XSF Discussion - 2018-12-22

jjrh has left 00:01:50
genofire has joined 00:02:59
sezuan has left 00:03:33
jjrh has left 00:09:56
Zash has left 00:16:06
jjrh has left 00:18:46
lovetox has left 00:20:09
lskdjf has joined 00:21:14
jjrh has left 00:22:00
genofire has left 00:24:05
lskdjf has left 00:28:33
lskdjf has joined 00:28:34
Zash has left 00:29:47
jjrh has left 00:31:28
UsL has left 00:32:42
UsL has joined 00:32:43
l has left 00:47:27
Neustradamus has joined 00:56:05
lnj has left 01:15:46
lskdjf has joined 01:16:28
blabla has joined 01:16:39
l has joined 01:17:01
frainz has left 01:18:49
jjrh has left 01:22:57
jjrh has left 01:28:43
jjrh has left 01:30:05
frainz has left 01:30:06
jjrh has left 01:32:20
frainz has left 01:34:11
frainz has left 01:38:09
jjrh has left 01:46:31
404.city has left 01:48:58
404.city has joined 01:49:40
404.city has left 01:49:47
jjrh has left 01:58:35
UsL has left 02:00:30
UsL has joined 02:00:32
marc has joined 02:03:03
jjrh has left 02:11:36
Andrew Nenakhov has left 02:15:58
Andrew Nenakhov has joined 02:16:14
frainz has left 02:20:33
jjrh has left 02:21:20
moparisthebest has joined 02:30:48
marc has left 02:31:59
marc has joined 02:32:11
moparisthebest has joined 02:34:24
ThibG has left 02:35:41
efrit has left 02:36:12
jjrh has left 02:39:07
krauq has joined 02:41:38
thorsten has left 02:41:58
jjrh has left 02:47:56
thorsten has joined 02:51:37
dos has left 02:54:19
marc has left 02:58:02
frainz has left 02:59:20
jjrh has left 03:08:00
ThibG has joined 03:21:20
krauq has joined 03:25:04
jjrh has left 03:29:26
Yagiza has joined 03:40:43
jjrh has left 04:17:15
jjrh has left 04:17:55
l has joined 04:26:19
Yagiza has left 04:27:05
jjrh has left 04:40:00
lskdjf has joined 04:51:13
jjrh has left 04:51:50
jjrh has left 05:02:58
waqas has left 05:04:06
jjrh has left 05:11:14
mimi89999 has left 05:19:04
jjrh has left 05:22:12
mimi89999 has left 05:31:35
thorsten has left 05:59:13
moparisthebest has joined 06:02:13
chunk has joined 06:03:08
jjrh has left 06:03:30
oli has joined 06:07:08
moparisthebest has left 06:16:04
moparisthebest has joined 06:16:39
marc_ has joined 06:18:16
jjrh has left 06:28:09
lorddavidiii has left 06:37:11
thorsten has joined 06:45:01
jjrh has left 06:46:38
ta 06:47:38
> it would be better to use google translate api As someone struggling with a supposedly spanish guy, asking weird questions in a german "Linux Q&A"-MUC in horrible tanslated english i fear any automation in this direction.
