-
marc
Off-topic but will interest some of you: JMAP is a modern standard for email clients to connect to mail stores. It therefore primarily replaces IMAP + SMTP submission. It does not replace MTA-to-MTA SMTP transmission.
-
marc
https://jmap.io
-
Zash
Nyeh!
-
marc
The proposed standard is in "Last Call" : https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-jmap-core/
-
jonas’
can we rm -rf it
-
Zash
We don't take kindly to JSON-HTTP APIs here
-
pep.
Seems like "modern" is synonym for http/json really.
-
MattJ
Oh no, my plans for modernxmpp have been revealed!
-
Maranda
Is it? That was like that even in 2012
-
Maranda
That's not very modern
-
edhelas
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18715965#18716402
- jonas’ picks random members of board
-
jonas’
MattJ, Guus, https://trello.com/c/jruUmUzl/321-process-violation-xep-0412 is this the right place for that card? where is your "inbox"?
-
Guus
jonas’: that's it.
-
jonas’
re buttons: I’m thinking +1, but with a threat that I’m blocking LC if this diverges too much into a XEP-0004 clone. any opinions?
-
jonas’
is this a nasty thing to do?
-
jonas’
or even a sensible thing?
-
MattJ
jonas’, it's a sensible thing to do, no?
-
MattJ
If you're happy with it as-is, approve it
-
MattJ
If you're not happy with it later, don't approve it
-
jonas’
I’d not say *happy*
-
MattJ
Delighted then :)
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: maybe it would be good to have the discussion of the protocol first, and the threats later?
-
Ge0rG
IMHO, it would be great if somebody knowledgeable about XEP-0004 would provide a strawman proto-XEP for Data Form Buttons
-
jonas’
hm
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: there! you are doing it again!
-
Link Mauve
I started that (and IIRC Zash did too), but in my case because I wanted more options than just buttons, and couldn’t reach something I’d enjoy.
-
jonas’
oops I did it agaiiiin *singing*
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: so the ’ is for spears?
-
jonas’
no
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, I see your point on the competing proposals, but we definitely need XEP-0004 extensions before
-
Zash
Shall I submit the dataforms buttons thing I wrote?
-
Ge0rG
Zash: yes please.
-
Zash
Seems I don't have it on this machine
-
Ge0rG
Zash: actually, you should have submitted it side-by-side with the Simple Buttons, just to scare us into accepting the latter.
-
Zash
Heh
-
Zash
heh
-
Zash
Anyways: http://cerdale.zash.se/upload/lhqGHZ7NyEuQw5Px/xform-buttons.md
-
Zash
Don't have the markdown conversion code here either
-
MattJ
*https://
-
Ge0rG
Connecting to cerdale.zash.se (cerdale.zash.se)|2a00:66c0:7:1::cd1e|:80... failed: Connection refused. Connecting to cerdale.zash.se (cerdale.zash.se)|77.110.10.20|:80... failed: Connection refused.
-
Ge0rG
So sad.
-
Zash
https://cerdale.zash.se/upload/lhqGHZ7NyEuQw5Px/xform-buttons.md
-
Ge0rG
https://op-co.de/tmp/xform-buttons.html there, I rendered it for you
-
Link Mauve
Hey, now that everything supports HSTS and HSTS preload, I could probably stop listening on port 80.
-
Link Mauve
Zash, you should add HSTS preload to zash.se.
- Ge0rG MitMs Link Mauve
-
Ge0rG
Zash: it's not scary enough.
-
Link Mauve
Ge0rG, why would it be scary?
-
Ge0rG
Link Mauve: XEP-0004 is scary..
-
Link Mauve
It’s not.
-
jonas’
it is
-
Ge0rG
I mean, it's something that can be immediately discovered as scary, as opposed to MUC, which you need a decade to appreciate all the pitfalls of.
-
jonas’
it is a weird mix of interactive forms, m2m protocol and overly generic search result reporting
-
Link Mauve
It’s a bit under-specified, but it’s far from scary, even after ten years of working with it.
-
jonas’
all while it is nearly unextensible in a way which doesn’t break existing implementations
-
Link Mauve
jonas’, “search” result?
-
jonas’
that reporting stuff
-
jonas’
which re-uses some parts of the data form wire format in awkward ways
-
Ge0rG
I tend to -0 Buttons because of: - no i18n for the response, leading to surprising results for the user (you press "Ja" and it emits "yes") - the obvious overlap with ad-hoc data command forms
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, Ad-hoc data forms as in XEP-0050?
