XSF Discussion - 2019-01-07

  1. goffi

    Hi. I don't get Evgeny answer, can anybody explain me how clustered database are affected by the fact that we use or not an attribute to specify level of ordering?

  2. waqas

    goffi: Most distributed and replicated databases tend to be eventually consistent, such that one db node may have a different modification timestamp for an item than another node in the cluster.

  3. waqas

    (mysql and postgres for example have async replication, they are ACID for a node, but not for the cluster; many nosql dbs are similar)

  4. goffi

    waqas: so he's not actually answering to the question (which is about adding an attribute to handle the order vs using order of <order/> elements), but talking about the feature in general, and only arguing about the modification time right?

  5. goffi

    And this sounds like implementation details, nothing prevent to add a field to the database which is set when the item is received, before any replication.

  6. goffi

    "order by" is used in SQL which can be used with clusters, so I don't see how this is different here.

  7. waqas

    goffi: Consistent order for a mutable ordering value like last-modified time (vs an "immutable one", like creation-time) really works in SQL dbs with a single node, or which have cluster-wide write locks.

  8. waqas

    In mysql for example, a write to one db replica does may take some time before it's written to the rest of the cluster.

  9. waqas

    So different nodes in the cluster may have a different understanding of last-modified time at any given point in time

  10. waqas

    Pagination is tough as well. You request page 1. Then you request page 2, except page 1 results may already be invalid by the time you ask for page 2.

  11. waqas

    Since last modified order is changing all the time

  12. waqas

    I don't want to speak for Evgeny, I'm just assuming the above is what he means.

  13. Zash

    Database synchronization is hard.

  14. goffi

    waqas: pagination issue is already mentioned in RSM. I'm not against adding a flag in the result saying it may be inconsistent.

  15. jonas’

    goffi, no pagination is not covered with RSM as soon as you order by a mutable field

  16. jonas’

    well, it is covered

  17. jonas’

    but it’s not safe anymore

  18. goffi

    "The set of items that match a query MAY change over time, even during the time that a requesting entity pages through the result set (e.g., a set of chatrooms, since rooms can be created and destroyed at any time). The paging protocol outlined in this section is designed so that entities MAY provide the following features" (§2.2)

  19. MattJ

    I'm confused by your one email which says " the order affect the whole archive, not just a result set" and in a following email "it's true that the order inside the page is not influenced."

  20. goffi

    waqas: thanks about the explanation. I think this should be mentioned in the XEP, and maybe a flag could be added.

  21. goffi

    MattJ: the first message was because yesterday it didn't seemed clear that the ordering was on the full history (i.e. we are not ordering the says 10 items we ask for, but we are ordering the whole archive and getting the 10 first items from that)

  22. MattJ


  23. goffi

    Matthew: the second is because there is currently no mechanism to say, inside the page result we get, that we want the first item to be the most recent or the least recent. Currently the XEP state (not explictly enough apparently, I'll fix that), that the first item of the page is always the most recent, regarless if we are getting the result normally, or backward using RSM.

  24. MattJ

    I'm personally leaning towards just having another field in the existing MAM query form, to keep things simple

  25. MattJ

    and then we can fix pubsub separately

  26. goffi

    waqas: by the way, the last modification time is currently the default ordering using XEP-0060 without anything else. There is actually no "modification" notion, it's just a new item, but that the result it the same.

  27. MattJ

    I think the problems are slightly different, because you can't update a MAM entry (and never will be able to)

  28. goffi

    MattJ: you mean extending XEP-0313 directly or havint a new XEP which extend MAM ?

  29. MattJ

    I was planning to extend XEP-0313

  30. Zash

    MattJ: Message corrections...

  31. MattJ

    and the problem with MAM isn't which property to sort on, it's simply which direction to sort in

  32. MattJ

    The problem with pubsub is not the direction, but the property

  33. Kev

    > I think the problems are slightly different, because you can't update a MAM entry (and never will be able to) Not 100% true, because of redaction, but close enough.

  34. MattJ

    and another reason not to solve both with the same protocol, is that the server implementation for both of these is quite different

  35. goffi

    MattJ: what about MAM with Pubsub (which is the case I'm most interested in) ? The item can be overwritten there.

