XSF Discussion - 2018-12-13

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  169. Zash Hm, memberbot doesn't tell me what I'm voting for
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  171. Zash Huh, xhtmlim bug?
  172. ralphm Worked fine for me (Conversations).
  173. Zash Not a client issue it seems
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  180. Zash It's sending <b> and <i>. Those aren't allowed per https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0071.html#def-text
  181. jonas’ that should only lead to them not having any effect
  182. jonas’ I think?
  183. jonas’ unsupported tags should be replaced with their content
  184. ralphm Yes
  185. Zash I can't do that.
  186. ralphm Huh?
  187. ralphm That's the most basic of HTML handling
  188. jonas’ although I’d argue that disallowed tags ≠ unsupported tags and disallowed tags should be dropped altogether. however, I’d go with replace with content even for disallowed.
  189. ralphm Ignore what you don't know
  190. ralphm Right
  191. Zash No, I'm saying that my sanitizing code can't do that.
  192. jonas’ although one could argue that disallowed tags ≠ unsupported tags and disallowed tags should be dropped altogether. however, I’d go with replace with content even for disallowed.
  193. Zash It's not possible to replace tags with text.
  194. Zash It must replace tags with tags or nothing.
  195. ralphm So you found two bugs
  196. Zash Now, the real question is: Where does the plain text <body> go?
  197. jonas’ Zash, it’s even worse, you need to be able to replace tags with mixed content
  198. jonas’ if you get sent <p>something <b>foo<i>bar</i>baz</b> something</p>, the result should be <p>something foobarbaz something</p> (assuming p is allowed)
  199. ralphm If a client supports XHTML-IM, it will ignore the body
  200. Zash But there was no <body>
  201. Zash or a message at all
  202. Zash I only received the "Approve (yes/no)" messages and I don't see where the others went
  203. ralphm I'd check out the bot and try out. I'd be surprised if it didn't send body
  204. Zash Lookl like Link Mauve already noticed this and https://github.com/linkmauve/memberbot/commit/4f539b8571c48f84129c284517f6bb692352247e
  205. ralphm Also note the body
  206. Zash Sure, but I didn't receive those at all for some reason
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  208. Zash So either my firewall ate them or my XHTML-IM filter ate them
  209. jonas’ tasty
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  222. dwd Afternoon, all.
  223. ralphm hi dwd
  224. ralphm set the topic to XSF Board Meeting | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  225. ralphm bangs gavel
  226. ralphm 0. Welcome + Agenda
  227. ralphm Welcome!
  228. ralphm Who do we have?
  229. nyco Hey
  230. Guus hi
  231. ralphm dwd asked us to discuss Compliance Suites, so there might be some Council members around to join for that item.
  232. Seve Hello :)
  233. dwd All things are possible.
  234. ralphm MattJ?
  235. Guus You can summon MattJ by mentioning him...
  236. dwd Ge0rG and Link Mauve?
  237. Guus normally
  238. Zash has left
  239. dwd Guus, You have to say MattJ three times in front of a mirror, I think.
  240. Guus My name has a similar, but different effect: the mirror breaks.
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  242. ralphm Mirror, mirror, who's the luast of all?
  243. dwd is on minutes, by the way.
  244. Guus thanks
  245. Seve dwd, thank you very much
  246. ralphm 1. Appointment of officers
  247. ralphm Alex has agreed to serve for another year as Secretary. I motion we reconfirm Alex Gnauck as our Secretary.
  248. Ge0rG is there for purposes of the Compliance Suite
  249. Guus +1
  250. Guus (you're here for many purposes, Ge0rG )
  251. Seve +1
  252. nyco +1
  253. ralphm Yay!
  254. ralphm Peter has agreed to serve for another year as Treasurer. I motion we reconfirm Peter Saint-André as our Treasurer.
  255. Guus +1
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  258. Seve +1
  259. ralphm nyco?
  260. ralphm Since we already have 3 votes, I'll say Yay again.
  261. Guus Thank you, Alex and Peter, for putting in the effort once again. Appreciated!
  262. ralphm Missing votes to follow
  263. ralphm On our Executive Director, Peter mentioned he didn't have time last week, but could this week. I haven't picked up on that, yet.
  264. nyco +1
  265. ralphm (thanks nyco)
  266. Guus (do we need the missing votes to confirm them? We have quorum, don't we?)
  267. nyco sorry
  268. ralphm Guus: we don't but I think it is nice if we have votes from all Directors.
  269. Seve I agree
  270. ralphm And chiming in with Guus thanking Peter and Alex.
