Kev: A while back we were discussing silent APNS notifications, I think I promised to look up the docs on their unreliability. FWIW I now stumbled over them again:
> APNs sends a limited number of silent notifications---notifications with the content-available key---per day. In addition, if the device has already exceeded its power budget for the day, silent notifications are not sent again until the power budget resets, which happens once a day.
https://developer.apple.com/documentation/usernotifications/setting_up_a_remote_notification_server/sending_notification_requests_to_apns
Holger
Also the description of the `apns-priority` field, and this: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/usernotifications/setting_up_a_remote_notification_server/pushing_updates_to_your_app_silently
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Holger
(But either way Daniel's suggestion to use this would probably do the trick on recent iOS versions: <https://developer.apple.com/documentation/usernotifications/modifying_content_in_newly_delivered_notifications>)
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Ge0rG
Holger: how does that relate to the proposal of sending stripped down stanzas to the push server (only XML meta-data)
Holger
Ge0rG: As you probably know, Chris' solution is to use high-prio notifications which don't wake the app but generate a lock-screen notification instead (and pressing that wakes the app). So he was interested in getting more info regarding the stanza that triggered the notification, in order to not generate lock screen notifications for stanzas without message body.
Ge0rG
Holger: I think that Anu is also working on content-modifications.
Ge0rG
Holger: yeah, but the high-prio vs. low prio thing somehow escalated
Ge0rG
and then it was buried for half a year and nobody remembers any more what the best solution was
Holger
With escalation you mean my stripped-down-stanza suggestion? :-) Chris' solution was/is basically to have the XMPP server distinguish between high/low prio, while I thought we might want to be more flexible in the future, i.e. for Jingle calls, MUC invitations, or whatever.
Holger
But if that content-modification thing does the trick, maybe we can forget about all that and get away with silent notifications after all. At least to get iOS working.
Holger
"Content modification" also allows omitting/removing the lock-screen notification altogether?
Ge0rG
Holger: I don't know about the last point
Holger
Ge0rG: BTW I don't quite understand the story with Monal. I thought it has that VoIP flag which would allow for silent high-prio notifications.
Holger
Apparently it either doesn't use those or they aren't reliable either. Not sure how the VoIP flag helps then.
Ge0rG
Holger: the latest Monal beta is working fine on yax.im, but apparently not on other servers.
Ge0rG
Holger: not sure which kind of notifications it's using
Holger
Hmm.
Ge0rG
the whole thing is super complex, as other XEP implementations also play a role (CSI especially)
Holger
Yeah, I'm into *that* part of the complexity, but I'm clueless what happens once the notification reaches push.monal.im :-)
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Ge0rGjust summoned the Monal developer. Hi Anu!
Anu
Hi
Anu
What questions can I answer?
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Holger
Anu: Hah, ignore my 1:1 messages then.
Anu
Hahah
Ge0rG
The first question was whether you can delete / merge newly-delivered-notification, to which the answer was "yes"
Anu
Yes
Ge0rG
Anu: what kind of information do you need on the push server to determine whether to send a low-prio / high-prio / no push message?
Anu
Holger: Sorry I’m just waking up over here
Holger
Anu: There's no hurry :-)
Holger
Anu: A while back you said that the APNS notifications you're using won't (necessarily?) wake Monal if it was swiped away.
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Holger
Anu: But doesn't Monal have this VoIP flag which would allow for silent high-prio notifications?
Anu
The push channel on monal at least just a signal and is silent (on or off) the actual logic happens entirely in xmpp. The push is not the notification, the notification is generated by the client manually not the server. This is why I can look at older messages and modify
Holger
Right.
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Anu
It only gets silent high priority notifications that resume/launch the app
Ge0rG
Anu: I thought you can't have silent *and* high-prio in the same notification
Anu
Swiping away will launch monal but in circumstances where the device is locked, it is not able to unlock the encrypted keychain
Holger
That's the idea of using 'silent' APNS notifications, right? I understand that they're usually throtteld by Apple. But I thought they're reliable for VoIP apps. Nevertheless they don't seem to be reliable for Monal?
Holger
Ah.
Anu
Monal is a special case blessed by Apple :)
Ge0rG
Anu: if Monal wasn't a VoIP blessed app, how would you work around that?
Ge0rG
We need XEP-0357 to also work for the non-VoIP use case
Anu
If it weren’t the then the notification could still be silent but notifications will fail when the app is closed and in those cases the notification text should be generated by the server in a second notification
Anu
So either the message body comes in the notification’s payload
Ge0rG
Anu: by the XMPP server or by the push server?