  36. MattJ

    Yet the order-by XEP only allows discovery of support for <order>, not within a specific protocol

  37. Ge0rG

    cant we just implement SQL replication over XMPP and be done?

  38. goffi

    I can fix that and only use is with MAM for Pubsub, it doesn't really make sense in the other case anyway.

  39. MattJ

    I don't know - I have nothing to do with MAM-with-pubsub, never have, and I'm still unconvinced whether I ever will

  40. goffi

    I think filtering should have been a pubsub thing instead of a MAM thing, but today it's the only tool we have to filter items in Pubsub.

  41. goffi

    and it's a really important feature for most of use cases I have with Pubsub.

  42. goffi

    the MAM example in the order-by protoXEP is about Pubsub

  43. MattJ

    if we add order reversal to MAM, interaction with order-by would get confusing if that also let you select asc/desc

  44. MattJ

    Otherwise, they could probably live together

  45. MattJ

    But I don't know if I can imagine implementing it personally

  46. MattJ


  47. MattJ

    Maybe I can, in the context of pubsub, but basically it would be a separate implementation

  48. Zash

    PubSub in Prosody is squeezed through an abstract LRU cache, so that level would have to be thrown out and rebuilt

  49. MattJ

    goffi, does a config item on the pubsub node definitely not fulfil your requirements?

  50. MattJ

    (a config item that says "sort by update" or "sort by creation")

  51. Zash

    "keep order on ower-write"

  52. MattJ

    or do you need this control at the time of query?

  53. Zash

    There's no update in PubSub, only implicit deletion

  54. waqas

    I think the basic use-case being supported is just showing microblog posts by time they were first posted vs time when they were last modified. Last modified is current state, right?

  55. goffi

    MattJ: for some use cases I need to do it at query time. For instance for a forum, I want to be able to have last modified message popup on top, or have it by creation date.

  56. goffi

    Zash: no there is no update in Pubsub, that's why the "date of modification" is explained in the XEP, the business logic is changed.

  57. goffi

    waqas: last modified is current state yes.

  58. ralphm

    The idea is to _add_ business logic so that overwriting implies updating, right?

  59. goffi

    ralphm: yes

  60. goffi

    But also to have a way, later, to order by a field for instance (e.g. prioriy of a ticket, or evaluation of an answer to a question).

  61. dwd

    Hi folks.

  62. Ge0rG

    Hey dwd, back from holidays?

  63. dwd

    Yeah, holidays plus family emergency, unfortunately.

  64. Ge0rG

    dwd: sorry to hear that. Hope things are normalizing again

  65. dwd

    So I have an interesting problem with the XMPP Summit, and I wondered if anyone else had the same issue.

  66. dwd

    My new boss said he looked at the details for the XMPP Summit, and concluded it wasn't happening because there was nothing on the website and wiki page.

  67. jonas’

    the wiki page doesn’t look exactly empty tom e?

  68. Guus

    dwd - I am happy to facilitate later tonight

  69. Guus

    I'm about on my way back home, which will take some time.

  70. Guus

    In the mean time, if someone feels like drafting a blog post... 🙂

  71. jonas’

    we do have a blog post, don’t we?

  72. dwd

    jonas’, The Agenda is empty, for instance.

  73. jonas’


  74. dwd

    jonas’, And the blog post *is* there, but several articles down and not easily visible from the website.

  75. jonas’

    (that’s true, which is why I didn’t link it in the first place)

  76. Guus

    so, some kind of banner on the home page?

  77. jonas’

    the summit is members-only, isn’t it?

  78. Ge0rG

    maybe linking the blog post from the wiki would be a start?

  79. Zash

    pin it

  80. dwd

    jonas’, Not as far as I know.

  81. Guus

    ok, I need to go now

  82. dwd

    Guus, I'll catch you later...

  83. jonas’

    dwd, if what you say is true, a banner on the website would make sense, indeed

  84. Guus

    but I would welcome more exposure

  85. jonas’

    I can probably draft some HTML for a b anner on the website, but someone will have to do the design fine-tuning

  86. Ge0rG

    jonas’: what about a box of upcoming events?

