XSF Discussion - 2018-12-17

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11:19:57 Holger Kev: A while back we were discussing silent APNS notifications, I think I promised to look up the docs on their unreliability. FWIW I now stumbled over them again: > APNs sends a limited number of silent notifications---notifications with the content-available key---per day. In addition, if the device has already exceeded its power budget for the day, silent notifications are not sent again until the power budget resets, which happens once a day. https://developer.apple.com/documentation/usernotifications/setting_up_a_remote_notification_server/sending_notification_requests_to_apns
11:20:20 Holger Also the description of the `apns-priority` field, and this: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/usernotifications/setting_up_a_remote_notification_server/pushing_updates_to_your_app_silently
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11:21:06 Holger (But either way Daniel's suggestion to use this would probably do the trick on recent iOS versions: <https://developer.apple.com/documentation/usernotifications/modifying_content_in_newly_delivered_notifications>)
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11:31:04 Ge0rG Holger: how does that relate to the proposal of sending stripped down stanzas to the push server (only XML meta-data)
11:34:14 Holger Ge0rG: As you probably know, Chris' solution is to use high-prio notifications which don't wake the app but generate a lock-screen notification instead (and pressing that wakes the app). So he was interested in getting more info regarding the stanza that triggered the notification, in order to not generate lock screen notifications for stanzas without message body.
11:35:05 Ge0rG Holger: I think that Anu is also working on content-modifications.
11:35:33 Ge0rG Holger: yeah, but the high-prio vs. low prio thing somehow escalated
11:35:46 Ge0rG and then it was buried for half a year and nobody remembers any more what the best solution was
11:36:57 Holger With escalation you mean my stripped-down-stanza suggestion? :-) Chris' solution was/is basically to have the XMPP server distinguish between high/low prio, while I thought we might want to be more flexible in the future, i.e. for Jingle calls, MUC invitations, or whatever.
11:37:42 Holger But if that content-modification thing does the trick, maybe we can forget about all that and get away with silent notifications after all. At least to get iOS working.
11:38:33 Holger "Content modification" also allows omitting/removing the lock-screen notification altogether?
11:39:12 Ge0rG Holger: I don't know about the last point
11:39:31 Holger Ge0rG: BTW I don't quite understand the story with Monal. I thought it has that VoIP flag which would allow for silent high-prio notifications.
11:40:20 Holger Apparently it either doesn't use those or they aren't reliable either. Not sure how the VoIP flag helps then.
11:40:53 Ge0rG Holger: the latest Monal beta is working fine on yax.im, but apparently not on other servers.
11:41:07 Ge0rG Holger: not sure which kind of notifications it's using
11:41:13 Holger Hmm.
11:41:22 Ge0rG the whole thing is super complex, as other XEP implementations also play a role (CSI especially)
11:42:12 Holger Yeah, I'm into *that* part of the complexity, but I'm clueless what happens once the notification reaches push.monal.im :-)
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11:42:27 Ge0rG just summoned the Monal developer. Hi Anu!
11:42:36 Anu Hi
11:42:44 Anu What questions can I answer?
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11:43:12 Holger Anu: Hah, ignore my 1:1 messages then.
11:43:17 Anu Hahah
11:43:33 Ge0rG The first question was whether you can delete / merge newly-delivered-notification, to which the answer was "yes"
11:43:46 Anu Yes
11:44:09 Ge0rG Anu: what kind of information do you need on the push server to determine whether to send a low-prio / high-prio / no push message?
11:44:31 Anu Holger: Sorry I’m just waking up over here
11:44:56 Holger Anu: There's no hurry :-)
11:45:28 Holger Anu: A while back you said that the APNS notifications you're using won't (necessarily?) wake Monal if it was swiped away.
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11:45:46 Holger Anu: But doesn't Monal have this VoIP flag which would allow for silent high-prio notifications?
11:46:14 Anu The push channel on monal at least just a signal and is silent (on or off) the actual logic happens entirely in xmpp. The push is not the notification, the notification is generated by the client manually not the server. This is why I can look at older messages and modify
11:46:32 Holger Right.
