XSF Discussion - 2018-12-22

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  88. ta > it would be better to use google translate api As someone struggling with a supposedly spanish guy, asking weird questions in a german "Linux Q&A"-MUC in horrible tanslated english i fear any automation in this direction.
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  131. flow I'd also challenge the statement that data forms do not allow for i18n
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  168. lovetox yeah flow, the whole xep mentions lang not once except as examples in toplevel stanzas (iq, message etc)
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  184. flow but that does not imply that data forms have an i18n issue. Ad-hoc commands are a good example
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  189. lovetox of course it implies that, if implementors have to do their own interpretation how i18n *could* maybe work, then its a very real issue for a standard
  190. Zash flow: Label in an attribute isn't problematic?
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  193. lovetox and i dont get your reference to ad-hoc commands, in the xep there is a own section that just deals with localization
  194. flow Zash, I'm sorry, but I don't understand, could you rephrase your question?
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  196. Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0004.html#protocol Description goes into the `label` attribute, so it can't work like <body> with multiple xml:lang.
  197. flow lovetox, that is why I believe that data forms are well designed without i18n/xml:lang: You deal with the localization on the data-form using XEP
  198. lovetox you could duplicate the whole form ^^
  199. lovetox so you are saying we should not use dataforms if they are not part of another xep?
  200. lovetox i guess thats one way to solve it
  201. flow Zash, right a <{jabber:x:data}x/> element can only have exactly one xml:lang
  202. flow lovetox, I guess it possibly could come down to a philosopical question, but do we ever use data forms without another XEP?
  203. Zash flow: Mhm. If you only ever send that after knowing the preferred target language then it's fine I guess.
  204. lovetox hm i recently wrote a plugin that just does that, simple usecase, bot sends out a form, user fills it out and submits, bot acts on it
  205. flow Zash, aggreed, the question is how to handle situations where you don't know the xml:lang of the recipient *and* perform delayed communication (i.e., you can't probe xml:lang of the recipient)
  206. lovetox just out of interest how do i prope the xml lang of a contact?
  207. Zash Send `<message><body xml:lang="en">Hello</body><body xml:lang="fr">Bonjour</body><body xml:lang="sv">Hej</body> etc.. </message>` and wait for a reply? :)
  208. lovetox wow .. :D
  209. lovetox hence my idea to put it into the disco info
  210. flow then you still have the xml:lang of the stanza, or, if you don't know the recipients lang, you would probably define a wrapping extension element that maps a data form for every lang (not ideal but still)
  211. flow lovetox, I would imagine that xml:lang is a property of the account, and not the device
  212. flow so put it into PEP :)
  213. pep. Zash, what if the other side replies `<message><body xml:lang="en">Hello</body><body xml:lang="fr">Bonjour</body><body xml:lang="sv">Hej</body> etc.. </message>`
  214. flow but then again, it appears i18n in IM systems is basically non-existend and people are fine with it
  215. flow cause you usually know the language you are going to use with your contact
  216. lovetox yes i agree, it feels a bit verengineered
  217. lovetox yes i agree, it feels a bit overengineered
  218. flow and most bots are happy with just using english, or esperanto
  219. Zash flow: Bots and XMPP UIs like MUC room config and such tho?
  220. flow lovetox, I feel like the term overengineered is overused, I'd rather say that it is not a top prority, having facilities for i18n is still nice
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  222. flow Zash, well for most XMPP UIs you know the xml:lang of the initiating entity I'd assume, so it is nice to have i18n here
  223. Zash True
  224. lovetox yeah its nice on muc config forms :)
  225. lovetox also IBR maybe
  226. lovetox everything that interacts with the server
  227. flow the problem is really only if you want to send a dataform to someone who did not ask for it
  228. Zash Where you have an initiating entity
  229. Zash flow: Have you ever wanted to?
  230. lovetox also you dont really use i18n on the form there, the server just sends out the form in the correct language
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  232. flow I can't remember that I ever found myself in the situation, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't be beneficial to be prepared for it
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  234. lovetox Zash, your issue tracker could send you a new ticket was created and you could act on it from inside xmpp
  235. lovetox i find that a nice usecase
  236. flow But here the i18n issue could be solved by putting xml:lang into PEP
  237. Zash Just Do It!
  238. flow I'm going to make another cup of tea, that is what I'm just doing right now
  239. Zash As long as it supports multiple languages and you've studied prior art like Accept-Lang and whatever the language field in vcard was.
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  243. flow sure, that is what I also had in mind
  244. flow but then again, not a top priority (for me) right now. I gotta find out how to UEFI boot from a soft-raid1 ESP
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  275. pep. > Flow> the problem is really only if you want to send a dataform to someone who did not ask for it > Zash> flow: Have you ever wanted to? Wouldn't it be the case for polls with dataforms
  276. pep. (If that existed, but it's among the discussed topics right, /me not entirely following)
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  282. lovetox yes you could facilitate a vote with it, even voting for multiple things in one go
  283. lovetox but its deemed to complicated, mostly because most clients dont implement a generic form viewer which you would need for it
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  285. flow pep., well if you consider the memberbot for example, then there is an initial message to start the poll
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  288. pep. What about non-bots? You're assuming you've got the lang from previous discussions as well?
  289. flow pep., I'm not sure which scenario you are sketching
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  291. pep. Somebody wants to submit a poll in a MUCs. Somebody that is not a bot. I definitely know MUCs where not everybody speaks the same language
  292. pep. I could send multiple forms, but then I might want a way to reconcile
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  295. flow I'm not sure if this is how I would implement it. A, possibly ad-hoc based, voting service appears to be a better approach. But if you want to send a poll to a MUC with probably mulit-lang participants, then you need to submit the poll multiple times in every language anyways
  296. pep. Would be good of other users could chime in and translate it, like sending a new form with a different xml:lang with the same stanzaid or sth, maybe. I have no idea how horrible this is protocol design wise
  297. moparisthebest And how do you know they are translating your form instead of insulting everyone
  298. pep. You don't, but that's probably not something I want to worry about, they can already do that anyway
  299. pep. Or well you do, they're still sending messages in the same room
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  439. Neustradamus https://github.com/horazont/xmppoke-queue is planned to move to https://github.com/xmpp-observatory/ like others?
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  494. rion Can anyone explain me what is ni:///sha3-256;wqfDv8OGw7jCvx7Dl2ZRw4FHVsKgYcOWYsO14oKsw79Nw6Q7ScO64oCaw5gKS-KCrMO4Q0o in SIMS?
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