XSF Discussion - 2018-12-18

  1. rion has left

  2. andrey.g has left

  3. andrey.g has joined

  4. jjrh has left

  5. jjrh has left

  6. Maranda has joined

  7. Zash has left

  8. Zash has left

  9. UsL has left

  10. UsL has joined

  11. ralphm has left

  12. frainz has left

  13. frainz has joined

  14. Marc Laporte has joined

  15. marc has left

  16. marc has joined

  17. marc has left

  18. marc has joined

  19. ralphm has left

  20. mrdoctorwho has joined

  21. marc has left

  22. marc has joined

  23. lskdjf has left

  24. Steve Kille has left

  25. alacer has joined

  26. lskdjf has joined

  27. alacer has left

  28. alacer has joined

  29. ThibG has left

  30. ThibG has joined

  31. alacer has left

  32. Marc Laporte has left

  33. neshtaxmpp has left

  34. neshtaxmpp has left

  35. waqas has left

  36. waqas has joined

  37. Nekit has joined

  38. ta has left

  39. Maranda has left

  40. Wiktor has left

  41. Wiktor has joined

  42. Tobias has joined

  43. mimi89999 has left

  44. Link Mauve has left

  45. lnj has joined

  46. mrdoctorwho has left

  47. mrdoctorwho has joined

  48. vaulor has joined

  49. oli has joined

  50. Marc Laporte has joined

  51. APach has left

  52. APach has joined

  53. labdsf has left

  54. lnj has left

  55. Marc Laporte has left

  56. lorddavidiii has left

  57. krauq has joined

  58. mimi89999 has joined

  59. marc has left

  60. marc has joined

  61. 404.city has joined

  62. andy has joined

  63. krauq has joined

  64. oli has joined

  65. intosi has left

  66. intosi has joined

  67. Marc Laporte has joined

  68. marc has left

  69. genofire has left

  70. genofire has left

  71. goffi has joined

  72. genofire has left

  73. genofire has left

  74. genofire has left

  75. genofire has left

  76. genofire has left

  77. genofire has left

  78. genofire has left

  79. genofire has left

  80. genofire has left

  81. genofire has left

  82. APach has left

  83. genofire has left

  84. sezuan has left

  85. UsL has left

  86. UsL has joined

  87. genofire has left

  88. neshtaxmpp has joined

  89. genofire has left

  90. genofire has left

  91. genofire has left

  92. genofire has left

  93. genofire has left

  94. genofire has left

  95. genofire has left

  96. Marc Laporte has left

  97. genofire has left

  98. genofire has left

  99. genofire has left

  100. genofire has left

  101. moparisthebest has left

  102. genofire has left

  103. genofire has left

  104. genofire has left

  105. genofire has left

  106. genofire has left

  107. lorddavidiii has joined

  108. blabla has left

  109. blabla has joined

  110. labdsf has joined

  111. genofire has left

  112. genofire has left

  113. genofire has left

  114. genofire has left

  115. genofire has left

  116. APach has joined

  117. genofire has left

  118. genofire has left

  119. genofire has left

  120. genofire has left

  121. genofire has left

  122. genofire has left

  123. genofire has left

  124. labdsf has left

  125. genofire has left

  126. genofire has left

  127. genofire has left

  128. genofire has left

  129. APach has left

  130. genofire has left

  131. genofire has left

  132. genofire has left

  133. genofire has left

  134. genofire has left

  135. genofire has left

  136. genofire has left

  137. frainz has left

  138. frainz has joined

  139. genofire has left

  140. sezuan has left

  141. labdsf has joined

  142. Guus has left

  143. genofire has left

  144. edhelas has left

  145. labdsf has left

  146. labdsf has joined

  147. edhelas has joined

  148. Steve Kille has left

  149. sezuan has left

  150. lnj has joined

  151. APach has joined

  152. Steve Kille has joined

  153. Zash has left

  154. rion has left

  155. rion has left

  156. rion has left

  157. sezuan has left

  158. sezuan has left

  159. igoose has left

  160. igoose has joined

  161. rion has left

  162. Steve Kille has left

  163. lorddavidiii has left

  164. lorddavidiii has joined

  165. APach has left

  166. nyco has left

  167. Zash has left

  168. Zash has joined

  169. oli has joined

