XSF Discussion - 2018-12-21

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  167. Guus jonas’, as per MattJ suggestion, I merged both -docker projects of the observatory into the original project. With that, I think we can drop the docker-specific projects, unless you object.
  168. jonas’ wfm
  169. jonas’ you need to take care to setup the docker hub thing though
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  171. Guus ehh... I'll try 🙂
  172. Guus I've also invited xnyphs, btw.
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  175. Guus maybe create a corresponding xmpp-observatory account on docker hub?
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  181. MattJ Guus: thanks! How did you deal with the submodules?
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  186. Ge0rG was asked about a windows client that supports XEP-0184 and was once again disappointed about us officially endorsing Pidgin
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  189. Guus MattJ what submodules?
  190. Guus (I did not)
  191. Link Mauve Ge0rG, did Gajim not work?
  192. Ge0rG Link Mauve: I don't know
  193. Link Mauve Why did you recommend Pidgin over it then?
  194. Ge0rG Link Mauve: I'm speaking of the listing at https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html which I wanted to be a list of *actively maintained* clients.
  195. Link Mauve And out of all of the actively maintained clients, you picked Pidgin?
  196. Ge0rG but then somebody submitted Pidgin, and because we are neutral, we can not resist its addition, despite everybody on our side knowing how harmful it is.
  197. Ge0rG Link Mauve: no.
  198. Link Mauve Oh, now I understand.
  199. Link Mauve Sorry.
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  204. MattJ Guus: no worries, I'll figure something out in the Dockerfile I think
  205. Guus @mattj, i just finished setting up docker hub builds for both projects
  206. Guus do you have an account there? I'd like to add you.
  207. MattJ Thanks!
  208. MattJ mwild1
  209. Guus added: https://cloud.docker.com/u/xmppobservatory
  210. MattJ Got it, thanks
  211. Guus I think that's about what I know what/how to do
  212. Guus I didn't remove the old -docker projects yet, but that can be done now, I think.
  213. MattJ Don't yet
  214. Guus maybe I'd be good if you verify first that I didn't make to many obvious mistakes.
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  216. MattJ Pretty sure the new stuff will not build correctly yet
  217. MattJ It was using submodules for pulling in some dependencies
  218. Guus unsure if the migration thingy I used merged those
  219. Guus I didn't notice hg submodules (nor did I check for them)
  220. Guus I'm not seeing a .gitmodules, so it probably didn't migrate.
  221. MattJ I don't remember what they all are, but at least one of them we were going to drop, and probably any others should be too
  222. MattJ Some were hg repos, so it would have needed to migrate those
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  225. Guus Can I leave this in your capable hands?
  226. MattJ Which wouldn't be ideal anyway, since they are separate projects I maintain in hg
  227. MattJ Sure
  228. Guus Thanks. Do we need submodules, or can we use a shared artifact somehow perhaps?
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  230. MattJ If needed I'll just make the dockerfile clone the dependencies itself
  231. Guus for what its worth, that already seems to happen a lot
  232. Guus What's probably not ideal is that the dockerfile clones RUN hg clone https://bitbucket.org/mattj/xmppoke 🙂
  233. Guus What's probably not ideal is that the dockerfile clones https://bitbucket.org/mattj/xmppoke 🙂
  234. Guus (I blindly merged the projects, didn't update any references)
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  250. Ge0rG Is the call for logo design published anywhere? I've had a logo designer asking me about redoing the yaxim logo some months ago, but I like my logo very much so I'd rather ask them to do something for the wider community
  251. Guus jonas’ should we move the xmppoke-queue project too?
  252. Guus Ge0rG I don't believe that there's an explicit call, no.
  253. Guus Ge0rG I suggest you coordinate with nyco, who had a designer of his own in mind.
  254. Ge0rG Will there be one?
  255. Ge0rG What would be the best non-ephemeral venue for that? issue on github/xmpp.org?
  256. Guus Board didn't discuss that, so I guess not? Is there a need for such an explicit call?
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  260. Guus the mailing list, perhaps?
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  262. Ge0rG Guus: standards is obviously not the right place, members is for members only; there is no public ML suitable for that.
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  264. Guus You are more precise than I am in these things 🙂
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  273. ralphm I don't think we need to send out such a call just yet
  274. ralphm I'm going to first wait that nyco comes back with
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  278. Ge0rG ralphm: alright. I was just assuming that volunteers might have some time between the holidays
  279. ralphm If people want to volunteer, they can, I just didn't think we needed to put out a call for it.
