJ That can't be held as a general truth
  480. ralphm And the prose around channel creation says that it “MAY be created with default parameters”, but there is no other way (anymore).
  481. ralphm It would be good to explain how to do this by mentioning the info and config topics there (in MIX-CORE), and pointing to the MIX-ADMIN for changing them.
  482. Steve Kille I've made a note to sort edits here to clarify things. Unless people are very keen to see a jumbo op
  483. Kev Creation and configuration being distinct steps seems to make sense to me. You have to support them as distinct steps, so only doing so seems simpler.
  484. Steve Kille my preference too
  485. MattJ MUC has a hack to make them not distinct steps (locking)
  486. Kev Indeed. I think it's cleaner to avoid the hack.
  487. MattJ Agreed. An atomic create+configure is quite sensible in my mind :)
  488. Kev Or, at least, that particular hack - if we were going to do it as a single op, hopefully we'd do better.
  489. Kev atomic create-and-configure is ok if you have to have create-and-configure. It's not clear to me that we need it for MIX, if we default to closed, hidden channels.
  490. ralphm I agree that create+configure makes a lot of sense to. Makes creating a channel less complex for clients (no need to keep state during the creation), and allows for rejecting the creation based on certain configuration or info.
  491. ralphm (too)
  492. ralphm Unfortunately, because we have also split up form namespaces, you'd now have to either pass in two forms, or use Clark's Notation. :-(
  493. ralphm There's also a latency aspect to the multiple steps, especially in mobile settings with low-bandwidth/speed networks.
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  512. Kev I don't think latency is actually true, there's no more roundtrips, only more stanzas.
  513. Ge0rG Isn't it two RTTs vs one?
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  516. Ge0rG Unless you can configure the MIX before receiving the creation response
  517. MattJ I assume Kev means you could optimistically pipeline the config
  518. Kev Indeed.
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  520. MattJ which is not a thing most XMPP libraries will let you do
  521. Kev Really? :o
  522. MattJ You have a counterexample? I assume Swiften will, or you wouldn't have suggested it :)
  523. Kev Anyway. create+configure does have advantages if we get the failure rules right.
  524. Kev Swiften will let you send any stanzas you want.
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  526. MattJ Sure, but can you tell it to send two stanzas "together"?
  527. MattJ Oh, you probably didn't mean that
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  530. Kev Together? No, but you can issue the send in the same call, which means they've got every chance of going out in the same write if they fit, and certainly aren't roundtripped.
  531. MattJ Right
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  534. Kev Create+configure does mean you can avoid the client logic of create, configure, catch the configure failure, destroy the room.
  535. MattJ Yep
  536. MattJ It's so attractive that I've been pondering over a spec for create+configure in MUC
  537. Kev Well, things are a bit worse with MUC to start with. I think if we get the closed-by-default right for MIX, it's /less/ necessary.
  538. Ge0rG I've understood the intent, but don't you need the room JID from the create response as a parameter in the configure request? I'm a bit rusty on the MIX protocol details...
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  542. Ge0rG What's the right incantation to receive the last 50 messages from MAM for a given contact JID?
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  571. MattJ Ge0rG, filter with=contact-jid and in the RSM put an empty <before/> element as in https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0059.html#last
  572. MattJ and <max>50</max> of course
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  574. Ge0rG MattJ: thanks!
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  581. Ge0rG MattJ: judging from the number of inquiries, this should be added to 0313
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  590. ralphm Kev: for ad hoc channels you can't pipeline
  591. Kev Well whose fault is that? Blame the authors :p
  592. Kev So, yeah, create-with-configuration is probably sensible.
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  595. ralphm Looking at the use cases I have, I would only have ad hoc channels. If you look at e.g. Whatsapp, you'd never know the equivalent of the localpart of the channel JID. For Slack, the channel name (#general) can change over time, so there too, the localpart of the JID would not be something you expose to users. It would probably go in the 'Name' info field.
  596. ralphm Kev: Now the question is, how do we put create-with-configuration back in? Would we indeed pass in two forms?
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  598. Kev I think that's a question I don't have cycles for in the next few minutes, I'm afraid. The addressing/external identifier thing is interesting. We could in principle work entirely with addressing being distinct, and need a lookup, but then that's compexity and no-one likes complexity (until it's a feature they need).
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  600. ralphm I can imagine that for more traditional cases you'd still want named (non-ad hoc) channels, but I'm not sure. It is mostly a vanity address.
  601. ralphm A short name like xsf@mix.xmpp.org is nicer to communicate than 725c9f1d-c653-4715-988c-764e23cd304c@mix.xmpp.org.
