XSF Discussion - 2018-12-19

  1. mrdoctorwho has joined

  2. jjrh has left

  3. efrit has joined

  4. lumi has joined

  5. Zash has left

  6. Neustradamus has left

  7. Neustradamus has joined

  8. Neustradamus has left

  9. Neustradamus has joined

  10. thorsten has left

  11. thorsten has joined

  12. marc has joined

  13. Neustradamus has left

  14. blabla has joined

  15. Neustradamus has joined

  16. UsL has left

  17. UsL has joined

  18. frainz has joined

  19. jjrh has left

  20. marc has left

  21. frainz has left

  22. frainz has joined

  23. efrit has left

  24. marc has joined

  25. lskdjf has joined

  26. dos has left

  27. lorddavidiii has left

  28. jjrh has left

  29. jjrh has left

  30. lorddavidiii has joined

  31. dos has left

  32. frainz has left

  33. frainz has joined

  34. lskdjf has joined

  35. jjrh has left

  36. jjrh has left

  37. Marc Laporte has joined

  38. oli has joined

  39. Kev has left

  40. Kev has left

  41. Marc Laporte has left

  42. Marc Laporte has joined

  43. oli has left

  44. oli has joined

  45. frainz has left

  46. frainz has joined

  47. Marc Laporte has left

  48. frainz has left

  49. frainz has joined

  50. igoose has joined

  51. frainz has left

  52. frainz has joined

  53. Marc Laporte has joined

  54. ta has left

  55. matlag has joined

  56. frainz has left

  57. frainz has joined

  58. moparisthebest has left

  59. moparisthebest has joined

  60. Yagiza has joined

  61. Nekit has joined

  62. Marc Laporte has left

  63. ta has left

  64. Tobias has joined

  65. mimi89999 has left

  66. flow has left

  67. oli has joined

  68. lnj has joined

  69. lnj has left

  70. valo has joined

  71. waqas has left

  72. lovetox has left

  73. lovetox has joined

  74. neshtaxmpp has left

  75. neshtaxmpp has left

  76. sezuan has left

  77. moparisthebest has joined

  78. moparisthebest has joined

  79. sezuan has left

  80. frainz has left

  81. frainz has joined

  82. Nekit has left

  83. Nekit has joined

  84. Ge0rG has joined

  85. labdsf has left

  86. tux has left

  87. tux has joined

  88. Nekit has left

  89. Nekit has joined

  90. oli has joined

  91. andy has joined

  92. andy has left

  93. andy has joined

  94. sezuan has left

  95. APach has left

  96. APach has joined

  97. oli has left

  98. oli has joined

  99. Ge0rG has left

  100. lorddavidiii has left

  101. lorddavidiii has joined

  102. valo has joined

  103. lovetox has left

  104. lorddavidiii has left

  105. lovetox has joined

  106. lovetox has left

  107. Ge0rG has joined

  108. jjrh has left

  109. Zash has joined

  110. oli has joined

  111. lovetox has joined

  112. oli has joined

  113. Steve Kille has left

  114. nyco has left

  115. Ge0rG has left

  116. Ge0rG has joined

  117. moparisthebest has joined

  118. labdsf has joined

  119. Steve Kille has joined

  120. Maranda has joined

  121. Maranda has joined

  122. flow has joined

  123. Nekit has left

  124. Nekit has joined

  125. mimi89999 has left

  126. frainz has left

  127. l has left

  128. l has joined

  129. frainz has left

  130. genofire has left

  131. Kev has left

  132. Kev has left

  133. Zash has left

  134. Zash has joined

  135. ThibG has joined

  136. lorddavidiii has joined

  137. Zash has left

  138. valo has left

  139. valo has joined

  140. oli has joined

  141. Syndace has left

  142. Syndace has joined

  143. mrdoctorwho has left

  144. mrdoctorwho has joined

  145. ThibG has joined

  146. ralphm has joined

  147. ThibG has joined

  148. oli has joined

  149. ta has joined

  150. frainz has left

  151. 404.city has joined

  152. frainz has joined

  153. dos has left

  154. neshtaxmpp has joined

  155. lorddavidiii has left

  156. dos has left

  157. moparisthebest has joined

  158. oli has joined

  159. !xsf_martin has joined

  160. lumi has joined

  161. rion has left

  162. ThibG has left

  163. ThibG has joined

  164. lumi has joined

  165. rion has left

  166. frainz has left

  167. frainz has joined

  168. oli has joined