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11:46:52 Anu It only gets silent high priority notifications that resume/launch the app
11:47:30 Ge0rG Anu: I thought you can't have silent *and* high-prio in the same notification
11:47:41 Anu Swiping away will launch monal but in circumstances where the device is locked, it is not able to unlock the encrypted keychain
11:47:49 Holger That's the idea of using 'silent' APNS notifications, right? I understand that they're usually throtteld by Apple. But I thought they're reliable for VoIP apps. Nevertheless they don't seem to be reliable for Monal?
11:47:52 Holger Ah.
11:48:00 Anu Monal is a special case blessed by Apple :)
11:48:34 Ge0rG Anu: if Monal wasn't a VoIP blessed app, how would you work around that?
11:52:46 Ge0rG We need XEP-0357 to also work for the non-VoIP use case
11:56:25 Anu If it weren’t the then the notification could still be silent but notifications will fail when the app is closed and in those cases the notification text should be generated by the server in a second notification
11:56:55 Anu So either the message body comes in the notification’s payload
11:56:59 Ge0rG Anu: by the XMPP server or by the push server?
11:57:09 Anu Yes
11:57:24 Anu But since the whole design is the push server shouldn’t see the text
11:57:25 Ge0rG Anu: sending the message body over third-party channels is a security violation
11:57:30 Anu Yes
11:57:46 Ge0rG so you'd have to send something like "You received a message"
11:58:01 Ge0rG `push_notification_important_body = "Important message";`
11:58:07 Anu So the xmpp server would need to see if the message was fetched after x amount of time
11:58:28 Anu If not send a second non silent push message saying “you have a messag”
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11:58:46 Ge0rG Anu: shouldn't the push server figure that out?
11:59:35 Ge0rG i.e. XMPP server sends a message skeleton to push.monal.im, the push service attempts a silent notification and if that fails re-attempts with a "loud" one, if there was an actual message
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12:00:05 Anu Push server is largely one way
12:00:38 Ge0rG I'd rather not encode retry timing into the XMPP server
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12:01:38 Anu Failure does come on the apns feedback channel but that means the token is likely invalid
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12:01:46 Anu Apple is paranoid and rotates then
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12:03:30 Ge0rG Anu: so there is no feedback about whether the app actually was notified?
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12:03:56 Ge0rG Anu: it would be great to collect some numbers on how well silent vs. non-silent notifications work and what the delays are in practice
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12:06:53 Holger I think from user feedback it's obvious that silent notifications alone won't do the trick.
12:07:32 Anu I don’t think so, they update it every year so I can take a look
12:07:35 Anu Brb baby duties. Will be back in 30 min
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12:09:30 Holger As I said above I was hoping that this thing might do the trick (for iOS >= 10): https://developer.apple.com/documentation/usernotifications/modifying_content_in_newly_delivered_notifications
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12:10:33 Holger At least if it also allows for removing the lock-screen notification altogether.
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12:16:16 Anu Yeah an extension is just launching the app
12:16:41 genofire has left
12:16:50 Anu Yeah an extension is just launching the app
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12:43:09 Anu The extension would be a new app
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12:43:32 Anu Sorry back
12:43:33 Anu Baby
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12:44:16 Anu Technically the extension is th opposite of monal but should work and have a similar effect.
12:44:26 Anu I am adding logic for where it can’t download
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12:44:59 Anu The only issue is that like most of the world things are http focused.
12:45:30 Anu In the case of xmpp, the extension would be a new app that opens a new connection (and resource)
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12:45:50 Anu I have a share extension and wen through some fun hoops to hide that
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12:49:03 Anu I’m very interested in more feedback on pushes on monal, I have never had any fail. If notifications don’t show up it’s usually the case that the push arrives but monal does not download a message
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12:51:55 Ge0rG Anu: or Monal can't resume the session for some reasons.
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12:52:44 Anu On jabb3r, yeah I’ve noticed this too but on yax it has
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12:53:02 Anu Thus the muc experience
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12:53:18 Ge0rG Anu: were you able to pinpoint why it fails?
12:53:36 Anu No, the actual
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12:53:47 Anu Interaction is identical
12:54:10 Anu It tries to resume and then receives an error
12:54:33 Anu I thought it was monal too but the past week of testing muc with yax
12:54:40 Anu It seems not to be the case
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12:57:19 Anu Now that I know it’s not client side, will good to actually debug on jabb3r now
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12:57:56 Anu Georg: as you know from your iOS device, notifications come in ( in excess) :)
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13:00:39 Ge0rG ~~Anu: maybe Monal fails to resume within the 5 minutes timeout on jabb3r.org? I've got 30 minutes on yaxi~~ ✎
13:00:49 Ge0rG Anu: maybe Monal fails to resume within the 5 minutes timeout on jabb3r.org? I've got 30 minutes on yax.im ✏
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13:01:23 Anu With push the stream is supposed to never expire isn’t it?
