XSF Discussion - 2019-01-06

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  257. Syndace More OMEMO!
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  260. pep. Nice try :p
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  262. Syndace OMEMO has a general problem with the key exchange assuming guaranteed message delivery. The key exchange protocol was not designed for lost or out-of-order messages. To mitigate this, clients send key exchange messages until they receive a first encrypted response, which tells them, that the key exchange was successful. So I was wandering, isn't there any mechanism for message delivery that kind of "guarantees" the properties we need?
  263. Syndace Or could we use IQs for the initial key exchange instead of messages?
  264. Syndace wondering* lol
  265. Syndace I see that IQs would take the asynchrony of the protocol, as both parties need to be online for the IQ to succeed.
  266. Zash What level of guarantee?
  267. Syndace If it's not 100% then it doesn't really help.
  268. Syndace The message must arrive at it's target, otherwise we have to stick to the old hacky workarounds.
  269. Zash If your thing depends on something being perfect then you're going to be dissapointed.
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  271. Syndace Or at least a mechanism that notifies you about delivery fialure
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  273. Zash Something something two generals.
  274. Zash You can stick a counter in there somewhere, and have the other party reply with the last number in sequence they got. Like TCP or such.
  275. Syndace this is what OMEMO does, but not for the key exchange, only for the messages after a successful key exchange
  276. Syndace Thinking about it again, I guess my search is pointless. Even a notification about failed delivery doesn't fix the issue I have in mind. Only real guaranteed delivery solves the problem and that's something I'm not gonna get.
  277. Syndace Well then, dirty hacks it'll be
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  281. Zash Push for more xep198
  282. Zash and xep288
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  284. pep. What time does the summit usually end on the friday btw, and is there anything planned afterwards
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  306. erkanfiles Is there still a need to write minutes for the last meeting?
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  311. Neustradamus There is a real comparator of XMPP RFCs and all newer? A lot of devs are lost... - https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3920 -> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6120 -> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7590 - https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3921 -> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6121 - https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4622 -> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5122 - https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6122 -> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7622
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  315. Ge0rG Anybody seen Alex? It's time to open the Q1 membership season
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  317. pep. Link Mauve, that reminds me you have patches for memberbot for slixmpp and python3, we should push that at some point
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  326. Ge0rG Also a board(?) question I was kindly asked to forward: is it possible to become an xsf member using a pseudonym?
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  382. lovetox about the new xep proposed by goffi, do servers even have something like "modification" data implemented right now with pubusb?
  383. lovetox are items not just overwritten and then it becomes a new item and not a modified one
  384. lovetox also its not clear to me what order by=creation means regarding MAM
  385. lovetox items are already ordered by creation, what matters is ASC or DESC
  386. Zash Prosody doesn't, it uses the same mechanism for as for MAM, which is append-only
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  390. goffi lovetox: pubsub doesn't has currently something as "modification", it is indeed a new item. The XEP changes the business logic to have this notion, it is explained in §3.
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  392. goffi regarding MAM, it's mostly useful for Pubsub, for chat message there is no possibility to overwritte a message, so it's doesn't change anything.
  393. goffi it*
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  397. goffi Zash: what happens in Prosody when an item is overwritten, does it appear on top (as it should with XEP-0060 only) or does it stay at the same place?
  398. Zash it deletes the conflicting id and appends the new item
  399. goffi OK
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  409. lovetox still goffi its not evident for me that saying i want to order something by creation, that it implies ASC or DESC
  410. lovetox creation is the column, im ordering my set by
  411. lovetox it says nothing about the asc or desc
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  413. lovetox it gets clearer trough your examples what you want it to mean, but i think this should be spelled out in my opinion
  414. goffi lovetox: yes it does, § 4.1 says "Pubsub service then returns the 3 plays created the most recently, first one being the most recent"
  415. goffi so it's DESC
  416. goffi but I can say it more explicitly if it helps, sure
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  419. goffi but please then comment on the mailing list, I'll lost track of stuff in the MUC, on mailing list I can check emails before my next update.
  420. goffi lovetox: ^
  421. lovetox i guess it would help, also because you extend this XEP to MAM
  422. lovetox do you mean only the pubsub portion of MAM?
