XSF Discussion - 2019-01-07


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  219. goffi

    Hi. I don't get Evgeny answer, can anybody explain me how clustered database are affected by the fact that we use or not an attribute to specify level of ordering?

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  225. waqas

    goffi: Most distributed and replicated databases tend to be eventually consistent, such that one db node may have a different modification timestamp for an item than another node in the cluster.

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  229. waqas

    (mysql and postgres for example have async replication, they are ACID for a node, but not for the cluster; many nosql dbs are similar)

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  231. goffi

    waqas: so he's not actually answering to the question (which is about adding an attribute to handle the order vs using order of <order/> elements), but talking about the feature in general, and only arguing about the modification time right?

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  233. goffi

    And this sounds like implementation details, nothing prevent to add a field to the database which is set when the item is received, before any replication.

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  236. goffi

    "order by" is used in SQL which can be used with clusters, so I don't see how this is different here.

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  238. waqas

    goffi: Consistent order for a mutable ordering value like last-modified time (vs an "immutable one", like creation-time) really works in SQL dbs with a single node, or which have cluster-wide write locks.

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  240. waqas

    In mysql for example, a write to one db replica does may take some time before it's written to the rest of the cluster.

  241. waqas

    So different nodes in the cluster may have a different understanding of last-modified time at any given point in time

  242. waqas

    Pagination is tough as well. You request page 1. Then you request page 2, except page 1 results may already be invalid by the time you ask for page 2.

  243. waqas

    Since last modified order is changing all the time

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  245. waqas

    I don't want to speak for Evgeny, I'm just assuming the above is what he means.

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  247. Zash

    Database synchronization is hard.

  248. goffi

    waqas: pagination issue is already mentioned in RSM. I'm not against adding a flag in the result saying it may be inconsistent.

  249. jonas’

    goffi, no pagination is not covered with RSM as soon as you order by a mutable field

  250. jonas’

    well, it is covered

  251. jonas’

    but it’s not safe anymore

  252. goffi

    "The set of items that match a query MAY change over time, even during the time that a requesting entity pages through the result set (e.g., a set of chatrooms, since rooms can be created and destroyed at any time). The paging protocol outlined in this section is designed so that entities MAY provide the following features" (§2.2)

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  256. MattJ

    I'm confused by your one email which says " the order affect the whole archive, not just a result set" and in a following email "it's true that the order inside the page is not influenced."

  257. goffi

    waqas: thanks about the explanation. I think this should be mentioned in the XEP, and maybe a flag could be added.

  258. goffi

    MattJ: the first message was because yesterday it didn't seemed clear that the ordering was on the full history (i.e. we are not ordering the says 10 items we ask for, but we are ordering the whole archive and getting the 10 first items from that)

  259. MattJ

    Right

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  262. goffi

    Matthew: the second is because there is currently no mechanism to say, inside the page result we get, that we want the first item to be the most recent or the least recent. Currently the XEP state (not explictly enough apparently, I'll fix that), that the first item of the page is always the most recent, regarless if we are getting the result normally, or backward using RSM.

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  265. MattJ

    I'm personally leaning towards just having another field in the existing MAM query form, to keep things simple

  266. MattJ

    and then we can fix pubsub separately

  267. goffi

    waqas: by the way, the last modification time is currently the default ordering using XEP-0060 without anything else. There is actually no "modification" notion, it's just a new item, but that the result it the same.

  268. MattJ

    I think the problems are slightly different, because you can't update a MAM entry (and never will be able to)

  269. goffi

    MattJ: you mean extending XEP-0313 directly or havint a new XEP which extend MAM ?

  270. MattJ

    I was planning to extend XEP-0313

  271. Zash

    MattJ: Message corrections...

  272. MattJ

    and the problem with MAM isn't which property to sort on, it's simply which direction to sort in

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  274. MattJ

    The problem with pubsub is not the direction, but the property

  275. Kev

    > I think the problems are slightly different, because you can't update a MAM entry (and never will be able to) Not 100% true, because of redaction, but close enough.

  276. MattJ

    and another reason not to solve both with the same protocol, is that the server implementation for both of these is quite different

  277. goffi

    MattJ: what about MAM with Pubsub (which is the case I'm most interested in) ? The item can be overwritten there.

  278. MattJ

    Yet the order-by XEP only allows discovery of support for <order>, not within a specific protocol

  279. Ge0rG

    cant we just implement SQL replication over XMPP and be done?

