XSF Discussion - 2018-12-19

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  233. marc Off-topic but will interest some of you: JMAP is a modern standard for email clients to connect to mail stores. It therefore primarily replaces IMAP + SMTP submission. It does not replace MTA-to-MTA SMTP transmission.
  234. marc https://jmap.io
  235. Zash Nyeh!
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  239. marc The proposed standard is in "Last Call" : https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-jmap-core/
  240. jonas’ can we rm -rf it
  241. Zash We don't take kindly to JSON-HTTP APIs here
  242. pep. Seems like "modern" is synonym for http/json really.
  243. MattJ Oh no, my plans for modernxmpp have been revealed!
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  274. Maranda Is it? That was like that even in 2012
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  276. Maranda That's not very modern
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  293. edhelas https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18715965#18716402
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  302. jonas’ picks random members of board
  303. jonas’ MattJ, Guus, https://trello.com/c/jruUmUzl/321-process-violation-xep-0412 is this the right place for that card? where is your "inbox"?
  304. Guus jonas’: that's it.
  305. jonas’ re buttons: I’m thinking +1, but with a threat that I’m blocking LC if this diverges too much into a XEP-0004 clone. any opinions?
  306. jonas’ is this a nasty thing to do?
  307. jonas’ or even a sensible thing?
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  309. MattJ jonas’, it's a sensible thing to do, no?
  310. MattJ If you're happy with it as-is, approve it
  311. MattJ If you're not happy with it later, don't approve it
  312. jonas’ I’d not say *happy*
  313. MattJ Delighted then :)
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  318. Ge0rG jonas’: maybe it would be good to have the discussion of the protocol first, and the threats later?
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  321. Ge0rG IMHO, it would be great if somebody knowledgeable about XEP-0004 would provide a strawman proto-XEP for Data Form Buttons
  322. jonas’ hm
  323. Ge0rG jonas’: there! you are doing it again!
  324. Link Mauve I started that (and IIRC Zash did too), but in my case because I wanted more options than just buttons, and couldn’t reach something I’d enjoy.
  325. jonas’ oops I did it agaiiiin *singing*
  326. Ge0rG jonas’: so the ’ is for spears?
  327. jonas’ no
  328. jonas’ Ge0rG, I see your point on the competing proposals, but we definitely need XEP-0004 extensions before
  329. Zash Shall I submit the dataforms buttons thing I wrote?
  330. Ge0rG Zash: yes please.
  331. Zash Seems I don't have it on this machine
  332. Ge0rG Zash: actually, you should have submitted it side-by-side with the Simple Buttons, just to scare us into accepting the latter.
  333. Zash Heh
  334. Zash heh
  335. Zash Anyways: http://cerdale.zash.se/upload/lhqGHZ7NyEuQw5Px/xform-buttons.md
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  337. Zash Don't have the markdown conversion code here either
  338. MattJ *https://
  339. Ge0rG Connecting to cerdale.zash.se (cerdale.zash.se)|2a00:66c0:7:1::cd1e|:80... failed: Connection refused. Connecting to cerdale.zash.se (cerdale.zash.se)||:80... failed: Connection refused.
  340. Ge0rG So sad.
  341. Zash https://cerdale.zash.se/upload/lhqGHZ7NyEuQw5Px/xform-buttons.md
  342. Ge0rG https://op-co.de/tmp/xform-buttons.html there, I rendered it for you
  343. Link Mauve Hey, now that everything supports HSTS and HSTS preload, I could probably stop listening on port 80.
  344. Link Mauve Zash, you should add HSTS preload to zash.se.
  345. Ge0rG MitMs Link Mauve
  346. Ge0rG Zash: it's not scary enough.
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  348. Link Mauve Ge0rG, why would it be scary?
  349. Ge0rG Link Mauve: XEP-0004 is scary..
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  352. Link Mauve It’s not.
  353. jonas’ it is
  354. Ge0rG I mean, it's something that can be immediately discovered as scary, as opposed to MUC, which you need a decade to appreciate all the pitfalls of.
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  356. jonas’ it is a weird mix of interactive forms, m2m protocol and overly generic search result reporting
  357. Link Mauve It’s a bit under-specified, but it’s far from scary, even after ten years of working with it.
  358. jonas’ all while it is nearly unextensible in a way which doesn’t break existing implementations
  359. Link Mauve jonas’, “search” result?
  360. jonas’ that reporting stuff
  361. jonas’ which re-uses some parts of the data form wire format in awkward ways
  362. Ge0rG I tend to -0 Buttons because of: - no i18n for the response, leading to surprising results for the user (you press "Ja" and it emits "yes") - the obvious overlap with ad-hoc data command forms
  363. jonas’ Ge0rG, Ad-hoc data forms as in XEP-0050?