  169. neshtaxmpp has joined

  170. mimi89999 has joined

  171. winfried has left

  172. ralphm has left

  173. mimi89999 has joined

  174. Zash has left

  175. lskdjf has joined

  176. neshtaxmpp has left

  177. neshtaxmpp has left

  178. lorddavidiii has joined

  179. thorsten has left

  180. APach has left

  181. neshtaxmpp has joined

  182. oli has joined

  183. ralphm has left

  184. APach has joined

  185. oli has joined

  186. Alex has joined

  187. 404.city has left

  188. !xsf_martin has left

  189. !xsf_martin has joined

  190. ta has left

  191. frainz has left

  192. frainz has joined

  193. ThibG has joined

  194. lorddavidiii has left

  195. frainz has left

  196. frainz has joined

  197. lorddavidiii has joined

  198. frainz has joined

  199. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  200. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  201. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  202. lorddavidiii has left

  203. 404.city has joined

  204. ThibG has joined

  205. ThibG has joined

  206. lorddavidiii has joined

  207. frainz has left

  208. Wiktor has joined

  209. frainz has joined

  210. frainz has joined

  211. alacer has joined

  212. alacer has left

  213. alacer has joined

  214. labdsf has left

  215. labdsf has joined

  216. frainz has left

  217. alacer has left

  218. alacer has joined

  219. ThibG has left

  220. ThibG has joined

  221. frainz has joined

  222. tux has left

  223. alacer has left

  224. alacer has joined

  225. jjrh has left

  226. tux has left

  227. thorsten has left

  228. marc has left

  229. marc has joined

  230. alacer has left

  231. ThibG has left

  232. ThibG has joined

  233. marc

    Off-topic but will interest some of you: JMAP is a modern standard for email clients to connect to mail stores. It therefore primarily replaces IMAP + SMTP submission. It does not replace MTA-to-MTA SMTP transmission.

  234. marc


  235. Zash


  236. flow has left

  237. Alex has left

  238. flow has joined

  239. marc

    The proposed standard is in "Last Call" : https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-jmap-core/

  240. jonas’

    can we rm -rf it

  241. Zash

    We don't take kindly to JSON-HTTP APIs here

  242. pep.

    Seems like "modern" is synonym for http/json really.

  243. MattJ

    Oh no, my plans for modernxmpp have been revealed!

  244. efrit has joined

  245. waqas has joined

  246. Marc Laporte has joined

  247. neshtaxmpp has left

  248. lorddavidiii has left

  249. lorddavidiii has joined

  250. Zash has left

  251. Zash has left

  252. lorddavidiii has left

  253. lorddavidiii has joined

  254. lorddavidiii has left

  255. lorddavidiii has joined

  256. lorddavidiii has left

  257. lorddavidiii has joined

  258. labdsf has left

  259. labdsf has joined

  260. Marc Laporte has left

  261. Zash has left

  262. labdsf has left

  263. labdsf has joined

  264. Marc Laporte has joined

  265. ThibG has joined

  266. ThibG has joined

  267. Zash has left

  268. Marc Laporte has left

  269. Wiktor has left

  270. Marc Laporte has joined

  271. andy has left

  272. lorddavidiii has left

  273. Marc Laporte has left

  274. Maranda

    Is it? That was like that even in 2012

  275. blabla has left

  276. Maranda

    That's not very modern

  277. blabla has joined

  278. ta has left

  279. ThibG has left

  280. lnj has joined

  281. ThibG has joined

  282. ThibG has left

  283. neshtaxmpp has joined

  284. ThibG has joined

  285. marc has left

  286. ThibG has left

  287. marc has joined

  288. ThibG has joined

  289. jjrh has left

  290. tux has left

  291. jjrh has left

  292. Zash has left

  293. edhelas


  294. lskdjf has joined

  295. jjrh has left

  296. thorsten has joined

  297. jjrh has left

  298. jjrh has left

  299. Steve Kille has left

  300. Steve Kille has left

  301. Steve Kille has joined

  302. jonas’ picks random members of board

  303. jonas’

    MattJ, Guus, https://trello.com/c/jruUmUzl/321-process-violation-xep-0412 is this the right place for that card? where is your "inbox"?