  280. ralphm Also, I don't think we have minutes for this Board meeting yet. Someone volunteering to do those would be awesome.
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  314. Guus MattJ I ran into those modules you referred to. I worked around them being gone in git by pulling them in through the docker file, as you suggested: https://github.com/xmpp-observatory/xmppoke/pull/1
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  318. Guus when running things locally, I see that xmppoke is invoked when I start a test through the frontend, but it stops immediately.
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  320. erkanfiles Test
  321. Guus a-ok.
  322. erkanfiles ralphm: Still in need for a minutes writer?
  323. Guus erkanfiles yes
  324. Ge0rG erkanfiles: 👍
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  338. erkanfiles So I only have to scroll up in this MUC or where to find the content?
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  340. Ge0rG erkanfiles: the official log is at http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2018-12-20#14:28:50 - in case you don't have full history in your client
  341. erkanfiles K
  342. erkanfiles Where may I submit my results?
  343. Ge0rG erkanfiles: they are typically sent to board@xmpp.org and members@xmpp.org (which are probably both members-only) and you can pastebin them in case you want a second opinion.
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  370. erkanfiles So I couldnt join because of not being member, right?
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  374. daniel stupid question. someone recenctly send me this <message><foo:bar>hi</foo:bar></message/>. is this valid xmpp/xml?
  375. Link Mauve daniel, if an xmlns:foo="something" has been defined on foo:bar or any of its ancestors..
  376. Link Mauve daniel, if an xmlns:foo="something" has been defined on foo:bar or any of its ancestors.
  377. daniel what if it is not?
  378. Link Mauve Then it’s invalid XML.
  379. daniel because : is a reserved char that can not be used for element names even though xmpp doesn’t use that kind of namespace prefixes?
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  381. Link Mauve : in an element name means that what is before : is a prefix, that must have been bound to a namespace, and what is after is a local name to this namespace.
  382. jonas’ Link Mauve, only if you’re talikng XML 1.0 + Namespaces
  383. jonas’ in vanilla XML 1.0, you can use : without namespaces
  384. Link Mauve jonas’, isn’t that what XMPP is using?
  385. Link Mauve jonas’, uh, really? :|
  386. Link Mauve I wasn’t aware that XML could be used without support for namespaces.
  387. jonas’ yes, XMPP uses XML 1.0 + namespaces
  388. jonas’ it can
  389. jonas’ but everybody luckily forgot about that
  390. daniel jonas’, so is this or is this not legal in xmpp?
  391. Link Mauve Note: The Namespaces in XML Recommendation [XML Names] assigns a meaning to names containing colon characters. Therefore, authors should not use the colon in XML names except for namespace purposes, but XML processors must accept the colon as a name character.
  392. jonas’ it is not legal if there isn’t a namespace declaration on the <message/>
  393. jonas’ daniel, it is not legal if there isn’t a namespace declaration on the <message/> for the foo prefix
  394. Link Mauve jonas’, or on the stream:stream, or on foo:bar.
  395. jonas’ Link Mauve, not on the stream:stream
  396. Link Mauve Why?
  397. jonas’ XMPP
  398. jonas’ Namespaces declared in a stream header MUST apply only to that stream (e.g., the 'jabber:server:dialback' namespace used in Server Dialback [XEP-0220]). In particular, because XML stanzas intended for routing or delivery over streams with other entities will lose the namespace context declared in the header of the stream in which those stanzas originated, namespaces for extended content within such stanzas MUST NOT be declared in that stream header (see also Section 8.4).
  399. jonas’ https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6120#section-4.8.5
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  403. jonas’ but yes, it can be on the foo:bar itself, I missed that
  404. Link Mauve jonas’, ugh, that sucks.
  405. jonas’ I was very sad when I learnt that because I intended to declare all the things on the stream header :)
  406. Link Mauve I didn’t know that.
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  412. daniel mhhh ok
  413. jonas’ daniel, in any case, your server sent you somewhat malformed XML
  414. Link Mauve jonas’, can you disable namespace support in most XML libraries?
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  416. jonas’ Link Mauve, most come with it disabled
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  418. daniel i mean you are all confirming what i assumed was the case. but in any case it makes this https://github.com/siacs/Conversations/issues/3315 weird
  419. jonas’ expat and libxml at least
  420. jonas’ you have to enable it
  421. daniel and/or very annoying to debug
  422. Link Mauve jonas’, oO
  423. Link Mauve TIL.
  424. pep. > Ge0rG> Guus: standards is obviously not the right place, members is for members only; there is no public ML suitable for that. I would also like to have such a place tbh. I've been wanting it for some time.