  87. jonas’

    Ge0rG, complexity

  88. jonas’

    I want this simple now

  89. Ge0rG

    it could be on the wiki as well, and feature elections and the like

  90. Ge0rG

    speaking of which... there is still no election page for Q1

  91. Guus

    > I can probably draft some HTML for a b anner on the website, but someone will have to do the design fine-tuning 💓

  92. jonas’

    that’s a nice box you got there

  93. dwd

    jonas’, The problem isn't just a banner. The problem is that if it weren't for my insisting it's really A Thing, my manager wouldn't have believed it's a real event.

  94. jonas’

    dwd, yes, I see your point

  95. jonas’

    however, the banner is something I can do, and which I realised when browsing $anotherOrgs page recently that it is something the XSF lacks

  96. Guus

    The banner, linking to a Thing-definion

  97. Ge0rG

    dwd: isn't that kind of symptomatic for XSF events?

  98. jonas’

    (announcing the event loudly on the main page)

  99. Zash

    SCAM needs a bigger marketing budget?

  100. dwd

    Ge0rG, Yes.

  101. dwd

    But here's the thing - right now, XMPP jobs, whilst relatively few, are very highly paid. There seems to be a lot of XMPP about, in some well-resourced areas. We should be getting really good attendence.

  102. dwd

    So I'm wondering if the reason we're not is because it's not seen as a normal corporate-friendly event.

  103. jonas’

    Cobol jobs have the same classification

  104. jonas’

    dwd, for starters, from my perception, summit was members-only

  105. jonas’

    we’re not really advertising it to non-members

  106. dwd

    jonas’, No, and that can't be a good thing.

  107. Ge0rG

    from my perception, Summit is heavily biased to new protocol design, which is not typically something for newcomers

  108. dwd

    jonas’, The Dinner *is* members-only, though we've rarely enforced that.

  109. Ge0rG

    The one time I attended The Dinner, I wasn't a member.

  110. dwd

    Ge0rG, Yes, but we had an interesting session abotu where XMPP was used last time, which was really fascinating to me.

  111. Zash

    Members +1 ish?

  112. dwd

    Zash, Roughly.

  113. dwd

    But I wonder if we could [re-]introduce talks and other things that look a little more conference-y. We've done so before, but I think that making the Summit look a little more professional (ie, corporate) would help people expense travel to it, and therefore attend.

  114. jonas’

    seems legit

  115. Ge0rG

    dwd: that sounds like a great idea. Maybe have one day of talks and one day of workshops?

  116. Ge0rG

    Even just calling what we do every year "workshops" will already make it more enterprisey

  117. jonas’

    not that I consider myself to have a chance to attend on company budget, considering that we’re so not XMPP

  118. Zash

    That sounds fine

  119. Guus

    Let's add this to the agenda of the upcoming summit?

  120. Guus

    Also, I would not mind having more than one per year

  121. Ge0rG

    there used to be two, across the pond

  122. Guus

    We're we could differentiate

  123. dwd

    Ge0rG, I was thinking just an afternoon to start with, but yes.

  124. Guus

    dwd: would you mind drafting a semi static summit event description for on the website?

  125. Ge0rG

    dwd: an afternoon of talks? Sure

  126. Guus

    We can have jonas’ banner link to it

  127. Guus

    There's a start.

  128. Zash

    There's these sprint things

  129. dwd

    Guus, I'll scribble some text.

  130. dwd

    Zash, You mean the hackathon type things? The IETF seems to get people to come to those.

  131. Guus

    Then add the sprint thing (cc pep. )

  132. jonas’


  133. jonas’

    `npm i` then run `grunt` to compile Sass.

  134. jonas’


  135. jonas’

    I take my "I can do a banner" back

  136. Guus

    Ok, I'm starting my car engine, afk.

  137. Zash

    dwd: something something ask pep.

  138. dwd

    jonas’, This is why I said I would "scribble some text".

  139. Zash

    jonas’: what in the what and also why?

  140. pep.


  141. jonas’

    https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/498 dwd, Guus

  142. Kev

    I think running a Real Conference for XMPP might be a good idea.

  143. Ge0rG

    Yes, and that doesn't need to be the Summit

  144. Zash


  145. dwd

    Kev, I agree, but I think adapting the Summit to increase engagement probably gives the most overall benefit.