  304. Guus

    jonas’: that's it.

  305. jonas’

    re buttons: I’m thinking +1, but with a threat that I’m blocking LC if this diverges too much into a XEP-0004 clone. any opinions?

  306. jonas’

    is this a nasty thing to do?

  307. jonas’

    or even a sensible thing?

  308. Ge0rG has left

  309. MattJ

    jonas’, it's a sensible thing to do, no?

  310. MattJ

    If you're happy with it as-is, approve it

  311. MattJ

    If you're not happy with it later, don't approve it

  312. jonas’

    I’d not say *happy*

  313. MattJ

    Delighted then :)

  314. winfried has left

  315. lskdjf has joined

  316. 404.city has left

  317. APach has left

  318. Ge0rG

    jonas’: maybe it would be good to have the discussion of the protocol first, and the threats later?

  319. lorddavidiii has joined

  320. APach has joined

  321. Ge0rG

    IMHO, it would be great if somebody knowledgeable about XEP-0004 would provide a strawman proto-XEP for Data Form Buttons

  322. jonas’


  323. Ge0rG

    jonas’: there! you are doing it again!

  324. Link Mauve

    I started that (and IIRC Zash did too), but in my case because I wanted more options than just buttons, and couldn’t reach something I’d enjoy.

  325. jonas’

    oops I did it agaiiiin *singing*

  326. Ge0rG

    jonas’: so the ’ is for spears?

  327. jonas’


  328. jonas’

    Ge0rG, I see your point on the competing proposals, but we definitely need XEP-0004 extensions before

  329. Zash

    Shall I submit the dataforms buttons thing I wrote?

  330. Ge0rG

    Zash: yes please.

  331. Zash

    Seems I don't have it on this machine

  332. Ge0rG

    Zash: actually, you should have submitted it side-by-side with the Simple Buttons, just to scare us into accepting the latter.

  333. Zash


  334. Zash


  335. Zash

    Anyways: http://cerdale.zash.se/upload/lhqGHZ7NyEuQw5Px/xform-buttons.md

  336. lskdjf has left

  337. Zash

    Don't have the markdown conversion code here either

  338. MattJ


  339. Ge0rG

    Connecting to cerdale.zash.se (cerdale.zash.se)|2a00:66c0:7:1::cd1e|:80... failed: Connection refused. Connecting to cerdale.zash.se (cerdale.zash.se)||:80... failed: Connection refused.

  340. Ge0rG

    So sad.

  341. Zash


  342. Ge0rG

    https://op-co.de/tmp/xform-buttons.html there, I rendered it for you

  343. Link Mauve

    Hey, now that everything supports HSTS and HSTS preload, I could probably stop listening on port 80.

  344. Link Mauve

    Zash, you should add HSTS preload to zash.se.

  345. Ge0rG MitMs Link Mauve

  346. Ge0rG

    Zash: it's not scary enough.

  347. labdsf has left

  348. Link Mauve

    Ge0rG, why would it be scary?

  349. Ge0rG

    Link Mauve: XEP-0004 is scary..

  350. rion has left

  351. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  352. Link Mauve

    It’s not.

  353. jonas’

    it is

  354. Ge0rG

    I mean, it's something that can be immediately discovered as scary, as opposed to MUC, which you need a decade to appreciate all the pitfalls of.

  355. Kev has left

  356. jonas’

    it is a weird mix of interactive forms, m2m protocol and overly generic search result reporting

  357. Link Mauve

    It’s a bit under-specified, but it’s far from scary, even after ten years of working with it.

  358. jonas’

    all while it is nearly unextensible in a way which doesn’t break existing implementations

  359. Link Mauve

    jonas’, “search” result?

  360. jonas’

    that reporting stuff

  361. jonas’

    which re-uses some parts of the data form wire format in awkward ways

  362. Ge0rG

    I tend to -0 Buttons because of: - no i18n for the response, leading to surprising results for the user (you press "Ja" and it emits "yes") - the obvious overlap with ad-hoc data command forms

  363. jonas’

    Ge0rG, Ad-hoc data forms as in XEP-0050?