  170. ThibG has joined

  171. Guus has left

  172. Guus has left

  173. waqas has left

  174. Zash has left

  175. oli has left

  176. oli has joined

  177. rion has left

  178. APach has joined

  179. lovetox has joined

  180. Zash has left

  181. Zash has joined

  182. l has left

  183. andy has left

  184. APach has left

  185. Ge0rG

    Will MUC subject changes also be stored in a MUC's offline history and replayed on join?

  186. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  187. lovetox

    not to my knowledge Ge0rG

  188. lovetox

    this would be akward

  189. Ge0rG


  190. lovetox

    im not sure why though, its just a gut feeling

  191. lovetox

    it would be weird in combination with MAM

  192. Maranda

    Not replayed in history *shrugs*

  193. lovetox

    because if you join with max=0 history

  194. lovetox

    then you still receive the subject from the MUC

  195. lovetox

    and afterwards you request MAM

  196. Maranda


  197. lovetox

    and get a bunch of subject changes

  198. lovetox

    but you have the timestamp so you could sort them correctly

  199. Ge0rG

    > because if you join with max=0 history [..] and afterwards you request MAM Are there potential race conditions between sync and live traffic?

  200. lovetox

    i dont think so because you have timestamps

  201. lskdjf has joined

  202. nyco has left

  203. Ge0rG

    1. join 2. request MAM since $last_timestamp 3. live message comes in 4. MAM comes in, eventually containing that last live message

  204. oli

    why awkward? subject changes could be part and context of a conversation.

  205. Maranda

    At most, at least I, record only in http logs the subject changes not the rest

  206. lovetox

    oli i meant protocol wise akward

  207. lovetox

    not that it couldnt be useful

  208. Ge0rG

    oli: because a client might think "the sync is completed"

  209. oli


  210. lovetox

    Ge0rG, you case is does not lead to problems with mam:2

  211. lovetox

    because of stanza-id deduplication

  212. rion has left

  213. Maranda

    oli: it's not stated in the protocol to begin with that subject changes should go in the history (or otherwise, but it goes against the intentions me thinks)

  214. Ge0rG

    I normally don't deduplicate for live messages, only for MAM syncup

  215. lovetox

    true .. i remember i also dont

  216. lovetox

    but i throw away all messages while a MAM MUC catchup is running

  217. lovetox

    or something like that

  218. lovetox

    i considererd this case, thats what i remember

  219. Ge0rG

    We really need to document all these hairy corner cases

  220. Ge0rG

    also notification suppression

  221. Ge0rG

    Just had a similar discussion with Anu yesterday

  222. Alex has joined

  223. Zash

    Did you know: Normal groupchat messages are allowed to have a subject if they have a body too

  224. lovetox

    ah i remember now Ge0rG this still does work with deduplication

  225. lovetox

    because live message gets written into the db first

  226. lovetox

    then mam message comes, and you dedup on that

  227. Ge0rG

    Zash: normal != groupchat

  228. lovetox

    he just means groupchat messages

  229. lovetox

    you have to filter on "has subject but not body"

  230. Zash

    <message type=groupchat><subject>stuff</subject><body>Let's talk about stuff</body></message>

  231. lovetox

    to catch a subject, not just "has subject"

  232. Zash

    That is *not* a MUC subject change

  233. Zash

    Just a groupchat message that happens to have a subject

  234. APach has joined

  235. Zash has left

  236. andy has joined

  237. APach has left

  238. Alex has left

  239. Link Mauve has joined

  240. ta has left

  241. Alex has joined

  242. APach has joined

  243. rion has left

  244. Guus has left

  245. Guus has left

  246. rion has left

  247. Wiktor has left

  248. ralphm

    Indeed. “Note: In accordance with the core definition of XML stanzas, any message can contain a <subject/> element; only a message that contains a <subject/> but no <body/> element shall be considered a subject change for MUC purposes.”