erkanfiles has joined 06:52:29
Nekit has joined 07:06:15
marc_ has left 07:10:59
chunk has left 07:11:07
lorddavidiii has joined 07:14:10
chunk has left 07:24:15
chunk has left 07:25:39
igoose has left 07:26:01
chunk has left 07:26:52
chunk has left 07:27:23
chunk has joined 07:27:31
igoose has joined 07:27:40
marc_ has joined 07:34:43
l has left 07:35:21
frainz has left 07:40:33
mrdoctorwho has left 07:40:51
l has left 07:51:07
oli has joined 07:54:43
marc_ has left 07:57:00
frainz has left 08:01:24
lorddavidiii has left 08:02:24
jjrh has left 08:10:35
ta has joined 08:11:59
Yagiza has joined 08:16:32
rion has left 08:22:37
goffi has joined 08:23:43
l has left 08:26:33
waqas has joined 08:26:53
Tobias has joined 08:28:12
marc_ has joined 08:30:35
vaulor has joined 08:33:53
Guus has left 08:39:54
lumi has joined 08:40:13
lnj has joined 08:40:41
l has joined 08:52:12
mrdoctorwho has joined 09:14:45
marc_ has left 09:17:04
dos has left 09:21:46
dos has left 09:22:26
chunk has left 09:28:20
lorddavidiii has joined 09:33:04
marc_ has joined 09:43:27
flow 09:45:31
I'd also challenge the statement that data forms do not allow for i18n
lorddavidiii has left 10:00:44
lorddavidiii has joined 10:01:21
frainz has left 10:05:53
frainz has joined 10:06:04
frainz has left 10:09:22
frainz has joined 10:09:34
moparisthebest has joined 10:22:07
moparisthebest has joined 10:22:44
chunk has joined 10:23:14
l has left 10:26:15
ThibG has joined 10:28:10
ThibG has joined 10:28:15
oli has joined 10:30:26
oli has left 10:39:43
oli has joined 10:39:46
waqas has left 10:44:02
waqas has joined 10:44:11
waqas has left 10:44:19
krauq has joined 10:47:32
Tobias has left 10:54:22
krauq has joined 10:58:29
erkanfiles has joined 11:00:33
Tobias has joined 11:01:28
l has joined 11:02:16
l has joined 11:02:25
oli has joined 11:03:07
Seve has joined 11:04:07
erkanfiles has joined 11:06:43
Tobias has joined 11:06:50
Tobias has joined 11:06:52
ThibG has left 11:09:06
ThibG has joined 11:09:08
lovetox has joined 11:15:41
Nekit has left 11:15:54
Nekit has joined 11:16:18
chunk has left 11:20:31
lovetox 11:20:40
yeah flow, the whole xep mentions lang not once except as examples in toplevel stanzas (iq, message etc)
sezuan has left 11:21:14
Ge0rG has joined 11:23:05
moparisthebest has joined 11:27:41
moparisthebest has joined 11:28:32
Andrew Nenakhov has left 11:29:27
Andrew Nenakhov has joined 11:29:34
frainz has left 11:29:47
frainz has joined 11:30:10
blabla has left 11:31:49
blabla has joined 11:32:25
rion has left 11:33:30
rion has left 11:35:21
frainz has left 11:39:51
frainz has joined 11:40:06
genofire has left 11:43:35
flow 11:46:44
but that does not imply that data forms have an i18n issue. Ad-hoc commands are a good example
oli has joined 11:47:21
genofire has left 11:48:22
genofire has left 11:48:43
genofire has joined 11:49:02
lovetox 11:50:26
of course it implies that, if implementors have to do their own interpretation how i18n *could* maybe work, then its a very real issue for a standard
Zash 11:52:25
flow: Label in an attribute isn't problematic?
ThibG has joined 11:52:49
ThibG has joined 11:52:51
lovetox 11:53:32
and i dont get your reference to ad-hoc commands, in the xep there is a own section that just deals with localization
flow 11:55:07
Zash, I'm sorry, but I don't understand, could you rephrase your question?
lskdjf has joined 11:56:14
Zash 11:56:20
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0004.html#protocol Description goes into the `label` attribute, so it can't work like <body> with multiple xml:lang.
flow 11:56:31
lovetox, that is why I believe that data forms are well designed without i18n/xml:lang: You deal with the localization on the data-form using XEP
lovetox 11:56:41
you could duplicate the whole form ^^
lovetox 11:57:40
so you are saying we should not use dataforms if they are not part of another xep?
lovetox 11:58:11
i guess thats one way to solve it
flow 11:58:13
Zash, right a <{jabber:x:data}x/> element can only have exactly one xml:lang
flow 11:58:49
lovetox, I guess it possibly could come down to a philosopical question, but do we ever use data forms without another XEP?