  271. Seve as well
  272. ralphm 2. Compliance Suites
  273. MattJ Hey
  274. nyco ho
  275. MattJ Sorry, here now
  276. Guus (wow, sloooow mirror!)
  277. ralphm Hi MattJ, feel free to put in your votes.
  278. ralphm Meanwhile, dwd: go!
  279. MattJ +1 to Alex for Secretary, +1 to Peter for Teasurer
  280. ralphm dwd?
  281. dwd Oh, sorry - Ge0rG would be best to lead here.
  282. nyco I'll have to leave at 16:00
  283. Ge0rG We had a discussion in Council regarding what form Compliance Suites should take, but I'm not even sure what we wanted to escalate to Board
  284. nyco naming?
  285. dwd TThe thing to escalate was in terms of using them as a marketing tool, perhaps filtering the software the XSF lists, etc.
  286. nyco "XMPP 2019"?
  287. Ge0rG Ah, so compliant software. Yeah.
  288. Guus I don't think council needs board to approve naming?
  289. nyco please define "marketing tool"
  290. Guus I don't think council needs board to approve naming (of XEPs)?
  291. nyco agree with that, naming can be left to the Council
  292. Ge0rG We had a discussion about badges some years ago. So that compliant software can be marked as such with nifty labels
  293. ralphm Guus: some, most are Council's business
  294. Ge0rG I think the current technical form of CS is appropriate, if we can have a prominent link on the top of the XEP list
  295. dwd nyco, Well, that's it, isn't it? The Council merely noted that we don'tt do much as an organisation with the compliance suites - what marketing could we do with them?
  296. nyco badges can be cool, very visual, understandable in one eye shot, impactful I like that idea
  297. ralphm Badges comes up every time Compliance Suites are discussed
  298. jonas’ wants to enqueue himself for the Any Other Business section of the board meeting
  299. ralphm The problem is that someone needs to check, right?
  300. Ge0rG nyco: that opens the question of whether badges will be issued by XSF after some formal/automatic verification, or if everybody can just assign them on their own
  301. Ge0rG and what kind of abuse management mechanism we have then
  302. MattJ This same conversation :)
  303. MattJ There is no way we can verify who complies and who doesn't, so either the badges are free for everyone or we shouldn't have them
  304. jonas’ just like with trademarks, spot an infringement and sue them?
  305. nyco yep, qualification, certification, etc.
  306. jonas’ (of course, we can’t do that because manpower)
  307. MattJ I'd be totally fine with prominent links to the compliance suites, and treating them purely as guidance for developers
  308. ralphm I don't feel like being in the business of certifying
  309. Ge0rG "business" is a rather correct analogy, I fear
  310. dwd Sure, but we can also let people self-certify and pull this from them if they are clearly taking the piss.
  311. Ge0rG So what can we do, short of a certification business, to promote XMPP 2019?
  312. nyco I like this: https://www.coreinfrastructure.org/programs/badge-program/
  313. ralphm If someone claims their software complies with the suite, and they don't, well, let the intarntubes' scorn be on them.
  314. nyco it's declarative, but promote good/best practices
  315. MattJ dwd, "clearly" is still subjective, unfortunately
  316. Guus I think we, as the XSF should pace ourselves a bit here.
  317. nyco "intarntubes" 😉
  318. dwd Perhaps. But given that if people don't even claim a free thing, then that's a valuable signal in itself...
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  320. Guus I'd not object to run some sort of compliance checker in our domain, akin to what we do with xmpp.net (of which the state is itself somehwat unclear)
  321. Ge0rG xmpp.net is broken, not unclear ;)
  322. jonas’ although at the moment the only thing broken is the DNSSEC verification
  323. jonas’ which means that SRV records are not honoured for 99% of services
  324. ralphm And also not an XSF effort
  325. Guus Ge0rG part of the reason why it remains broken is that we don't know who's responsible, I thik.
  326. jonas’ MattJ did a lot of good work on it.
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  328. Ge0rG Guus: I think it's because the intersection of people who have the knowledge, the time and the power to fix is is empty.
  329. MattJ I have some time, I've put some work into it, fixed some stuff, but it still needs a little bit more - I'll get to it soon (but probably not before next week)
  330. Kev Isn't it mostly that it's abandoned upstream?
  331. nyco so the intersection of people who have the knowledge, the time and the power to do badges is empty as well?
  332. ralphm I'd be ok with someone designing an official badge, and letting people use that when they feel like they should show it.
