XSF Discussion - 2019-01-02

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  210. erkanfiles ralphm: I just finished the minutes for 2018-12-20... Could you check this before I submit? This is my first try...
  211. erkanfiles Or anybody else?
  212. Ge0rG erkanfiles: I can review as well if you wish. You need somebody to forward them to the lists anyway.
  213. Ge0rG (I'm not on board, but on members)
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  217. Ge0rG > This server could not prove that it is logs.xmpp.org; its security certificate is from xmpp.org *sigh*
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  352. pep. https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Main_Page somebody added "Quickstart for developers" on the main page, but it points nowhere. There's also "Modern Login Procedure" that points nowhere. Even if that can be a good idea I vote to remove them while they're empty.
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  363. Syndace We had a discussion about OMEMO key cross-signing and without giving any further context it seems like revocation is the biggest problem which needs some smart ideas. If we do it the GPG-way we need some sort of revocation-cert. The problem is where to upload the revocation cert to, because a malicious admin could block uploading those or remove them from PEP/whatever.
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  374. Wiktor Syndace, why is cross signing intermixed with revocations? As far as I understand cross signing is for extending trust to new keys. If the device is not used for some time it's "revoked" automatically in current design already. That'd cover common scenarios like device migration.
  375. Syndace What do you mean by "current design"?
  376. Syndace Revocation is for when you loose a device or you know the keys have been compromised.
  377. Wiktor I mean by what Conversations do hehe, if you lose a device then after some time the client will stop encrypting for that decide
  378. Wiktor Device*
  379. Syndace Okay, that does not use cross-signing though ^^
  380. Wiktor Yes but it's already working for "revocations" so no need to invent anything new here
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  382. Wiktor Just keep the same rules for cross signed devices, no need for extra revocations
  383. Syndace I'm sorry but those are two completely different things. One is publishing cryptographic signatures to tell others that you trust a certain key and the other is some client-side timeout logic that is not specified or cryptographically backed at all
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  385. Wiktor I'd keep it lightweight, like in Matrix, the cross signing signature should be created by already trusted device and add trust only once, then the trusted device should be treated like any other.
  386. Wiktor If not you risk reimplemening OpenPGP and that's a lot of stuff.
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  391. Syndace Yes that's the goal. The thing is that revocation cannot be ignored really. You need a mechanism to tell people that a key is not trustworthy any more. Otherwise an attacker could use compromised keys to cross-sign as many malicious devices as he likes to.
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  393. Wiktor Yep, but distributing revocations is a problem. That's why OpenPGP has keyservers to make it hard to remove revocations.
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  396. Wiktor Actually I had an idea how to use OpenPGP (on Android through OpenKeychain) to distribute trusted devices set. But that's including OpenPGP in the solution...
  397. pep. Wiktor, if you implement a way to say "I trust this device" to others, you will also need a way to say "I don't trust this device anymore", I don't think there's any need for arguing that one is not needed
  398. pep. And indeed that can be easily blocked by the server
  399. Wiktor And all that has already been solved by OpenPGP, I just warn that there is a risk of reimplemening square wheel here
  400. pep. That point is clear. That's not what I was replying to
  401. pep. You talked about Matrix, do you have any insight on how they handle this?
  402. Wiktor OpenPGP also has signature expiry, you can use that to automatically expire signatures and require re signing if the device is used
  403. Wiktor Nope, I'm not involved in Matrix that much, the blog post I read only mentioned cross signing by already trusted devices
  404. pep. Right, I read that one as well
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  411. uhoreg The (work-in-progress) proposal for cross-signing in Matrix is at https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/pull/1756, which uses a master key for signing device keys, rather than having devices sign each other and trying to navigate an arbitrary trust graph. And rather than revocations, we're just nuking the master key and replacing it with a new one.
  412. uhoreg It does depend on the server being somewhat trustworthy, but I don't think there's much you can do about it.
  413. Syndace Trusting the server is not acceptable for OMEMO I'd say.
  414. uhoreg If you can figure out a way to do it without having to trust the server to distribute things properly, I'd be very interested in seeing it. It would be very desirable to have that property, but I haven't been able to figure it out yet.
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  416. pep. Yeah I'm also doubtful, even if that's also a property I would like, in the context of e2ee
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  423. lovetox also omemo is relying on the server already
  424. pep. Yes it is. A server can just refuse publishing keys
  425. lovetox if you remove a device from your devicelist, to broadcast to others that its not in use anymore
  426. lovetox then this could be just not broadcasted, and other contacts will never know that you dont use the device anymore
  427. Syndace It is relying on the server but the only thing the server can do is block OMEMO overall or attempt to MITM.
  428. lovetox no as i just described
  429. Syndace Or that, righr
  430. lovetox it can block "revocation" of devices
  431. jonas’ the only use of which would be to attempt MITM, right?