Zash 11:59:40
flow: Mhm. If you only ever send that after knowing the preferred target language then it's fine I guess.
lovetox 11:59:54
hm i recently wrote a plugin that just does that, simple usecase, bot sends out a form, user fills it out and submits, bot acts on it
flow 12:00:39
Zash, aggreed, the question is how to handle situations where you don't know the xml:lang of the recipient *and* perform delayed communication (i.e., you can't probe xml:lang of the recipient)
lovetox 12:02:00
just out of interest how do i prope the xml lang of a contact?
Zash 12:02:04
Send `<message><body xml:lang="en">Hello</body><body xml:lang="fr">Bonjour</body><body xml:lang="sv">Hej</body> etc.. </message>` and wait for a reply? :)
lovetox 12:02:21
wow .. :D
lovetox 12:02:30
hence my idea to put it into the disco info
flow 12:02:42
then you still have the xml:lang of the stanza, or, if you don't know the recipients lang, you would probably define a wrapping extension element that maps a data form for every lang (not ideal but still)
flow 12:03:01
lovetox, I would imagine that xml:lang is a property of the account, and not the device
flow 12:03:09
so put it into PEP :)
pep. 12:03:22
Zash, what if the other side replies `<message><body xml:lang="en">Hello</body><body xml:lang="fr">Bonjour</body><body xml:lang="sv">Hej</body> etc.. </message>`
flow 12:03:34
but then again, it appears i18n in IM systems is basically non-existend and people are fine with it
flow 12:03:56
cause you usually know the language you are going to use with your contact
lovetox 12:04:15
~~yes i agree, it feels a bit verengineered~~ ✎
lovetox 12:04:23
yes i agree, it feels a bit overengineered ✏
flow 12:04:23
and most bots are happy with just using english, or esperanto
Zash 12:04:49
flow: Bots and XMPP UIs like MUC room config and such tho?
flow 12:05:05
lovetox, I feel like the term overengineered is overused, I'd rather say that it is not a top prority, having facilities for i18n is still nice
jjrh has left 12:05:22
flow 12:05:57
Zash, well for most XMPP UIs you know the xml:lang of the initiating entity I'd assume, so it is nice to have i18n here
Zash 12:06:09
True
lovetox 12:06:13
yeah its nice on muc config forms :)
lovetox 12:06:17
also IBR maybe
lovetox 12:06:27
everything that interacts with the server
flow 12:06:29
the problem is really only if you want to send a dataform to someone who did not ask for it
Zash 12:06:32
Where you have an initiating entity
Zash 12:06:39
flow: Have you ever wanted to?
lovetox 12:06:53
also you dont really use i18n on the form there, the server just sends out the form in the correct language
oli has left 12:07:23
flow 12:07:24
I can't remember that I ever found myself in the situation, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't be beneficial to be prepared for it
oli has joined 12:07:25
lovetox 12:07:30
Zash, your issue tracker could send you a new ticket was created and you could act on it from inside xmpp
lovetox 12:07:37
i find that a nice usecase
flow 12:07:46
But here the i18n issue could be solved by putting xml:lang into PEP
Zash 12:08:33
Just Do It!
flow 12:08:58
I'm going to make another cup of tea, that is what I'm just doing right now
Zash 12:09:05
As long as it supports multiple languages and you've studied prior art like Accept-Lang and whatever the language field in vcard was.