Anu
Yes
Anu
But since the whole design is the push server shouldn’t see the text
Ge0rG
Anu: sending the message body over third-party channels is a security violation
Anu
Yes
Ge0rG
so you'd have to send something like "You received a message"
So the xmpp server would need to see if the message was fetched after x amount of time
Anu
If not send a second non silent push message saying “you have a messag”
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Ge0rG
Anu: shouldn't the push server figure that out?
Ge0rG
i.e. XMPP server sends a message skeleton to push.monal.im, the push service attempts a silent notification and if that fails re-attempts with a "loud" one, if there was an actual message
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Anu
Push server is largely one way
Ge0rG
I'd rather not encode retry timing into the XMPP server
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Anu
Failure does come on the apns feedback channel but that means the token is likely invalid
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Anu
Apple is paranoid and rotates then
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Ge0rG
Anu: so there is no feedback about whether the app actually was notified?
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Ge0rG
Anu: it would be great to collect some numbers on how well silent vs. non-silent notifications work and what the delays are in practice
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Holger
I think from user feedback it's obvious that silent notifications alone won't do the trick.
Anu
I don’t think so, they update it every year so I can take a look
Anu
Brb baby duties. Will be back in 30 min
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Holger
As I said above I was hoping that this thing might do the trick (for iOS >= 10): https://developer.apple.com/documentation/usernotifications/modifying_content_in_newly_delivered_notifications
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Holger
At least if it also allows for removing the lock-screen notification altogether.
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Anu
Yeah an extension is just launching the app
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Anu
Yeah an extension is just launching the app
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Anu
The extension would be a new app
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Anu
Sorry back
Anu
Baby
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Anu
Technically the extension is th opposite of monal but should work and have a similar effect.
Anu
I am adding logic for where it can’t download
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Anu
The only issue is that like most of the world things are http focused.
Anu
In the case of xmpp, the extension would be a new app that opens a new connection (and resource)
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Anu
I have a share extension and wen through some fun hoops to hide that
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Anu
I’m very interested in more feedback on pushes on monal, I have never had any fail. If notifications don’t show up it’s usually the case that the push arrives but monal does not download a message
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Ge0rG
Anu: or Monal can't resume the session for some reasons.
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Anu
On jabb3r, yeah I’ve noticed this too but on yax it has
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Anu
Thus the muc experience
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Ge0rG
Anu: were you able to pinpoint why it fails?
Anu
No, the actual
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Anu
Interaction is identical
Anu
It tries to resume and then receives an error
Anu
I thought it was monal too but the past week of testing muc with yax
Anu
It seems not to be the case
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Anu
Now that I know it’s not client side, will good to actually debug on jabb3r now
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Anu
Georg: as you know from your iOS device, notifications come in ( in excess) :)
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Ge0rG
Anu: maybe Monal fails to resume within the 5 minutes timeout on jabb3r.org? I've got 30 minutes on yaxi✎
Ge0rG
Anu: maybe Monal fails to resume within the 5 minutes timeout on jabb3r.org? I've got 30 minutes on yax.im ✏
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Anu
With push the stream is supposed to never expire isn’t it?
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jonas’
I don’t think that’s true
jonas’
that’s an implementation detail of some implementations (ejabberd)
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jonas’
it gives you a certain time until after the first push to connect
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Anu
Ah
Holger
I *think* Prosody's mod_cloud_notify has a similar hack, but of course not all servers will have that enabled. (And either way there's still *some* timeout, just a longer one.)
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Anu
Man push notifications are a pain
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Holger
They are.
Holger
But why is the session thing so essential? I thought Monal supports MAM?
Anu
It’s really not that bad for other protocols
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Holger
It's also not that bad on Android ;-) Because silent notifications 'just work'.
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Anu
The diversity of configs and server software makes it really hard to deliver to consistent experience
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Anu
Android isn’t really a privacy focused os though
Anu
So there’s a lot more wiggle room (and rope to hang with )
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Holger
True. My point is just that I think the biggest pain here is the unreliable silent notifications.
Holger
Whatever.
Anu
Yeah
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Anu
I think the notifications are working
Holger
If resumption fails, won't you receive the message from MAM?
Anu
The issue is client side
Anu
Yes
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Anu
I don’t show notifications for mam messages
Holger
Ah, why not?
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Holger
I would do that. You can't safely assume the message has been seen elsewhere just because you got it from MAM.
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Anu
It was generating excessive notifications
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Holger
So then you'd not have to worry about session timeouts, the experience will be the same either way. I think 0198 should just be seen as an optional optimization.