  249. chunk has joined

  250. Ge0rG

    Some MUC implementation forbid messages having both body and subject.

  251. Ge0rG

    Still, it doesn't answer my question of whether it's legal to have a subject change in MUC history

  252. Wiktor has left

  253. ralphm

    I don't see why it shouldn't be in there.

  254. Ge0rG

    ralphm: because of https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#order

  255. Ge0rG

    Of course there are also servers that *don't* send the subject at all if it's not set, so...

  256. ralphm

    Ge0rG: I still don't see the issue. If you are sending message history, that's not 'live messages'

  257. lovetox

    i think this is not easy to implement for servers

  258. Ge0rG

    ralphm: a client needs to be able to distinguish history from live messages

  259. lovetox

    they only should put the first subject change into the archive

  260. lovetox

    afterwards they send the subject to many users, but should not put it into the archive anymore

  261. Ge0rG

    lovetox: every subject change should be in the archive

  262. ralphm

    They already should, no? Message history stanzas have a <delay/> with a from attribute.

  263. lovetox

    ralphm, from attr is not mandatory

  264. lovetox

    and servers dont enforce it

  265. Ge0rG

    ralphm: a <delay/> with a from is not exclusive to history.

  266. lovetox

    also all other messages can also have delay

  267. Ge0rG

    so it's a good indicator, at best.

  268. lovetox

    also the room subject itself can have a delay

  269. ralphm

    Hmm. It says here in 7.2.14: Note well that this means the room subject (and changes to the room subject prior to the current subject) are not part of the discussion history.

  270. ralphm

    Well, that sucks

  271. Ge0rG

    ralphm: ah, thanks. Didn't see that.

  272. lovetox

    why are you interested in this Ge0rG? are you writing code regarding to subject changes?

  273. ralphm

    Good thing that's resolved with MIX.

  274. ralphm

    I.e. there's no subject there, at all.

  275. Ge0rG

    lovetox: I have some legacy code about subject changes. Also a race condition between receiving the subject and receiving the room's disco#info on join

  276. ralphm

    Fortunately, if you want to add such functionality, you'd just have another node for just the room subject.

  277. lovetox

    yeah separation is good for that

  278. lovetox

    Ge0rG, dont you want to disco the muc before you join?

  279. lovetox

    thats recommended if you want to use mam when i remember correctly

  280. Wiktor has left

  281. Ge0rG

    lovetox: I'll have to change that then

  282. lovetox

    the problem with mam is, that if you join a muc without knowing if it is mam capable

  283. lovetox

    you have to use history in the join, because you dont know about mam

  284. lovetox

    because you can do a join with max=0

  285. lovetox

    and then get the history later

  286. sezuan has left

  287. lovetox


  288. lovetox

    you have to specifiy on join if you want history or not, so you already need to know about mam

  289. lovetox

    and to make that process faster on rejoins, i would also cache that disco information