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13:02:34 jonas’ I don’t think that’s true
13:02:45 jonas’ that’s an implementation detail of some implementations (ejabberd)
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13:02:57 jonas’ it gives you a certain time until after the first push to connect
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13:03:39 Anu Ah
13:03:42 Holger I *think* Prosody's mod_cloud_notify has a similar hack, but of course not all servers will have that enabled. (And either way there's still *some* timeout, just a longer one.)
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13:27:20 Anu Man push notifications are a pain
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13:28:06 Holger They are.
13:28:24 Holger But why is the session thing so essential? I thought Monal supports MAM?
13:28:28 Anu It’s really not that bad for other protocols
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13:28:59 Holger It's also not that bad on Android ;-) Because silent notifications 'just work'.
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13:29:09 Anu The diversity of configs and server software makes it really hard to deliver to consistent experience
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13:29:37 Anu Android isn’t really a privacy focused os though
13:29:54 Anu So there’s a lot more wiggle room (and rope to hang with )
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13:30:09 Holger True. My point is just that I think the biggest pain here is the unreliable silent notifications.
13:30:10 Holger Whatever.
13:30:28 Anu Yeah
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13:30:39 Anu I think the notifications are working
13:30:47 Holger If resumption fails, won't you receive the message from MAM?
13:30:49 Anu The issue is client side
13:30:54 Anu Yes
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13:31:23 Anu I don’t show notifications for mam messages
13:31:29 Holger Ah, why not?
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13:32:28 Holger I would do that. You can't safely assume the message has been seen elsewhere just because you got it from MAM.
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13:34:35 Anu It was generating excessive notifications
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13:34:46 Holger So then you'd not have to worry about session timeouts, the experience will be the same either way. I think 0198 should just be seen as an optional optimization.
13:34:47 Holger Hmmmm.
13:35:07 Anu Yeah if the resume fails it just connects like normal
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13:35:22 Anu Why I am puzzled by people not getting notifications
13:35:30 Anu Apns is officially best effort
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13:35:55 Anu But in about 8 years or working with it I have never seen a notification fail to deliver
13:36:01 Anu I’ve seen delays
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13:36:23 Anu But that’s usually cell network issue
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13:36:51 Holger I think the APNS throttling tries to be magic in that it depends on various factors such as the app usage, the battery, and whatnot?
13:37:01 Holger So I guess it might be normal that experience differs?
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13:37:56 Holger With haven't tested Monal too much (my test iPad somehow doesn't like it) but with ChatSecure I had missing notifications all day long until Chris switched to high-prio notifications (which work reliably indeed).
13:38:02 Holger s/With/I/
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14:00:50 Ge0rG Holger [14:30]: > If resumption fails, won't you receive the message from MAM? Except that failing resumption does the weirdest things to the messages in the SM queue.
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14:02:48 Holger Maybe, but that won't explain missing notifications/messages.
14:03:17 Holger I mean, Monal not notifying on MAM messages would explain it I guess :-)
14:05:22 Ge0rG The right thing is to de-duplicate between local history, MAM and offline messages, and to notify on *new* ones
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14:05:48 Ge0rG Except... you need to delay until you processed everything because you might have answered some of those from another device
14:07:03 Ge0rG And this is where you need a Ph.D. to write a simple XMPP client.
14:07:15 Holger The latter behavior would be nice to have (where 'answers' could include chat markers/whatever), but that's kinda optional I think.
14:08:02 Holger I think for the moment it would be good enough to (1) deduplicate using the stanza ID (no Ph.D. required) and (2) notify on all messages (MAM or live).
14:09:09 Holger Not sure how notifications on MAM messages generate a flood? Maybe a full query of a large MAM archive for the first time or something?
14:09:13 Ge0rG Holger: (1) only works on private messages from clients that generate unique IDs; (2) ITYM "notify on *new* messages (MAM or live)"
14:09:32 Ge0rG Holger: if you notify on each message, you'll end up flooded
14:09:43 Holger I mean the server's stanza ID?