  146. Kev

    I don't think "We've got a room in the Cisco offices for a couple of days" is really it, though. What we do is perfect (well, YKWIM) for what we get out of it, which is advancing the state of XMPP with technical discussions, but a long way off being appealing as a Conference.

  147. Kev

    Which isn't to say we couldn't do a thing instead of the Summit (in it's usual form) instead, at the same time

  148. dwd

    Well, if we re-cast the bulk of the Summit as being "workshops" and "open panels", it might work, but I take your point.

  149. dwd nips off to pick up son.

  150. Kev

    It might, but I don't think one room at Cisco is what we need for this.

  151. Kev

    There's nothing stopping us doing a Conference and having protocol advancement sessions, either.

  152. jonas’

    except manpower

  153. Kev

    But probably not all of it, and I think it needs more prior organisation than a Summit.

  154. Ge0rG

    Those are separate goals - make Summit look more enterprisey while keeping the content / make a conference appealing to commercial xmpp users

  155. Kev

    There's "Try to make the Summit easy to expense for the usual sort of crowd" and "draw more people to the Summit"

  156. Erkan Files

    > There's "Try to make the Summit easy to expense for the usual sort of crowd" and "draw more people to the Summit" Does that mean that newbies should be able to participate and understand most of the "things" there?

  157. Zash

    Depends on what kind of newbie

  158. Erkan Files

    Like me

  159. ralphm

    So usually there is a bunch of discussion on protocol, like the last few times with MIX.

  160. ralphm

    Some of those can be really indepth, some not so.

  161. Zash

    What kind of participant would such an event aim for?

  162. ralphm

    So it depends on whether newbie means: “I haven't been around for long”, or “I don't know much about the protocols”

  163. ralphm

    I also want to note that we potentially have more rooms this year. Rudy (of Cisco) wrote: “I did in the meanwhile book the rooms Cassiopea and Electra (can be combined to a single larger, wider space) as well as the adjacent room Centaurus which you could use as a break room for speakers, organisers, logistics, ….”

  164. Erkan Files

    ralphm: Where is Cisco located

  165. ralphm


  166. ralphm


  167. Zash


  168. Erkan Files

    > So it depends on whether newbie means: “I haven't been around for long”, or “I don't know much about the protocols” I dont know much about the protocolls. My fear is that just the time and this MUC arent enough to get out of this kind of newbie status...

  169. lovetox

    what about https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/jingle-xtls.html

  170. lovetox

    how long does stuff stay in the inbox?

  171. lovetox


  172. Zash

    until the end of time

  173. Neustradamus


  174. jonas’

    lovetox, it’s never deleted

  175. pep.

    https://dpaste.de/BjkD/raw something like that for sprints would do? thoughts?

  176. pep.

    I'll send a patch

  177. ralphm


  178. pep.


  179. Guus

    I'm back home

  180. Guus

    Thanks for all of the ideas, people

  181. jonas’


  182. Guus

    I'd suggest keeping the summit pretty much as-is, and have another, more conferency, event, at another date.

  183. Guus

    I simply like the summit format - it has its own value.

  184. jonas’

    I tend to agree, even though I only participated remotely

  185. Guus

    side note: the Cisco offices are not publicly accessible.

  186. jonas’

    (I’ll have to figure out how to do that this year :/)

  187. Guus

    for a conferency-type of deal, we might want to consider using a different venue

  188. jonas’


  189. pep.

    I'm all for this new idea :)

  190. pep.

    well, maybe not new idea

  191. pep.

    But I want to see it implemented

  192. Guus

    In any case, I'd suggest to not deviate to much from the Summit format for the upcoming event - as it's close, I'd like to avoid confusion.

  193. jonas’

    very much +1

  194. pep.


  195. jonas’

    btw, I’m happy to hack in more crappy inline CSS to make this fancier: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/498

  196. jonas’

    but I’m at the limits of my creativity

  197. jonas’

    so if anyone provides a mockup, I’m happy to try to achieve that

  198. Guus

    jonas’ it looks great to me - although I'd prefer a flashy / contrasting color, to pull in attention

  199. pep.

    nit: can this be vcentered?

  200. pep.

    the text inside the box

  201. Guus

    and cente....whathesaid

  202. jonas’

    centering is trivial (and you probably mean hcenter)

  203. pep.

