XSF Discussion - 2018-12-08

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  66. Yagiza Hello!
  67. Yagiza jonas’, are you Jonas Schäfer?
  68. Yagiza Is it possible to adopt a deferred XEP?
  69. ralphm Yes.
  70. ralphm Which one?
  71. Yagiza ralphm, right now I'm about XEP-0394: Message Markup
  72. Yagiza ralphm, I want to implement something like it in my client as an alternative to deprecated XEP-0071, but in it current state it is almost useless, so I don't want. And it seems, no one wants.
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  74. Yagiza ralphm, and author said that he have no time to improve it.
  75. ralphm Yeah, XHTML-IM has various security concerns, that's why it was deprecated
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  77. Yagiza ralphm, the idea of the XEP is good, but it's current implementation is awful. We need to add more features and remove unneeded restrictions to make it a usable alternative to XEP-0071.
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  79. ralphm There's been some recent discussion on it
  80. ralphm And there are a few other suggestions
  81. Yagiza ralphm, yes. But the main question is who will keep updating the XEP. At least, to advance it back to experimental state.
  82. ralphm https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/bmh.html https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0393.html
  83. ralphm Yagiza: sure. I'd send an email to standards@xmpp.org about your suggestions for modification. Then either Jonas will ask for a pull request or more discussion ensues.
  84. Yagiza ralphm, ok, thanx
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  86. ralphm No worries.
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  89. oli Yagiza: xep-0394 _sucks_
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  92. oli don't implement it.
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  95. Yagiza oli, the idea is good.
  96. oli no its not
  97. oli i hate the idea
  98. Yagiza oli, why?
  99. Yagiza oli, I myself hate an idea of using LML in IM, but I feel ut's a good idea to allow using rich text formatting.
  100. oli because it forces me to use some weird "markup"
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  102. Yagiza oli, it forces you? Never heard about any XEP, which FORCES someone to do something.
  103. Yagiza oli, AFAIK all the XEPs are optional.
  104. oli why not use <b> <em> <i> ?
  105. Yagiza oli, what do you mean?
  106. Yagiza oli, where to use them?
  107. oli why not use some basic xhtml for rich text.
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  109. oli the client can decide how to implement it
  110. oli if you like 0394 then translate it
  111. oli client translates it to xhtml
  112. oli underlines as italics is weird...
  113. Yagiza oli, i can't get your point.
  114. Yagiza oli, what do you suggest?
  115. oli the richtext format on the wire should be xml, like xep-0071, but much simpler
  116. oli clients could implement whatsapp like markup, but translate it to xml
  117. Yagiza oli, using the way it described in XEP-0071 have nasty problem: formatted and unformatted texts are separated. So, it's possible to send absolutely different content to those, who's software supports XEP and for those, who's software do not. Also, it will make problem with P2P encryption XEPs.
  118. ralphm oli: the primary objection to having something syntactically a subset of (X)HTML is that people just throw at their closest HTML rendering engine, without checking.
  119. Yagiza oli, so, XEP-0394 is much better in that way: text itself and its formatting MUST be separated!
  120. oli maybe im confusing xeps
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  122. Yagiza oli, yes. If you're about XEP-0393, it's really awful.
  123. Yagiza oli, I'm strongly against using LML in IM.
  124. Yagiza oli, also, it's too bad that XEP names are confusing.
  125. oli fuck, sorry
  126. Yagiza oli, I told about it more than a year ago, but nothing's changed so far.
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  128. Yagiza oli, XEP-0393 describes LML, but called "Styling" and XEP-0394 describes styling, but called "Markup"!
  129. Yagiza oli, I also was often confused because of that and often mixed them up!
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  131. oli ok, i will remember 0393 *bad* 0394 good
  132. Yagiza That's why I want to adopt XEP-0394, to fix those issues and make it usable, to start its implementation in my client.
  133. oli which client
  134. oli ?
  135. Yagiza oli, yes. XEP-0393 is a bad idea itself. XEP-0394 is a good idea, but awful implementation in its current state.
  136. Yagiza oli, eyeCU.
  137. Yagiza oli, it has full implementation of XEP-0071 right now.
  138. ralphm I'd rename for being so much like ICQ you might have a trademark issue
  139. Yagiza oli, it can even use both http(s)/ftp and cid (BOB) chemas for embedded images.
  140. Yagiza ralphm, i don't think so. eyeCU called that way because it's geoloc-oriented. It has built-in online map engine, so you can see your contacts on the map.