Holger
Hmmmm.
Anu
Yeah if the resume fails it just connects like normal
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Anu
Why I am puzzled by people not getting notifications
Anu
Apns is officially best effort
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Anu
But in about 8 years or working with it I have never seen a notification fail to deliver
Anu
I’ve seen delays
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Anu
But that’s usually cell network issue
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Holger
I think the APNS throttling tries to be magic in that it depends on various factors such as the app usage, the battery, and whatnot?
Holger
So I guess it might be normal that experience differs?
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Holger
With haven't tested Monal too much (my test iPad somehow doesn't like it) but with ChatSecure I had missing notifications all day long until Chris switched to high-prio notifications (which work reliably indeed).
Holger
s/With/I/
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Ge0rG
Holger [14:30]:
> If resumption fails, won't you receive the message from MAM?
Except that failing resumption does the weirdest things to the messages in the SM queue.
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Holger
Maybe, but that won't explain missing notifications/messages.
Holger
I mean, Monal not notifying on MAM messages would explain it I guess :-)
Ge0rG
The right thing is to de-duplicate between local history, MAM and offline messages, and to notify on *new* ones
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Ge0rG
Except... you need to delay until you processed everything because you might have answered some of those from another device
Ge0rG
And this is where you need a Ph.D. to write a simple XMPP client.
Holger
The latter behavior would be nice to have (where 'answers' could include chat markers/whatever), but that's kinda optional I think.
Holger
I think for the moment it would be good enough to (1) deduplicate using the stanza ID (no Ph.D. required) and (2) notify on all messages (MAM or live).
Holger
Not sure how notifications on MAM messages generate a flood? Maybe a full query of a large MAM archive for the first time or something?
Ge0rG
Holger: (1) only works on private messages from clients that generate unique IDs; (2) ITYM "notify on *new* messages (MAM or live)"
Ge0rG
Holger: if you notify on each message, you'll end up flooded
Holger
I mean the server's stanza ID?
Ge0rG
Ah, so you mean the stanza ID and not the stanza ID. Yes.
Holger
Of course.
Ge0rG
Sorry for my misunderstanding.
Holger
I.e. depend on mam:2 for deduplication (unless you have a Ph.D. and too much time).
Ge0rG
So how do you deduplicate *sent* messages based on stanza ID?
Holger
Okay, (1) dedup incoming, (2) make your damn Ph.D., (3) dedup outgoing.
Ge0rG
Some days ago, I received multiple copies of the same message from an IRC transport, and the copies (routed to different of my resources, of which one was offline) had different message IDs.
Ge0rG
Also different stanza IDs
Ge0rG
There should be a XEP describing how to dedup
Holger
I'd use one of the other IDs for outgoing. But yes that's not nice.
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Anu
A reminder that xmpp is a brutally complicated protocol. :)
Anu
Super powerful but often conflicting
Ge0rG
This is so sad.
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Zash
Emergent complexity!
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Ge0rG
Emergency.
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Anu
So on other protocols we’ve esp for mobile we’ve ditched the idea of being offline. Things are down based on devices registered
Anu
Deduping on a guid associated with every message
Ge0rG
Anu: yeah, that's a great approach but XMPP isn't there yet
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Anu
I just discovered how to query mam archives in reverse chronological order
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Anu
Thanks Georg
Anu
That will probably help too
Ge0rG
Anu: I'm not sure it's a good idea to query them in reverse
Anu
Ux
Ge0rG
Anu: some messages contain back-references, like LMC
Anu
You want to see newest first and the pull the older ones later
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Anu
Lmc?
Ge0rG
Anu: so now you need to cache the newer message that references an old one until the old one has arrived. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0308.html Last Message Correction
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Anu
Oh fun
Anu
The problem with my current mam
Ge0rG
Anu: okay, pulling in the last 50 in linear order won't save you from that
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Anu
Is 90 percent of hemtime I use my phone
Anu
When I go to my iPad or laptop it starters to get every message since I last used it
Holger
Ge0rG: It's not mandatory to support LMC though.
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Ge0rG
Holger: nothing is mandatory. What's your point?
Ge0rG
BTW, LMC would be a good addition to cs-2019, cc jonas’
Anu
And what I really care about is most recent, I can pull down to get more if I need more
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Holger
Ge0rG: My point is I would not let my MAM retrieval strategy depend on XEP-0308.
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Holger
If the original message isn't within the chunk I got from MAM, so be it. If the user scrolls up, he'll receive it. Probably. The server might've ditched it already anyway.