    I mean vcenter

  204. jonas’

    please suggest colors, I’m really bad at picking those

  205. jonas’

    pep., oh, you’re right

  206. Guus

    reddish or yellowish

  207. jonas’

    Guus, I guessed that much

  208. Guus

    I actually ment vcenter 🙂

  209. jonas’

    the details are the tricky part

  210. pep.

    vcentering was still one of the fun things to do when ran away from "the web"

  211. jonas’

    in this case, I just had to kill the margin-bottom of the p which holds the text

  212. Guus

    jonas’ we use this blue for active menus: maybe that'd work: #008CBA

  213. jonas’

    makes the link unreadable obviously

  214. jonas’

    I could make the entire thing clickable though

  215. jonas’

    which would do the trick

  216. Guus

    yeah, I suck at this more than you do 😃

  217. jonas’


  218. jonas’

    I think this is fair

  219. pep.


  220. jonas’

    updated the PR: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/498

  221. Guus

  222. goffi

    If I get it well, I find this comment deeply depressing: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18847472

  223. goffi

    Telehash is a project from Jeremie Miller right?

  224. Guus

    well, it's an answer to a direct question on the status of telehash: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18827032

  225. Guus

    so it's not an unsolicited "by the way, look at this" type of comment.

  226. goffi

    Guus: yes, and it's coming from the Telehash core team apparently.

  227. goffi

    Guus: no that's not my point, my point is that Telehash, a project founded by Jeremie Miller, creator of Jabber, is using Slack to communicate.

  228. jonas’

    looking at the screenshot after a while, this looks *so* much more alive now

  229. jonas’

    with the upcoming event and all

  230. jonas’

    we should be doing this for all our upcoming events

  231. Guus

    @jonas` definitely.

  232. jonas’

    I wonder whether we can somehow integrate this with the blog, so that we don’t have to micro-manage tihs, but I don’t think that’s easy

  233. pep.

    jonas’, sprints and all?

  234. jonas’


  235. goffi

    yes the banner looks nice.

  236. Guus

    i'd love to replace that top-right wiki thing

  237. jonas’

    top-right wiki thing?

  238. fippo

    goffi: temas was one of the folks running jabberstudio.org back in the early days :-|

  239. goffi

    fippo: that's even more depressing :(

  240. Guus

    jonas’ https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Main_Page, top right, "upcoming events"

  241. jonas’


  242. jonas’

    it needs an update, too

  243. jonas’

    I’m going ahead and deleting the past stuff

  244. Guus

    I'd love for the website to become more 'active' or 'community driven', or whatver

  245. jonas’

    unlikely to happen with the current framework

  246. jonas’

    we need to figure out why it doesn’t build correctly locally

  247. Guus

    jonas’ please do, but move them to the archive page.

  248. jonas’

    which archive pages

  249. jonas’

    which archive page?

  250. Guus

    see link in box below 'recent events' 🙂

  251. Guus

    what I typically do is move 'upcoming' to 'recent', and move the last few 'recents' to the archive.

  252. jonas’


  253. jonas’

    I’m incompetent sometimes

  254. jonas’

    also, doing like three things at the same time while having had way not enough sleep isn’t good for me

  255. jonas’


  256. Guus


  257. goffi

    oh cool, Evgeny message was a misunderstanding.

  258. Guus

    also, it might be good to mention that the bar for adding/modifying the website is a lot lower than some people might think. I invite everyone to suggest changes.

  259. jonas’

    Guus, does that look good to you? https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Main_Page

  260. Guus

    jonas’ sure, thanks.

  261. Guus

    it's no biggy either way

  262. jonas’

    regarding the website bar: it is non-trivial to test the website locally due to the strict version requirements on pelican

  263. jonas’

    not to mention that CSS changes require some (possibly web "standard", but still) npm installation stuff

  264. Guus

    right, it might currently be hard to apply a change, tehcnically, but I had a discussion last week where people where under the impression that only a few people get to decide what goes on the website

  265. jonas’

    effectively, only a few people do ;-)

  266. jonas’

    tohse with power over the uhge green merge button

  267. Guus

    right, but I'd _love_ to change that

  268. jonas’

    I don’t

  269. Guus

    sure, there are a few gatekeepers, but content-wise, I'd love it live more.

