marcOff-topic but will interest some of you: JMAP is a modern standard for email clients to connect to mail stores. It therefore primarily replaces IMAP + SMTP submission. It does not replace MTA-to-MTA SMTP transmission.
marchttps://jmap.io
ZashNyeh!
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marcThe proposed standard is in "Last Call" : https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-jmap-core/
jonas’can we rm -rf it
ZashWe don't take kindly to JSON-HTTP APIs here
pep.Seems like "modern" is synonym for http/json really.
MattJOh no, my plans for modernxmpp have been revealed!
jonas’MattJ, Guus, https://trello.com/c/jruUmUzl/321-process-violation-xep-0412 is this the right place for that card? where is your "inbox"?
Guusjonas’: that's it.
jonas’re buttons: I’m thinking +1, but with a threat that I’m blocking LC if this diverges too much into a XEP-0004 clone. any opinions?
jonas’is this a nasty thing to do?
jonas’or even a sensible thing?
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MattJjonas’, it's a sensible thing to do, no?
MattJIf you're happy with it as-is, approve it
MattJIf you're not happy with it later, don't approve it
jonas’I’d not say *happy*
MattJDelighted then :)
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Ge0rGjonas’: maybe it would be good to have the discussion of the protocol first, and the threats later?
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Ge0rGIMHO, it would be great if somebody knowledgeable about XEP-0004 would provide a strawman proto-XEP for Data Form Buttons
jonas’hm
Ge0rGjonas’: there! you are doing it again!
Link MauveI started that (and IIRC Zash did too), but in my case because I wanted more options than just buttons, and couldn’t reach something I’d enjoy.
jonas’oops I did it agaiiiin *singing*
Ge0rGjonas’: so the ’ is for spears?
jonas’no
jonas’Ge0rG, I see your point on the competing proposals, but we definitely need XEP-0004 extensions before
ZashShall I submit the dataforms buttons thing I wrote?
Ge0rGZash: yes please.
ZashSeems I don't have it on this machine
Ge0rGZash: actually, you should have submitted it side-by-side with the Simple Buttons, just to scare us into accepting the latter.
Ge0rGhttps://op-co.de/tmp/xform-buttons.html there, I rendered it for you
Link MauveHey, now that everything supports HSTS and HSTS preload, I could probably stop listening on port 80.
Link MauveZash, you should add HSTS preload to zash.se.
Ge0rGMitMs Link Mauve
Ge0rGZash: it's not scary enough.
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Link MauveGe0rG, why would it be scary?
Ge0rGLink Mauve: XEP-0004 is scary..
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Link MauveIt’s not.
jonas’it is
Ge0rGI mean, it's something that can be immediately discovered as scary, as opposed to MUC, which you need a decade to appreciate all the pitfalls of.
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jonas’it is a weird mix of interactive forms, m2m protocol and overly generic search result reporting
Link MauveIt’s a bit under-specified, but it’s far from scary, even after ten years of working with it.
jonas’all while it is nearly unextensible in a way which doesn’t break existing implementations
Link Mauvejonas’, “search” result?
jonas’that reporting stuff
jonas’which re-uses some parts of the data form wire format in awkward ways
Ge0rGI tend to -0 Buttons because of:
- no i18n for the response, leading to surprising results for the user (you press "Ja" and it emits "yes")
- the obvious overlap with ad-hoc data command forms
jonas’Ge0rG, Ad-hoc data forms as in XEP-0050?
Link MauveZash, did you also have a version doing ad-hoc, btw?
ZashLink Mauve: no
Link Mauvejonas’, yeah.
ralphmWe were looking at something that fills roughly the same role as Facebook Message Templates: https://developers.facebook.com/docs/messenger-platform/send-messages/templates/
ralphmWhere besides buttons, you also have other UI elements that you can describe semantically, like image carousels.
ralphmXEP-0004 isn't _really_ the most ideal for this kind of use case.
Ge0rGButtons doen't have any of those except for buttons, and those are half-i18ned
ralphmWe haven't gone as far as defining an XML format for it yet, though.
MattJralphm, I'm currently working on similar (also mapping Facebook to XMPP), buttons will be a part of that
ralphmGe0rG: sure, just giving some context
ralphmMattJ: interesting!
Ge0rGralphm: I like the comparison to the facebook thing, BTW. I'm sure they invested heeavily into MVPing it
Ge0rGI'd love to see buttons and polls actually.
ralphmProblem with XEP-0004 is that all interactions are around, well, submitting a form.
ralphmThat's not the same as what Facebook-like templates do. There, you define an action for a specific button, taking some context into consideration.
ralphmBut yeah, polls is another such thing.
jonas’ralphm, though it’s possible to map the selection of a button from a set of buttons to list-single
Zashlist-single-actually-a-button
ralphmjonas’: the problem is generally that you want a set of (hidden) fields to send along with such an action. So it might be that one button is like submitting a form, but the 'template' itself isn't one.
jonas’ralphm, you can have multiple forms
jonas’in a single message
jonas’(playing devil’s advocate here, I’m not convinced that XEP-0004 as-is is the right thing either)
ralphmjonas’: yes, sure, forms could be part of the presentation, but then you need some container format that is basically your (semantic) presentation of the whole thing.
jonas’probably
ralphmI'm not convinced that the generic nature of XEP-0004 brings something to the table for this use case, but maybe it does.
Link MauveAll of this really sounds like 0050.
Link MauveWith extended 0004.
jonas’except that '50 can’t have message context
jonas’(again, as-is)
ralphmAnd maybe media sharing and maybe other things.
Ge0rGralphm: don't those things end up being the same if the action is defined by the original sender of the form?
ralphmGe0rG: well, maybe. The idea of XEP-0004 is that you can generically display any such form, without the client necessarily knowing about the business logic or meaning of fields.
Ge0rGralphm: so if we had 0004 with additional buttons and label i18n, we would have a superset of Buttons, Polls etc?
Ge0rGMaybe also with a specified way to convey this in regular messages?
ralphmI think that it is quite possible to do something similar to Facebook templates for XMPP, but not sure that using XEP-0004 of the basis of that format is the right approach. Clicking a button might trigger submitting a XEP-0004 form, similar to XEP-0050, sure.
pep.I agree that it does sound like 0050. Maybe there can be some work done to have it work with messages?
jonas’(recently I’ve been thinking that we should replace messages with IQs :-X)
Ge0rGjonas’: that idea was brought up before
pep.jonas’: what is the motivation?
jonas’pep., helps us get rid of all the reciepts and delivery uncertainty
ralphmI.e. you'd probably like at least buttons, lists (with media), and maybe a caroussel of the former.
ralphmanyway, there are two things here: the presentational format (semantic, not dictating formatting), and processing actions from them.
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pep.jonas’: right I was also thinking about that when you mentioned IQs.
pep.You only get one level of acks though with this. People will still want "read" markers
ralphmfor more context, this is Facebook's view on buttons (that can be used in templates): https://developers.facebook.com/docs/messenger-platform/send-messages/buttons
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Ge0rGpep.: yes, you IQ-send messages to your server and it does reliable delivery™
jonas’like with SMTP
jonas’on each step there is a defined handover; it’s not fire & forget
jonas’you have at-least-once semantics with SMTP, provided that required entities can be contacted within a timeout
jonas’(and don’t lie about taking responsibility for a message)
XSF Discussion - 2018-12-19