XSF Discussion - 2019-01-07

  1. vaulor has left

  2. mightyBroccoli has joined

  3. vaulor has joined

  4. mightyBroccoli has joined

  5. igoose has left

  6. Guus has left

  7. Guus has joined

  8. l has left

  9. l has left

  10. Guus has left

  11. lskdjf has joined

  12. oli has joined

  13. Maranda has left

  14. Guus has joined

  15. UsL has left

  16. UsL has joined

  17. lskdjf has joined

  18. thorsten has joined

  19. lskdjf has joined

  20. lskdjf has left

  21. lskdjf has left

  22. oli has joined

  23. lskdjf has left

  24. lskdjf has left

  25. lskdjf has left

  26. lskdjf has joined

  27. Tobias has joined

  28. Tobias has joined

  29. Syndace has left

  30. thorsten has left

  31. thorsten has joined

  32. Syndace has joined

  33. lskdjf has left

  34. lskdjf has joined

  35. Lance has joined

  36. Lance has left

  37. Guus has left

  38. Guus has joined

  39. Half-ShotX has left

  40. Guus has left

  41. krauq has left

  42. Guus has joined

  43. lumi has left

  44. alacer has joined

  45. lskdjf has joined

  46. l has joined

  47. alacer has left

  48. alacer has joined

  49. Half-ShotX has left

  50. waqas has left

  51. Guus has left

  52. Guus has joined

  53. efrit has joined

  54. Guus has left

  55. alacer has left

  56. alacer has joined

  57. Half-ShotX has left

  58. Half-ShotX has left

  59. Guus has joined

  60. Half-ShotX has left

  61. ta has left

  62. Guus has left

  63. Guus has joined

  64. Guus has left

  65. Half-ShotX has left

  66. ta has left

  67. Half-ShotX has left

  68. Half-ShotX has left

  69. Half-ShotX has left

  70. alacer has left

  71. alacer has joined

  72. daniel has joined

  73. Half-ShotX has left

  74. alacer has left

  75. alacer has joined

  76. Guus has joined

  77. moparisthebest has left

  78. moparisthebest has joined

  79. Half-ShotX has left

  80. Guus has left

  81. Guus has joined

  82. Guus has left

  83. Half-ShotX has left

  84. Half-ShotX has left

  85. Half-ShotX has left

  86. efrit has left

  87. Half-ShotX has left

  88. waqas has joined

  89. Half-ShotX has left

  90. alacer has left

  91. Half-ShotX has left

  92. Erkan Files has joined

  93. j.r has joined

  94. j.r has left

  95. mimi89999 has left

  96. mimi89999 has joined

  97. Half-ShotX has left

  98. alacer has joined

  99. j.r has joined

  100. Half-ShotX has left

  101. lorddavidiii has joined

  102. steven has left

  103. krauq has joined

  104. mtavares has joined

  105. Half-ShotX has left

  106. goffi has joined

  107. goffi has left

  108. goffi has joined

  109. labdsf has left

  110. Zash has left

  111. j.r has joined

  112. Zash has joined

  113. labdsf has joined

  114. mtavares has left

  115. mtavares has joined

  116. labdsf has left

  117. labdsf has joined

  118. Guus has joined

  119. Guus has left

  120. j.r has joined

  121. MattJ has left

  122. Half-ShotX has left

  123. Yagiza has joined

  124. andy has joined

  125. ta has left

  126. ta has joined

  127. lumi has joined

  128. andy has left

  129. andy has joined

  130. labdsf has left

  131. labdsf has joined

  132. j.r has joined

  133. andy has left

  134. andy has joined

  135. Half-ShotX has left

  136. !xsf_Martin has joined

  137. Half-ShotX has left

  138. mrDoctorWho has joined

  139. !xsf_Martin has left

  140. thorsten has joined

  141. Guus has joined

  142. Maranda has joined

  143. Erkan Files has joined

  144. Guus has left

  145. Guus has joined

  146. Erkan Files has joined

  147. Maranda has left

  148. Maranda has joined

  149. Erkan Files has left

  150. Erkan Files has joined

  151. Guus has left

  152. thorsten has left

  153. lumi has left

  154. mtavares has left

  155. Seve has left

  156. thorsten has joined

  157. Half-ShotX has left

  158. Steve Kille has left

  159. mtavares has joined

  160. lnj has joined

  161. krauq has joined

  162. oli has joined

  163. alacer has left

  164. alacer has joined

  165. Half-ShotX has left

  166. alacer has left

  167. vaulor has joined

  168. vaulor has joined

  169. labdsf has left

  170. labdsf has joined

  171. mtavares has joined

  172. Steve Kille has joined

  173. Guus has joined

  174. mtavares has joined

  175. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  176. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  177. Guus has left

