HolgerKev: A while back we were discussing silent APNS notifications, I think I promised to look up the docs on their unreliability. FWIW I now stumbled over them again:
> APNs sends a limited number of silent notifications---notifications with the content-available key---per day. In addition, if the device has already exceeded its power budget for the day, silent notifications are not sent again until the power budget resets, which happens once a day.
https://developer.apple.com/documentation/usernotifications/setting_up_a_remote_notification_server/sending_notification_requests_to_apns
HolgerAlso the description of the `apns-priority` field, and this: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/usernotifications/setting_up_a_remote_notification_server/pushing_updates_to_your_app_silently
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Holger(But either way Daniel's suggestion to use this would probably do the trick on recent iOS versions: <https://developer.apple.com/documentation/usernotifications/modifying_content_in_newly_delivered_notifications>)
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Ge0rGHolger: how does that relate to the proposal of sending stripped down stanzas to the push server (only XML meta-data)
HolgerGe0rG: As you probably know, Chris' solution is to use high-prio notifications which don't wake the app but generate a lock-screen notification instead (and pressing that wakes the app). So he was interested in getting more info regarding the stanza that triggered the notification, in order to not generate lock screen notifications for stanzas without message body.
Ge0rGHolger: I think that Anu is also working on content-modifications.
Ge0rGHolger: yeah, but the high-prio vs. low prio thing somehow escalated
Ge0rGand then it was buried for half a year and nobody remembers any more what the best solution was
HolgerWith escalation you mean my stripped-down-stanza suggestion? :-) Chris' solution was/is basically to have the XMPP server distinguish between high/low prio, while I thought we might want to be more flexible in the future, i.e. for Jingle calls, MUC invitations, or whatever.
HolgerBut if that content-modification thing does the trick, maybe we can forget about all that and get away with silent notifications after all. At least to get iOS working.
Holger"Content modification" also allows omitting/removing the lock-screen notification altogether?
Ge0rGHolger: I don't know about the last point
HolgerGe0rG: BTW I don't quite understand the story with Monal. I thought it has that VoIP flag which would allow for silent high-prio notifications.
HolgerApparently it either doesn't use those or they aren't reliable either. Not sure how the VoIP flag helps then.
Ge0rGHolger: the latest Monal beta is working fine on yax.im, but apparently not on other servers.
Ge0rGHolger: not sure which kind of notifications it's using
HolgerHmm.
Ge0rGthe whole thing is super complex, as other XEP implementations also play a role (CSI especially)
HolgerYeah, I'm into *that* part of the complexity, but I'm clueless what happens once the notification reaches push.monal.im :-)
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Ge0rGjust summoned the Monal developer. Hi Anu!
AnuHi
AnuWhat questions can I answer?
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HolgerAnu: Hah, ignore my 1:1 messages then.
AnuHahah
Ge0rGThe first question was whether you can delete / merge newly-delivered-notification, to which the answer was "yes"
AnuYes
Ge0rGAnu: what kind of information do you need on the push server to determine whether to send a low-prio / high-prio / no push message?
AnuHolger: Sorry I’m just waking up over here
HolgerAnu: There's no hurry :-)
HolgerAnu: A while back you said that the APNS notifications you're using won't (necessarily?) wake Monal if it was swiped away.
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HolgerAnu: But doesn't Monal have this VoIP flag which would allow for silent high-prio notifications?
AnuThe push channel on monal at least just a signal and is silent (on or off) the actual logic happens entirely in xmpp. The push is not the notification, the notification is generated by the client manually not the server. This is why I can look at older messages and modify
HolgerRight.
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AnuIt only gets silent high priority notifications that resume/launch the app
Ge0rGAnu: I thought you can't have silent *and* high-prio in the same notification
AnuSwiping away will launch monal but in circumstances where the device is locked, it is not able to unlock the encrypted keychain
HolgerThat's the idea of using 'silent' APNS notifications, right? I understand that they're usually throtteld by Apple. But I thought they're reliable for VoIP apps. Nevertheless they don't seem to be reliable for Monal?
HolgerAh.
AnuMonal is a special case blessed by Apple :)
Ge0rGAnu: if Monal wasn't a VoIP blessed app, how would you work around that?
Ge0rGWe need XEP-0357 to also work for the non-VoIP use case
AnuIf it weren’t the then the notification could still be silent but notifications will fail when the app is closed and in those cases the notification text should be generated by the server in a second notification
AnuSo either the message body comes in the notification’s payload
Ge0rGAnu: by the XMPP server or by the push server?