  280. goffi

    I can fix that and only use is with MAM for Pubsub, it doesn't really make sense in the other case anyway.

  281. MattJ

    I don't know - I have nothing to do with MAM-with-pubsub, never have, and I'm still unconvinced whether I ever will

  282. goffi

    I think filtering should have been a pubsub thing instead of a MAM thing, but today it's the only tool we have to filter items in Pubsub.

  283. goffi

    and it's a really important feature for most of use cases I have with Pubsub.

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  285. goffi

    the MAM example in the order-by protoXEP is about Pubsub

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  288. MattJ

    if we add order reversal to MAM, interaction with order-by would get confusing if that also let you select asc/desc

  289. MattJ

    Otherwise, they could probably live together

  290. MattJ

    But I don't know if I can imagine implementing it personally

  291. MattJ

    Hmm

  292. MattJ

    Maybe I can, in the context of pubsub, but basically it would be a separate implementation

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  296. Zash

    PubSub in Prosody is squeezed through an abstract LRU cache, so that level would have to be thrown out and rebuilt

  297. MattJ

    goffi, does a config item on the pubsub node definitely not fulfil your requirements?

  298. MattJ

    (a config item that says "sort by update" or "sort by creation")

  299. Zash

    "keep order on ower-write"

  300. MattJ

    or do you need this control at the time of query?

  301. Zash

    There's no update in PubSub, only implicit deletion

  302. waqas

    I think the basic use-case being supported is just showing microblog posts by time they were first posted vs time when they were last modified. Last modified is current state, right?

  303. goffi

    MattJ: for some use cases I need to do it at query time. For instance for a forum, I want to be able to have last modified message popup on top, or have it by creation date.

  304. goffi

    Zash: no there is no update in Pubsub, that's why the "date of modification" is explained in the XEP, the business logic is changed.

  305. goffi

    waqas: last modified is current state yes.

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  309. ralphm

    The idea is to _add_ business logic so that overwriting implies updating, right?

  310. goffi

    ralphm: yes

  311. goffi

    But also to have a way, later, to order by a field for instance (e.g. prioriy of a ticket, or evaluation of an answer to a question).

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  485. dwd

    Hi folks.

  486. Ge0rG

    Hey dwd, back from holidays?

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  488. dwd

    Yeah, holidays plus family emergency, unfortunately.

  489. Ge0rG

    dwd: sorry to hear that. Hope things are normalizing again

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  491. dwd

    So I have an interesting problem with the XMPP Summit, and I wondered if anyone else had the same issue.

  492. dwd

    My new boss said he looked at the details for the XMPP Summit, and concluded it wasn't happening because there was nothing on the website and wiki page.

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  494. jonas’

    the wiki page doesn’t look exactly empty tom e?

  495. Guus

    dwd - I am happy to facilitate later tonight

  496. Guus

    I'm about on my way back home, which will take some time.

  497. Guus

    In the mean time, if someone feels like drafting a blog post... 🙂

  498. jonas’

    we do have a blog post, don’t we?

  499. dwd

    jonas’, The Agenda is empty, for instance.

  500. jonas’

    https://xmpp.org/2018/11/xmpp-summit-23/

  501. dwd

    jonas’, And the blog post *is* there, but several articles down and not easily visible from the website.

  502. jonas’

    (that’s true, which is why I didn’t link it in the first place)

  503. Guus

    so, some kind of banner on the home page?

  504. jonas’

    the summit is members-only, isn’t it?

  505. Ge0rG

    maybe linking the blog post from the wiki would be a start?

  506. Zash

    pin it

  507. dwd

    jonas’, Not as far as I know.

  508. Guus

    ok, I need to go now

  509. dwd

    Guus, I'll catch you later...

  510. jonas’

    dwd, if what you say is true, a banner on the website would make sense, indeed

  511. Guus

    but I would welcome more exposure

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  513. jonas’

    I can probably draft some HTML for a b anner on the website, but someone will have to do the design fine-tuning

  514. Ge0rG

    jonas’: what about a box of upcoming events?

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  516. jonas’

    Ge0rG, complexity

  517. jonas’

    I want this simple now

  518. Ge0rG

    it could be on the wiki as well, and feature elections and the like

  519. Ge0rG

    speaking of which... there is still no election page for Q1

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  521. Guus

    > I can probably draft some HTML for a b anner on the website, but someone will have to do the design fine-tuning 💓

  522. jonas’

    that’s a nice box you got there

  523. dwd

    jonas’, The problem isn't just a banner. The problem is that if it weren't for my insisting it's really A Thing, my manager wouldn't have believed it's a real event.