  333. MattJ Kev, I've forked the repo and am fixing stuff, so happy to be the new upstream
  334. ralphm I'd have to be convinced to have compliance testing itself be an XSF activity
  335. MattJ ralphm, +1
  336. nyco let's ask lead devs: if they were badges, would you use them?
  337. MattJ Yes, probably
  338. Kev I doubt it.
  339. Ge0rG ralphm: it would probably make sense to have badges according to the compliance suite blocks, i.e. "core|advanced" "web|im|mobile" "client|server"
  340. Guus Ralph, I think that making the tools to do the checking available, could be an XSF activity
  341. ralphm Ge0rG: sure
  342. Ge0rG ralphm: it would probably make sense to have badges according to the compliance suite blocks, i.e. "core|advanced" "web|im|mobile" "client|server" *2019*
  343. dwd My advice to the Board would be: Make the badges, and if they're useless, drop them.
  344. MattJ Guus, no, the checking is next to impossible I'm afraid
  345. Guus But I'm not in favor of us doing the checking / publishing it, etc, other than to the extend what xmpp.net does for anyone that uses the tool.
  346. Ge0rG I'd use badges, except my client doesn't qualify because I don't consider Avatars a must-have.
  347. ralphm Guus: I think that building such tools is ambitious project
  348. ralphm an
  349. MattJ I stick to "impossible" :)
  350. Ge0rG large parts of CS can't be usefully tested automatically.
  351. Guus ralphm , I"m not saying 'build it'
  352. Guus I'm suggesting: host one, if someone builds it.
  353. ralphm MattJ: I'm a positive guy :-D
  354. Ge0rG But it would be awesome to have a client/server test suite that I could run my code against.
  355. nyco we can "test"/"validate" appetite for badges, with only a small prototype
  356. MattJ compliance.conversations.im is a good example. It's a great tool, but anyone could easily pass 100% by cheating
  357. ralphm Guus: oh, I mistook 'making' for 'building', then.
  358. dwd nyco, Right. You don't even need a checker. Maybe people won't take the piss.
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  360. ralphm Let's do this, as dwd also mentioned, ask if someone would like to design such badges.
  361. MattJ +1
  362. Ge0rG I'd say developers should be allowed to use the badge on their own, with a way for users to complain and the XSF to revoke badges.
  363. Seve I'm not sure about this. Badges should be something you can trust. And nobody is going to endorse those, from what I understand.
  364. Guus but, to address dwd's suggestion: I don't see anything wrong with linking a set of badges to the compliance suite xeps
  365. nyco maybe we should not start with the design, which is costly
  366. ralphm Then, if we have such a person, they can work with Council regarding what they should include.
  367. MattJ nyco, it may be possible to find someone willing to donate time
  368. ralphm nyco: we've already have had the Suites themselves. I don't see people putting the text around their clients, so a badge is then what we can do. If we don't start with design, what then?
  369. nyco for example, instead instead of an automated testing system, we can start with a crowdsourced testing system
  370. Ge0rG yeah, we shouldn't start out with tasking a commercial designer, rather ask for volunteers
  371. ralphm nyco: while I am not against that idea, I don't think it should be an XSF activity.
  372. ralphm And I didn't mention paying for a design.
  373. nyco 16:01
  374. nyco "costly" does not forcefully mean "money", can mean time, effort, delay...
  375. lorddavidiii has left
  376. dwd is now in another meeting, and will catch up with Minutes later...
  377. MattJ If we don't have anyone in the community, there are people I'd be happy to reach out to
  378. ralphm So far I've seen two +1 (me and MattJ) and one +0 (Guus).
  379. ralphm What do we do?
  380. Guus for what: create a batch?
  381. Ge0rG I think the Board should decide whether such implementation badges should be hosted on xmpp.org or if they can be hosted by the respective implementations.
  382. ralphm Ge0rG: I'd be ok with hosting it themselves, and adding to our lists when they do
  383. Ge0rG And then whether Badges are assigned explicitly by the XSF, or whether implementations can claim a badge and we have a way to retract that.
  384. Guus ralphm, "adding to our lists" <-- what do you mean, exactly, with that?
  385. ralphm Ge0rG: I am not in favor of assigning them explicitly
  386. MattJ I'd like them to still be within the control of the XSF, and enforce some basic constraints on their use... like linking them to a specific place
  387. ralphm Guus: https://xmpp.org/software/
  388. Ge0rG Something like: "Developers are allowed to display the respective badge if they are in good belief that their implementation complies with the respective part of CS. This can be disputed by users, upon which the XSF may retract this right from a developer"
  389. nyco if Compliances Suites are a responsibility/duty of the XSF, I see badges as the same
  390. ralphm MattJ: like we had with Jabber Powered?
