OMEMO has a general problem with the key exchange assuming guaranteed message delivery. The key exchange protocol was not designed for lost or out-of-order messages. To mitigate this, clients send key exchange messages until they receive a first encrypted response, which tells them, that the key exchange was successful. So I was wandering, isn't there any mechanism for message delivery that kind of "guarantees" the properties we need?
Syndace
Or could we use IQs for the initial key exchange instead of messages?
Syndace
wondering* lol
Syndace
I see that IQs would take the asynchrony of the protocol, as both parties need to be online for the IQ to succeed.
Zash
What level of guarantee?
Syndace
If it's not 100% then it doesn't really help.
Syndace
The message must arrive at it's target, otherwise we have to stick to the old hacky workarounds.
Zash
If your thing depends on something being perfect then you're going to be dissapointed.
frainzhas left
Syndace
Or at least a mechanism that notifies you about delivery fialure
frainzhas joined
Zash
Something something two generals.
Zash
You can stick a counter in there somewhere, and have the other party reply with the last number in sequence they got. Like TCP or such.
Syndace
this is what OMEMO does, but not for the key exchange, only for the messages after a successful key exchange
Syndace
Thinking about it again, I guess my search is pointless. Even a notification about failed delivery doesn't fix the issue I have in mind. Only real guaranteed delivery solves the problem and that's something I'm not gonna get.
Syndace
Well then, dirty hacks it'll be
Half-ShotXhas left
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
Zash
Push for more xep198
Zash
and xep288
lumihas joined
pep.
What time does the summit usually end on the friday btw, and is there anything planned afterwards
Half-ShotXhas left
lskdjfhas left
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
andrey.ghas left
andrey.ghas joined
frainzhas left
!xsf_Martinhas left
frainzhas joined
mimi89999has joined
mimi89999has joined
mimi89999has joined
olihas left
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
erkanfiles
Is there still a need to write minutes for the last meeting?
olihas joined
tuxhas left
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
Neustradamus
There is a real comparator of XMPP RFCs and all newer?
A lot of devs are lost...
- https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3920 -> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6120 -> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7590
- https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3921 -> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6121
- https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4622 -> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5122
- https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6122 -> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7622
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas left
Ge0rG
Anybody seen Alex? It's time to open the Q1 membership season
mimi89999has joined
pep.
Link Mauve, that reminds me you have patches for memberbot for slixmpp and python3, we should push that at some point
Half-ShotXhas left
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
neshtaxmpphas left
mimi89999has joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
Ge0rG
Also a board(?) question I was kindly asked to forward: is it possible to become an xsf member using a pseudonym?
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
waqashas joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
neshtaxmpphas joined
labdsfhas left
labdsfhas joined
labdsfhas joined
lskdjfhas joined
lskdjfhas joined
Erkan Fileshas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
ThibGhas left
ThibGhas joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
waqashas left
waqashas joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
olihas left
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
frainzhas joined
olihas left
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
frainzhas left
waqashas left
frainzhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
frainzhas left
Marandahas joined
Marandahas joined
lovetox
about the new xep proposed by goffi, do servers even have something like "modification" data implemented right now with pubusb?
lovetox
are items not just overwritten and then it becomes a new item and not a modified one
lovetox
also its not clear to me what order by=creation means regarding MAM
lovetox
items are already ordered by creation, what matters is ASC or DESC
Zash
Prosody doesn't, it uses the same mechanism for as for MAM, which is append-only
Half-ShotXhas left
frainzhas joined
lnjhas left
goffi
lovetox: pubsub doesn't has currently something as "modification", it is indeed a new item. The XEP changes the business logic to have this notion, it is explained in §3.
olihas left
goffi
regarding MAM, it's mostly useful for Pubsub, for chat message there is no possibility to overwritte a message, so it's doesn't change anything.
goffi
it*
Half-ShotXhas left
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
goffi
Zash: what happens in Prosody when an item is overwritten, does it appear on top (as it should with XEP-0060 only) or does it stay at the same place?
Zash
it deletes the conflicting id and appends the new item
goffi
OK
vanitasvitaehas left
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
frainzhas joined
efrithas left
krauqhas left
tahas left
tahas left
tahas joined
lovetox
still goffi its not evident for me that saying i want to order something by creation, that it implies ASC or DESC
lovetox
creation is the column, im ordering my set by
lovetox
it says nothing about the asc or desc
frainzhas joined
lovetox
it gets clearer trough your examples what you want it to mean, but i think this should be spelled out in my opinion
goffi
lovetox: yes it does, § 4.1 says "Pubsub service then returns the 3 plays created the most recently, first one being the most recent"
goffi
so it's DESC
goffi
but I can say it more explicitly if it helps, sure
frainzhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
goffi
but please then comment on the mailing list, I'll lost track of stuff in the MUC, on mailing list I can check emails before my next update.
goffi
lovetox: ^
lovetox
i guess it would help, also because you extend this XEP to MAM
lovetox
do you mean only the pubsub portion of MAM?
lovetox
or in general?
lovetox
i guess general
lovetox
yeah i will write to the mailing list :)
goffi
I need it for the pubsub portion, I'm not sure if it's interesting to have it in general, but in the XEP it's general.
goffi
I was waiting for feedbacks to be sure if it make sense or not for chat message. For now we can't overwritte anything in MAM archive for chat, so the XEP has no effect (date of creation = date of modification here).
lovetox
it has an effect if you say creation=DESC because mam sends messages in ASC
frainzhas joined
frainzhas left
Half-ShotXhas left
goffi
ah good point.
lovetox
but i will add write later a mail with my comments
goffi
great, thanks for feedback.
frainzhas joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
Zashhas left
Zash
Can you include an 'updated at' timestamp in the payload and order on that in the client?