  524. jonas’

    dwd, yes, I see your point

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  526. jonas’

    however, the banner is something I can do, and which I realised when browsing $anotherOrgs page recently that it is something the XSF lacks

  527. Guus

    The banner, linking to a Thing-definion

  528. Ge0rG

    dwd: isn't that kind of symptomatic for XSF events?

  529. jonas’

    (announcing the event loudly on the main page)

  530. Zash

    SCAM needs a bigger marketing budget?

  531. dwd

    Ge0rG, Yes.

  532. dwd

    But here's the thing - right now, XMPP jobs, whilst relatively few, are very highly paid. There seems to be a lot of XMPP about, in some well-resourced areas. We should be getting really good attendence.

  533. dwd

    So I'm wondering if the reason we're not is because it's not seen as a normal corporate-friendly event.

  534. jonas’

    Cobol jobs have the same classification

  535. jonas’

    dwd, for starters, from my perception, summit was members-only

  536. jonas’

    we’re not really advertising it to non-members

  537. dwd

    jonas’, No, and that can't be a good thing.

  538. Ge0rG

    from my perception, Summit is heavily biased to new protocol design, which is not typically something for newcomers

  539. dwd

    jonas’, The Dinner *is* members-only, though we've rarely enforced that.

  540. Ge0rG

    The one time I attended The Dinner, I wasn't a member.

  541. dwd

    Ge0rG, Yes, but we had an interesting session abotu where XMPP was used last time, which was really fascinating to me.

  542. Zash

    Members +1 ish?

  543. dwd

    Zash, Roughly.

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  547. dwd

    But I wonder if we could [re-]introduce talks and other things that look a little more conference-y. We've done so before, but I think that making the Summit look a little more professional (ie, corporate) would help people expense travel to it, and therefore attend.

  548. jonas’

    seems legit

  549. Ge0rG

    dwd: that sounds like a great idea. Maybe have one day of talks and one day of workshops?

  550. Ge0rG

    Even just calling what we do every year "workshops" will already make it more enterprisey

  551. jonas’

    not that I consider myself to have a chance to attend on company budget, considering that we’re so not XMPP

  552. Zash

    That sounds fine

  553. Guus

    Let's add this to the agenda of the upcoming summit?

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  555. Guus

    Also, I would not mind having more than one per year

  556. Ge0rG

    there used to be two, across the pond

  557. Guus

    We're we could differentiate

  558. dwd

    Ge0rG, I was thinking just an afternoon to start with, but yes.

  559. jjrh has left

  560. Guus

    dwd: would you mind drafting a semi static summit event description for on the website?

  561. Ge0rG

    dwd: an afternoon of talks? Sure

  562. Guus

    We can have jonas’ banner link to it

  563. Guus

    There's a start.

  564. Zash

    There's these sprint things

  565. dwd

    Guus, I'll scribble some text.

  566. dwd

    Zash, You mean the hackathon type things? The IETF seems to get people to come to those.

  567. Guus

    Then add the sprint thing (cc pep. )

  568. jonas’

    ohmygod

  569. jonas’

    `npm i` then run `grunt` to compile Sass.

  570. jonas’

    why

  571. jonas’

    I take my "I can do a banner" back

  572. Guus

    Ok, I'm starting my car engine, afk.

  573. Zash

    dwd: something something ask pep.

  574. 404.city has joined

  575. dwd

    jonas’, This is why I said I would "scribble some text".

  576. Zash

    jonas’: what in the what and also why?

  577. frainz has left

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  579. pep.

    !

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  585. jonas’

    https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/498 dwd, Guus

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  591. Kev

    I think running a Real Conference for XMPP might be a good idea.

  592. Ge0rG

    Yes, and that doesn't need to be the Summit

  593. Zash

    Doit

  594. dwd

    Kev, I agree, but I think adapting the Summit to increase engagement probably gives the most overall benefit.

  595. Kev

    I don't think "We've got a room in the Cisco offices for a couple of days" is really it, though. What we do is perfect (well, YKWIM) for what we get out of it, which is advancing the state of XMPP with technical discussions, but a long way off being appealing as a Conference.