  364. Link Mauve

    Zash, did you also have a version doing ad-hoc, btw?

  365. Zash

    Link Mauve: no

  366. Link Mauve

    jonas’, yeah.

  367. ralphm

    We were looking at something that fills roughly the same role as Facebook Message Templates: https://developers.facebook.com/docs/messenger-platform/send-messages/templates/

  368. ralphm

    Where besides buttons, you also have other UI elements that you can describe semantically, like image carousels.

  369. ralphm

    XEP-0004 isn't _really_ the most ideal for this kind of use case.

  370. Ge0rG

    Buttons doen't have any of those except for buttons, and those are half-i18ned

  371. ralphm

    We haven't gone as far as defining an XML format for it yet, though.

  372. MattJ

    ralphm, I'm currently working on similar (also mapping Facebook to XMPP), buttons will be a part of that

  373. ralphm

    Ge0rG: sure, just giving some context

  374. ralphm

    MattJ: interesting!

  375. Ge0rG

    ralphm: I like the comparison to the facebook thing, BTW. I'm sure they invested heeavily into MVPing it

  376. Ge0rG

    I'd love to see buttons and polls actually.

  377. ralphm

    Problem with XEP-0004 is that all interactions are around, well, submitting a form.

  378. ralphm

    That's not the same as what Facebook-like templates do. There, you define an action for a specific button, taking some context into consideration.

  379. ralphm

    But yeah, polls is another such thing.

  380. jonas’

    ralphm, though it’s possible to map the selection of a button from a set of buttons to list-single

  381. Zash


  382. ralphm

    jonas’: the problem is generally that you want a set of (hidden) fields to send along with such an action. So it might be that one button is like submitting a form, but the 'template' itself isn't one.

  383. jonas’

    ralphm, you can have multiple forms

  384. jonas’

    in a single message

  385. jonas’

    (playing devil’s advocate here, I’m not convinced that XEP-0004 as-is is the right thing either)

  386. ralphm

    jonas’: yes, sure, forms could be part of the presentation, but then you need some container format that is basically your (semantic) presentation of the whole thing.

  387. jonas’


  388. ralphm

    I'm not convinced that the generic nature of XEP-0004 brings something to the table for this use case, but maybe it does.

  389. Link Mauve

    All of this really sounds like 0050.

  390. Link Mauve

    With extended 0004.

  391. jonas’

    except that '50 can’t have message context

  392. jonas’

    (again, as-is)

  393. ralphm

    And maybe media sharing and maybe other things.

  394. Ge0rG

    ralphm: don't those things end up being the same if the action is defined by the original sender of the form?

  395. ralphm

    Ge0rG: well, maybe. The idea of XEP-0004 is that you can generically display any such form, without the client necessarily knowing about the business logic or meaning of fields.

  396. Ge0rG

    ralphm: so if we had 0004 with additional buttons and label i18n, we would have a superset of Buttons, Polls etc?

  397. Ge0rG

    Maybe also with a specified way to convey this in regular messages?

  398. ralphm

    I think that it is quite possible to do something similar to Facebook templates for XMPP, but not sure that using XEP-0004 of the basis of that format is the right approach. Clicking a button might trigger submitting a XEP-0004 form, similar to XEP-0050, sure.

  399. pep.

    I agree that it does sound like 0050. Maybe there can be some work done to have it work with messages?

  400. jonas’

    (recently I’ve been thinking that we should replace messages with IQs :-X)

  401. Ge0rG

    jonas’: that idea was brought up before

  402. pep.

    jonas’: what is the motivation?

  403. jonas’

    pep., helps us get rid of all the reciepts and delivery uncertainty

  404. ralphm

    I.e. you'd probably like at least buttons, lists (with media), and maybe a caroussel of the former.

  405. ralphm

    anyway, there are two things here: the presentational format (semantic, not dictating formatting), and processing actions from them.

  406. Kev has left

  407. pep.

    jonas’: right I was also thinking about that when you mentioned IQs.

  408. pep.