14:10:07 Ge0rG Ah, so you mean the stanza ID and not the stanza ID. Yes.
14:10:19 Holger Of course.
14:10:30 Ge0rG Sorry for my misunderstanding.
14:10:37 Holger I.e. depend on mam:2 for deduplication (unless you have a Ph.D. and too much time).
14:10:43 Ge0rG So how do you deduplicate *sent* messages based on stanza ID?
14:11:19 Holger Okay, (1) dedup incoming, (2) make your damn Ph.D., (3) dedup outgoing.
14:11:35 Ge0rG Some days ago, I received multiple copies of the same message from an IRC transport, and the copies (routed to different of my resources, of which one was offline) had different message IDs.
14:11:42 Ge0rG Also different stanza IDs
14:12:01 Ge0rG There should be a XEP describing how to dedup
14:12:02 Holger I'd use one of the other IDs for outgoing. But yes that's not nice.
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14:43:29 Anu A reminder that xmpp is a brutally complicated protocol. :)
14:43:53 Anu Super powerful but often conflicting
14:44:00 Ge0rG This is so sad.
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14:44:24 Zash Emergent complexity!
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14:44:46 Ge0rG Emergency.
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14:49:54 Anu So on other protocols we’ve esp for mobile we’ve ditched the idea of being offline. Things are down based on devices registered
14:50:10 Anu Deduping on a guid associated with every message
14:50:20 Ge0rG Anu: yeah, that's a great approach but XMPP isn't there yet
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14:51:58 Anu I just discovered how to query mam archives in reverse chronological order
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14:52:08 Anu Thanks Georg
14:52:15 Anu That will probably help too
14:52:29 Ge0rG Anu: I'm not sure it's a good idea to query them in reverse
14:52:37 Anu Ux
14:52:44 Ge0rG Anu: some messages contain back-references, like LMC
14:52:50 Anu You want to see newest first and the pull the older ones later
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14:53:00 Anu Lmc?
14:53:14 Ge0rG Anu: so now you need to cache the newer message that references an old one until the old one has arrived. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0308.html Last Message Correction
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14:53:32 Anu Oh fun
14:53:48 Anu The problem with my current mam
14:53:55 Ge0rG Anu: okay, pulling in the last 50 in linear order won't save you from that
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14:53:59 Anu Is 90 percent of hemtime I use my phone
14:54:17 Anu When I go to my iPad or laptop it starters to get every message since I last used it
14:54:19 Holger Ge0rG: It's not mandatory to support LMC though.
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14:54:30 Ge0rG Holger: nothing is mandatory. What's your point?
14:54:50 Ge0rG BTW, LMC would be a good addition to cs-2019, cc jonas’
14:54:54 Anu And what I really care about is most recent, I can pull down to get more if I need more
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14:55:05 Holger Ge0rG: My point is I would not let my MAM retrieval strategy depend on XEP-0308.
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14:55:43 Holger If the original message isn't within the chunk I got from MAM, so be it. If the user scrolls up, he'll receive it. Probably. The server might've ditched it already anyway.
14:55:43 Ge0rG Anu: then you need to mark a message with an LMC for something that you haven't fetched yet and merge them when the user pulls down
14:55:56 Anu Yeah
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14:56:06 Ge0rG LMC is just one example of message references.
14:56:11 Anu Basically some tie breaker logic
14:56:26 Holger And my point would probably remain the same for any other examples.
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14:56:40 Holger There's no guarantee you get the original message anyway.
14:56:52 Ge0rG No guarantee, no.
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14:56:59 Holger So don't make XMPP life even complicater than it is anyway.
14:57:01 Anu Yeah it’s based on age and archiving preferences
14:57:19 Ge0rG said the server developer.
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14:58:01 Anu Holger: quick question, monal works on the iPad 2 up
14:58:10 Anu Basically every iPad but the original
14:58:21 Anu What do you have? It should work for you
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14:58:45 Holger Anu: I can no longer reproduce the crashes. It seemed like it was triggered by some MAM message which is no longer retrieved (not sure why, I'll have to look).
14:58:49 Anu There were a few ui glitches recently but I’ve been fixing those
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14:59:03 Anu Also I’ve fixed a lot of crashes
14:59:17 Holger Ah yes I did update recently, maybe it was due to your fixes.