  596. Kev

    Which isn't to say we couldn't do a thing instead of the Summit (in it's usual form) instead, at the same time

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  599. dwd

    Well, if we re-cast the bulk of the Summit as being "workshops" and "open panels", it might work, but I take your point.

  600. dwd nips off to pick up son.

  601. Kev

    It might, but I don't think one room at Cisco is what we need for this.

  602. Kev

    There's nothing stopping us doing a Conference and having protocol advancement sessions, either.

  603. jonas’

    except manpower

  604. Kev

    But probably not all of it, and I think it needs more prior organisation than a Summit.

  605. Ge0rG

    Those are separate goals - make Summit look more enterprisey while keeping the content / make a conference appealing to commercial xmpp users

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  609. Kev

    There's "Try to make the Summit easy to expense for the usual sort of crowd" and "draw more people to the Summit"

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  620. Erkan Files

    > There's "Try to make the Summit easy to expense for the usual sort of crowd" and "draw more people to the Summit" Does that mean that newbies should be able to participate and understand most of the "things" there?

  621. Zash

    Depends on what kind of newbie

  622. frainz has joined

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  624. Erkan Files

    Like me

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  627. ralphm

    So usually there is a bunch of discussion on protocol, like the last few times with MIX.

  628. ralphm

    Some of those can be really indepth, some not so.

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  631. Zash

    What kind of participant would such an event aim for?

  632. ralphm

    So it depends on whether newbie means: “I haven't been around for long”, or “I don't know much about the protocols”

  633. ralphm

    I also want to note that we potentially have more rooms this year. Rudy (of Cisco) wrote: “I did in the meanwhile book the rooms Cassiopea and Electra (can be combined to a single larger, wider space) as well as the adjacent room Centaurus which you could use as a break room for speakers, organisers, logistics, ….”

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  641. Erkan Files

    ralphm: Where is Cisco located

  642. ralphm

    Diegem

  643. ralphm

    https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_23

  644. Zash

    https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/29455013

  645. Erkan Files

    > So it depends on whether newbie means: “I haven't been around for long”, or “I don't know much about the protocols” I dont know much about the protocolls. My fear is that just the time and this MUC arent enough to get out of this kind of newbie status...

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  659. lovetox

    what about https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/jingle-xtls.html

  660. lovetox

    how long does stuff stay in the inbox?

  661. lovetox

    forever?

  662. Zash

    until the end of time

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  665. Neustradamus

    mrDoctorWho

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  689. jonas’

    lovetox, it’s never deleted

  690. pep.

    https://dpaste.de/BjkD/raw something like that for sprints would do? thoughts?

  691. pep.

    I'll send a patch

  692. labdsf has left

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  695. ralphm

    Sure!

  696. pep.

    https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/499

  697. j.r has joined

  698. Guus

    I'm back home

  699. Guus

    Thanks for all of the ideas, people

  700. jonas’

    wb

  701. Guus

    I'd suggest keeping the summit pretty much as-is, and have another, more conferency, event, at another date.

  702. Guus

    I simply like the summit format - it has its own value.

  703. jonas’

    I tend to agree, even though I only participated remotely

  704. Guus

    side note: the Cisco offices are not publicly accessible.

  705. jonas’

    (I’ll have to figure out how to do that this year :/)

  706. Guus

    for a conferency-type of deal, we might want to consider using a different venue

  707. jonas’

    agreed

  708. Zash has left

  709. pep.

    I'm all for this new idea :)

  710. pep.

    well, maybe not new idea

  711. pep.

    But I want to see it implemented

  712. Guus

    In any case, I'd suggest to not deviate to much from the Summit format for the upcoming event - as it's close, I'd like to avoid confusion.

  713. jonas’

    very much +1

  714. pep.

    Sure

  715. jonas’

    btw, I’m happy to hack in more crappy inline CSS to make this fancier: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/498

  716. jonas’

    but I’m at the limits of my creativity

  717. jonas’

    so if anyone provides a mockup, I’m happy to try to achieve that

  718. Guus

    jonas’ it looks great to me - although I'd prefer a flashy / contrasting color, to pull in attention

  719. pep.

    nit: can this be vcentered?

  720. pep.

    the text inside the box

  721. Guus

    and cente....whathesaid

  722. jonas’

    centering is trivial (and you probably mean hcenter)

  723. pep.