  391. MattJ Yes
  392. Ge0rG The list that contains Pidgin as an endorsed XMPP client.
  393. MattJ Yes
  394. Guus I'm not in favor of adding badges to our lists of software. I am +1 of having badges created that can be used freely by others.
  395. ralphm I like that
  396. Ge0rG Guus: "freely" is too free for me, personally.
  397. Guus Ge0rG we won't be able to enforce anything anyway
  398. nyco I'm gone, sorry
  399. Guus Thanks nyco
  400. ralphm Guus: my idea was that a project wants to, when they register their software, we could include a way to say if they want to carry the badge in their entry. It wouldn't be an endorsement.
  401. Ge0rG Guus: we will be if badges are only shown on the XSF pages ;)
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  403. Guus badges can very easily be copied.
  404. Ge0rG Using a trademark on the badges will allow control over how they may be used.
  405. ralphm Guus: we would if the XSF retains the rights on the badge and have a policy.
  406. Ge0rG We don't need hundreds of pages of legalese for that.
  407. Ge0rG But e.g. the Bluetooth logo is managed in that way.
  408. Guus ralphm I'm pretty sure that people we don't want to use the badge, won't care about our policy.
  409. Guus They'd simply use it in their software / download page, whatever.
  410. Kev I think the XSF being in a position to revoke would be a painful thing for us.
  411. nyco has left
  412. Kev We /know/ that people tend to ... exaggerate compliance with things.
  413. Ge0rG Kev: what's your alternative suggestion?
  414. ralphm Guus: let scorn be on them
  415. Ge0rG Guus: having the legal right to enforce doesn't mean making use of that right.
  416. jonas’ don’t you lose trademark rights if you don’t enforce them?
  417. Guus ralphm exactly - which is why I'm fine with _having badges_ to be used by others. I'm against us assigning specific badges to specific projects though (on our site)
  418. Kev It does unless you want it to be useless.
  419. Seve I don't see the point of the badges if we cannot make people trust the badges.
  420. Kev If you want badges (and I'm not convinced they're adding any value at all, but whatever), I think the best you can hope for is the same as claiming compliance at the moment. It's a claim.
  421. Ge0rG I see the point, but there are really only three options here: 1. explicitly white-list badge-bearers (can be still worked around) 2. have a policy for self-assessment and retraction 3. allow everyone to claim everything and ignore violations
  422. Seve Unless the badges are just for guidance and we don't endorse it officially
  423. ralphm https://web.archive.org/web/20060307012614/http://jabberpowered.org:80/
  424. Kev But it's not clear to me what problem the badges are solving, either.
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  426. Guus if someone wants to fly a banner, claiming compliancy with a certain XEP, I'd be OK for us to provide a uniform design to that. I want to prevent us from listing things as 'compliant' though.
  427. ralphm I suggest everybody here has a look at that, think about whether we want something like it for badges and continue this discussion next week.
  428. ralphm Guus: I can see that
  429. Kev Guus: Which is exactly the state at the moment with saying you support CS2018, I think.
  430. Guus before we hammer off - @jonas' had an AOB.
  431. Guus Kev, exactly, but with a fancy colorful badge.
  432. Guus (which might add a uniform way of recognizing things, at best)
  433. jonas’ is this intended to have Approving Body Council? https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0381.html
  434. jonas’ it doesn’t make sense to me, but maybe that’s just me
  435. ralphm 3. AOB
  436. Ge0rG > and will not alter the official Logo in any way, including its size 🤔
  437. ralphm Ge0rG: we can modify all the terms, it just something we did before, and might be a good start for the rest of the discussion
  438. Guus @jonas' at first glance, I think you're right. Council does not approve SIGs.
  439. Guus jonas' at first glance, I think you're right. Council does not approve SIGs.
  440. ralphm jonas’: agreed, Board should be the approving body
  441. jonas’ suggestion: I change the approving body to board and re-issue the LC
  442. ralphm Given this has been in the queue for two years, I'm not sure if it still makes sense
  443. Ge0rG ralphm: I really like it
  444. ralphm jonas’: ok
  445. jonas’ the LC might be a good way to figure it out -- and to move it to rejected if not needed.
  446. ralphm indeed
  447. Guus jonas’ : agreed.
  448. ralphm And whether its authors still want it
  449. ralphm Anything else?
