-
Guus
jonas’, as per MattJ suggestion, I merged both -docker projects of the observatory into the original project. With that, I think we can drop the docker-specific projects, unless you object.
-
jonas’
wfm
-
jonas’
you need to take care to setup the docker hub thing though
-
Guus
ehh... I'll try 🙂
-
Guus
I've also invited xnyphs, btw.
-
Guus
maybe create a corresponding xmpp-observatory account on docker hub?
-
MattJ
Guus: thanks! How did you deal with the submodules?
- Ge0rG was asked about a windows client that supports XEP-0184 and was once again disappointed about us officially endorsing Pidgin
-
Guus
MattJ what submodules?
-
Guus
(I did not)
-
Link Mauve
Ge0rG, did Gajim not work?
-
Ge0rG
Link Mauve: I don't know
-
Link Mauve
Why did you recommend Pidgin over it then?
-
Ge0rG
Link Mauve: I'm speaking of the listing at https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html which I wanted to be a list of *actively maintained* clients.
-
Link Mauve
And out of all of the actively maintained clients, you picked Pidgin?
-
Ge0rG
but then somebody submitted Pidgin, and because we are neutral, we can not resist its addition, despite everybody on our side knowing how harmful it is.
-
Ge0rG
Link Mauve: no.
-
Link Mauve
Oh, now I understand.
-
Link Mauve
Sorry.
-
MattJ
Guus: no worries, I'll figure something out in the Dockerfile I think
-
Guus
@mattj, i just finished setting up docker hub builds for both projects
-
Guus
do you have an account there? I'd like to add you.
-
MattJ
Thanks!
-
MattJ
mwild1
-
Guus
added: https://cloud.docker.com/u/xmppobservatory
-
MattJ
Got it, thanks
-
Guus
I think that's about what I know what/how to do
-
Guus
I didn't remove the old -docker projects yet, but that can be done now, I think.
-
MattJ
Don't yet
-
Guus
maybe I'd be good if you verify first that I didn't make to many obvious mistakes.
-
MattJ
Pretty sure the new stuff will not build correctly yet
-
MattJ
It was using submodules for pulling in some dependencies
-
Guus
unsure if the migration thingy I used merged those
-
Guus
I didn't notice hg submodules (nor did I check for them)
-
Guus
I'm not seeing a .gitmodules, so it probably didn't migrate.
-
MattJ
I don't remember what they all are, but at least one of them we were going to drop, and probably any others should be too
-
MattJ
Some were hg repos, so it would have needed to migrate those
-
Guus
Can I leave this in your capable hands?
-
MattJ
Which wouldn't be ideal anyway, since they are separate projects I maintain in hg
-
MattJ
Sure
-
Guus
Thanks. Do we need submodules, or can we use a shared artifact somehow perhaps?
-
MattJ
If needed I'll just make the dockerfile clone the dependencies itself
-
Guus
for what its worth, that already seems to happen a lot
-
Guus
What's probably not ideal is that the dockerfile clones RUN hg clone https://bitbucket.org/mattj/xmppoke 🙂✎ -
Guus
What's probably not ideal is that the dockerfile clones https://bitbucket.org/mattj/xmppoke 🙂 ✏
-
Guus
(I blindly merged the projects, didn't update any references)
-
Ge0rG
Is the call for logo design published anywhere? I've had a logo designer asking me about redoing the yaxim logo some months ago, but I like my logo very much so I'd rather ask them to do something for the wider community
-
Guus
jonas’ should we move the xmppoke-queue project too?
-
Guus
Ge0rG I don't believe that there's an explicit call, no.
-
Guus
Ge0rG I suggest you coordinate with nyco, who had a designer of his own in mind.
-
Ge0rG
Will there be one?
-
Ge0rG
What would be the best non-ephemeral venue for that? issue on github/xmpp.org?
-
Guus
Board didn't discuss that, so I guess not? Is there a need for such an explicit call?
-
Guus
the mailing list, perhaps?
-
Ge0rG
Guus: standards is obviously not the right place, members is for members only; there is no public ML suitable for that.
-
Guus
You are more precise than I am in these things 🙂
-
ralphm
I don't think we need to send out such a call just yet
-
ralphm
I'm going to first wait that nyco comes back with
-
Ge0rG
ralphm: alright. I was just assuming that volunteers might have some time between the holidays
-
ralphm
If people want to volunteer, they can, I just didn't think we needed to put out a call for it.