oli has joined 12:09:14
oli has left 12:10:22
oli has joined 12:10:24
flow 12:10:59
sure, that is what I also had in mind
flow 12:11:27
but then again, not a top priority (for me) right now. I gotta find out how to UEFI boot from a soft-raid1 ESP
chunk has left 12:14:24
oli has left 12:16:06
oli has joined 12:16:11
oli has left 12:18:17
oli has joined 12:18:20
oli has left 12:19:04
oli has joined 12:19:09
chunk has joined 12:24:15
oli has left 12:27:46
404.city has joined 12:32:37
rion has left 12:33:13
ThibG has joined 12:35:44
thorsten has left 12:37:09
thorsten has joined 12:41:07
nyco has left 12:44:41
nyco has joined 12:44:55
Yagiza has left 12:51:09
Maranda has joined 12:55:30
Maranda has joined 12:55:31
ThibG has joined 12:57:24
efrit has joined 12:58:03
Zash has left 12:58:29
genofire has left 13:01:04
andrey.g has left 13:12:53
krauq has left 13:18:34
ThibG has joined 13:25:22
MattJ has joined 13:26:45
marc has joined 13:27:08
efrit has left 13:32:01
andrey.g has joined 13:32:28
pep. 13:36:47
> Flow> the problem is really only if you want to send a dataform to someone who did not ask for it > Zash> flow: Have you ever wanted to? Wouldn't it be the case for polls with dataforms
pep. 13:37:53
(If that existed, but it's among the discussed topics right, /me not entirely following)
ThibG has joined 13:41:00
krauq has joined 13:44:28
404.city has left 13:46:36
404.city has joined 13:50:02
APach has left 13:56:51
lovetox 14:04:27
yes you could facilitate a vote with it, even voting for multiple things in one go
lovetox 14:04:46
but its deemed to complicated, mostly because most clients dont implement a generic form viewer which you would need for it
ThibG has joined 14:07:36
flow 14:08:40
pep., well if you consider the memberbot for example, then there is an initial message to start the poll
ta has left 14:11:10
Alex has joined 14:12:07
pep. 14:12:34
What about non-bots? You're assuming you've got the lang from previous discussions as well?
flow 14:23:02
pep., I'm not sure which scenario you are sketching
Alex has left 14:23:20
pep. 14:24:17
Somebody wants to submit a poll in a MUCs. Somebody that is not a bot. I definitely know MUCs where not everybody speaks the same language
pep. 14:28:26
I could send multiple forms, but then I might want a way to reconcile
marc_ has left 14:29:46
ThibG has joined 14:31:08
flow 14:39:40
I'm not sure if this is how I would implement it. A, possibly ad-hoc based, voting service appears to be a better approach. But if you want to send a poll to a MUC with probably mulit-lang participants, then you need to submit the poll multiple times in every language anyways
pep. 14:43:06
Would be good of other users could chime in and translate it, like sending a new form with a different xml:lang with the same stanzaid or sth, maybe. I have no idea how horrible this is protocol design wise
moparisthebest 14:44:35
And how do you know they are translating your form instead of insulting everyone
pep. 14:45:44
You don't, but that's probably not something I want to worry about, they can already do that anyway
pep. 14:46:06
Or well you do, they're still sending messages in the same room
moparisthebest has left 14:52:56
moparisthebest has joined 14:53:24
APach has joined 14:54:03
oli has joined 14:54:15
l has joined 14:56:00
rion has left 14:59:46
lskdjf has joined 15:01:08
lskdjf has joined 15:01:18
l has joined 15:01:35
jjrh has left 15:07:47