    You only get one level of acks though with this. People will still want "read" markers

  409. ralphm

    for more context, this is Facebook's view on buttons (that can be used in templates): https://developers.facebook.com/docs/messenger-platform/send-messages/buttons

  410. l has left

  411. l has joined

  412. Ge0rG

    pep.: yes, you IQ-send messages to your server and it does reliable delivery™

  413. jonas’

    like with SMTP

  414. jonas’

    on each step there is a defined handover; it’s not fire & forget

  415. jonas’

    you have at-least-once semantics with SMTP, provided that required entities can be contacted within a timeout

  416. jonas’

    (and don’t lie about taking responsibility for a message)

  417. Ge0rG has left

  418. pep.

    I'm all for reliable delivery™!

  419. pep.

    XMPP3 when?

  420. Zash

    XMPP 2000

  421. Ge0rG

    XMPP 3000 Plus

  422. l has joined

  423. efrit has left

  424. l has left

  425. l has joined

  426. Nekit has left

  427. Nekit has joined

  428. Ge0rG has left

  429. lskdjf has joined

  430. marc_ has joined

  431. Wiktor has left

  432. Wiktor has joined

  433. vaulor has left

  434. l has left

  435. l has joined

  436. lskdjf has joined

  437. edhelas has joined

  438. nyco has joined

  439. nyco has joined

  440. edhelas has joined

  441. nyco has joined

  442. labdsf has joined

  443. moparisthebest has joined

  444. moparisthebest has joined

  445. marc_ has left

  446. lskdjf has left

  447. 404.city has joined

  448. marc_ has joined

  449. tux has joined

  450. tux has joined

  451. lskdjf has joined

  452. ThibG has left

  453. ThibG has joined

  454. Yagiza has left

  455. Nekit has left

  456. Nekit has joined

  457. efrit has joined

  458. krauq has joined

  459. l has left

  460. ta has left

  461. jjrh has left

  462. jjrh has left

  463. Zash has left

  464. marc has left

  465. marc has joined

  466. ralphm has left

  467. Zash has joined

  468. Zash has left

  469. Zash has joined

  470. moparisthebest has left

  471. moparisthebest has joined

  472. lskdjf has joined

  473. lorddavidiii has left

  474. l has joined

  475. l has joined

  476. krauq has joined

  477. jjrh has left

  478. marc has left

  479. marc has joined

  480. blabla has left

  481. blabla has joined

  482. frainz has left

  483. frainz has joined

  484. 404.city has left

  485. lnj has left

  486. Wiktor has left

  487. Nekit has joined

  488. oli has joined

  489. sezuan has left

  490. labdsf has left

  491. frainz has left

  492. Tobias has joined

  493. l has left

  494. l has joined

  495. lorddavidiii has joined

  496. labdsf has joined

  497. Marc Laporte has joined

  498. blabla has left

  499. blabla has joined

  500. Marc Laporte has left

  501. l has joined

  502. Marc Laporte has joined

  503. moparisthebest has left

  504. moparisthebest has joined

  505. jjrh has left

  506. tux has left

  507. lorddavidiii has left

  508. jjrh has left

  509. Marc Laporte has left

  510. mr.fister has joined

  511. Marc Laporte has joined

  512. !xsf_martin has left

  513. neshtaxmpp has left

  514. neshtaxmpp has left

  515. thorsten has left

  516. neshtaxmpp has joined

  517. marc_ has left

  518. lovetox has left

  519. mr.fister has left

  520. mr.fister has joined

  521. jjrh has left

  522. Ge0rG has joined

  523. mr.fister has left

  524. mr.fister has joined

  525. l has joined

  526. l has joined

  527. l has joined

  528. l has joined

  529. l has joined

  530. jjrh has left

  531. tux has left

  532. mr.fister has left

  533. mr.fister has joined

  534. jjrh has left

  535. l has joined

  536. l has joined

  537. l has joined

  538. l has joined

  539. l has joined

  540. l has joined

  541. l has left

  542. l has joined

  543. Neustradamus has left

  544. Neustradamus has joined

  545. Marc Laporte has left

  546. ThibG has joined

  547. ThibG has joined

  548. l has left

  549. l has joined

  550. l has left

  551. l has joined

  552. winfried has left

  553. l has joined

  554. l has joined

  555. l has left

  556. l has joined

  557. jonas’ has left

  558. jonas’ has joined

  559. dos has left

  560. mr.fister has joined

  561. mr.fister has joined

  562. jjrh has left

  563. sezuan has left

  564. lumi has left