  141. ralphm I don't have a beef in it, just saying that I'd avoid a legal discussion that you're likely to lose.
  142. ralphm I'm not taking about the client, I'm taking about its name.
  143. ralphm Talking
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  145. Yagiza ralphm, yes. You're just the first person, who ever tell that our client name may have legal issues.
  146. ralphm Better me than a lawyer
  147. Yagiza ralphm, yes. So, you gave me an idea to register "eyeCU" and eyeCU logo as a trademark!
  148. ralphm Good luck. I'm very curious about the outcome.
  149. oli OS/2 :)
  150. Yagiza ralphm, you are from Netherlands, you talk just like you're from USA! ;-)
  151. Yagiza oli, do you fel something bad about IBM OS/2?
  152. Yagiza feel
  153. ralphm I'm told I do sound like a Californian when speaking English.
  154. oli Yagiza: I used it in the 90s with fidonet and BBS
  155. Yagiza ralphm, yes, but that's not an idea. A character of a popular Russian sitcom said once: "USA is a country of lawyers and criminals!". The idea is that because of lawyers in USA anyone may suddenly find himself a criminal.
  156. Yagiza oli, me too!
  157. oli i dont think there is a problem with eyeCU and ICQ.
  158. oli it did remind me of CU-SeeMe
  159. oli ok, but thats offtopic
  160. Yagiza oli, I'm sure it's impossible in Russia, even now, when ICQ belongs to a Russian company. But I can't be sure about USA and other countries with strange laws and almighty lawyers.
  161. oli are there other clients that support xep-0394?
  162. Yagiza oli, I hope, no
  163. Yagiza oli, if there are, it makes its harder to improve it.
  164. Yagiza oli, the authors of those clients will try to resist serious changes.
  165. ralphm I don't see that as a valid reason against changes while it is experimental or even deferred.
  166. Yagiza ralphm, me so
  167. Yagiza ralphm, but
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  169. Yagiza ralphm, once I tried to suggest improvements for XEP-0363 here, some people started to argue against them. And the only argument was that there are existing implementations and authors will not implement my suggestions even after XEP is updated.
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  171. ralphm Well, if they're backwards incompatible, it may require increasing the number at the end of the namespace. Whether a change gets accepted is ultimately up to the Council.
  172. ralphm Oddly, XEP-0363 is still in Last Call, so you might make another attempt.
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  174. Yagiza ralphm, to tell the truth, I didn't even try to post my suggestions to mailing list, 'cause they were hardly criticized by a pair of participants of this (or jdev) room.
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  176. Ge0rG Somebody tried to make the 0363 client a full HTTP proxy and almost succeeded. The web is a huge mess for security, not only the markup but also the transport.
  177. Yagiza Ge0rG, IC
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  179. Ge0rG Also 0393 was supposed to document existing usage of the markup in some clients, and is sufficiently easy to implement. I'm not convinced that 0394 has a chance for wide adoption
  180. Yagiza Ge0rG, that's why I think it should be an informational XEP, not standards track.
  181. Ge0rG The names are really bad. I already suggested renaming them to markright (uses >) and markleft (needs < for all styling annotations)
  182. daniel Funnily enough 393 is better than what some clients are implementing
  183. Yagiza Ge0rG, the only idea I suggested is to send file hash when requesting a slot. So, if file is already on the server, server will reply just with URL, without upload slot.
  184. daniel Same syntax stricter rules
  185. Ge0rG Yagiza: I've implemented 0393 in my client. It's great.
  186. Yagiza Ge0rG, your arguments?
  187. ralphm Indeed, 0393 is basically codifying the Slack syntax, no?
  188. Yagiza Ge0rG, besides "it's great because I like it".
  189. daniel You only start noticing how important the parsing rules in 393 are when you use a client that doesn't follow
  190. daniel > Indeed, 0393 is basically codifying the Slack syntax, no? I mix of WhatsApp and slack plus some in the wild testing
  191. daniel I mean WhatsApp and slack don't publish their exact rules
  192. daniel But it's the same general syntax
  193. Ge0rG Yagiza: your suggestion is nice, but now you created an oracle that will tell the user whether a given file exists on the server
  194. Ge0rG Yagiza: 0393 is in a sweet spot of easy to implement, easy to understand for users, sufficiently easy for handicapped people
  195. Ge0rG Also works over transports
  196. Yagiza Ge0rG, yes. And what's wrong with it?
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  198. ralphm Ge0rG: do you think that the body markup hints spec in the inbox is a useful complement to XEP-0393?