    I mean vcenter

  724. jonas’

    please suggest colors, I’m really bad at picking those

  725. jonas’

    pep., oh, you’re right

  726. Guus

    reddish or yellowish

  727. jonas’

    Guus, I guessed that much

  728. Guus

    I actually ment vcenter 🙂

  729. jonas’

    the details are the tricky part

  730. pep.

    vcentering was still one of the fun things to do when ran away from "the web"

  731. jonas’

    in this case, I just had to kill the margin-bottom of the p which holds the text

  732. Guus

    jonas’ we use this blue for active menus: maybe that'd work: #008CBA

  733. jonas’

    makes the link unreadable obviously

  734. jonas’

    I could make the entire thing clickable though

  735. jonas’

    which would do the trick

  736. Guus

    yeah, I suck at this more than you do 😃

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  739. jonas’

    https://sotecware.net/images/dont-puush-me/OSJcUNBVjbMmS8ipFMSXmQUiLGu7U6qA7XjNO1t-3lQ.png

  740. jonas’

    I think this is fair

  741. genofire has joined

  742. pep.

    LGTM

  743. goffi has joined

  744. jonas’

    updated the PR: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/498

  745. Guus

  746. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  747. goffi

    If I get it well, I find this comment deeply depressing: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18847472

  748. goffi

    Telehash is a project from Jeremie Miller right?

  749. Guus

    well, it's an answer to a direct question on the status of telehash: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18827032

  750. Guus

    so it's not an unsolicited "by the way, look at this" type of comment.

  751. goffi

    Guus: yes, and it's coming from the Telehash core team apparently.

  752. goffi

    Guus: no that's not my point, my point is that Telehash, a project founded by Jeremie Miller, creator of Jabber, is using Slack to communicate.

  753. jonas’

    looking at the screenshot after a while, this looks *so* much more alive now

  754. jonas’

    with the upcoming event and all

  755. jonas’

    we should be doing this for all our upcoming events

  756. Guus

    @jonas` definitely.

  757. jonas’

    I wonder whether we can somehow integrate this with the blog, so that we don’t have to micro-manage tihs, but I don’t think that’s easy

  758. pep.

    jonas’, sprints and all?

  759. jonas’

    yes

  760. goffi

    yes the banner looks nice.

  761. Guus

    i'd love to replace that top-right wiki thing

  762. jonas’

    top-right wiki thing?

  763. fippo

    goffi: temas was one of the folks running jabberstudio.org back in the early days :-|

  764. goffi

    fippo: that's even more depressing :(

  765. Guus

    jonas’ https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Main_Page, top right, "upcoming events"

  766. jonas’

    ahh

  767. jonas’

    it needs an update, too

  768. jonas’

    I’m going ahead and deleting the past stuff

  769. Guus

    I'd love for the website to become more 'active' or 'community driven', or whatver

  770. jonas’

    unlikely to happen with the current framework

  771. jonas’

    we need to figure out why it doesn’t build correctly locally

  772. Guus

    jonas’ please do, but move them to the archive page.

  773. jonas’

    which archive pages

  774. jonas’

    which archive page?

  775. Guus

    see link in box below 'recent events' 🙂

  776. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  777. Guus

    what I typically do is move 'upcoming' to 'recent', and move the last few 'recents' to the archive.

  778. Zash has left

  779. jonas’

    ugh

  780. jonas’

    I’m incompetent sometimes

  781. jonas’

    also, doing like three things at the same time while having had way not enough sleep isn’t good for me

  782. jonas’

    fixing

  783. Guus

    hehe

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  786. goffi

    oh cool, Evgeny message was a misunderstanding.

  787. Guus

    also, it might be good to mention that the bar for adding/modifying the website is a lot lower than some people might think. I invite everyone to suggest changes.

  788. jonas’

    Guus, does that look good to you? https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Main_Page

  789. Guus

    jonas’ sure, thanks.

  790. Guus

    it's no biggy either way

  791. jonas’

    regarding the website bar: it is non-trivial to test the website locally due to the strict version requirements on pelican

  792. jonas’

    not to mention that CSS changes require some (possibly web "standard", but still) npm installation stuff

  793. Guus

    right, it might currently be hard to apply a change, tehcnically, but I had a discussion last week where people where under the impression that only a few people get to decide what goes on the website

  794. jonas’

    effectively, only a few people do ;-)

  795. jonas’

    tohse with power over the uhge green merge button

  796. Guus

    right, but I'd _love_ to change that

  797. jonas’

    I don’t

  798. Guus

    sure, there are a few gatekeepers, but content-wise, I'd love it live more.