  290. Wiktor has left

  291. dos has left

  292. ta has left

  293. Wiktor has left

  294. sezuan has left

  295. chunk has left

  296. chunk has joined

  297. Ge0rG


  298. marc has joined

  299. Yagiza has joined

  300. Zash has left

  301. Wiktor has left

  302. Wiktor has left

  303. 404.city has left

  304. alacer has joined

  305. chunk has joined

  306. alacer has left

  307. alacer has joined

  308. efrit has joined

  309. alacer has left

  310. Tobias has left

  311. vanitasvitae has left

  312. ThibG has left

  313. ThibG has joined

  314. marc has left

  315. marc has joined

  316. vanitasvitae has joined

  317. mightyBroccoli has left

  318. mightyBroccoli has joined

  319. lskdjf has joined

  320. Marc Laporte has joined

  321. mightyBroccoli has left

  322. Zash has left

  323. mightyBroccoli has joined

  324. vanitasvitae has left

  325. vanitasvitae has joined

  326. rion has left

  327. alacer has joined

  328. 404.city has joined

  329. Marc Laporte has left

  330. Marc Laporte has joined

  331. alacer has left

  332. Marc Laporte has left

  333. neshtaxmpp has joined

  334. jjrh has left

  335. Steve Kille has left

  336. Steve Kille has joined

  337. jjrh has left

  338. jjrh has left

  339. lorddavidiii has left

  340. andy has left

  341. lumi has joined

  342. neshtaxmpp has left

  343. neshtaxmpp has left

  344. neshtaxmpp has joined

  345. chunk has left

  346. jjrh has left

  347. igoose has left

  348. igoose has joined

  349. jjrh has left

  350. jjrh has left

  351. Nekit has left

  352. Nekit has joined

  353. blabla has joined

  354. lskdjf has left

  355. Zash has left

  356. lskdjf has joined

  357. Zash has joined

  358. igoose has left

  359. igoose has joined

  360. Nekit has left

  361. Nekit has joined

  362. ThibG has joined

  363. blabla has joined

  364. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  365. nyco has left

  366. sezuan has left

  367. Zash has left

  368. frainz has joined

  369. oli has joined

  370. Zash has left

  371. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  372. efrit has left

  373. nyco has left

  374. sezuan has left

  375. jjrh has left

  376. lorddavidiii has joined

  377. Guus has left

  378. lorddavidiii has left

  379. lorddavidiii has joined

  380. jjrh has left

  381. !xsf_martin has joined

  382. l has left

  383. l has joined

  384. ThibG has joined

  385. neshtaxmpp has left

  386. neshtaxmpp has left

  387. mimi89999 has joined

  388. oli has joined

  389. efrit has joined

  390. waqas has joined

  391. APach has left

  392. Guus has left

  393. Guus has joined

  394. efrit has left

  395. genofire has left

  396. APach has joined

  397. Wiktor has left

  398. frainz has left

  399. frainz has joined

  400. Steve Kille has left

  401. Steve Kille has left

  402. genofire has joined

  403. Steve Kille has joined

  404. lumi has left

  405. marc has left

  406. neshtaxmpp has joined

  407. oli has joined

  408. marc has joined

  409. igoose has left

  410. igoose has joined

  411. ta has left

  412. l has left

  413. l has joined

  414. labdsf has left

  415. marc_ has joined

  416. sezuan has left

  417. oli has joined

  418. genofire has left

  419. tux has left

  420. genofire has joined

  421. neshtaxmpp has left

  422. neshtaxmpp has left

  423. blabla has joined

  424. oli has left

  425. oli has joined

  426. blabla has joined

  427. lorddavidiii has left

  428. marc_ has left

  429. marc_ has joined

  430. sezuan has left

  431. neshtaxmpp has joined

  432. Alex

    hey guys, ready for our member meeting?

  433. Seve


  434. labdsf has joined

  435. Zash


  436. Alex


  437. Alex bangs the gavel

  438. Alex

    here is our Agenda for today

  439. Alex


  440. Alex

    1) Call for Quorum

  441. Alex

    as you can see 30 members voted via memberbot, so we have a quorum

  442. Alex

    2) Items Subject to a Vote

  443. Alex

    new and returning members, you can see all applicants here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q4_2018

  444. Alex

    3) Opportunity for XSF Members to Vote in the Meeting

  445. Yagiza has left

  446. Alex

    anyone here who has not voted yet via memberbot and wants to vote now?

  447. Alex

    ok, looks like I can start working on the results then

  448. blabla has joined

  449. Seve

    Good! :)

  450. lorddavidiii has joined

  451. Alex

    4) Announcement of Voting Results

  452. labdsf has joined

  453. Alex

    when you reload the page you can see the results at: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2018-12-18#Announcement_of_Voting_Results

  454. blabla has joined

  455. blabla has joined

  456. labdsf has left

  457. labdsf has joined

  458. Alex

    all Reappliers accepted, no new applicants this term

  459. labdsf has joined

  460. Alex

    congrats to everyone

  461. Seve

    Congratulations :)

  462. Seve

    THank you Alex

  463. Alex

    5) Any Other Business?