  199. Ge0rG ralphm: haven't read yet
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  201. daniel ralphm: it feels overly generalized. That will end up like the stanza-id xep or the hints xep that is only used in one place. I'd prefer to use add a <styled xml=message styling /> hint
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  205. ralphm Huh? Doesn't BHM just tell the other side which markup dialect was used in the body?
  206. ralphm BMH
  207. daniel Yes. But I don't think anyone will ever use anything else
  208. daniel And then why bother having to rely on a second xep
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  214. Yagiza Ge0rG, which of above cannot be applied to XEP-0394?
  215. pep. I would just implement xhtml-im fwiw, maybe without CSS until we find a replacement. There is no good alternative for it as of today and deprecating it was a mistake.
  216. pep. Even then, CSS included in there is pretty simple, it's not CSS3
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  218. pep. 393 is fine as an input method, but that's about it
  219. ralphm pep.: the problem isn't which parts you use, it is how clients implement rendering, which is usually not checking the input and passing it to a generic HTML renderer
  220. pep. Yes, I just don't want to buy this argument, you can say that about pretty much anything
  221. oli lets not use the web
  222. ralphm I don't think the idea behind XEP-0394 is bad, as it provides a way to very explicitly mark up the plain text. Might be better if it was somehow combined with References.
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  224. oli references?
  225. ralphm https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0372.html
  226. ralphm And see also https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0385.html
  227. waqas I have very mixed feelings about xhtml-im, but the main thing I know about it is that every single client I looked at had RCE vulnerabilities.
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  229. pep. Because it was the only place with vulnerabilities right
  230. Yagiza pep., why not just improve XEP-0394 instead of trying to rip-off CSS from XEP-0071?
  231. waqas It was. I think I averaged 15 minutes each, across more than a handful of clients before seeing something dumb.
  232. waqas Including some native clients with embedded HTML, where RCE meant full local system access.
  233. Yagiza pep., also, what's nice about LML as input method? WYSIWYG is always better for and user, than LML.
  234. pep. Yagiza: yeah I don't really care about the input method tbh
  235. Yagiza pep., so, then. Why improved XEP-0394 is not better than ripped XHTML-IM?
  236. ralphm waqas: especially in MUC context, because it doesn't require direct contact and the amplification angle?
  237. oli ralphm: > And see also https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0385.html i don't understand what it has to do with markup and references.
  238. pep. Yagiza, Dismiss the comment about CSS. It's not that complex. If people want more stuff in security implications, let there be more stuff added. I don't think deprecating the xep altogether was the thing to do
  239. ralphm oli: XHTML-IM provides a way to include images
  240. oli ok
  241. oli xhtml-im includes a lot
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  243. ralphm oli: so SIMS helps achieving that in a similar way as XEP-0394 does. Also why I think they should be aligned, spec wise.
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  245. waqas Note that I'm neither for, nor against deprecation. I think it's a feature people may want. It was simply concerning how hard it was to find an implementation that was secure.
  246. oli Yagiza: which changes for xep0394 do you propose?
  247. oli where are the problems?
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  250. ralphm waqas: disconcerting indeed
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  252. ralphm By the way, XEP-0393 and XEP-0394 could totally co-exist.
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  256. Yagiza oli, add support for embedded images and hyperlinks.
  257. Yagiza oli, add normal "bold", "italic", "underscore" text decoration instead of strange "emphasis".
  258. Yagiza oli, add ability to specify font type, font size and text color.
  259. Yagiza oli, add ability to specify text alignment.
  260. Yagiza oli, add ability to remove list markers from the beginning of list item text when rendering.
  261. Ge0rG Yagiza [10:47]: > oli, add ability to specify font type, font size and text color. This will end up with clients sending 5px Comic Sans black on black, kthx
  262. Yagiza Ge0rG, as I said many times, any feature could be abused. We should deprecate XMPP itself, 'cause there are hundreds features in it which could be used for abuse.
  263. oli but it also get used. like in the mess we have with emails
  264. ralphm Yagiza: if those are your suggestions, then I'd rather have you look at the References stuff I just mentioned
  265. ralphm Also, if it were my client, I'd never implement font type, size, or color.