alacer has joined 15:10:23
marc_ has joined 15:13:37
lskdjf has joined 15:19:38
lskdjf has joined 15:22:16
marc has left 15:27:27
marc has joined 15:27:35
pep. has joined 15:28:39
marc has left 15:29:25
marc has joined 15:29:26
oli has left 15:30:15
oli has joined 15:30:17
oli has left 15:30:44
oli has joined 15:31:20
oli has left 15:31:31
oli has joined 15:31:51
oli has left 15:34:19
oli has joined 15:34:23
vanitasvitae has left 15:37:16
krauq has joined 15:39:52
chunk has joined 15:42:28
blabla has left 15:47:23
blabla has joined 15:47:28
oli has left 15:48:53
oli has joined 15:48:57
oli has left 15:51:59
oli has joined 15:52:02
Andrew Nenakhov has left 15:56:03
Andrew Nenakhov has joined 15:56:06
frainz has left 15:57:30
marc has left 15:57:55
marc has joined 15:58:06
Yagiza has joined 15:58:58
marc has left 16:02:26
marc has joined 16:02:26
mimi89999 has left 16:03:12
lorddavidiii has left 16:08:46
krauq has joined 16:09:23
oli has joined 16:10:19
oli has left 16:17:18
oli has joined 16:17:18
labdsf has left 16:21:37
marc has left 16:23:25
marc has joined 16:23:35
marc has left 16:25:54
marc has joined 16:25:55
labdsf has joined 16:27:19
marc has left 16:30:55
marc has joined 16:30:55
blabla has left 16:33:24
blabla has joined 16:33:32
marc has left 16:40:54
marc has joined 16:40:55
frainz has left 16:42:38
alacer has left 16:46:01
frainz has left 16:47:06
marc has left 16:48:25
marc has joined 16:48:26
waqas has joined 16:53:01
waqas has left 16:53:14
waqas has joined 16:54:53
krauq has joined 16:55:30
neshtaxmpp has left 17:00:20
neshtaxmpp has left 17:00:20
krauq has joined 17:01:05
marc has left 17:02:25
marc has joined 17:02:25
vaulor has left 17:10:48
tux has joined 17:11:27
vaulor has joined 17:12:09
mimi89999 has left 17:12:38
marc has left 17:12:54
marc has joined 17:12:55
marc has left 17:13:54
marc has joined 17:13:55
marc has left 17:16:24
marc has joined 17:16:25
marc has left 17:17:55
marc has joined 17:17:56
marc has left 17:21:01
marc has joined 17:21:02
erkanfiles has left 17:23:59
frainz has joined 17:24:00
frainz has joined 17:24:00
Yagiza has left 17:25:01
winfried has left 17:25:44
erkanfiles has joined 17:25:55
genofire has left 17:34:09
genofire has joined 17:34:21
winfried has joined 17:36:08
neshtaxmpp has joined 17:40:41
jjrh has left 17:46:32
!xsf_Martin has joined 17:51:44
jjrh has left 17:53:30
krauq has joined 17:56:18
frainz has joined 17:56:40
neshtaxmpp has left 18:01:38
neshtaxmpp has left 18:01:38
oli has joined 18:01:39
genofire has left 18:05:06
krauq has joined 18:05:10
moparisthebest has joined 18:05:19
lnj has left 18:08:27
lnj has joined 18:08:30
Yagiza has joined 18:09:42
oli has joined 18:13:18
frainz has left 18:15:53
neshtaxmpp has joined 18:17:05
jjrh has left 18:25:03
lorddavidiii has left 18:29:47
moparisthebest has left 18:35:41
labdsf has left 18:36:40
labdsf has joined 18:36:43
jjrh has left 18:43:37
ThibG has joined 18:48:06
oli has left 18:49:43
oli has joined 18:49:52
oli has left 18:58:46
ThibG has joined 18:58:48
oli has joined 19:01:04
chunk has joined 19:04:18
moparisthebest has joined 19:05:32
Yagiza has left 19:07:56
jjrh has left 19:09:55
vaulor has left 19:10:40
vaulor has joined 19:10:47
oli has left 19:20:55
oli has joined 19:20:59
oli has left 19:21:15
oli has joined 19:21:21
Neustradamus 19:22:46
https://github.com/horazont/xmppoke-queue is planned to move to https://github.com/xmpp-observatory/ like others?