-
ralphm
Also, I don't think we have minutes for this Board meeting yet. Someone volunteering to do those would be awesome.
-
Guus
MattJ I ran into those modules you referred to. I worked around them being gone in git by pulling them in through the docker file, as you suggested: https://github.com/xmpp-observatory/xmppoke/pull/1
-
Guus
when running things locally, I see that xmppoke is invoked when I start a test through the frontend, but it stops immediately.
-
erkanfiles
Test
-
Guus
a-ok.
-
erkanfiles
ralphm: Still in need for a minutes writer?
-
Guus
erkanfiles yes
-
Ge0rG
erkanfiles: 👍
-
erkanfiles
So I only have to scroll up in this MUC or where to find the content?
-
Ge0rG
erkanfiles: the official log is at http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2018-12-20#14:28:50 - in case you don't have full history in your client
-
erkanfiles
K
-
erkanfiles
Where may I submit my results?
-
Ge0rG
erkanfiles: they are typically sent to board@xmpp.org and members@xmpp.org (which are probably both members-only) and you can pastebin them in case you want a second opinion.
-
erkanfiles
So I couldnt join because of not being member, right?
-
daniel
stupid question. someone recenctly send me this <message><foo:bar>hi</foo:bar></message/>. is this valid xmpp/xml?
-
Link Mauve
daniel, if an xmlns:foo="something" has been defined on foo:bar or any of its ancestors..✎ -
Link Mauve
daniel, if an xmlns:foo="something" has been defined on foo:bar or any of its ancestors. ✏
-
daniel
what if it is not?
-
Link Mauve
Then it’s invalid XML.
-
daniel
because : is a reserved char that can not be used for element names even though xmpp doesn’t use that kind of namespace prefixes?
-
Link Mauve
: in an element name means that what is before : is a prefix, that must have been bound to a namespace, and what is after is a local name to this namespace.
-
jonas’
Link Mauve, only if you’re talikng XML 1.0 + Namespaces
-
jonas’
in vanilla XML 1.0, you can use : without namespaces
-
Link Mauve
jonas’, isn’t that what XMPP is using?
-
Link Mauve
jonas’, uh, really? :|
-
Link Mauve
I wasn’t aware that XML could be used without support for namespaces.
-
jonas’
yes, XMPP uses XML 1.0 + namespaces
-
jonas’
it can
-
jonas’
but everybody luckily forgot about that
-
daniel
jonas’, so is this or is this not legal in xmpp?
-
Link Mauve
Note: The Namespaces in XML Recommendation [XML Names] assigns a meaning to names containing colon characters. Therefore, authors should not use the colon in XML names except for namespace purposes, but XML processors must accept the colon as a name character.
-
jonas’
it is not legal if there isn’t a namespace declaration on the <message/>✎ -
jonas’
daniel, it is not legal if there isn’t a namespace declaration on the <message/> for the foo prefix ✏
-
Link Mauve
jonas’, or on the stream:stream, or on foo:bar.
-
jonas’
Link Mauve, not on the stream:stream
-
Link Mauve
Why?
-
jonas’
XMPP
-
jonas’
Namespaces declared in a stream header MUST apply only to that stream (e.g., the 'jabber:server:dialback' namespace used in Server Dialback [XEP-0220]). In particular, because XML stanzas intended for routing or delivery over streams with other entities will lose the namespace context declared in the header of the stream in which those stanzas originated, namespaces for extended content within such stanzas MUST NOT be declared in that stream header (see also Section 8.4).
-
jonas’
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6120#section-4.8.5
-
jonas’
but yes, it can be on the foo:bar itself, I missed that
-
Link Mauve
jonas’, ugh, that sucks.
-
jonas’
I was very sad when I learnt that because I intended to declare all the things on the stream header :)
-
Link Mauve
I didn’t know that.
-
daniel
mhhh ok
-
jonas’
daniel, in any case, your server sent you somewhat malformed XML
-
Link Mauve
jonas’, can you disable namespace support in most XML libraries?
-
jonas’
Link Mauve, most come with it disabled
-
daniel
i mean you are all confirming what i assumed was the case. but in any case it makes this https://github.com/siacs/Conversations/issues/3315 weird
-
jonas’
expat and libxml at least
-
jonas’
you have to enable it
-
daniel
and/or very annoying to debug
-
Link Mauve
jonas’, oO
-
Link Mauve
TIL.