  799. jonas’

    yes

  800. Guus

    PRs are excellent

  801. Guus

    for this.

  802. jonas’

    yes

  803. pep.

    If a gate-keeper could merge or review my PR for the sprints that'd be great :)

  804. Guus

    pep. I actually added a comment 🙂

  805. jonas’

    I second Guus’ comment

  806. pep.

    heh, sure I can change that. So I'd reverse the order of the list as well right

  807. Guus

    (also, Seve , I'm painfully aware that there's still your PR to review)

  808. jonas’

    what’s blocking that?

  809. Guus

    my time.

  810. Guus

    or attention span

  811. Guus

    simply didn't get around to it.

  812. jonas’

    I mean, is this a content or a technical issue which needs to be reviewed?

  813. jonas’

    note that one cannot test the menu locally with current pelican versions as of now

  814. pep.

    Should I add dates in these lists?

  815. jonas’

    pep., dates would be good, especially for upcoming

  816. Guus

    pep. if you think it's helpful to interested people, yeah!

  817. jonas’

    try to answer where, when, and if possible, what

  818. Guus

    jonas’ I simply haven't taken the time to look at it yet.

  819. pep.

    What is usually a bit difficult, as it's discussed really close to the date

  820. pep.

    Except for Brussels maybe where it was said it would be about UX from the start

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  823. Guus

    pep. do something like: "medio January"

  824. waqas has joined

  825. Guus

    "or Q1 2019"

  826. jonas’

    I sense a misunderstanding

  827. pep.

    hmm?

  828. Guus

    misunderstanding?

  829. pep.

    Is it me or there's a lot of latin being used in this community? :P

  830. jonas’

    Guus, aren’t the sprint dates fixed?

  831. jonas’

    like, konwn

  832. jonas’

    like, known

  833. pep.

    They are

  834. jonas’

    goddamnit

  835. pep.

    Well, at some point

  836. jonas’

    so I think that Guus misread your sentence "What is usually a bit difficult, as it's discussed really close to the date" (which I did too)

  837. pep.

    "What" is usually a bit difficult

  838. jonas’

    yeah

  839. jjrh has left

  840. pep.

    https://bpaste.net/raw/57647708077f ?

  841. pep.

    Not sure how that will show

  842. Guus

    Aaah, I was under the impression that the final date was known only pretty close to the event.

  843. Guus

    so, a misunderstanding indeed. 🙂

  844. jonas’

    pep., so, yeah, exact dates please

  845. jonas’

    this was just confusion

  846. Guus

    pep, if you have actual dates (days), I'd use those.

  847. Guus

    yup, sorry for that.

  848. pep.

    hmm, brussels is two not consecutive days, in different months

  849. pep.

    That's going to be annoying

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  852. Guus

    hehe, whatever works 🙂 I'll not twist your arm behind your back to have exact dates 🙂

  853. Guus

    I'm already very happy that this goes on the website in the first place

  854. pep.

    Thanks, I appreciate

  855. pep.

    I like my arm very much

  856. pep.

    I like my arm very much where it is

  857. jonas’

    pep., what

  858. jonas’

    I don’t get it

  859. jonas’

    if it’s two different events, it should get two entries

  860. jonas’

    so you can put exact dates on each?

  861. pep.

    It's the "same" event, just that the summit "appeared" in between :P

  862. jonas’

    sorry, I think I’m too tired to follow this

  863. pep.

    I think roel wanted to do two days, but asking people to be there tuesday _and_ wednesday was a bit too much, considering most of us are going to the summit and fosdem.

  864. pep.

    So they're going to do 30th (wed), and there's something that might happen on the 1st, at fosdem maybe, I don't know much

  865. jonas’

    I see

  866. Guus

    pep. just add wednesday, and note on the wiki page that there might be a follow-up after FOSDEM

  867. jonas’

    I’d just list "Jan 30th, Feb 1st, 2019 (around FOSDEM), Brussels" as link text

  868. pep.

    *At fosdem

  869. jonas’

    or just Jan 30th, that’d probably work too

  870. pep.

    yeah

  871. Guus

    I'd be happy with any of the above. Go for it 🙂

  872. pep.

    Should I use british of usican on the website?

  873. pep.

    Should I use british or usican on the website?

  874. pep.