AnuYes
AnuBut since the whole design is the push server shouldn’t see the text
Ge0rGAnu: sending the message body over third-party channels is a security violation
AnuYes
Ge0rGso you'd have to send something like "You received a message"
AnuSo the xmpp server would need to see if the message was fetched after x amount of time
AnuIf not send a second non silent push message saying “you have a messag”
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Ge0rGAnu: shouldn't the push server figure that out?
Ge0rGi.e. XMPP server sends a message skeleton to push.monal.im, the push service attempts a silent notification and if that fails re-attempts with a "loud" one, if there was an actual message
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AnuPush server is largely one way
Ge0rGI'd rather not encode retry timing into the XMPP server
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AnuFailure does come on the apns feedback channel but that means the token is likely invalid
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AnuApple is paranoid and rotates then
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Ge0rGAnu: so there is no feedback about whether the app actually was notified?
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Ge0rGAnu: it would be great to collect some numbers on how well silent vs. non-silent notifications work and what the delays are in practice
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HolgerI think from user feedback it's obvious that silent notifications alone won't do the trick.
AnuI don’t think so, they update it every year so I can take a look
AnuBrb baby duties. Will be back in 30 min
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HolgerAs I said above I was hoping that this thing might do the trick (for iOS >= 10): https://developer.apple.com/documentation/usernotifications/modifying_content_in_newly_delivered_notifications
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HolgerAt least if it also allows for removing the lock-screen notification altogether.
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AnuYeah an extension is just launching the app
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AnuYeah an extension is just launching the app
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AnuThe extension would be a new app
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AnuSorry back
AnuBaby
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AnuTechnically the extension is th opposite of monal but should work and have a similar effect.
AnuI am adding logic for where it can’t download
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AnuThe only issue is that like most of the world things are http focused.
AnuIn the case of xmpp, the extension would be a new app that opens a new connection (and resource)
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AnuI have a share extension and wen through some fun hoops to hide that
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AnuI’m very interested in more feedback on pushes on monal, I have never had any fail. If notifications don’t show up it’s usually the case that the push arrives but monal does not download a message
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Ge0rGAnu: or Monal can't resume the session for some reasons.
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AnuOn jabb3r, yeah I’ve noticed this too but on yax it has
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AnuThus the muc experience
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Ge0rGAnu: were you able to pinpoint why it fails?
AnuNo, the actual
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AnuInteraction is identical
AnuIt tries to resume and then receives an error
AnuI thought it was monal too but the past week of testing muc with yax
AnuIt seems not to be the case
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AnuNow that I know it’s not client side, will good to actually debug on jabb3r now
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AnuGeorg: as you know from your iOS device, notifications come in ( in excess) :)
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Ge0rGAnu: maybe Monal fails to resume within the 5 minutes timeout on jabb3r.org? I've got 30 minutes on yaxi
Ge0rGAnu: maybe Monal fails to resume within the 5 minutes timeout on jabb3r.org? I've got 30 minutes on yax.im
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AnuWith push the stream is supposed to never expire isn’t it?
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jonas’I don’t think that’s true
jonas’that’s an implementation detail of some implementations (ejabberd)
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jonas’it gives you a certain time until after the first push to connect
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AnuAh
HolgerI *think* Prosody's mod_cloud_notify has a similar hack, but of course not all servers will have that enabled. (And either way there's still *some* timeout, just a longer one.)
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AnuMan push notifications are a pain
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HolgerThey are.
HolgerBut why is the session thing so essential? I thought Monal supports MAM?
AnuIt’s really not that bad for other protocols
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HolgerIt's also not that bad on Android ;-) Because silent notifications 'just work'.
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AnuThe diversity of configs and server software makes it really hard to deliver to consistent experience
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AnuAndroid isn’t really a privacy focused os though
AnuSo there’s a lot more wiggle room (and rope to hang with )
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HolgerTrue. My point is just that I think the biggest pain here is the unreliable silent notifications.
HolgerWhatever.
AnuYeah
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AnuI think the notifications are working
HolgerIf resumption fails, won't you receive the message from MAM?
AnuThe issue is client side
AnuYes
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AnuI don’t show notifications for mam messages
HolgerAh, why not?
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HolgerI would do that. You can't safely assume the message has been seen elsewhere just because you got it from MAM.
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AnuIt was generating excessive notifications
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HolgerSo then you'd not have to worry about session timeouts, the experience will be the same either way. I think 0198 should just be seen as an optional optimization.
HolgerHmmmm.