  464. Zash

    Not here

  465. Guus

    Nor here

  466. Alex

    6) Formal Adjournment

  467. Alex

    I motion that we adjourn

  468. Guus


  469. Guus


  470. Zash


  471. jjrh has left

  472. l has joined

  473. Guus

    Thank you once again, Alex

  474. Alex bangs the gavel

  475. Link Mauve

    Thanks. :)

  476. Alex

    thank you guys, will send out minutes and update the memebrlist ASAP

  477. Zash

    Thanks Alex

  478. jjrh has left

  479. Ge0rG

    Thanks very much. Happy to hear I wasn't demoted.

  480. Alex


  481. Ge0rG

    Also what's wrong with you guys? I troll and curse all the time and don't get any negative votes!?

  482. 404.city has left

  483. jonas’

    Ge0rG, nobody wants to have to repeat the council vote probably ;-)

  484. Ge0rG


  485. jonas’

    or, y’know, they value your nevertheless useful technical contributions...

  486. lskdjf has left

  487. Nekit has joined

  488. igoose has joined

  489. Ge0rG

    Can't imagine *that*

  490. l has joined

  491. Nekit has joined

  492. mimi89999 has left

  493. neshtaxmpp has joined

  494. mimi89999 has left

  495. labdsf has left

  496. labdsf has joined

  497. labdsf has left

  498. labdsf has joined

  499. Alex has left

  500. Alex has joined

  501. neshtaxmpp has left

  502. neshtaxmpp has left

  503. neshtaxmpp has joined

  504. labdsf has left

  505. labdsf has joined

  506. labdsf has left

  507. labdsf has joined

  508. Neustradamus has left

  509. labdsf has left

  510. labdsf has joined

  511. labdsf has left

  512. labdsf has joined

  513. labdsf has left

  514. neshtaxmpp has left

  515. neshtaxmpp has left

  516. genofire has left

  517. labdsf has joined

  518. mimi89999 has left

  519. ThibG has left

  520. ThibG has joined

  521. jjrh has left

  522. lnj has left

  523. jjrh has left

  524. lnj has left

  525. Steve Kille has left

  526. igoose has left

  527. igoose has joined

  528. marc has left

  529. marc has joined

  530. genofire has left

  531. moparisthebest has joined

  532. Steve Kille has joined

  533. Alex has left

  534. marc has left

  535. marc has joined

  536. l has left

  537. oli has joined

  538. Alex has joined

  539. oli has joined

  540. sezuan has left

  541. l has joined

  542. genofire has left

  543. goffi has joined

  544. lovetox has left

  545. Neustradamus has left

  546. lovetox has joined

  547. Neustradamus has joined

  548. Tobias has joined

  549. Neustradamus has left

  550. marc_ has left

  551. Neustradamus has joined

  552. marc has left

  553. marc has joined

  554. lumi has joined

  555. !xsf_martin has joined

  556. sezuan has left

  557. ThibG has left

  558. ThibG has joined

  559. winfried has joined

  560. oli has left

  561. oli has joined

  562. oli has left

  563. oli has joined

  564. oli has left

  565. oli has joined

  566. jjrh has left

  567. blabla has left

  568. blabla has joined

  569. genofire has left

  570. igoose has left

  571. jjrh has left

  572. genofire has left

  573. genofire has joined

  574. jjrh has left

  575. Zash has left

  576. oli has joined

  577. frainz has left

  578. Alex has left

  579. marc has left

  580. blabla has joined

  581. tux has joined

  582. neshtaxmpp has joined

  583. rion has left

  584. l has left

  585. l has joined

  586. MattJ has joined

  587. moparisthebest has left

  588. sezuan has left

  589. moparisthebest has joined