-
pep.
> Ge0rG> Guus: standards is obviously not the right place, members is for members only; there is no public ML suitable for that. I would also like to have such a place tbh. I've been wanting it for some time.
-
jonas’
Link Mauve, in expat you have to set a flag IIRC
-
Link Mauve
I don’t remember having to do that from Python, but maybe.
-
jonas’
daniel, ejabberd bug
-
jonas’
Link Mauve, the high-level python stuff does it for you
-
daniel
jonas’, a known one?
-
jonas’
the xml.sax doesn’t
-
jonas’
daniel, not that I know, but I’m not surprised✎ -
daniel
i'd be rather surprised tbh
-
jonas’
daniel, not as far as I know, but I’m not surprised ✏
-
jonas’
I’m not
-
jonas’
the namespace support has been sketchy since ever
-
jonas’
in ejabberd
-
Link Mauve
daniel, “<{null}jabber:x:oob>” sounds like their serialiser did something clearly wrong.
-
Link Mauve
I remember a similar bug being present in Prosody 0.5.1, fixed in 0.5.2.
-
daniel
oh you mean that new compress thing?
-
Link Mauve
(What a blast from the past!)
-
jonas’
Link Mauve, not clearly, I wouldn’t dare to interpret the output of that XML parser logs
-
jonas’
it might be some clark notation gone wro... no wait
-
jonas’
that’s weird
-
jonas’
but s till
-
jonas’
without seeing the raw bytes, I wouldn’t blame the serialiser that much for now
-
Holger
jonas': Namespace handling has been rewritten a while ago, but of course there may still be (new) bugs.
-
daniel
yeah it's not easy to get raw bytes from my parser
-
daniel
sigh
-
jonas’
*although* the error message indeed sounds like a huge messup
-
Link Mauve
Maybe on the other end, it’s easier to get Ejabberd to dump what it’s going to send?
-
jonas’
it looks as if <jabber:x:oob/> was generated
-
Link Mauve
Yeah.
-
daniel
yeah that's why i was asking for <foo:bar/> initially
-
jonas’
which is wrong, and that ejabberd lets it through to you is also a bug
-
daniel
i don’t think that the {null} is on the wire
-
jonas’
Holger, mhm
-
jonas’
back then™ when I broke ejabberd’s namespace stuff it was still on that other bugtracker
-
Holger
Heh, there's probably no line remaining of the code you broke :-)
-
jonas’
that’s probably good
-
jonas’
I recall the breakage to be terrifying
-
jonas’
ah yes, it swallowed IQs https://support.process-one.net/browse/EJAB-1661
-
jonas’
good ol’ times
-
jonas’
this one was also fun: https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/issues/814#issuecomment-153015288
-
Link Mauve
jonas’, that last one is valid though.
-
Link Mauve
It should be parsed to the exact same thing by a namespace-aware parser.
-
jonas’
I am aware
-
jonas’
otherwise I wouldn’t have complained :)
-
pep.
Are you a parser?
-
jonas’
Are you?
-
pep.
I might be, but I'm not fully namespace-aware
-
Holger
jonas’: Hah, so it was your issue that triggered the initial rewrite I was referring to.
-
jonas’
the IQ one I didn’t open
-
jonas’
I just came across it
-
Holger
I meant the second one.
-
Ge0rG
the Simple Buttons discussion made me realize that we don't have Data Forms in the suite.
-
erkanfiles
ralphm: I could provide that current minute on wednesday. Is that in time or is it too late?
-
ralphm
We meet on Thursdays, so that'd be fine!
-
ralphm
Really happy about someone volunteering
- Zash digs up history of buttons.md
-
jonas’
Guus, I *think* you said the same thing I said in my email to. Where was I unclear?
-
jonas’
I tried my best to pick words which don’t make Board seem like the booman here, and which don’t put words in Boards collective unison mouth.
-
Guus
jonas’: I think you left one part of the reasoning out. Anyway, I wanted to stress that I don't believe you were trying to push people.
-
jonas’
ok
-
jonas’
I can live with that :)
-
jonas’
right, I only brought the second part up in a side note ("[…] and to the community for the extra noise and possible temporary confusion and misguidance due to the published compliance suites you had to endure.")
-
Guus
Ah right. I read that slightly differently. Oh well.