-
Link Mauve
Zash, did you also have a version doing ad-hoc, btw?
-
Zash
Link Mauve: no
-
Link Mauve
jonas’, yeah.
-
ralphm
We were looking at something that fills roughly the same role as Facebook Message Templates: https://developers.facebook.com/docs/messenger-platform/send-messages/templates/
-
ralphm
Where besides buttons, you also have other UI elements that you can describe semantically, like image carousels.
-
ralphm
XEP-0004 isn't _really_ the most ideal for this kind of use case.
-
Ge0rG
Buttons doen't have any of those except for buttons, and those are half-i18ned
-
ralphm
We haven't gone as far as defining an XML format for it yet, though.
-
MattJ
ralphm, I'm currently working on similar (also mapping Facebook to XMPP), buttons will be a part of that
-
ralphm
Ge0rG: sure, just giving some context
-
ralphm
MattJ: interesting!
-
Ge0rG
ralphm: I like the comparison to the facebook thing, BTW. I'm sure they invested heeavily into MVPing it
-
Ge0rG
I'd love to see buttons and polls actually.
-
ralphm
Problem with XEP-0004 is that all interactions are around, well, submitting a form.
-
ralphm
That's not the same as what Facebook-like templates do. There, you define an action for a specific button, taking some context into consideration.
-
ralphm
But yeah, polls is another such thing.
-
jonas’
ralphm, though it’s possible to map the selection of a button from a set of buttons to list-single
-
Zash
list-single-actually-a-button
-
ralphm
jonas’: the problem is generally that you want a set of (hidden) fields to send along with such an action. So it might be that one button is like submitting a form, but the 'template' itself isn't one.
-
jonas’
ralphm, you can have multiple forms
-
jonas’
in a single message
-
jonas’
(playing devil’s advocate here, I’m not convinced that XEP-0004 as-is is the right thing either)
-
ralphm
jonas’: yes, sure, forms could be part of the presentation, but then you need some container format that is basically your (semantic) presentation of the whole thing.
-
jonas’
probably
-
ralphm
I'm not convinced that the generic nature of XEP-0004 brings something to the table for this use case, but maybe it does.
-
Link Mauve
All of this really sounds like 0050.
-
Link Mauve
With extended 0004.
-
jonas’
except that '50 can’t have message context
-
jonas’
(again, as-is)
-
ralphm
And maybe media sharing and maybe other things.
-
Ge0rG
ralphm: don't those things end up being the same if the action is defined by the original sender of the form?
-
ralphm
Ge0rG: well, maybe. The idea of XEP-0004 is that you can generically display any such form, without the client necessarily knowing about the business logic or meaning of fields.
-
Ge0rG
ralphm: so if we had 0004 with additional buttons and label i18n, we would have a superset of Buttons, Polls etc?
-
Ge0rG
Maybe also with a specified way to convey this in regular messages?
-
ralphm
I think that it is quite possible to do something similar to Facebook templates for XMPP, but not sure that using XEP-0004 of the basis of that format is the right approach. Clicking a button might trigger submitting a XEP-0004 form, similar to XEP-0050, sure.
-
pep.
I agree that it does sound like 0050. Maybe there can be some work done to have it work with messages?
-
jonas’
(recently I’ve been thinking that we should replace messages with IQs :-X)
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: that idea was brought up before
-
pep.
jonas’: what is the motivation?
-
jonas’
pep., helps us get rid of all the reciepts and delivery uncertainty
-
ralphm
I.e. you'd probably like at least buttons, lists (with media), and maybe a caroussel of the former.
-
ralphm
anyway, there are two things here: the presentational format (semantic, not dictating formatting), and processing actions from them.
-
pep.
jonas’: right I was also thinking about that when you mentioned IQs.
-
pep.
You only get one level of acks though with this. People will still want "read" markers
-
ralphm
for more context, this is Facebook's view on buttons (that can be used in templates): https://developers.facebook.com/docs/messenger-platform/send-messages/buttons
-
Ge0rG
pep.: yes, you IQ-send messages to your server and it does reliable delivery™
-
jonas’
like with SMTP
-
jonas’
on each step there is a defined handover; it’s not fire & forget
-
jonas’
you have at-least-once semantics with SMTP, provided that required entities can be contacted within a timeout
-
jonas’
(and don’t lie about taking responsibility for a message)
-
pep.
I'm all for reliable delivery™!
-
pep.
XMPP3 when?
-
Zash
XMPP 2000
-
Ge0rG
XMPP 3000 Plus