  266. oli supporting font size and color will be messy
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  269. oli monospace font has some value
  270. ralphm With backticks, sure
  271. oli everything else should be semantic markup only
  272. Yagiza oli, ralphm, it depends on what you are using it for.
  273. oli maybe xhtml-im is just the right way to do everything fancy
  274. Yagiza oli, yes, but it has flaws which XEP-0394 solves.
  275. Yagiza oli, so making XEP-0394 powerful enough, but without XHTML-IM flaws is a good way, I beleive.
  276. ralphm oli: I'd see the use of monospace for literals (one backtick) and code snippets (triple backticks) as purely semantic.
  277. ralphm Allowing users to specify font size, type, or color, just makes for a horrible mess. Like different clients/desktops having different default background colors.
  278. ralphm We have this XHTML-IM right now, and at some time patched Gajim to ignore those styles completely.
  279. oli maybe we could just encapsulate rfc822 messages
  280. oli would be super fun and messy
  281. Yagiza ralphm, author of XEP-0394 thinks about specifying not text color but only its hue and saturation. To allow client always make text contrast. So, that's not really a problem.
  282. Yagiza Inability to specify bold, italic and underscore in different combinations if much worse.
  283. ralphm I don't agree with the author then, that this is useful.
  284. oli have anyone thought about accessibility?
  285. Yagiza oli, what's wrong with accessibility? If contrast problem is solved, I guess no problem.
  286. ralphm I strongly think that markup should be semantic
  287. oli and i believe that xep-0393 is not very screen reader friendly
  288. ralphm E.g. while monospace for literals is nice, it doesn't work if you are in a terminal. Then you need some other way of rendering that differently. E.g. by setting a different background.
  289. ralphm oli: why not?
  290. oli i have to test it
  291. ralphm I'd say markdown-like syntaxes are actually very good for screen readers.
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  299. oli screen reader test: *one* _two_ `three`
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  302. oli »one underscore two underscore backquote three backquote«
  303. oli doesn't work well with android talkback
  304. oli ~talkback~ select-to-read
  305. jonas’ Yagiza, yes, you can adopt a deferred XEP, but I might retract XEP-0394 in the medium future actually
  306. Yagiza jonas’, so, I can try to publish my own XEP instead of that one?
  307. jonas’ you can also adopt it if you want
  308. jonas’ I’d be fine with that, since I want to go down other routes, I think
  309. Yagiza jonas’, that's nice
  310. jonas’ Yagiza, my original idea where to go with XEP-0394 was to enforce a specific plain-text representation of the different markup variants to have an automatic plaintext fallback
  311. jonas’ so e.g. a span marked with strong would have to be bracketed with *
  312. jonas’ but that was just the last idea I had
  313. Yagiza jonas’, IC
  314. Yagiza jonas’, anyway, we should think about the best way to implement that all.
  315. jonas’ I think we might end up with a revamped version of '71 actually
  316. oli so xep-0071 is security nightmare, xep-0393 horrible for screen readers and sexist, xep-0394 will be retracted
  317. MattJ oli, ok, what?
  318. jonas’ what
  319. oli lets just use plaintext.
  320. jonas’ sexist?
  321. jonas’ what did I miss here?
  322. oli gender gap doesnt work
  323. oli *professor*in*
  324. oli sexist
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  326. oli _professor_innen_
  327. jonas’ ah, that
  328. MattJ jonas’, ? enlighten me?
  329. daniel that’s going to require so much explaining
  330. jonas’ MattJ, in german, we have gender in nouns. the male version is the default.
  331. jonas’ then there’s the "in" suffix which makes it a female word
  332. jonas’ e.g. Lehrer (-> male teacher), Lehrerin (-> female teacher)
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  334. jonas’ now the male default is viewed as sexist by some (many even?), and also the restriction to two versions (male and female) as problematic
  335. jonas’ so some constructs such as Lehrer*In (kind of a wildcard thing) or Lehrer_In (symbolising the gap in the language to support all the cases) have been invented
  336. MattJ I see
  337. jonas’ in formal language, Lehrer/In was typical (but also only represents the two versions), LehrerIn has become a shorthand of that
  338. jonas’ (I even brought that up when XEP-0393 was discussed)
  339. MattJ Sounds like it's the German language that's sexist, not XEP-0393 :)
  340. jonas’ that’s true
  341. MattJ But yes, it highlights the fact that the XEP assumes these symbols are just free for it to use for its own purpose
  342. jonas’ it does
  343. oli i'm arguing all the time that we just change the german language, but without any succesd
  344. jonas’ oli, sounds like a plan, but in that case I’d actually like to see the "*" version; I like how globby it is :)
  345. oli what do you mean?