14:59:27 Anu I fix them as soon as they come in to crashlytics and put our an update the same day
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14:59:57 Anu When I am working on it there is a release nightly for betas and weekly for prod
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15:00:06 Holger Very cool.
15:00:17 Holger I'll have to look into the MAM thing but other than that I'm happy :-) Unfortunately I can also reproduce missing push notifications though---even with normal live messages.
15:00:26 Anu 2 week sprints, crashlytics is my feedback loop
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15:00:46 Anu Any particular server?
15:00:50 Holger Now that it's no longer crashing, I'll be much better with looking at the traffic and things.
15:00:55 Holger I'm using conversations.im for testing.
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15:01:13 Anu I realize all the servers I’ve tested with have been prosody, made a balbber.im account to test with ejabberd
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15:01:46 Anu On the betas there is a log at the bottom of settings, it’s the devices console
15:01:57 Anu So it prints out the full stream and all errors there
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15:02:40 Anu New release coming out today btw
15:02:56 Holger Right now I'm using the release, I'd be happy to switch to the betas.
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15:03:02 Anu I added muting becuae the notifications are a little too good esp with muc
15:03:08 Holger Heh.
15:03:12 Anu Switch to the betas on my website
15:03:21 Anu Better if you are a developer
15:04:00 Ge0rG Anu: I suggest two things: - collect all new messages per JID/MUC until sync is completed - don't make notifications if you see recent activity from another device
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15:04:03 Anu https://testflight.apple.com/join/RjIlyvqa
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15:04:36 Anu Hmm
15:04:59 Anu Might be the right approach
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15:05:57 Holger Anu: Installed, thanks.
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15:06:40 Anu If messsges fail to arrive take a look at the log, it’s pretty raw but you can see every stanza sent and receives
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15:07:04 Anu If you see anything wrong let me know I can usually have a fix up in a few hours
15:07:08 Holger Yes that's very useful.
15:07:27 Holger Awesome to see you being so active.
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15:11:51 Anu The more feedback the better, I can’t really test everything myself so it’s great when others let me know when they see bugs :)
15:12:02 Ge0rG Anu: did you implement LMC already? :D
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15:13:31 Anu Not in develop branch yet
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15:14:26 Anu Soon
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15:38:45 Anu It will be there soon though, I have a lot of feyures that I am sitting on becuase I need to put our bug fixes
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15:39:08 Anu And I generally dont do major features and bug fixes in the same releases
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15:53:26 jonas’ Ge0rG, re LMC + CS-2019: PR please?
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15:54:08 Ge0rG jonas’: last time you asked for ML and not for PR :>
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15:55:20 jonas’ I don’t care, I take either
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15:56:03 Ge0rG jonas’: any chance to demote Avatars from Core to Advanced? :D
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15:56:22 jonas’ hm, not sure
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15:57:11 Zash Mmmmmm, does Avatars depend on PEP+ / 222?
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16:31:14 Ge0rG So now that Logitech is discontinuing XMPP support on their Harmony smart remote control, I first time hear about that support: https://twitter.com/smkelly/status/1074494850815455232
16:31:20 Ge0rG XMPP Marketing at its best
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16:45:26 Anu Funny I know a lot of iot devices use xmpp
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16:45:39 Anu Robot vacuums for example
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16:50:39 Ge0rG It'd be great to fill the IoT page under https://xmpp.org/uses/ with specific examples, akin to Online Games; instead of a generic definition of what IoT is about
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16:51:47 Zash 👍
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16:59:21 Ge0rG I'm sure we've had that discussion before, and I'm sure I wrote an issue for it already, but I can't find it.
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17:03:22 Ge0rG Zash, Anu: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/490
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17:15:08 moparisthebest Guy on curl mailing list is asking for advice about how to implement 'push notifications' with curl as the client
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17:16:00 moparisthebest Someone mentioned you could make a request and wait for server to respond, guy asked "but what if the server has something to send and the client has lost connection"
17:16:02 Ge0rG curl does xmpp now?
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17:16:23 moparisthebest Inb4 re implementing xmpp poorly on top of http
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17:16:50 moparisthebest No but I'm thinking of suggesting he use xmpp instead of http
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17:17:52 Zash BOSH?
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17:18:30 Ge0rG isn't that the company that provided emission manipulation devices to Volkswagen?
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17:22:36 Ge0rG Anu: could you add your vacuums to the issue?
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