  602. ralphm (outside of the protocol itself)
  603. Kev You need external identifiers.
  604. Kev So you need to be able to say "Channel #xsf on server muc.xmpp.org" in one form or another.
  605. ralphm Yeah, and if that happens to match the channel JID, that's a nice bonus
  606. ralphm Problem is one generally doesn't expect JIDs to change and the systems where you possibly can rename channels (like Slack) are mostly closed ecosystems where you don't have to expose the address.
  607. ralphm Of course References could play a role within XMPP, not so much outside.
  608. Kev Within XMPP you could say #xsf but have the reference point to aoud.rugadr.gucdant.,udn@muc.xmpp.org, yes.
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  623. Ge0rG is there a central mapping of XMPP errors to human-readable strings? Properly i18nized? With context for the different places where an XMPP error can happen?
  624. Zash There is https://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc6120.html#stanzas-error-conditions
  625. Zash No i18n I'm afraid
  626. ralphm Ge0rG: it is also likely you don't really want that
  627. Ge0rG ralphm: because I don't want to present understandable error messages to the user?
  628. ralphm No, because you generally want your app to understand the error in context and then present something meaningful to a user, if needed. This is almost never want is (mapped from) the error condition itself.
  629. ralphm Like `item-not-found` can mean a world of different things depending on the context.
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  632. Ge0rG Right. So what I want is a map of (situation, error, language) -> human readable string
  633. Ge0rG and I'm pretty sure this is interoperable between clients.
  634. jonas’ yupp, and when you end up in a situation where there is no such mapping entry, you want to show the unlocalized, original error condition so that at least nerds can debug it
  635. Ge0rG "XMPPError: not-allowed - cancel" is just not helpful to a normal person.
  636. ralphm jonas’: not at all
  637. Zash Ge0rG: "ej tillåten" or "verboten" wouldn't be that much better
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  639. jonas’ VERRBOTEN
  640. Ge0rG Zash: it would be.
  641. jonas’ not really
  642. Ge0rG at least it would be in the user's language.
  643. jonas’ and then the user comes into the support room of their client and asks what it means and nobody knows what "ej tillåten" means
  644. jonas’ and you can’t even tell android folks to run the client with LANG=C
  645. frainz has left
  646. Ge0rG jonas’: okay, so I show the translation plus the original XML then :P
  647. Zash But *what* wasn't allowed/found?
  648. lovetox cant you just add a text node to the error?
  649. lovetox if i recall ejabbered does that for many error stanzas
  650. Zash That makes it someone elses problem
  651. Ge0rG prosody doesn't. But then you need to maintain a map of (situation, error, language) -> human readable string in the server!
  652. Zash Prosody does, sometimes
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  654. jonas’ the server might know better than the client what went wrong though
  655. Ge0rG Zash: hi there, someone else!
  656. jonas’ although not in all cases
  657. jonas’ e.g. PEP
  658. jonas’ where the server doesn’t know what’s going on either
  659. ralphm Localization that way is hard. Now the entities taking to you need to know the language
  660. jonas’ ralphm, no
  661. jonas’ you can send multiple languages in <error/>
  662. Zash Sometimes there are multiple different causes for the same error (type, condition)
  663. jonas’ and even if you want to avoid that, you can use the xml:lang on the incoming stanza (which is always present)
  664. Ge0rG ...or they need to stuff all languages into the error.
  665. Ge0rG > use the xml:lang on the incoming stanza (which is always present) is it?
  666. jonas’ Ge0rG, yes
  667. jonas’ it is required on the <stream:stream/>, and transfers from that to the stanzas on routing
  668. lovetox i think for most errors it makes totally sense for the server to add a text
  669. lovetox and this works fine
  670. jonas’ For initial stream headers, the initiating entity SHOULD include the 'xml:lang' attribute.
  671. jonas’ well, SHOULD
  672. Ge0rG See.
  673. lovetox not-authorized can mean many things, only the server can give a more descriptive error text
  674. ralphm I'd still not want to present this to an end user
  675. lovetox why not?
  676. lovetox it makes no sense to display a generic error message (from the client) that can never hit the point whats wrong
  677. jonas’ ralphm, in the case of a forbidden MUC join for example, there can be many reasons: - Only members are allowed in this room (and you are not one) - Only folks from this server are allowed in this room - You need a password to enter this room ...
  678. ralphm Because you don't control what the other party is putting in there, and the same issue might yields different messages
  679. lovetox if i upload a file via httpupload, there are mutliple confitions that maybe prevent me from uploading but all have the same error
  680. lovetox not-authorized
  681. jonas’ and the client cannot distinguish which of those reasons it is, just by looking at forbidden
  682. lovetox it doesnt help the user at all if i show a generic text, NOT AUTHORIZED
  683. lovetox ejabbered provides the real error in the text translated
  684. ralphm jonas’: this is why there's the ability to have application specific error condition elements
  685. lovetox there is no better thing really
  686. jonas’ and thus it’s good if the server supplies this. and the client can show this in addition to its own explanation: "Failed to join group chat. $servermessage"
  687. jonas’ ralphm, they’re underused though
  688. jonas’ ralphm, but point taken
  689. ralphm Agreed
  690. Holger ralphm: The logic is, in theory the other party might provide a bad/misleading error message so better not ever show any of them?
