XSF Discussion - 2019-01-05

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  157. prezident hi, i am having a question regarding the correct use of starttls. i noticed that sleekxmpp just copies the response from the server, and the servers seem to accept that. this leads to the following: s: <starttls><required/></starttls> c: <starttls><required/></starttls> s: <proceed> is this the correct usage, or should child elements be disallowed at this stage? current implementation also allows sending of arbitrary elements like <starttls><penis-required/></starttls>...
  158. Zash Lol
  159. Zash prezident: You're supposed to ignore everything you don't understand.
  160. Link Mauve prezident, most implementations don’t reject invalid attributes or children, but you shouldn’t rely on that.
  161. prezident well, the rfc only states <starttls/> on client side
  162. prezident does that leave room for interpretation?
  163. prezident ejabberd does reject a lot of invalid xml, but not that for example
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  165. prezident while it might not be helpful to just change current implementations i was just wondering how to interpret the rfc
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  167. Link Mauve prezident, it’s definitely helpful to fix this library to only send what the RFC is asking.
  168. Link Mauve Note that SleekXMPP is kinda abandonned, and you should migrate to slixmpp at some point.
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  170. prezident i am on the other side ;)
  171. Link Mauve You should tell your users to move to a non-abandonned library then. ^^
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  174. prezident might be fixed already, who knows
  175. prezident the library wasnt my main focus really
  176. prezident i was more like wondering why no server rejects that
  177. Zash In the case of Prosody, it just doesn't really look that closely
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  179. Zash Why would it? What does it matter?
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  183. prezident i did not take into account that unknown child elements are not to be parsed
  184. prezident but at that stage, there really never are any children
  185. Kev Well, they're to be parsed, but unknown stuff is usually ignored.
  186. Kev Although technically that's meant to be stuff in unknown namespaces.
  187. Zash The code in question doesn't even inspect the payload. It gets triggered by the name and xmlns combo and does its thing
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  189. Kev A server would be in its rights to reject that, because it's shoving stuff into a namespace it shouldn't be - but I'd be surprised to find many entities that did so, there's just no value.
  190. Half-Shot Hmm, I can't see prezident's messages.
  191. Link Mauve prezident, please write something.
  192. prezident kev: its a matter of how the parser is implemented
  193. Link Mauve Half-Shot, nothing should hide his messages from you, they are well-formed.
  194. prezident unicode thing?
  195. Zash message id attr?
  196. prezident miranda does not generate ids for groupchat messages
  197. prezident that could be it
  198. Kev prezident: All XML needs to be parsed, because malformed XML must be rejected.
  199. jonas’ you also can’t really not-parse parts of the XML
  200. prezident kev: no i meant how you walk through the elements
  201. jonas’ if you want to see what’s behind it
  202. Half-Shot Link Mauve: Okay, could also be a bug in xmpp.js :|
  203. Zash > <message ... id="07d1636f-0e7e-4700-a6b5-edb12ff2ee6d-50B"><body>unicode thing?</body></message>
  204. jonas’ ah yes
  205. Zash Is that ... poezio adding the id?
  206. jonas’ yes, poezio does that
  207. jonas’ or rather, sli x
  208. jonas’ or rather, slixmpp
  209. jonas’ for reasons which are unclear to me
  210. prezident to identify the message...
  211. jonas’ prezident, on *received* messages? ;-)
  212. jonas’ that doesn’t make sense
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  214. prezident yes, when reentering the room the client needs to know which messages it already showed to the user
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  216. prezident which or what? whatever...
  217. Zash That doesn't make sense
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  220. prezident it does
  221. jonas’ I think we’re misunderstanding each other
  222. prezident or the client will save the same message again in its history
  223. jonas’ slixmpp is adding IDs to messages it has received
  224. jonas’ random IDs
  225. prezident and will display it one time more on every entering of the chatroom...
  226. jonas’ since the IDs are added by the *receiving* client and independent of the content, there is no way this can be used for deduplication
  227. prezident oh sorry
  228. jonas’ to make deduplication work, you have to add IDs on the sending client
  229. jonas’ or the MUC service
  230. Zash Or somehow magically generate the same ID for the duplicate message again
  231. jonas’ speaking of which, I’d like MUC services to add IDs to messages if the sending client didn’t.
  232. Zash Didn't we just add "server doesn't touch ids" as a feature?
  233. prezident jonas: mam adds an archive id to messages which fullfils this requirement
  234. jonas’ Zash, yeah, but non-existent IDs aren’t IDs :)
  235. Link Mauve jonas’, +1, we should add that to MUC.
  236. jonas’ prezident, requires the MUC to support MAM though, just for simple deduplication
  237. Zash Do it
  238. Zash Do it now
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  241. prezident jonas’: of course a workaround only
  242. jonas’ Zash, where do I get random IDs from again in prosody?
  243. Zash jonas’: util.id
  244. prezident but as this is only important for channels with history, isnt mam the right way to go anyway?
  245. jonas’ you said that the other day, but I forgot
  246. jonas’ thanks
  247. prezident "right" in the sense of best practice
  248. Zash jonas’: I'm wondering if the "medium" one should be closer to uuidv4 in entropy
  249. jonas’ Zash, sounds reasonable
  250. jonas’ Zash, https://paste.debian.net/hidden/69c1e82e/ ;-)
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  252. Zash :)
  253. jonas’ ah, it ate the tabs again
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  310. Half-Shot Ah, so I couldn't see `prezidents` message because the ID wasn't there/ wasn't unique and the bridge dedupes messages across it's users using the ID.
  311. jonas’ it should not do that with live messages
  312. jonas’ only with history messages
  313. jonas’ (if at all)
  314. Half-Shot I'll stick on debug logging to be sure, but I'm certain I've seen the same message arrive for all the participants connected via the bridge.