  364. Link Mauve Zash, did you also have a version doing ad-hoc, btw?
  365. Zash Link Mauve: no
  366. Link Mauve jonas’, yeah.
  367. ralphm We were looking at something that fills roughly the same role as Facebook Message Templates: https://developers.facebook.com/docs/messenger-platform/send-messages/templates/
  368. ralphm Where besides buttons, you also have other UI elements that you can describe semantically, like image carousels.
  369. ralphm XEP-0004 isn't _really_ the most ideal for this kind of use case.
  370. Ge0rG Buttons doen't have any of those except for buttons, and those are half-i18ned
  371. ralphm We haven't gone as far as defining an XML format for it yet, though.
  372. MattJ ralphm, I'm currently working on similar (also mapping Facebook to XMPP), buttons will be a part of that
  373. ralphm Ge0rG: sure, just giving some context
  374. ralphm MattJ: interesting!
  375. Ge0rG ralphm: I like the comparison to the facebook thing, BTW. I'm sure they invested heeavily into MVPing it
  376. Ge0rG I'd love to see buttons and polls actually.
  377. ralphm Problem with XEP-0004 is that all interactions are around, well, submitting a form.
  378. ralphm That's not the same as what Facebook-like templates do. There, you define an action for a specific button, taking some context into consideration.
  379. ralphm But yeah, polls is another such thing.
  380. jonas’ ralphm, though it’s possible to map the selection of a button from a set of buttons to list-single
  381. Zash list-single-actually-a-button
  382. ralphm jonas’: the problem is generally that you want a set of (hidden) fields to send along with such an action. So it might be that one button is like submitting a form, but the 'template' itself isn't one.
  383. jonas’ ralphm, you can have multiple forms
  384. jonas’ in a single message
  385. jonas’ (playing devil’s advocate here, I’m not convinced that XEP-0004 as-is is the right thing either)
  386. ralphm jonas’: yes, sure, forms could be part of the presentation, but then you need some container format that is basically your (semantic) presentation of the whole thing.
  387. jonas’ probably
  388. ralphm I'm not convinced that the generic nature of XEP-0004 brings something to the table for this use case, but maybe it does.
  389. Link Mauve All of this really sounds like 0050.
  390. Link Mauve With extended 0004.
  391. jonas’ except that '50 can’t have message context
  392. jonas’ (again, as-is)
  393. ralphm And maybe media sharing and maybe other things.
  394. Ge0rG ralphm: don't those things end up being the same if the action is defined by the original sender of the form?
  395. ralphm Ge0rG: well, maybe. The idea of XEP-0004 is that you can generically display any such form, without the client necessarily knowing about the business logic or meaning of fields.
  396. Ge0rG ralphm: so if we had 0004 with additional buttons and label i18n, we would have a superset of Buttons, Polls etc?
  397. Ge0rG Maybe also with a specified way to convey this in regular messages?
  398. ralphm I think that it is quite possible to do something similar to Facebook templates for XMPP, but not sure that using XEP-0004 of the basis of that format is the right approach. Clicking a button might trigger submitting a XEP-0004 form, similar to XEP-0050, sure.
  399. pep. I agree that it does sound like 0050. Maybe there can be some work done to have it work with messages?
  400. jonas’ (recently I’ve been thinking that we should replace messages with IQs :-X)
  401. Ge0rG jonas’: that idea was brought up before
  402. pep. jonas’: what is the motivation?
  403. jonas’ pep., helps us get rid of all the reciepts and delivery uncertainty
  404. ralphm I.e. you'd probably like at least buttons, lists (with media), and maybe a caroussel of the former.
  405. ralphm anyway, there are two things here: the presentational format (semantic, not dictating formatting), and processing actions from them.
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  407. pep. jonas’: right I was also thinking about that when you mentioned IQs.
  408. pep. You only get one level of acks though with this. People will still want "read" markers
  409. ralphm for more context, this is Facebook's view on buttons (that can be used in templates): https://developers.facebook.com/docs/messenger-platform/send-messages/buttons
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  412. Ge0rG pep.: yes, you IQ-send messages to your server and it does reliable delivery™
  413. jonas’ like with SMTP
  414. jonas’ on each step there is a defined handover; it’s not fire & forget
  415. jonas’ you have at-least-once semantics with SMTP, provided that required entities can be contacted within a timeout
  416. jonas’ (and don’t lie about taking responsibility for a message)
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  418. pep. I'm all for reliable delivery™!
  419. pep. XMPP3 when?
  420. Zash XMPP 2000
  421. Ge0rG XMPP 3000 Plus
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