-
jonas’
overcommunicating is never bad
-
Guus
jonas’: I think I prepared for all changes needed to move over to the new observatory repo
-
jonas’
uh
-
jonas’
I’d like to postpone this until after the holidays to be honest
-
jonas’
we’re going to be on the rails tomorrow and there’s some preparations to be made
-
Zash
HOLIDAY SPRINT
-
Guus
Care to review the PRs?
-
Guus
Ah ok, fair enough 🙂
-
jonas’
aand it will hvae scrolled out of my inbox by that time, so pinging me about that in a week or so would be wise
-
Guus
👍
-
MattJ
Just noticed my emails... so Buttons is accepted?
-
MattJ
or are there still outstanding votes?
-
Zash
U want <button xmlns="urn:xmpp:tmp:buttons"> <onclick> <json xmlns="urn:xmpp:json:0">{"payload":"100MT-nuke","target":"earth"}</json> </onclick> <label xml:lang="en">Big Red Button</label> <label xml:lang="sv">Stor Röd Knapp</label> </button>
-
Zash
?
-
MattJ
No?
-
MattJ
Are you being sarcastic or why is this so hard? :)
-
MattJ
The whole point is that the buttons are shortcuts for pieces of text
-
MattJ
Which also makes the points about i18n rather dubious (as I wrote to standards@)
-
lovetox
yeah i agree the i18n argument is a bit overboard, i never saw bodys with different langs
-
lovetox
lets be honest, almost no one makes use of that lang feature
-
MattJ
Right. Last I checked was quite some time ago, and it was not handled very well in clients
-
MattJ
which allows many fun things :)
-
lovetox
i get its nice to have it defined with the base xmpp spec, so if there is a usecase someone does not have to invent his own stuff, but not every XEP will be able to fully be i18n compatible, and seeing that one of the most important xeps like dataforms is not useable with i18n, lets me think, can this even be done?
-
Zash
Is there a XEP on how to handle i18n?
-
Link Mauve
lovetox, in most cases dataforms are actually usable with i18n, because you transmit the xml:lang in every stanza you send the responder is able to setup the translation domain correctly.
-
Link Mauve
For buttons it can’t be done that way, because the main point of using it is through a MUC.
-
Link Mauve
So there is no sender/responder.
-
Zash
The main point?
-
Zash
You still get presence from everyone, so you can do ... something
-
Link Mauve
Zash, didn’t you define it so it would work in a MUC?
-
Link Mauve
Zash, well, not really, say half of the people here advertise an @xml:lang of en, then some fr, some de, some ru, some sv, etc.
-
lovetox
also a MUC has in most cases one language
-
lovetox
there is no need for translation
-
Zash
Link Mauve: I tried to make it like it works elsewhere in XMPP wrt i18n, which allows multiple <body xml:lang=*> and such.
-
Link Mauve
lovetox, yet in many cases it allows more than one.
-
Link Mauve
Zash, yeah, that’s fine.
-
lovetox
also from where should the sender have the translation?
-
lovetox
yeah for Yes and No, its likely he has it
-
Zash
Is that in scope for a protocol?
-
lovetox
but the moment you let the user choose the labels himself, there is no chance he has a translation ready
-
Zash
I imagined this would be from bots mostly
-
Zash
Eg Memberbot
-
lovetox
point is, you can make it super i18n compatible, in reality for the MUC vote case, and thats probably what this is beeing used for, there will be no translations
-
Zash
Allowing for translations doesn't prevent use when there are none
-
lovetox
yeah and Memberbot wants to ask a new question, and then you make a git repo and ask people to translate your memberbot questions into 10 languages or what?
-
Link Mauve
lovetox, yeah, that’s how it’s done in most software.
-
Link Mauve
You have a list of supported languages, translators do the translation work, you often pull them back in your software, and then users can use it in any language they want.
-
lovetox
thats the point, its not part of the software
-
lovetox
the bot allows to ask all possible questions at any point in time
-
lovetox
it would be better to use google translate api
-
Link Mauve
Haha.
-
Link Mauve
That’s just one of your usecases, you don’t need to limit the protocol for other usecases.
-
lovetox
i dont want to limit it, but it should also not stand in the way
-
Link Mauve
Is it currently standing in the way, in the current proposal?
-
lovetox
i hope not, i didnt follow the discussion until the end :)
-
lovetox
for me this is fine, translate the buttons if you want
-
lovetox
but translating the value seems wrong