  315. Zash Well, of course, each participant gets a copy of the message.
  316. jonas’ you could pick a primary participant whose message view you treat as authoritative
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  318. Zash Skype bridge thing from back in the day had a magic user called "Skype" that was that primary user
  319. Zash Probably more correct to forward each message only to the occupant they're destined for
  320. jonas’ that, too
  321. Zash Potential security issue if the MUC does things like security label based filtering.
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  351. flow 1
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  369. lnj I was told to advertise this a bit, so also in this MUC: My MIX implementation in QXmpp has working parsing/serialization of most of what's in XEP-0369 and XEP-0405.
  370. lnj https://github.com/qxmpp-project/qxmpp/pull/174 https://github.com/qxmpp-project/qxmpp/pull/175 https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/730
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  399. oli ‎lnj‎: nice!
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  407. pep. TIL https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0247.html, which seems like a cool idea. It references http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/jingle-xtls.html though, as in it references an /inbox/ XEP. Any idea what happened about it? Why it was not accepted etc.
  408. Zash And todays XMPP archeology subject is ...
  409. Zash > We assume that all XMPP entities will have X.509 certificates hnnnm
  410. Zash I do wonder if something like SPK or SRP would work
  411. Half-ShotX has left
  412. Zash Oh, it mentions SRP
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  414. Zash Could do stuff with anonmous ciphers and sending some verifier in-band too.
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  416. Zash pep.: I imagine the objection is that it's not perfect and you need to trust the server
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  420. pep. As a server admin, I would very much like to benefit from plausible deniability, if that can ever be a thing :)
  421. Zash https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2009-January/020877.html is the only relevant thing I find from 2009
  422. Zash pep.: "I could plausibly have MITMed your Jingle" ;)
  423. pep. I know..
  424. Zash Is there even encryption for Jingle today?
  425. Zash In use?
  426. pep. I assume XTLS was an attempt at that, maybe the only one(?)
  427. pep. Anybody ever used ESessions?
  428. Zash There's https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0396.html but it's pretty new and I haven't heard about anything using it
  429. pep. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0218.html
  430. Zash Maybe one time in 2008
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  433. Zash Back when we had working Jingle VoIP and video chat
  434. Zash On phones!!!!1
  435. Zash shakes his N900
  436. pep. :D
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  439. pep. So yeah reading about XTLS and the first condition being to have an x509 cert, that's going to be meh
  440. pep. "typically self-signed and automatically generated by an XMPP client", and we come back to the same issues we have with verifying fingerprints
  441. Zash Yeah, that's kinda meh
  442. Zash You can do TLS without certs
  443. pep. But then what do you trust
  444. Zash You trust that the NSA is too lazy to MITM your cat pictures
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  446. Zash Send some hash through the XMPP channel to the other party and verify it that way
  447. Zash Eg like the channel binding hash used in SCRAM-PLUS
  448. pep. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsXKS8Nyu8Q
  449. Zash Then you get a channel should be about as secure as the XMPP path
  450. pep. Zash, thanks for volonteering!
  451. pep. Zash, thanks for volunteering!
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  454. Zash pep.: done. prosody already supports this ;)
  455. pep. You mean 247 + encrypted session?
  456. Zash since jingle is purely a client thing and all the server needs is to route iq stanzas :)
  457. pep. That's all client stuff right
  458. pep. pff
  459. pep. I knew there was a trick
  460. jonas’ :D
  461. Zash One does not simply solve the key problem
  462. Zash If OMEMO or some other E2EE had full stanza encryption you could have bootstrapped secure XTLS over that
  463. pep. The thing here with clients negociating encrypted sessions is that we can't even use DANE-like things right?
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  465. jonas’ yes
  466. pep. Zash, then you trust that you OMEMO sessions is "Secure"
  467. jonas’ you have to trust something
  468. pep. yes
  469. pep. Trust, a complicated story.
  470. pep. session*
  471. Zash There's DANE for S/MIME so it's not entirely irrelevant
  472. pep. I hear you should not use S/MIME anymore for emails at least, (following the efail things. https://media.ccc.de/v/35c3-9463-attacking_end-to-end_email_encryption)
  473. jonas’ aren’t all the efail things broken cilents which will be fixed eventually?
  474. Zash Even if you manage to convince E2EE enthusiasts to trust DNSSEC...
  475. jonas’ or is there something conceptually kaputt with S/MIME?
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  477. pep. jonas’, I think there's a bit more to it, as in it doesn't include checksum or sth? Don't quote me on this, watch the talk if you have time
  478. Zash Everything is broken
  479. jonas’ I don’t like "{watch,read,…} $thing" replies
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  481. pep. Either that or I watch it again and quote it for you :/
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  483. jonas’ hm
  484. pep. let me find the specific parts
  485. Zash jonas’: I looked at your message but I did not understand it
  486. jonas’ pep., I’m going to be busy for the remainder of the day anyways
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  497. pep. > S/MIME doesn't have a MAC (Message Authentication Code), which means it cannot detect by standards wether a message was changed or not And apparently the Efail-related changes to S/MIME are: > It is therefore recommended that mail systems migrate to using AES-GCM as quickly as possible ^ Efail CBC Gadget attack, and for direct exfiltration attack: > Clients SHOULD treat each of the different pieces of the multipart/mixed construct as being of different origins. So yes that's a client issue, but the guy says "You can just try to convince your email client not to do any external connection. [..] for a cryptographer, this means _broken_"
  498. pep. Apparently OpenPGP is a bit better in a way that it has MDC, Modification Detection Code, but not all keys do this. It was added as info on the key directly for backwards compatibility. And lots of keys don't. Also the standard was not entirely clear what to do with MDC errors, and would still pass the payload to clients
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