  432. lovetox you cant MITM omemo
  433. lovetox its simply not possible as of to date
  434. Syndace well if the admin got hands on one of your devices it would make sense for him to block the unpublishing
  435. lovetox but you can steal a device
  436. Syndace why is it not
  437. lovetox and then block that this device is revoked
  438. lovetox but thats not MITM
  439. pep. lovetox, you can mitm? and it can easily _not_ be detected, (who even reads the list of fingerprints)
  440. pep. Ah hmm
  441. pep. Not MITM
  442. pep. Add yourself in the device list
  443. jonas’ yeah, you’re not in the middle, but ... I’d still call this mitm
  444. lovetox sorry if you dont verify the fingerprint, then its also not a MITM attack, its a I hope this user doesnt know what he does attack
  445. jonas’ the effects (can read and inject(?) messages) and the mitigations (validate your bloody fingerprints) are the same
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  447. pep. jonas’, inject yes, the original account doesn't even have to know
  448. pep. If OMEMO is based on the fact that the server is not trusted, this is pretty much a fail
  449. lovetox pep., i cant agree with you on that
  450. lovetox you seem to think you can just add a device and then everyone is starting to encrypt all his messages to that
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  452. pep. Because it's not true?
  453. lovetox this is simply not possible if you configure your client correctly
  454. lovetox you cant with Gajim
  455. pep. Right, you have a big assumption right there
  456. lovetox there will be a popup that tells you, NEW DEVICE do you want to trust?
  457. lovetox otherwise it will never encrypt to that device
  458. lovetox there is no attack as a malicious server, that does not depend on the user actively ignoring to verify fingerprints
  459. jonas’ lovetox, and the average user will just accept
  460. lovetox but thats true for every encryption
  461. pep. Yes
  462. lovetox this has nothing to do with omemo
  463. pep. Well, yes and no. It has to do how it's designed, and what type of users it's targetting
  464. pep. People come to us saying "OMEMO is the #1 feature I want. I don't consider a client otherwise" and they don't understand what it means
  465. lovetox I could easily write a client that encrypts only to QR code scanned devices
  466. lovetox then every device is physically verified
  467. lovetox this is a client UI decision, and is not a fail in the protocol
  468. pep. True, you could. I doubt you'd manage to market that
  469. lovetox yeah of course, lets make compromises, because the thread model is not NSA prove
  470. lovetox the thread model is, lets encrypt 99% of my data in a way that 99% of people cant decrypt it
  471. lovetox *profe
  472. pep. proof :)
  473. lovetox *proof
  474. lovetox damn it
  475. lovetox didnt write that for a long time, and it seemd wrong :D
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  477. lovetox no im all for looking into this stuff, but signal protocol or whatever you want to call it, is pretty pretty good
  478. lovetox there is really not much left to make better
  479. Ge0rG > lets encrypt 99% of my data in a way that 99% of people cant decrypt it I don't want 99% of people to decrypt my data! Only a selected subset of a few persons!
  480. Ge0rG the challenge is to build a usable client around the signal protocol.
  481. Ge0rG actually, no. The challenge is to build a usable client around any encryption primitive.
  482. lovetox i agree thats the challenge
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  484. Ge0rG I think that OpenPGP has better UX than OMEMO, and Matrix seems to agree. A per-account master key that is the root of all trust for a user is so much more transparent and usable than N device keys on your side and M device keys on each of your contact's side with NxM trust relationships
  485. Ge0rG But what do I know.
  486. lovetox and in my opinion what we have now, specially in Gajim there is lots of room for improvement before i go and criticise the protocol
  487. Ge0rG if the protocol did it right, you wouldn't have a forest of possible fuckups to solve in your client.
  488. lovetox Ge0rG, i also wrote a already usable openpgp plugin for the current Gajim version, works fine, i didnt impl the secret key transfer yet
  489. lovetox and you can also make openpgp hard to use
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  491. pep. lovetox, I just tested with conversations and dino, none tell me I've added a new device
  492. Ge0rG But we only ever specify the wire format, no need to tell developers how to solve the really complicated UX problems.
  493. pep. So I guess that's already a nice set of users not checking
  494. lovetox pep., because blind trust is activated in C by default maybe?
  495. Ge0rG Except that for encryption, a UX fail might kill people.
  496. pep. lovetox, of course it is
  497. pep. That's the whole point of Conversations
  498. lovetox to actually have conversations :D
  499. lovetox not care about encryption
  500. pep. I disagree here
  501. lovetox i agree with that to be honest, lets concentrate less about that crypto mania and more about usable clients
  502. Ge0rG Let's not implement OMEMO.
  503. pep. mod_omemo_mitm when
  504. pep. Just to prove a point
  505. Ge0rG If you are a political dissident, don't use xmpp. It will get you killed.
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  507. Ge0rG Also there is no strong binding between the JID and the keys, so OMEMO ends up being an encryption overlay with opaque rules (superset of device IDs of all the participant JIDs) on top of a message routing overlay with opaque rules on top of a federated client - server - server - client overlay on top of TCP IP
  508. ta Ge0rG: just out of couriosity, what's your recommendation for endangered persons?