Ge0rG
Anu: then you need to mark a message with an LMC for something that you haven't fetched yet and merge them when the user pulls down
Anu
Yeah
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Ge0rG
LMC is just one example of message references.
Anu
Basically some tie breaker logic
Holger
And my point would probably remain the same for any other examples.
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Holger
There's no guarantee you get the original message anyway.
Ge0rG
No guarantee, no.
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Holger
So don't make XMPP life even complicater than it is anyway.
Anu
Yeah it’s based on age and archiving preferences
Ge0rG
said the server developer.
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Anu
Holger: quick question, monal works on the iPad 2 up
Anu
Basically every iPad but the original
Anu
What do you have? It should work for you
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Holger
Anu: I can no longer reproduce the crashes. It seemed like it was triggered by some MAM message which is no longer retrieved (not sure why, I'll have to look).
Anu
There were a few ui glitches recently but I’ve been fixing those
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Anu
Also I’ve fixed a lot of crashes
Holger
Ah yes I did update recently, maybe it was due to your fixes.
Anu
I fix them as soon as they come in to crashlytics and put our an update the same day
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Anu
When I am working on it there is a release nightly for betas and weekly for prod
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Holger
Very cool.
Holger
I'll have to look into the MAM thing but other than that I'm happy :-) Unfortunately I can also reproduce missing push notifications though---even with normal live messages.
Anu
2 week sprints, crashlytics is my feedback loop
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Anu
Any particular server?
Holger
Now that it's no longer crashing, I'll be much better with looking at the traffic and things.
Holger
I'm using conversations.im for testing.
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Anu
I realize all the servers I’ve tested with have been prosody, made a balbber.im account to test with ejabberd
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Anu
On the betas there is a log at the bottom of settings, it’s the devices console
Anu
So it prints out the full stream and all errors there
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Anu
New release coming out today btw
Holger
Right now I'm using the release, I'd be happy to switch to the betas.
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Anu
I added muting becuae the notifications are a little too good esp with muc
Holger
Heh.
Anu
Switch to the betas on my website
Anu
Better if you are a developer
Ge0rG
Anu: I suggest two things:
- collect all new messages per JID/MUC until sync is completed
- don't make notifications if you see recent activity from another device
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Anu
https://testflight.apple.com/join/RjIlyvqa
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Anu
Hmm
Anu
Might be the right approach
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Holger
Anu: Installed, thanks.
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Anu
If messsges fail to arrive take a look at the log, it’s pretty raw but you can see every stanza sent and receives
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Anu
If you see anything wrong let me know I can usually have a fix up in a few hours
Holger
Yes that's very useful.
Holger
Awesome to see you being so active.
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Anu
The more feedback the better, I can’t really test everything myself so it’s great when others let me know when they see bugs :)
Ge0rG
Anu: did you implement LMC already? :D
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Anu
Not in develop branch yet
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Anu
Soon
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Anu
It will be there soon though, I have a lot of feyures that I am sitting on becuase I need to put our bug fixes
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And I generally dont do major features and bug fixes in the same releases
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jonas’
Ge0rG, re LMC + CS-2019: PR please?
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Ge0rG
jonas’: last time you asked for ML and not for PR :>
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jonas’
I don’t care, I take either
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Ge0rG
jonas’: any chance to demote Avatars from Core to Advanced? :D
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hm, not sure
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Zash
Mmmmmm, does Avatars depend on PEP+ / 222?
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Ge0rG
So now that Logitech is discontinuing XMPP support on their Harmony smart remote control, I first time hear about that support: https://twitter.com/smkelly/status/1074494850815455232
Ge0rG
XMPP Marketing at its best
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Anu
Funny I know a lot of iot devices use xmpp
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Anu
Robot vacuums for example
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Ge0rG
It'd be great to fill the IoT page under https://xmpp.org/uses/ with specific examples, akin to Online Games; instead of a generic definition of what IoT is about
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Zash
👍
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Ge0rG
I'm sure we've had that discussion before, and I'm sure I wrote an issue for it already, but I can't find it.
Guy on curl mailing list is asking for advice about how to implement 'push notifications' with curl as the client
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moparisthebest
Someone mentioned you could make a request and wait for server to respond, guy asked "but what if the server has something to send and the client has lost connection"
Ge0rG
curl does xmpp now?
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moparisthebest
Inb4 re implementing xmpp poorly on top of http
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moparisthebest
No but I'm thinking of suggesting he use xmpp instead of http
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Zash
BOSH?
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Ge0rG
isn't that the company that provided emission manipulation devices to Volkswagen?