Half-ShotXhas left
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
Ge0rG
A delay element maybe?
Zash
Atom payloads do have separate published and updated timestamps iirc
Half-ShotXhas left
frainzhas left
goffi
Zash: we already have "update at" for blog, but I would have to download all items to order in the client (and the value could be fake)
frainzhas joined
frainzhas joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
Erkan Fileshas joined
Erkan Fileshas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
Erkan Fileshas joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
flow
Ge0rG, There where cases where people where denied membership because the did not reveal the real name in the past
Half-ShotXhas left
j.rhas joined
Ge0rG
flow: thanks. I haven't seen anything relevant when skimming the application rules
marc_has left
lhas left
lskdjfhas left
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
Zashhas left
marc_has joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
APachhas left
lnjhas left
ThibGhas left
ThibGhas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
ThibGhas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
MattJhas joined
ThibGhas joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
moparisthebesthas joined
alacerhas joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
marc_has left
marc_has joined
marc_has left
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
mimi89999has joined
lnjhas left
lnjhas left
lnjhas left
lnjhas left
lnjhas left
lnjhas left
lnjhas left
lnjhas left
lnjhas left
lnjhas left
lnjhas left
MattJhas left
tuxhas joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
404.cityhas joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
lhas joined
lnjhas left
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
frainzhas joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
neshtaxmpphas left
neshtaxmpphas left
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
lnjhas left
moparisthebesthas joined
404.cityhas left
j.rhas joined
lnjhas left
j.rhas joined
Guushas left
Guushas joined
Guushas left
Guushas joined
Guushas left
j.rhas joined
lhas joined
lhas joined
tahas left
tahas left
tahas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
mimi89999has joined
lovetox
so MAM for pubsub holds the whole history of all items?
lovetox
so i publish a new one, and then modify it, then MAM has 2 items?
Zash
The past is immutable!
lovetox
so this is a yes
lovetox
so basically what goffi wants, is sort by creation date DESC then sort by modification date DESC
olihas joined
mimi89999has joined
lovetox
hm no, he wants the most current blog post but it should not be an edit of a old item
lovetox
not sure how you can even with that order xep reach that goal
goffi
lovetox: for MAM you make a request similar to pubsub, and you can do filtering. It's the pubsub archive, you can overwrite an item.
goffi
lovetox: I have already a working implementation (client + server), it's working as expected.
lovetox
yeah i just want to understand it
lovetox
do you use now MAM or not?
goffi
lovetox: yes, I use it to filter by categories in blogs
olihas joined
goffi
lovetox: and I have more uses for it. For instance in tickets, I need to be able to find only "bugs", or only tickets in progress.
lovetox
but setting an order, has nothing to do with a filter
goffi
I'm just talking about my use of MAM here, not the order thing.
lovetox
how do you filter on message categorys?
Zash
Invent a way
goffi
I have a custom filter, 'http://salut-a-toi.org/protocols/mam_filter_category' and I specify the category I need.
lovetox
ok so this has nothing to do with the order xep
goffi
no this is to explain how I use MAM
goffi
the order is needed in many places thought
goffi
For blogs, if I publish "post1", "post2", then "post3", and I find a spelling mistake in "post1", I publish again with this id, but I don't want it to appear on top of my node, like it is the case by default.
goffi
But for comments (or forums), I may want to have the last overwritten post first.
goffi
and maybe later if I do something similar to stack overflow, I will want to have items ordered by evaluation.
lovetox
are you aware that server treat every MAM RSM query as its own query to the database
lovetox
say you want the last 1000 items, but a page size of 10
lovetox
they dont request 1000 items
lovetox
they only get 10 and send them to you
Zash
That would be an implementation detail of the server
lovetox
that means every ordering you want, is only executed on these 10 messages
Zash
I think in theory you can cache database cursors and try to be smart about them
olihas left
goffi
No the order is on the whole archive, may it's not clear enought in the XEP, but it's about the whole archive, it would make no sense for just a page.
lovetox
Zash im not saying its a technical limitation, im trying to tell goffi that his XEP does not mention that he wants the order executed on the whole theoretical requested set
goffi
I can say that more explicitly, but yes it's about the whole archive.
Zash
So, SQL over MAM?
goffi
It's not as complexe as SQL, but we have already limit and offset with RSM, order was just the missing part.
alacerhas left
lskdjfhas left
j.rhas joined
olihas joined
olihas joined
olihas joined
alacerhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
MattJ
I'm planning to rear the spec tomorrow, will probably have some feedback✎
MattJ
I'm planning to read the spec tomorrow, will probably have some feedback ✏