    (tired)

  875. jonas’

    so tired

  876. jonas’

    go for US when in doubt

  877. igoose has left

  878. jonas’

    we use it in XEPs, too

  879. igoose has joined

  880. Guus

    use letters for months

  881. Guus

    and avoid confusion

  882. jonas’

    yeah

  883. jonas’

    or ISO format, but words read better in the list

  884. pep.

    "March 30-31st, 2019." ?

  885. Guus

    I'd not use the year

  886. Guus

    maybe in the archive

  887. jonas’

    I’d add the year

  888. jonas’

    you can never be sure whether a website is kept up-to-date

  889. Guus

    but for the upcoming events, they should be sufficiently close

  890. pep.

    I would add the year as well, it can be confusing otherwise

  891. Guus shrugs.

  892. jonas’

    and when reading a list, it’s always good to see that right away

  893. pep.

    and yeah what jonas’ says

  894. jonas’

    pep., that format looks readable to me

  895. Guus is still not going to twist arms.

  896. jonas’

    I’m worried about the "still" :)

  897. pep.

    :D

  898. Guus

    got to keep the suspense goin' 🙂

  899. jonas’

    :D

  900. pep.

    https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/499

  901. Guus

    Was dwd going to write a text descirbing the summit?

  902. jonas’

    I’m not sure

  903. jonas’

    pep., "March" is now duplicated in the list item

  904. pep.

    Ah fail.

  905. jonas’

    I’d also probably have put it this way: * [Brussels, January 30th, 2019](...) (around FOSDEM)

  906. jonas’

    but that’s just my preference

  907. jonas’

    not going to twist arms, either

  908. pep.

    Please stop threatening my arms

  909. jonas’

    I am not threatening your (or anybodies) arms :)

  910. Guus

    time to get creative with the body parts?

  911. Guus takes out his trusty IRC-trout...

  912. pep.

    not the trout!

  913. jonas’

    :D

  914. jonas’

    (t)rusty, probably

  915. pep.

    here, pushed again

  916. jonas’

    also, isn’t trusty EOL ;-)

  917. Guus

    unrelated side note: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/497

  918. jonas’

    I like it now, Guus

  919. Guus

    this concerns me

  920. jonas’

    I like it now, pep.

  921. jonas’

    Guus, it concerns me, too

  922. jonas’

    board should definitely look into that

  923. jonas’

    I would’ve made a PR

  924. Guus

    push the button, jonas’ !

  925. jonas’

    but I’m not sure where we list sponsors, typically

  926. jonas’

    and how

  927. jonas’

    and such

  928. jonas’

    youknow

  929. neshtaxmpp has joined

  930. jonas’

    Guus, as board member, can you maybe comment that the Board will take this seriously?

  931. jonas’

    leaving this uncommented for 3 days is... a bit meh

  932. Guus

    you're right

  933. jonas’

    I HIT THE BUTTON

  934. jonas’

    :)

  935. jonas’

    (I am tired and getting silly)

  936. pep.

    How long does the website take to build again?

  937. Guus

    ages.

  938. jonas’

    Guus, no

  939. jonas’

    in total I think 10 - 15 minutes until it’s live

  940. pep.

    k, thanks

  941. Guus

    that's what I said.

  942. Guus

    🙂

  943. jonas’

    Guus, you’re not an editor, obviously

  944. Guus

    hahaha

  945. jonas’

    that takes 60 minutes+

  946. Guus

    touche

  947. jonas’

    so ... the website is rather fast.

  948. Erkan Files has left

  949. jonas’

    we have a super-fancy banner on https://xmpp.org now :) thanks for the input :)

  950. pep.

    jonas’, we need the full package, incremental builds etc. :P

  951. pep.

    Or do you have that already

  952. jonas’

    no.

  953. jonas’

    then it would take like 5 minutes, not 60

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  957. Guus

    well, while we're being effective: is there anything that we can do to speed https://github.com/xmpp-observatory along?

  958. jonas’

    somebody needs to figure out how to teach the involved DNS relsover libraries about the new root zone keys

  959. jonas’

    that’s the current remaining issue with xmpp.net

  960. pep.

    https://xmpp.org/community/events.html "Krakow (soon)", any idea when this "soon" is due for?

  961. jonas’

    (that I am aware of)

  962. jonas’

    pep., remove it

  963. jonas’

    (or maybe check the git-blame first)

  964. pep.

    Also same page, it references Summit 22

  965. Guus

    jonas’ I'm not even sure I understand what you said.