AnuYeah if the resume fails it just connects like normal
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AnuWhy I am puzzled by people not getting notifications
AnuApns is officially best effort
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AnuBut in about 8 years or working with it I have never seen a notification fail to deliver
AnuI’ve seen delays
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AnuBut that’s usually cell network issue
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HolgerI think the APNS throttling tries to be magic in that it depends on various factors such as the app usage, the battery, and whatnot?
HolgerSo I guess it might be normal that experience differs?
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HolgerWith haven't tested Monal too much (my test iPad somehow doesn't like it) but with ChatSecure I had missing notifications all day long until Chris switched to high-prio notifications (which work reliably indeed).
Holgers/With/I/
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Ge0rGHolger [14:30]:
> If resumption fails, won't you receive the message from MAM?
Except that failing resumption does the weirdest things to the messages in the SM queue.
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HolgerMaybe, but that won't explain missing notifications/messages.
HolgerI mean, Monal not notifying on MAM messages would explain it I guess :-)
Ge0rGThe right thing is to de-duplicate between local history, MAM and offline messages, and to notify on *new* ones
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Ge0rGExcept... you need to delay until you processed everything because you might have answered some of those from another device
Ge0rGAnd this is where you need a Ph.D. to write a simple XMPP client.
HolgerThe latter behavior would be nice to have (where 'answers' could include chat markers/whatever), but that's kinda optional I think.
HolgerI think for the moment it would be good enough to (1) deduplicate using the stanza ID (no Ph.D. required) and (2) notify on all messages (MAM or live).
HolgerNot sure how notifications on MAM messages generate a flood? Maybe a full query of a large MAM archive for the first time or something?
Ge0rGHolger: (1) only works on private messages from clients that generate unique IDs; (2) ITYM "notify on *new* messages (MAM or live)"
Ge0rGHolger: if you notify on each message, you'll end up flooded
HolgerI mean the server's stanza ID?
Ge0rGAh, so you mean the stanza ID and not the stanza ID. Yes.
HolgerOf course.
Ge0rGSorry for my misunderstanding.
HolgerI.e. depend on mam:2 for deduplication (unless you have a Ph.D. and too much time).
Ge0rGSo how do you deduplicate *sent* messages based on stanza ID?
HolgerOkay, (1) dedup incoming, (2) make your damn Ph.D., (3) dedup outgoing.
Ge0rGSome days ago, I received multiple copies of the same message from an IRC transport, and the copies (routed to different of my resources, of which one was offline) had different message IDs.
Ge0rGAlso different stanza IDs
Ge0rGThere should be a XEP describing how to dedup
HolgerI'd use one of the other IDs for outgoing. But yes that's not nice.
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AnuA reminder that xmpp is a brutally complicated protocol. :)
AnuSuper powerful but often conflicting
Ge0rGThis is so sad.
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ZashEmergent complexity!
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Ge0rGEmergency.
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AnuSo on other protocols we’ve esp for mobile we’ve ditched the idea of being offline. Things are down based on devices registered
AnuDeduping on a guid associated with every message
Ge0rGAnu: yeah, that's a great approach but XMPP isn't there yet
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AnuI just discovered how to query mam archives in reverse chronological order
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AnuThanks Georg
AnuThat will probably help too
Ge0rGAnu: I'm not sure it's a good idea to query them in reverse
AnuUx
Ge0rGAnu: some messages contain back-references, like LMC
AnuYou want to see newest first and the pull the older ones later
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AnuLmc?
Ge0rGAnu: so now you need to cache the newer message that references an old one until the old one has arrived. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0308.html Last Message Correction
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AnuOh fun
AnuThe problem with my current mam
Ge0rGAnu: okay, pulling in the last 50 in linear order won't save you from that
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AnuIs 90 percent of hemtime I use my phone
AnuWhen I go to my iPad or laptop it starters to get every message since I last used it
HolgerGe0rG: It's not mandatory to support LMC though.
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Ge0rGHolger: nothing is mandatory. What's your point?
Ge0rGBTW, LMC would be a good addition to cs-2019, cc jonas’
AnuAnd what I really care about is most recent, I can pull down to get more if I need more
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HolgerGe0rG: My point is I would not let my MAM retrieval strategy depend on XEP-0308.
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HolgerIf the original message isn't within the chunk I got from MAM, so be it. If the user scrolls up, he'll receive it. Probably. The server might've ditched it already anyway.