igoose has joined 19:28:48
igoose has joined 19:28:51
Wiktor has left 19:32:43
Wiktor has left 19:34:29
Zash has left 19:34:34
moparisthebest has joined 19:35:43
valo has joined 19:42:07
valo has joined 19:42:32
labdsf has left 19:51:46
oli has left 19:59:44
oli has joined 19:59:45
labdsf has joined 20:02:40
Link Mauve has left 20:02:47
Link Mauve has joined 20:06:34
moparisthebest has joined 20:07:50
oli has left 20:08:58
oli has joined 20:09:08
lskdjf has left 20:13:51
marc_ has left 20:15:39
marc has left 20:18:26
marc has joined 20:18:27
jjrh has left 20:18:51
marc has left 20:20:55
marc has joined 20:20:55
jjrh has left 20:23:11
mrdoctorwho has left 20:23:37
mrdoctorwho has joined 20:23:42
jjrh has left 20:25:06
jjrh has left 20:30:50
jjrh has left 20:32:35
ThibG has joined 20:37:37
moparisthebest has joined 20:39:52
marc has left 20:42:55
marc has joined 20:42:57
jjrh has left 20:45:39
jjrh has left 20:45:55
Wiktor has left 20:46:55
ThibG has joined 20:47:23
Wiktor has left 20:47:34
marc has left 20:48:55
marc has joined 20:48:56
jjrh has left 20:50:57
jjrh has left 20:55:40
lskdjf has joined 20:59:35
jjrh has left 21:01:38
jjrh has left 21:03:15
chunk has joined 21:05:04
marc has left 21:06:26
marc has joined 21:06:27
moparisthebest has joined 21:08:20
jjrh has left 21:09:26
moparisthebest has left 21:11:59
mimi89999 has left 21:14:21
chunk has joined 21:14:35
rion 21:19:01
Can anyone explain me what is ni:///sha3-256;wqfDv8OGw7jCvx7Dl2ZRw4FHVsKgYcOWYsO14oKsw79Nw6Q7ScO64oCaw5gKS-KCrMO4Q0o in SIMS?
chunk has left 21:19:45
rion 21:20:22
ah found.
marc has left 21:20:24
jjrh has left 21:26:33
ta has left 21:32:41
jjrh has left 21:32:49
lskdjf has joined 21:33:20
oli has left 21:36:57
oli has joined 21:37:07
Andrew Nenakhov has joined 21:37:25
ta has left 21:47:32
ta has joined 21:47:33
lorddavidiii has left 21:54:54
jjrh has left 21:55:10
moparisthebest has left 21:57:51
erkanfiles has joined 21:58:04
vaulor has left 21:58:13
vaulor has joined 21:58:16
oli has left 21:59:19
oli has joined 21:59:31
frainz has left 22:00:32
frainz has joined 22:00:35
chunk has left 22:00:39
tux has joined 22:03:19
thorsten has left 22:03:52
thorsten has left 22:06:37
jjrh has left 22:06:55
jjrh has left 22:07:28
jjrh has left 22:09:42
nyco has left 22:12:48
chunk has joined 22:13:19
rion has left 22:17:42
nyco has joined 22:31:48
Holger has left 22:33:17
rion has left 22:37:42
vaulor has left 22:40:02
vaulor has joined 22:40:05
efrit has joined 22:46:48
l has joined 22:47:26
sezuan has left 22:50:16
UsL has left 22:54:28
UsL has joined 22:54:30
Andrew Nenakhov has left 22:56:09
Andrew Nenakhov has joined 22:56:21
oli has left 23:04:34
oli has joined 23:04:43
sezuan has left 23:05:01
thorsten has left 23:10:50
Holger has left 23:13:17
thorsten has left 23:17:39
404.city has left 23:36:13
oli has joined 23:37:33
MattJ has joined 23:39:10
marc has joined 23:41:37
oli has joined 23:42:04
Tobias has joined 23:43:07
jjrh has left 23:49:12
Nekit has joined 23:49:13
APach has left 23:59:26