  270. jonas’


  271. Guus

    PRs are excellent

  272. Guus

    for this.

  273. jonas’


  274. pep.

    If a gate-keeper could merge or review my PR for the sprints that'd be great :)

  275. Guus

    pep. I actually added a comment 🙂

  276. jonas’

    I second Guus’ comment

  277. pep.

    heh, sure I can change that. So I'd reverse the order of the list as well right

  278. Guus

    (also, Seve , I'm painfully aware that there's still your PR to review)

  279. jonas’

    what’s blocking that?

  280. Guus

    my time.

  281. Guus

    or attention span

  282. Guus

    simply didn't get around to it.

  283. jonas’

    I mean, is this a content or a technical issue which needs to be reviewed?

  284. jonas’

    note that one cannot test the menu locally with current pelican versions as of now

  285. pep.

    Should I add dates in these lists?

  286. jonas’

    pep., dates would be good, especially for upcoming

  287. Guus

    pep. if you think it's helpful to interested people, yeah!

  288. jonas’

    try to answer where, when, and if possible, what

  289. Guus

    jonas’ I simply haven't taken the time to look at it yet.

  290. pep.

    What is usually a bit difficult, as it's discussed really close to the date

  291. pep.

    Except for Brussels maybe where it was said it would be about UX from the start

  292. Guus

    pep. do something like: "medio January"

  293. Guus

    "or Q1 2019"

  294. jonas’

    I sense a misunderstanding

  295. pep.


  296. Guus


  297. pep.

    Is it me or there's a lot of latin being used in this community? :P

  298. jonas’

    Guus, aren’t the sprint dates fixed?

  299. jonas’

    like, konwn

  300. jonas’

    like, known

  301. pep.

    They are

  302. jonas’


  303. pep.

    Well, at some point

  304. jonas’

    so I think that Guus misread your sentence "What is usually a bit difficult, as it's discussed really close to the date" (which I did too)

  305. pep.

    "What" is usually a bit difficult

  306. jonas’


  307. pep.

    https://bpaste.net/raw/57647708077f ?

  308. pep.

    Not sure how that will show

  309. Guus

    Aaah, I was under the impression that the final date was known only pretty close to the event.

  310. Guus

    so, a misunderstanding indeed. 🙂

  311. jonas’

    pep., so, yeah, exact dates please

  312. jonas’

    this was just confusion

  313. Guus

    pep, if you have actual dates (days), I'd use those.

  314. Guus

    yup, sorry for that.

  315. pep.

    hmm, brussels is two not consecutive days, in different months

  316. pep.

    That's going to be annoying

  317. Guus

    hehe, whatever works 🙂 I'll not twist your arm behind your back to have exact dates 🙂

  318. Guus

    I'm already very happy that this goes on the website in the first place

  319. pep.

    Thanks, I appreciate

  320. pep.

    I like my arm very much

  321. pep.

    I like my arm very much where it is

  322. jonas’

    pep., what

  323. jonas’

    I don’t get it

  324. jonas’

    if it’s two different events, it should get two entries

  325. jonas’

    so you can put exact dates on each?

  326. pep.

    It's the "same" event, just that the summit "appeared" in between :P

  327. jonas’

    sorry, I think I’m too tired to follow this

  328. pep.

    I think roel wanted to do two days, but asking people to be there tuesday _and_ wednesday was a bit too much, considering most of us are going to the summit and fosdem.

  329. pep.

    So they're going to do 30th (wed), and there's something that might happen on the 1st, at fosdem maybe, I don't know much

  330. jonas’

    I see

  331. Guus

    pep. just add wednesday, and note on the wiki page that there might be a follow-up after FOSDEM

  332. jonas’

    I’d just list "Jan 30th, Feb 1st, 2019 (around FOSDEM), Brussels" as link text

  333. pep.

    *At fosdem

  334. jonas’

    or just Jan 30th, that’d probably work too

  335. pep.


  336. Guus

    I'd be happy with any of the above. Go for it 🙂

  337. pep.

    Should I use british of usican on the website?

  338. pep.

    Should I use british or usican on the website?

  339. pep.