  423. lovetox or in general?
  424. lovetox i guess general
  425. lovetox yeah i will write to the mailing list :)
  426. goffi I need it for the pubsub portion, I'm not sure if it's interesting to have it in general, but in the XEP it's general.
  427. goffi I was waiting for feedbacks to be sure if it make sense or not for chat message. For now we can't overwritte anything in MAM archive for chat, so the XEP has no effect (date of creation = date of modification here).
  428. lovetox it has an effect if you say creation=DESC because mam sends messages in ASC
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  432. goffi ah good point.
  433. lovetox but i will add write later a mail with my comments
  434. goffi great, thanks for feedback.
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  439. Zash Can you include an 'updated at' timestamp in the payload and order on that in the client?
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  443. Ge0rG A delay element maybe?
  444. Zash Atom payloads do have separate published and updated timestamps iirc
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  447. goffi Zash: we already have "update at" for blog, but I would have to download all items to order in the client (and the value could be fake)
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  467. flow Ge0rG, There where cases where people where denied membership because the did not reveal the real name in the past
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  470. Ge0rG flow: thanks. I haven't seen anything relevant when skimming the application rules
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  575. lovetox so MAM for pubsub holds the whole history of all items?
  576. lovetox so i publish a new one, and then modify it, then MAM has 2 items?
  577. Zash The past is immutable!
  578. lovetox so this is a yes
  579. lovetox so basically what goffi wants, is sort by creation date DESC then sort by modification date DESC
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  582. lovetox hm no, he wants the most current blog post but it should not be an edit of a old item
  583. lovetox not sure how you can even with that order xep reach that goal
  584. goffi lovetox: for MAM you make a request similar to pubsub, and you can do filtering. It's the pubsub archive, you can overwrite an item.
  585. goffi lovetox: I have already a working implementation (client + server), it's working as expected.
  586. lovetox yeah i just want to understand it
  587. lovetox do you use now MAM or not?
  588. goffi lovetox: yes, I use it to filter by categories in blogs
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  590. goffi lovetox: and I have more uses for it. For instance in tickets, I need to be able to find only "bugs", or only tickets in progress.
  591. lovetox but setting an order, has nothing to do with a filter
  592. goffi I'm just talking about my use of MAM here, not the order thing.
  593. lovetox how do you filter on message categorys?
  594. Zash Invent a way
  595. goffi I have a custom filter, 'http://salut-a-toi.org/protocols/mam_filter_category' and I specify the category I need.
  596. lovetox ok so this has nothing to do with the order xep
  597. goffi no this is to explain how I use MAM
  598. goffi the order is needed in many places thought
  599. goffi For blogs, if I publish "post1", "post2", then "post3", and I find a spelling mistake in "post1", I publish again with this id, but I don't want it to appear on top of my node, like it is the case by default.
  600. goffi But for comments (or forums), I may want to have the last overwritten post first.
  601. goffi and maybe later if I do something similar to stack overflow, I will want to have items ordered by evaluation.
  602. lovetox are you aware that server treat every MAM RSM query as its own query to the database
  603. lovetox say you want the last 1000 items, but a page size of 10
  604. lovetox they dont request 1000 items
  605. lovetox they only get 10 and send them to you
  606. Zash That would be an implementation detail of the server
  607. lovetox that means every ordering you want, is only executed on these 10 messages
  608. Zash I think in theory you can cache database cursors and try to be smart about them
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  610. goffi No the order is on the whole archive, may it's not clear enought in the XEP, but it's about the whole archive, it would make no sense for just a page.
  611. lovetox Zash im not saying its a technical limitation, im trying to tell goffi that his XEP does not mention that he wants the order executed on the whole theoretical requested set
  612. goffi I can say that more explicitly, but yes it's about the whole archive.
  613. Zash So, SQL over MAM?
  614. goffi It's not as complexe as SQL, but we have already limit and offset with RSM, order was just the missing part.
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  623. MattJ I'm planning to rear the spec tomorrow, will probably have some feedback
  624. MattJ I'm planning to read the spec tomorrow, will probably have some feedback
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  628. goffi MattJ: cool
  629. goffi OK I'm done for today, .o/
  630. MattJ Good night :)
  631. flow nighty night :)
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