XSF Discussion - 2018-12-18

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  185. Ge0rG Will MUC subject changes also be stored in a MUC's offline history and replayed on join?
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  187. lovetox not to my knowledge Ge0rG
  188. lovetox this would be akward
  189. Ge0rG indeed
  190. lovetox im not sure why though, its just a gut feeling
  191. lovetox it would be weird in combination with MAM
  192. Maranda Not replayed in history *shrugs*
  193. lovetox because if you join with max=0 history
  194. lovetox then you still receive the subject from the MUC
  195. lovetox and afterwards you request MAM
  196. Maranda Indeed
  197. lovetox and get a bunch of subject changes
  198. lovetox but you have the timestamp so you could sort them correctly
  199. Ge0rG > because if you join with max=0 history [..] and afterwards you request MAM Are there potential race conditions between sync and live traffic?
  200. lovetox i dont think so because you have timestamps
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  203. Ge0rG 1. join 2. request MAM since $last_timestamp 3. live message comes in 4. MAM comes in, eventually containing that last live message
  204. oli why awkward? subject changes could be part and context of a conversation.
  205. Maranda At most, at least I, record only in http logs the subject changes not the rest
  206. lovetox oli i meant protocol wise akward
  207. lovetox not that it couldnt be useful
  208. Ge0rG oli: because a client might think "the sync is completed"
  209. oli right
  210. lovetox Ge0rG, you case is does not lead to problems with mam:2
  211. lovetox because of stanza-id deduplication
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  213. Maranda oli: it's not stated in the protocol to begin with that subject changes should go in the history (or otherwise, but it goes against the intentions me thinks)
  214. Ge0rG I normally don't deduplicate for live messages, only for MAM syncup
  215. lovetox true .. i remember i also dont
  216. lovetox but i throw away all messages while a MAM MUC catchup is running
  217. lovetox or something like that
  218. lovetox i considererd this case, thats what i remember
  219. Ge0rG We really need to document all these hairy corner cases
  220. Ge0rG also notification suppression
  221. Ge0rG Just had a similar discussion with Anu yesterday
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  223. Zash Did you know: Normal groupchat messages are allowed to have a subject if they have a body too
  224. lovetox ah i remember now Ge0rG this still does work with deduplication
  225. lovetox because live message gets written into the db first
  226. lovetox then mam message comes, and you dedup on that
  227. Ge0rG Zash: normal != groupchat
  228. lovetox he just means groupchat messages
  229. lovetox you have to filter on "has subject but not body"
  230. Zash <message type=groupchat><subject>stuff</subject><body>Let's talk about stuff</body></message>
  231. lovetox to catch a subject, not just "has subject"
  232. Zash That is *not* a MUC subject change
  233. Zash Just a groupchat message that happens to have a subject
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  248. ralphm Indeed. “Note: In accordance with the core definition of XML stanzas, any message can contain a <subject/> element; only a message that contains a <subject/> but no <body/> element shall be considered a subject change for MUC purposes.”
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  250. Ge0rG Some MUC implementation forbid messages having both body and subject.
  251. Ge0rG Still, it doesn't answer my question of whether it's legal to have a subject change in MUC history
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  253. ralphm I don't see why it shouldn't be in there.
  254. Ge0rG ralphm: because of https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#order
  255. Ge0rG Of course there are also servers that *don't* send the subject at all if it's not set, so...
  256. ralphm Ge0rG: I still don't see the issue. If you are sending message history, that's not 'live messages'
  257. lovetox i think this is not easy to implement for servers
  258. Ge0rG ralphm: a client needs to be able to distinguish history from live messages
  259. lovetox they only should put the first subject change into the archive
  260. lovetox afterwards they send the subject to many users, but should not put it into the archive anymore
  261. Ge0rG lovetox: every subject change should be in the archive
  262. ralphm They already should, no? Message history stanzas have a <delay/> with a from attribute.
  263. lovetox ralphm, from attr is not mandatory
  264. lovetox and servers dont enforce it
  265. Ge0rG ralphm: a <delay/> with a from is not exclusive to history.
  266. lovetox also all other messages can also have delay
  267. Ge0rG so it's a good indicator, at best.
  268. lovetox also the room subject itself can have a delay
  269. ralphm Hmm. It says here in 7.2.14: Note well that this means the room subject (and changes to the room subject prior to the current subject) are not part of the discussion history.
  270. ralphm Well, that sucks
  271. Ge0rG ralphm: ah, thanks. Didn't see that.
  272. lovetox why are you interested in this Ge0rG? are you writing code regarding to subject changes?
  273. ralphm Good thing that's resolved with MIX.
  274. ralphm I.e. there's no subject there, at all.
  275. Ge0rG lovetox: I have some legacy code about subject changes. Also a race condition between receiving the subject and receiving the room's disco#info on join
  276. ralphm Fortunately, if you want to add such functionality, you'd just have another node for just the room subject.
  277. lovetox yeah separation is good for that
  278. lovetox Ge0rG, dont you want to disco the muc before you join?
  279. lovetox thats recommended if you want to use mam when i remember correctly
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  281. Ge0rG lovetox: I'll have to change that then
  282. lovetox the problem with mam is, that if you join a muc without knowing if it is mam capable
  283. lovetox you have to use history in the join, because you dont know about mam
  284. lovetox because you can do a join with max=0
  285. lovetox and then get the history later
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  287. lovetox cant*
  288. lovetox you have to specifiy on join if you want history or not, so you already need to know about mam
  289. lovetox and to make that process faster on rejoins, i would also cache that disco information
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  297. Ge0rG Yay.
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  432. Alex hey guys, ready for our member meeting?
  433. Seve o/
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  435. Zash woop
  436. Alex okay
  437. Alex bangs the gavel
  438. Alex here is our Agenda for today
  439. Alex https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2018-12-18
  440. Alex 1) Call for Quorum
  441. Alex as you can see 30 members voted via memberbot, so we have a quorum
  442. Alex 2) Items Subject to a Vote
  443. Alex new and returning members, you can see all applicants here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q4_2018
  444. Alex 3) Opportunity for XSF Members to Vote in the Meeting
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  446. Alex anyone here who has not voted yet via memberbot and wants to vote now?
  447. Alex ok, looks like I can start working on the results then
  448. blabla has joined
  449. Seve Good! :)
  450. lorddavidiii has joined
  451. Alex 4) Announcement of Voting Results
  452. labdsf has joined
  453. Alex when you reload the page you can see the results at: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2018-12-18#Announcement_of_Voting_Results
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  458. Alex all Reappliers accepted, no new applicants this term
  459. labdsf has joined
  460. Alex congrats to everyone
  461. Seve Congratulations :)
  462. Seve THank you Alex
  463. Alex 5) Any Other Business?
  464. Zash Not here
  465. Guus Nor here
  466. Alex 6) Formal Adjournment
  467. Alex I motion that we adjourn
  468. Guus Second
  469. Guus -ed
  470. Zash +ed²
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  473. Guus Thank you once again, Alex
  474. Alex bangs the gavel
  475. Link Mauve Thanks. :)
  476. Alex thank you guys, will send out minutes and update the memebrlist ASAP
  477. Zash Thanks Alex
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  479. Ge0rG Thanks very much. Happy to hear I wasn't demoted.
  480. Alex :-P
  481. Ge0rG Also what's wrong with you guys? I troll and curse all the time and don't get any negative votes!?
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  483. jonas’ Ge0rG, nobody wants to have to repeat the council vote probably ;-)
  484. Ge0rG Heh!
  485. jonas’ or, y’know, they value your nevertheless useful technical contributions...
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  489. Ge0rG Can't imagine *that*
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