  340. jonas’

    so tired

  341. jonas’

    go for US when in doubt

  342. jonas’

    we use it in XEPs, too

  343. Guus

    use letters for months

  344. Guus

    and avoid confusion

  345. jonas’


  346. jonas’

    or ISO format, but words read better in the list

  347. pep.

    "March 30-31st, 2019." ?

  348. Guus

    I'd not use the year

  349. Guus

    maybe in the archive

  350. jonas’

    I’d add the year

  351. jonas’

    you can never be sure whether a website is kept up-to-date

  352. Guus

    but for the upcoming events, they should be sufficiently close

  353. pep.

    I would add the year as well, it can be confusing otherwise

  354. Guus shrugs.

  355. jonas’

    and when reading a list, it’s always good to see that right away

  356. pep.

    and yeah what jonas’ says

  357. jonas’

    pep., that format looks readable to me

  358. Guus is still not going to twist arms.

  359. jonas’

    I’m worried about the "still" :)

  360. pep.


  361. Guus

    got to keep the suspense goin' 🙂

  362. jonas’


  363. pep.


  364. Guus

    Was dwd going to write a text descirbing the summit?

  365. jonas’

    I’m not sure

  366. jonas’

    pep., "March" is now duplicated in the list item

  367. pep.

    Ah fail.

  368. jonas’

    I’d also probably have put it this way: * [Brussels, January 30th, 2019](...) (around FOSDEM)

  369. jonas’

    but that’s just my preference

  370. jonas’

    not going to twist arms, either

  371. pep.

    Please stop threatening my arms

  372. jonas’

    I am not threatening your (or anybodies) arms :)

  373. Guus

    time to get creative with the body parts?

  374. Guus takes out his trusty IRC-trout...

  375. pep.

    not the trout!

  376. jonas’


  377. jonas’

    (t)rusty, probably

  378. pep.

    here, pushed again

  379. jonas’

    also, isn’t trusty EOL ;-)

  380. Guus

    unrelated side note: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/497

  381. jonas’

    I like it now, Guus

  382. Guus

    this concerns me

  383. jonas’

    I like it now, pep.

  384. jonas’

    Guus, it concerns me, too

  385. jonas’

    board should definitely look into that

  386. jonas’

    I would’ve made a PR

  387. Guus

    push the button, jonas’ !

  388. jonas’

    but I’m not sure where we list sponsors, typically

  389. jonas’

    and how

  390. jonas’

    and such

  391. jonas’


  392. jonas’

    Guus, as board member, can you maybe comment that the Board will take this seriously?

  393. jonas’

    leaving this uncommented for 3 days is... a bit meh

  394. Guus

    you're right

  395. jonas’


  396. jonas’


  397. jonas’

    (I am tired and getting silly)

  398. pep.

    How long does the website take to build again?

  399. Guus


  400. jonas’

    Guus, no

  401. jonas’

    in total I think 10 - 15 minutes until it’s live

  402. pep.

    k, thanks

  403. Guus

    that's what I said.

  404. Guus


  405. jonas’

    Guus, you’re not an editor, obviously

  406. Guus


  407. jonas’

    that takes 60 minutes+

  408. Guus


  409. jonas’

    so ... the website is rather fast.

  410. jonas’

    we have a super-fancy banner on https://xmpp.org now :) thanks for the input :)

  411. pep.

    jonas’, we need the full package, incremental builds etc. :P

  412. pep.

    Or do you have that already

  413. jonas’


  414. jonas’

    then it would take like 5 minutes, not 60

  415. Guus

    well, while we're being effective: is there anything that we can do to speed https://github.com/xmpp-observatory along?

  416. jonas’

    somebody needs to figure out how to teach the involved DNS relsover libraries about the new root zone keys

  417. jonas’

    that’s the current remaining issue with xmpp.net

  418. pep.

    https://xmpp.org/community/events.html "Krakow (soon)", any idea when this "soon" is due for?

  419. jonas’

    (that I am aware of)

  420. jonas’

    pep., remove it

  421. jonas’

    (or maybe check the git-blame first)

  422. pep.

    Also same page, it references Summit 22

  423. Guus

    jonas’ I'm not even sure I understand what you said.