  346. jonas’ which part of my statement is unclear to yu?
  347. jonas’ which part of my statement is unclear to you?
  348. oli like to see the * version
  349. oli ?
  350. daniel fwiw this could potentially be fixed in the xep
  351. jonas’ making the non-existent grammar more complex?
  352. daniel but that’s not as cool as complaining about stuff
  353. jonas’ still waiting on Sams promise to deliver a formal grammar for the thing.
  354. daniel jonas’, one potential fix (of the two that i have in mind) would actually make things easier
  355. daniel although i would prefer the more complicated one. :-)
  356. oli jonas’: i would eliminate the multiple grammatical genders from the german language. problem solved
  357. oli okay, but what about screen readers?
  358. jonas’ oli, I like you, you repeat all the arguments I brought up a year ago :)
  359. jonas’ gives me the feeling I’m not totally outside of the norm
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  368. Yagiza If I adopt XEP-0394, it won't be retracted, so calm down.
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  373. Ge0rG Maybe XHTML-IM is just the wrong way to do anything. I don't want somebody else to be dictating how the text *I* shall read will look. I'm okay with the sender define monospace vs normal, and _maybe_ color hints from a predefined high contrast palette and _maybe_ relative font sizes for pasting headings.
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  378. oli for chat i'm happy with plain text. for everything else we could resurrect google wave
  379. jonas’ Ge0rG, so you want XHTML-IM :)
  380. jonas’ not the current one
  381. jonas’ but you want semantic markup
  382. jonas’ emphasis, monospace, headings
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  384. ralphm oli: I think that's a minority opinion.
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  387. oli better plain text than xep-0393. i'll try to disable it in conversations, later.
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  393. Syndace Couple of OMEMO questions: OMEMO defines KeyTransportMessages to be used to encrypt out-of-band non-message data like pictures or files or whatever you want. In reality these KTMs have become a tool to do manual ratchet forwarding/silent session creation in case a session is broken. So my question is: if you ever wanted to use KTMs for actual data, how would you even know, which KTM is for your photos, which one is for that pdf someone sent you and which one is just a ratchet forwarder? Is there any identification mechanism? If not, should we add one? And are there any XEPs using the KTM mechanism?
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  396. jonas’ Syndace, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0396.html this maybe?
  397. jonas’ if KeyTransportElement == KeyTransportMessage
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  401. Syndace jonas’: Thanks, it is ^^
  402. daniel Syndace: I think the original plan was to just reuse the element somewhere as a sub element
  403. Syndace daniel: That's how it's done in the XEP that jonas' linked, makes a lot of sense
  404. daniel And that would give you the context
  405. daniel Yes I don't like that xep for various reasons. But it is a good demonstration on how it was originally intended to be used
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  408. Syndace Okay cool. At least gives me a good hint on how to add KTMs to my lib...
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  414. ralphm oli: I don't understand. People _already_ type markup like this, and I like that Conversations takes those hints. I don't really like that it retains the markers, though. Other messaging systems don't, when they interpret the plain text.
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  417. jonas’ you must retain the markers when you make up markup out of thin air
  418. jonas’ if we just had an out-of-band way to signal that the markers really are intended for markup....
  419. pep. If only
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  421. daniel I by the way have a work around for the _programmier_innen_ problem that probably shouldn't cause side effects
  422. daniel Will test this for a while
  423. daniel https://share.gultsch.de/daniel/1YQ0Fftaz84JZmZY/6h4kux4-TpOxZZMXs-4-MQ.jpg
  424. daniel Coming up with the parsing rules Was a process. It doesn't mean it has to end there. It can still be modified
  425. daniel That's what experimental xeps are for
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  434. oli done. i just disabled ImStyleParser. now i can write underlines without the italics. make the _usenet_ great again.
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  436. ralphm jonas’: haha
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  482. ta > done. i just disabled ImStyleParser. now i can write underlines without the italics. make the _usenet_ great again. Actually i'd like to see that in expert preferencies
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  493. oli switching to propet old-school style?
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  614. vanitasvitae https://upload.jabberhead.tk:5443/f0a454a3b03d017a262dfcfef56c2235742e325d/EweL3J5ZnfVQjrwbMfBuVaKojAwCnCtP2ZS0BG6v/0pgTCrRQSVusm4QBS9oICg.jpg
  615. vanitasvitae When you just want to game a little bit...
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  620. ralphm ⚔️
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  634. alexde Hope it got a good multiplayer: https://repl.it/site/blog/multi ...
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