Ge0rGAnu: then you need to mark a message with an LMC for something that you haven't fetched yet and merge them when the user pulls down
AnuYeah
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Ge0rGLMC is just one example of message references.
AnuBasically some tie breaker logic
HolgerAnd my point would probably remain the same for any other examples.
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HolgerThere's no guarantee you get the original message anyway.
Ge0rGNo guarantee, no.
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HolgerSo don't make XMPP life even complicater than it is anyway.
AnuYeah it’s based on age and archiving preferences
Ge0rGsaid the server developer.
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AnuHolger: quick question, monal works on the iPad 2 up
AnuBasically every iPad but the original
AnuWhat do you have? It should work for you
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HolgerAnu: I can no longer reproduce the crashes. It seemed like it was triggered by some MAM message which is no longer retrieved (not sure why, I'll have to look).
AnuThere were a few ui glitches recently but I’ve been fixing those
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AnuAlso I’ve fixed a lot of crashes
HolgerAh yes I did update recently, maybe it was due to your fixes.
AnuI fix them as soon as they come in to crashlytics and put our an update the same day
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AnuWhen I am working on it there is a release nightly for betas and weekly for prod
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HolgerVery cool.
HolgerI'll have to look into the MAM thing but other than that I'm happy :-) Unfortunately I can also reproduce missing push notifications though---even with normal live messages.
Anu2 week sprints, crashlytics is my feedback loop
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AnuAny particular server?
HolgerNow that it's no longer crashing, I'll be much better with looking at the traffic and things.
HolgerI'm using conversations.im for testing.
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AnuI realize all the servers I’ve tested with have been prosody, made a balbber.im account to test with ejabberd
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AnuOn the betas there is a log at the bottom of settings, it’s the devices console
AnuSo it prints out the full stream and all errors there
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AnuNew release coming out today btw
HolgerRight now I'm using the release, I'd be happy to switch to the betas.
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AnuI added muting becuae the notifications are a little too good esp with muc
HolgerHeh.
AnuSwitch to the betas on my website
AnuBetter if you are a developer
Ge0rGAnu: I suggest two things:
- collect all new messages per JID/MUC until sync is completed
- don't make notifications if you see recent activity from another device
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Anuhttps://testflight.apple.com/join/RjIlyvqa
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AnuHmm
AnuMight be the right approach
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HolgerAnu: Installed, thanks.
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AnuIf messsges fail to arrive take a look at the log, it’s pretty raw but you can see every stanza sent and receives
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AnuIf you see anything wrong let me know I can usually have a fix up in a few hours
HolgerYes that's very useful.
HolgerAwesome to see you being so active.
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AnuThe more feedback the better, I can’t really test everything myself so it’s great when others let me know when they see bugs :)
Ge0rGAnu: did you implement LMC already? :D
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AnuNot in develop branch yet
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AnuSoon
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AnuIt will be there soon though, I have a lot of feyures that I am sitting on becuase I need to put our bug fixes
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AnuAnd I generally dont do major features and bug fixes in the same releases
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jonas’Ge0rG, re LMC + CS-2019: PR please?
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Ge0rGjonas’: last time you asked for ML and not for PR :>
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jonas’I don’t care, I take either
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Ge0rGjonas’: any chance to demote Avatars from Core to Advanced? :D
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jonas’hm, not sure
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ZashMmmmmm, does Avatars depend on PEP+ / 222?
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Ge0rGSo now that Logitech is discontinuing XMPP support on their Harmony smart remote control, I first time hear about that support: https://twitter.com/smkelly/status/1074494850815455232
Ge0rGXMPP Marketing at its best
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AnuFunny I know a lot of iot devices use xmpp
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AnuRobot vacuums for example
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Ge0rGIt'd be great to fill the IoT page under https://xmpp.org/uses/ with specific examples, akin to Online Games; instead of a generic definition of what IoT is about
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Zash👍
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Ge0rGI'm sure we've had that discussion before, and I'm sure I wrote an issue for it already, but I can't find it.
moparisthebestGuy on curl mailing list is asking for advice about how to implement 'push notifications' with curl as the client
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moparisthebestSomeone mentioned you could make a request and wait for server to respond, guy asked "but what if the server has something to send and the client has lost connection"
Ge0rGcurl does xmpp now?
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moparisthebestInb4 re implementing xmpp poorly on top of http
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moparisthebestNo but I'm thinking of suggesting he use xmpp instead of http
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ZashBOSH?
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Ge0rGisn't that the company that provided emission manipulation devices to Volkswagen?
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Ge0rGAnu: could you add your vacuums to the issue?