  691. Zash Let's just not have errors
  692. Zash Let's always succeed! \o/
  693. ralphm Holger: support wise yes
  694. Holger ralphm: Not my experience.
  695. lovetox why ralphm support wise this is gold
  696. Zash I think it's sensible to have some way to show the underlying error condition
  697. lovetox i can go to the server admin and tell him the exact error message
  698. ralphm Most of the time these messages are not actionably by a user
  699. lovetox not i got a "not-authorized"
  700. Zash It can be behind a long-press or somesuch
  701. ralphm That is a great idea
  702. Holger ralphm: We added tons of descriptive error messages to ejabberd over the past few months and that helps a *lot* support-wise in practice. If the clients don't hide them.
  703. Zash "Something went wrong [show details]"
  704. lovetox the point that this trys to solve is, there are 100 different reasons for a error happening, but only 10 types of errors
  705. Holger Yes.
  706. ralphm Holger: Commendable, but I disagree, unless like what Zash described
  707. Zash To some extent, can't you guesstimate the actionability of the error based on the error type?
  708. Zash wait/cancel/auth etc
  709. Holger Zash's suggestion sounds like a compromise between my point and the one I don't get :-)
  710. Holger Zash: Sure, sometimes.
  711. Zash What do the great gods of UX say about this?
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  714. Holger How's the error condition received by the remote party is less likely to be incorrect/misleading than a descriptive error text?
  715. ralphm Zash: our UX people usually go with "Oops, something went wrong", unless the app has a better explanation.
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  718. MattJ For a web app and a server-side error that can be done
  719. ralphm Holger: because your error message might be something that doesn't make any sense to a user
  720. Holger It's not about making sense to a user but helping support.
  721. ralphm And this is where we disagree
  722. Holger The trade-offs may well be different for closed systems where you basically just need a timestamp and then check the server logs.
  723. Holger Well I'm no good at helping users who report "something went wrong" messages but okay.
  724. MattJ I think each point in this conversation depends on exactly what kind of error it is
  725. Nekit has left
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  727. Holger But it's usually an all-or-nothing decision for client developers, I'd assume.
  728. Zash MattJ: error.type = cancel | modify | auth | wait ?
  729. MattJ Either it's actionable by the user, by the service admin, by the client developer, or possibly even the server developer. Otherwise a temporary technical problem.
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  731. MattJ Zash, exactly (if those categories map cleanly)
  732. dos has left
  733. Zash MattJ: Hopefully they'll map to whether the user should wait or give up or do something
  734. MattJ Well "wait" is clear enough that it's a temporary issue that can be fixed by retrying, indeed
  735. MattJ The others are more vague
  736. MattJ and all this of course depends on entities setting the type correctly :)
  737. Zash "Something went wrong, {wait:try again later; auth:you're not allowed to do that, Dave; cancel: sorry, that won't work."
  738. Zash MattJ: Don't forget that it depends on XEPs not mandating weird error conditions for things
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  740. lovetox see best example is "wait"
  741. lovetox httpupload server mod says you reached your quota
  742. lovetox you have to wait one day
  743. lovetox this can be in a error text
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  745. lovetox "A temporary problem" doesnt help the user at all
  746. MattJ Yes, agreed
  747. MattJ I'm a big fan of <text>, and strongly disagree with the spec when it says it shouldn't be displayed to the user
  748. MattJ In the past that may have been sensible, but I try to choose sensible error texts whenever possible
  749. Ge0rG The errors I run into don't have error texts at all.
  750. lovetox the best is the forbidden error in combination with MUCs
  751. lovetox Gajim just had its own text for that, it always displayed "You are banned from that room"
  752. lovetox :D
  753. MattJ The not-acceptable one? Yeah, if Prosody doesn't send a <text> with that, it should
  754. MattJ It's been on my todo to investigate for a while
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  757. Ge0rG Also no text when you send a message to a MUC you are not in, or when you try to add yourself to your roster.
  758. Zash Ge0rG: Have you tried sending a presence probe to yourself;
  759. Zash Ge0rG: Have you tried sending a presence probe to yourself?
  760. Ge0rG Zash: no
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  853. Alex Memberbot is ready for you guys again ;-)
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  861. edhelas https://old.reddit.com/r/opensource/comments/a2u54g/hey_tumblr_users_here_is_why_movim_could_be_the/
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