  425. jonas’ Link Mauve, in expat you have to set a flag IIRC
  426. Link Mauve I don’t remember having to do that from Python, but maybe.
  427. jonas’ daniel, ejabberd bug
  428. jonas’ Link Mauve, the high-level python stuff does it for you
  429. daniel jonas’, a known one?
  430. jonas’ the xml.sax doesn’t
  431. jonas’ daniel, not that I know, but I’m not surprised
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  433. daniel i'd be rather surprised tbh
  434. jonas’ daniel, not as far as I know, but I’m not surprised
  435. jonas’ I’m not
  436. jonas’ the namespace support has been sketchy since ever
  437. jonas’ in ejabberd
  438. Link Mauve daniel, “<{null}jabber:x:oob>” sounds like their serialiser did something clearly wrong.
  439. Link Mauve I remember a similar bug being present in Prosody 0.5.1, fixed in 0.5.2.
  440. daniel oh you mean that new compress thing?
  441. Link Mauve (What a blast from the past!)
  442. jonas’ Link Mauve, not clearly, I wouldn’t dare to interpret the output of that XML parser logs
  443. jonas’ it might be some clark notation gone wro... no wait
  444. jonas’ that’s weird
  445. jonas’ but s till
  446. jonas’ without seeing the raw bytes, I wouldn’t blame the serialiser that much for now
  447. Holger jonas': Namespace handling has been rewritten a while ago, but of course there may still be (new) bugs.
  448. daniel yeah it's not easy to get raw bytes from my parser
  449. daniel sigh
  450. jonas’ *although* the error message indeed sounds like a huge messup
  451. Link Mauve Maybe on the other end, it’s easier to get Ejabberd to dump what it’s going to send?
  452. jonas’ it looks as if <jabber:x:oob/> was generated
  453. Link Mauve Yeah.
  454. daniel yeah that's why i was asking for <foo:bar/> initially
  455. jonas’ which is wrong, and that ejabberd lets it through to you is also a bug
  456. daniel i don’t think that the {null} is on the wire
  457. jonas’ Holger, mhm
  458. jonas’ back then™ when I broke ejabberd’s namespace stuff it was still on that other bugtracker
  459. Holger Heh, there's probably no line remaining of the code you broke :-)
  460. jonas’ that’s probably good
  461. jonas’ I recall the breakage to be terrifying
  462. jonas’ ah yes, it swallowed IQs https://support.process-one.net/browse/EJAB-1661
  463. jonas’ good ol’ times
  464. jonas’ this one was also fun: https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/issues/814#issuecomment-153015288
  465. Link Mauve jonas’, that last one is valid though.
  466. Link Mauve It should be parsed to the exact same thing by a namespace-aware parser.
  467. jonas’ I am aware
  468. jonas’ otherwise I wouldn’t have complained :)
  469. pep. Are you a parser?
  470. jonas’ Are you?
  471. pep. I might be, but I'm not fully namespace-aware
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  477. Holger jonas’: Hah, so it was your issue that triggered the initial rewrite I was referring to.
  478. jonas’ the IQ one I didn’t open
  479. jonas’ I just came across it
  480. Holger I meant the second one.
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  522. Ge0rG the Simple Buttons discussion made me realize that we don't have Data Forms in the suite.
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  525. erkanfiles ralphm: I could provide that current minute on wednesday. Is that in time or is it too late?
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  532. ralphm We meet on Thursdays, so that'd be fine!
  533. ralphm Really happy about someone volunteering
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  549. Zash digs up history of buttons.md
  550. jonas’ Guus, I *think* you said the same thing I said in my email to. Where was I unclear?
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  553. jonas’ I tried my best to pick words which don’t make Board seem like the booman here, and which don’t put words in Boards collective unison mouth.
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  556. Guus jonas’: I think you left one part of the reasoning out. Anyway, I wanted to stress that I don't believe you were trying to push people.
  557. jonas’ ok
  558. jonas’ I can live with that :)
  559. jonas’ right, I only brought the second part up in a side note ("[…] and to the community for the extra noise and possible temporary confusion and misguidance due to the published compliance suites you had to endure.")
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  562. Guus Ah right. I read that slightly differently. Oh well.