  966. jonas’

    pep., clean it, while you’re at it

  967. Guus

    pep. also, that's the link to last years' summit

  968. jonas’

    Guus, xmpp.net works, except for the issue that it cannot validate DNSSEC currently. So any zone which uses DNSSEC appears to be broken to it. This needs fixing.

  969. pep.

    Guus, yes

  970. Guus

    you can safely remove all events, they're from last year, at best.

  971. jonas’

    (it cannot validate DNSSEC because it uses the old keys for the root zone which have been exchanged recently in a surprisingly ostentatious ceremony)

  972. jonas’

    Guus, so somebody needs to teach the libraries which are baked into the xmppoke docker thing about the new keys

  973. Guus

    I don't know how DNS zone / key / ceremony works.

  974. jonas’

    it is fun

  975. Guus

    is this a configuration thingy, or a code change thingy?

  976. jonas’

    probably code change thingy

  977. jonas’

    because the keys are embedded in the library

  978. jonas’

    worst case one needs to patch the binary file

  979. pep.

    https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/500

  980. Guus

    pep, please remove all events

  981. Guus

    they're from 2017

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  983. pep.

    oh

  984. Guus

    oh, actually

  985. Guus

    no

  986. Guus

    the berlin one was from last december

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  988. pep.

    The berlin meetup is ongoing

  989. pep.

    I mean it's recurring, rather

  990. Guus

    stockholm can be removed

  991. pep.

    FOSDEM can also be updated

  992. Guus

    london can be removed

  993. Guus

    and Paris is also outdated

  994. Guus

    so, only keep Berlin 🙂

  995. pep.

    pushed

  996. Guus

    looks good. I'll let Travis do its thing, but am happy to merge

  997. Guus

    Thanks for doing all this guys!

  998. pep.

    goffi, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/FOSDEM_2019 do you mind adding your talk if you have time?

  999. pep.

    There's also JC in there

  1000. pep.

    Dele I guess

  1001. goffi

    pep.: yes I will, but probably tomorrow, start to be tired now

  1002. pep.

    thanks

  1003. Guus

    jonas’ are you technically capable of doing the DNS zone magic that you just referred to, or should I direct my pretty-pleases at MattJ or others?

  1004. goffi

    pep.: please ping me again if I haven't done tomorrow evening

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  1006. pep.

    k

  1007. MattJ

    Guus, direct at me

  1008. MattJ

    But I have less than zero time at the moment

  1009. Guus

    MattJ I have cherries-on-top to offer, to sweeten the deal.

  1010. Guus

    ah

  1011. Guus

    is there anyone else capable of doing this?

  1012. Guus

    with zero+ time available, hopefully?

  1013. pep.

    MattJ, does that mean Guus owes you time now

  1014. pep.

    For asking

  1015. MattJ

    It's just a matter of updating the Dockerfile to install a newer version of a dependency from a package that Zash already made

  1016. Guus

    pep. I have a tab going with him 🙂

  1017. MattJ

    and modifying it to stop using that dependency as a submodule which it currently compiles itself iirc

  1018. Guus

    oh, I can do that, I think

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  1025. Guus

    MattJ / Zash can you identify said dependency, and the replacement package?

  1026. Guus

    luaunbound?

  1027. Guus

    (sounds DNSsie?)

  1028. pep.

    yes

  1029. pep.

    I mean, it is dnssie

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  1032. Guus

    I'm guestimating that this is the desired fix: https://code.zash.se/luaunbound/rev/3c3f017f35ac

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  1035. oli

    lovetox: why are you interested in XTLS? client-to-client as in Jingle or something else?

  1036. lovetox

    yes jingle, but im not interested in it, Gajim already implements it

  1037. lovetox

    im just wondering why it never made it experimental

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  1042. oli

    lovetox: encrypted jingle?

  1043. oli

    ok, yes, it's in the code.

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  1045. Guus

    https://github.com/xmpp-observatory/xmppoke/pull/3 <-- incredibly naive copy/paste thingy

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  1050. Guus

    jonas’ how do I test this fix locally? I need to run against a zone with DNS SEC?

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  1053. Guus

    Hmm, I'm getting 'bogus dnssec' banners, which probably is an indication of failure. 😕

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  1072. MattJ

    Guus: yes, that's the bug

  1073. MattJ

    Pretty sure I confirmed a fix in a temporary container where I installed the package manually

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  1078. Guus

    MattJ: im unsure what I'm doing. Locally, it didn't appear to work. Maybe I need to provide the commit message suggested trust file somehow.

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