  424. jonas’

    pep., clean it, while you’re at it

  425. Guus

    pep. also, that's the link to last years' summit

  426. jonas’

    Guus, xmpp.net works, except for the issue that it cannot validate DNSSEC currently. So any zone which uses DNSSEC appears to be broken to it. This needs fixing.

  427. pep.

    Guus, yes

  428. Guus

    you can safely remove all events, they're from last year, at best.

  429. jonas’

    (it cannot validate DNSSEC because it uses the old keys for the root zone which have been exchanged recently in a surprisingly ostentatious ceremony)

  430. jonas’

    Guus, so somebody needs to teach the libraries which are baked into the xmppoke docker thing about the new keys

  431. Guus

    I don't know how DNS zone / key / ceremony works.

  432. jonas’

    it is fun

  433. Guus

    is this a configuration thingy, or a code change thingy?

  434. jonas’

    probably code change thingy

  435. jonas’

    because the keys are embedded in the library

  436. jonas’

    worst case one needs to patch the binary file

  437. pep.


  438. Guus

    pep, please remove all events

  439. Guus

    they're from 2017

  440. pep.


  441. Guus

    oh, actually

  442. Guus


  443. Guus

    the berlin one was from last december

  444. pep.

    The berlin meetup is ongoing

  445. pep.

    I mean it's recurring, rather

  446. Guus

    stockholm can be removed

  447. pep.

    FOSDEM can also be updated

  448. Guus

    london can be removed

  449. Guus

    and Paris is also outdated

  450. Guus

    so, only keep Berlin 🙂

  451. pep.


  452. Guus

    looks good. I'll let Travis do its thing, but am happy to merge

  453. Guus

    Thanks for doing all this guys!

  454. pep.

    goffi, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/FOSDEM_2019 do you mind adding your talk if you have time?

  455. pep.

    There's also JC in there

  456. pep.

    Dele I guess

  457. goffi

    pep.: yes I will, but probably tomorrow, start to be tired now

  458. pep.


  459. Guus

    jonas’ are you technically capable of doing the DNS zone magic that you just referred to, or should I direct my pretty-pleases at MattJ or others?

  460. goffi

    pep.: please ping me again if I haven't done tomorrow evening

  461. pep.


  462. MattJ

    Guus, direct at me

  463. MattJ

    But I have less than zero time at the moment

  464. Guus

    MattJ I have cherries-on-top to offer, to sweeten the deal.

  465. Guus


  466. Guus

    is there anyone else capable of doing this?

  467. Guus

    with zero+ time available, hopefully?

  468. pep.

    MattJ, does that mean Guus owes you time now

  469. pep.

    For asking

  470. MattJ

    It's just a matter of updating the Dockerfile to install a newer version of a dependency from a package that Zash already made

  471. Guus

    pep. I have a tab going with him 🙂

  472. MattJ

    and modifying it to stop using that dependency as a submodule which it currently compiles itself iirc

  473. Guus

    oh, I can do that, I think

  474. Guus

    MattJ / Zash can you identify said dependency, and the replacement package?

  475. Guus


  476. Guus

    (sounds DNSsie?)

  477. pep.


  478. pep.

    I mean, it is dnssie

  479. Guus

    I'm guestimating that this is the desired fix: https://code.zash.se/luaunbound/rev/3c3f017f35ac

  480. oli

    lovetox: why are you interested in XTLS? client-to-client as in Jingle or something else?

  481. lovetox

    yes jingle, but im not interested in it, Gajim already implements it

  482. lovetox

    im just wondering why it never made it experimental

  483. oli

    lovetox: encrypted jingle?

  484. oli

    ok, yes, it's in the code.

  485. Guus

    https://github.com/xmpp-observatory/xmppoke/pull/3 <-- incredibly naive copy/paste thingy

  486. Guus

    jonas’ how do I test this fix locally? I need to run against a zone with DNS SEC?

  487. Guus

    Hmm, I'm getting 'bogus dnssec' banners, which probably is an indication of failure. 😕

  488. MattJ

    Guus: yes, that's the bug

  489. MattJ

    Pretty sure I confirmed a fix in a temporary container where I installed the package manually

  490. Guus

    MattJ: im unsure what I'm doing. Locally, it didn't appear to work. Maybe I need to provide the commit message suggested trust file somehow.