  563. jonas’ overcommunicating is never bad
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  569. Guus jonas’: I think I prepared for all changes needed to move over to the new observatory repo
  570. jonas’ uh
  571. jonas’ I’d like to postpone this until after the holidays to be honest
  572. jonas’ we’re going to be on the rails tomorrow and there’s some preparations to be made
  574. Guus Care to review the PRs?
  575. Guus Ah ok, fair enough 🙂
  576. jonas’ aand it will hvae scrolled out of my inbox by that time, so pinging me about that in a week or so would be wise
  577. Guus 👍
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  707. MattJ Just noticed my emails... so Buttons is accepted?
  708. MattJ or are there still outstanding votes?
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  710. Zash U want <button xmlns="urn:xmpp:tmp:buttons"> <onclick> <json xmlns="urn:xmpp:json:0">{"payload":"100MT-nuke","target":"earth"}</json> </onclick> <label xml:lang="en">Big Red Button</label> <label xml:lang="sv">Stor Röd Knapp</label> </button>
  711. Zash ?
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  713. MattJ No?
  714. MattJ Are you being sarcastic or why is this so hard? :)
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  716. MattJ The whole point is that the buttons are shortcuts for pieces of text
  717. MattJ Which also makes the points about i18n rather dubious (as I wrote to standards@)
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  719. lovetox yeah i agree the i18n argument is a bit overboard, i never saw bodys with different langs
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  721. lovetox lets be honest, almost no one makes use of that lang feature
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  723. MattJ Right. Last I checked was quite some time ago, and it was not handled very well in clients
  724. MattJ which allows many fun things :)
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  726. lovetox i get its nice to have it defined with the base xmpp spec, so if there is a usecase someone does not have to invent his own stuff, but not every XEP will be able to fully be i18n compatible, and seeing that one of the most important xeps like dataforms is not useable with i18n, lets me think, can this even be done?
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  730. Zash Is there a XEP on how to handle i18n?
  731. Link Mauve lovetox, in most cases dataforms are actually usable with i18n, because you transmit the xml:lang in every stanza you send the responder is able to setup the translation domain correctly.
  732. Link Mauve For buttons it can’t be done that way, because the main point of using it is through a MUC.
  733. Link Mauve So there is no sender/responder.
  734. Zash The main point?
  735. Zash You still get presence from everyone, so you can do ... something
  736. Link Mauve Zash, didn’t you define it so it would work in a MUC?
  737. Link Mauve Zash, well, not really, say half of the people here advertise an @xml:lang of en, then some fr, some de, some ru, some sv, etc.
  738. lovetox also a MUC has in most cases one language
  739. lovetox there is no need for translation
  740. Zash Link Mauve: I tried to make it like it works elsewhere in XMPP wrt i18n, which allows multiple <body xml:lang=*> and such.
  741. Link Mauve lovetox, yet in many cases it allows more than one.
  742. Link Mauve Zash, yeah, that’s fine.
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  745. lovetox also from where should the sender have the translation?
  746. lovetox yeah for Yes and No, its likely he has it
  747. Zash Is that in scope for a protocol?
  748. lovetox but the moment you let the user choose the labels himself, there is no chance he has a translation ready
  749. Zash I imagined this would be from bots mostly
  750. Zash Eg Memberbot
  751. lovetox point is, you can make it super i18n compatible, in reality for the MUC vote case, and thats probably what this is beeing used for, there will be no translations
  752. Zash Allowing for translations doesn't prevent use when there are none
  753. lovetox yeah and Memberbot wants to ask a new question, and then you make a git repo and ask people to translate your memberbot questions into 10 languages or what?
  754. Link Mauve lovetox, yeah, that’s how it’s done in most software.
  755. Link Mauve You have a list of supported languages, translators do the translation work, you often pull them back in your software, and then users can use it in any language they want.
  756. lovetox thats the point, its not part of the software
  757. lovetox the bot allows to ask all possible questions at any point in time
  758. lovetox it would be better to use google translate api
  759. Link Mauve Haha.
  760. Link Mauve That’s just one of your usecases, you don’t need to limit the protocol for other usecases.
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  762. lovetox i dont want to limit it, but it should also not stand in the way
  763. Link Mauve Is it currently standing in the way, in the current proposal?
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  765. lovetox i hope not, i didnt follow the discussion until the end :)
  766. lovetox for me this is fine, translate the buttons if you want
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  769. lovetox but translating the value seems wrong
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