  509. Ge0rG ta: depends on who's after you. NSA - don't use Smartphones. Russians - don't use Telegram. Other countries - use Apple devices and Signal with a burner number from an American VoIP service
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  512. Ge0rG ta: I'm not an endangered person, so I didn't do thorough research.
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  515. pep. Tbh I understand the "privacy by default" bits and I agree with that. I would want to reach a level where people still have some margin to do their research when they suspect they're being targeted. Atm it's probably to late when you reach this conclusion
  516. ta Mw neither, but i am interested in that topic. To secure your privacy yoi almost have to act like a "wanted" person.
  517. ta I am aware that XMPP is not ideal for that matter either.
  518. pep. I don't think any solution out there is tbh, you can use bits and pieces of some solutions, but the most effective one is certainly to act as a commoner
  519. ta And configuring mobile devices to leak as little information as possible is a fight against windmills.
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  522. ta I can not act like most commoners, i don't want to use closed Software (dont get me started on hardware, its a pity). So i always stand out of the masses. That's why i like to encrypt stuff. Since i would stand out my bitstreams sourroubding me shall not be plaintext. Like i dont run around with Information about me printed on my clothes.
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  525. ta Some real p2p solution routed through some onion protocol, verified only in person and used on fully encrypted devices with plausible deniabillity is probably the safest way to not leak content of your Conversation, but will be obvious as hell to agencies.
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  534. oli so xmpp was a great idea some time ago, but post snowden...
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  536. pep. Because pre-Snowden wasn't as bad?
  537. oli for irc like groups use matrix. for one to one use something p2p
  538. pep. I'd be interested to know if matrix actually helps here, or if it's more or less the same issues and you have to trust the server somewhat
  539. pep. hint: I don't think it changes much
  540. ta Depends on your needs
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  542. pep. We already specified the need in the discussion above. "You don't trust your server"
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  553. rion Hi. I'm looking at "6.3 Stream Feature" of caps xep. It's nice. But is there something similar for services list (disco#items) and their versions? I mean I'd like to cache not just jabber.ru but conference.jabber.ru, upload.jabber.ru and other services of my server.
  554. lovetox but how do you get the info about the version of the disco items?
  555. lovetox with normal contacts, we exchange presence and we have to do this anyway so we add the version there and save a query
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  557. lovetox but you exchange nothing with a MUC or component where you could add the version and save the query
  558. lovetox the first every contact is the disco query, so you get to know what that thing is in the first place
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  560. rion lovetox: no idea how to do this properly. for example if caps computation of jabber.ru would also include conference.jabber.ru that would be enough for me.
  561. lovetox to answer your question, no we dont have something like that for server components
  562. rion btw about muc. ejabberd already can compute caps for it and send them early on join.
  563. lovetox thats too late
  564. lovetox you have to know if a jid is a muc before you join
  565. rion well yes. but it's better than nothing
  566. rion is there a place where I can write my wishes for xep improvements?
  567. lovetox hm its only useful if you dont use MAM
  568. lovetox yes the standards mailing list
  569. lovetox standards@xmpp.org
  570. lovetox oh rion i spoke too soon
  571. lovetox there is an experimental xep who does what you want i think
  572. lovetox at least in part
  573. lovetox https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0390.html#usecases-stream-feature
  574. rion 390?
  575. lovetox thats would be also the place to comment for improvements because its experimental
  576. lovetox 115 will never change
  577. lovetox also for the MUC case there is another problem
  578. lovetox the MUC component has caps but they are not that useful
  579. lovetox because every MUC jid itself can have different caps
  580. rion interesting
  581. lovetox yeah but also here again, server caps yeah nice
  582. lovetox but what you even more need are your account caps
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  605. rion well I just sent the email about xep-0390 updates. I hope it's not lost since I don't have any notifications about its destiny :)
  606. lovetox yeah takes some minutes until it shows up
  607. l has joined
  608. lovetox you registered on the list though?
  609. rion nope..
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  611. lovetox em yeah i maybe should have mentioned that ^^^^
  612. yomane has joined
  613. lovetox dont know if it allows to post for unregistered users
  614. lovetox https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/standards
  615. rion should I send "register" or something ?
  616. rion ok
  617. lovetox hm rion no mom
  618. lovetox seems you dont need to register
  619. lovetox the registration is for subscribing
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  621. lovetox here you can look if it is posted
  622. lovetox https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/
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  624. lovetox ah damn rion
  625. lovetox it says it
  626. lovetox Note: To cut down on spam, you must be subscribed to this list in order to post!
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  629. rion I see. I'll resend :)
  630. rion just subscribed
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  638. rion it's there now
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  640. lovetox gratz on your first post :D
  641. rion =))
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