  450. ralphm 4. Date of Next
  451. !xsf_martin has joined
  452. ralphm +1W
  453. ralphm 5. Close
  454. ralphm Thanks all!
  455. Guus do we need a formal third +1 for Jonas' question?
  456. ralphm bangs gavel
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  458. ralphm Guus: I don't think so. Clearly a typo
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  460. Seve Thank you very much everybody :)
  461. ralphm And we just missed it on our radar. Also nobody asked about it.
  462. ralphm set the topic to XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  463. Guus I don't think it works that way, even if it's a typo, but, fine. 🙂
  464. ralphm Guus: well, Council cannot approve SIGs
  465. ralphm so...
  466. Guus that's true
  467. ralphm So the logical conclusion is that we are the approving body
  468. ralphm It just popped up on the radar because Council has been listing all the open LCs
  469. jonas’ s/Council/Editor/, but yeah
  470. ralphm I stand corrected
  471. jonas’ need to re-issue them for this term
  472. ralphm aye
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  474. Guus MattJ : thanks for taking over the upstream stuff for xmpp.net - would you mind putting it all in one place?
  475. Guus meaning: clone everything, even if you didn't modify it yet, in one account under either github or bitbucket (or whatever)?
  476. Kev has left
  477. Guus It's somewhat confusing (to me) to figure out what part of the software lives where, and who's maintaining it. I'd love to have one account where this all is listed.
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  479. Guus I'd not be against creating an xmpp.net github repo, just for this, outside of XSF control.
  480. Guus (my board hat was off, there)
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  482. Guus Also, feel free to add me to any such org.
  483. Ge0rG I've heard there is an org called JabberSPAM now.
  484. Ge0rG Oh, I think that org would actually need an XSF seal of approval.
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  486. jonas’ JabberSPAM?
  487. jonas’ certainly for TM use
  488. Guus We'll get you the T-Shirt, Ge0rG
  489. Guus when its approved, obviously.
  490. ralphm Ge0rG: can you send an email to Board about this?
  491. jonas’ trademark@
  492. ralphm Because indeed, that might be a TM issue
  493. ralphm jonas’: that, too, yes
  494. jonas’ trademark@jabber.org is the official address for TM issues AFAIK
  495. jjrh has left
  496. ralphm jonas’: I also wanted Board, because Peter isn't our ED anymore, and I'm unsure who's handling this now
  497. jonas’ I see
  498. Ge0rG We need to fix https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/jabber-trademark/license-decision-process.html then
  499. ralphm I'll include this in the chat with Peter
  500. Ge0rG ralphm: AFAIR, board@ is moderators-only
  501. ralphm Good point
  502. Ge0rG eh, members-only
  503. Ge0rG So there is no way to contact Board.
  504. Ge0rG ralphm: also mention his comment on https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/200
  505. ralphm Just send it to that address and me. There's also info@xmpp.org, but that's probably also Peter, so we need to figure that out.
  506. ralphm Since he's still an officer of the corporation, I'm sure it is fine
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  510. Ge0rG ralphm: sent to info@ and to you
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  513. lnj Is here someone who could create me an account on the wiki?
  514. Ge0rG lnj: yeah
  515. lnj Ge0rG, Could you create one for me or how does that work?
  516. Ge0rG lnj: I need your email address and the desired CamelCase username.
  517. Ge0rG lnj: via PM is alright
  518. lnj ... wait a sec .. need to start gajim for pms
  519. Ge0rG lnj: xmpp:georg@yax.im if that's better
  520. Guus assuming that your email address is the first thing that you'll post on the public wiki, maybe a PM isn't that important?
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  592. jonas’ Kev, nudge nudge https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/718
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  612. Kev I don't think I was aware of that, let me mail myself.
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  617. Neustradamus Jabberspam -> Safety Jabber, you can search on ML
  618. Neustradamus https://safetyjabber.com/ https://android.safetyjabber.com https://sj.ms/ https://safetyapps.zone/sjim.html http://safetyjabbercom.blogspot.com/ https://sjsoftwaredev.com/sj-im/ ...
  619. Ge0rG Neustradamus: I can't even...
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  626. ralphm Uhm https://safetyjabber.com/trademarks.php
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  632. genofire Neustradamus: Skype usw PGP ? 🤣
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  650. Ge0rG ralphm: it's an interesting question whether you can enforce trademark on a substring.
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  660. ralphm I'm sure that Cisco has ways
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  662. moparisthebest Ge0rG, write a new RDBMS named SafetyOracleDatabase and let us know how it goes :)
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