  178. Guus has joined

  179. oli has left

  180. oli has joined

  181. Half-ShotX has left

  182. lumi has joined

  183. Half-ShotX has left

  184. lnj has left

  185. Nekit has joined

  186. Guus has left

  187. lovetox has joined

  188. Half-ShotX has left

  189. Half-ShotX has left

  190. goffi has joined

  191. Half-ShotX has left

  192. Half-ShotX has joined

  193. Maranda has left

  194. Half-ShotX has left

  195. genofire has left

  196. Half-ShotX has joined

  197. l has joined

  198. Half-ShotX has left

  199. labdsf has left

  200. mtavares has joined

  201. mtavares has joined

  202. Guus has joined

  203. labdsf has joined

  204. moparisthebest has joined

  205. moparisthebest has joined

  206. Half-ShotX has joined

  207. krauq has joined

  208. goffi has joined

  209. Half-ShotX has left

  210. igoose has joined

  211. ThibG has left

  212. ThibG has joined

  213. Half-ShotX has joined

  214. lorddavidiii has left

  215. Guus has joined

  216. Guus has joined

  217. nyco has joined

  218. lorddavidiii has joined

  219. goffi

    Hi. I don't get Evgeny answer, can anybody explain me how clustered database are affected by the fact that we use or not an attribute to specify level of ordering?

  220. thorsten has left

  221. thorsten has joined

  222. Half-ShotX has left

  223. igoose has left

  224. lskdjf has joined

  225. waqas

    goffi: Most distributed and replicated databases tend to be eventually consistent, such that one db node may have a different modification timestamp for an item than another node in the cluster.

  226. Half-ShotX has joined

  227. moparisthebest has joined

  228. moparisthebest has joined

  229. waqas

    (mysql and postgres for example have async replication, they are ACID for a node, but not for the cluster; many nosql dbs are similar)

  230. Alex has joined

  231. goffi

    waqas: so he's not actually answering to the question (which is about adding an attribute to handle the order vs using order of <order/> elements), but talking about the feature in general, and only arguing about the modification time right?

  232. lnj has joined

  233. goffi

    And this sounds like implementation details, nothing prevent to add a field to the database which is set when the item is received, before any replication.

  234. Half-ShotX has left

  235. Half-ShotX has joined

  236. goffi

    "order by" is used in SQL which can be used with clusters, so I don't see how this is different here.

  237. Alex has left

  238. waqas

    goffi: Consistent order for a mutable ordering value like last-modified time (vs an "immutable one", like creation-time) really works in SQL dbs with a single node, or which have cluster-wide write locks.

  239. nyco has left

  240. waqas

    In mysql for example, a write to one db replica does may take some time before it's written to the rest of the cluster.

  241. waqas

    So different nodes in the cluster may have a different understanding of last-modified time at any given point in time

  242. waqas

    Pagination is tough as well. You request page 1. Then you request page 2, except page 1 results may already be invalid by the time you ask for page 2.

  243. waqas

    Since last modified order is changing all the time

  244. lnj has left

  245. waqas

    I don't want to speak for Evgeny, I'm just assuming the above is what he means.

  246. mtavares has joined

  247. Zash

    Database synchronization is hard.

  248. goffi

    waqas: pagination issue is already mentioned in RSM. I'm not against adding a flag in the result saying it may be inconsistent.

  249. jonas’

    goffi, no pagination is not covered with RSM as soon as you order by a mutable field

  250. jonas’

    well, it is covered

  251. jonas’

    but it’s not safe anymore

  252. goffi

    "The set of items that match a query MAY change over time, even during the time that a requesting entity pages through the result set (e.g., a set of chatrooms, since rooms can be created and destroyed at any time). The paging protocol outlined in this section is designed so that entities MAY provide the following features" (§2.2)

  253. Half-ShotX has left

  254. Half-ShotX has joined

  255. Alex has joined

  256. MattJ

    I'm confused by your one email which says " the order affect the whole archive, not just a result set" and in a following email "it's true that the order inside the page is not influenced."

  257. goffi

    waqas: thanks about the explanation. I think this should be mentioned in the XEP, and maybe a flag could be added.

  258. goffi

    MattJ: the first message was because yesterday it didn't seemed clear that the ordering was on the full history (i.e. we are not ordering the says 10 items we ask for, but we are ordering the whole archive and getting the 10 first items from that)

  259. MattJ


  260. Half-ShotX has left

  261. lovetox has left

  262. goffi

    Matthew: the second is because there is currently no mechanism to say, inside the page result we get, that we want the first item to be the most recent or the least recent. Currently the XEP state (not explictly enough apparently, I'll fix that), that the first item of the page is always the most recent, regarless if we are getting the result normally, or backward using RSM.

  263. mtavares has left

  264. mtavares has joined

  265. MattJ

    I'm personally leaning towards just having another field in the existing MAM query form, to keep things simple

  266. MattJ

    and then we can fix pubsub separately

  267. goffi

    waqas: by the way, the last modification time is currently the default ordering using XEP-0060 without anything else. There is actually no "modification" notion, it's just a new item, but that the result it the same.

  268. MattJ

    I think the problems are slightly different, because you can't update a MAM entry (and never will be able to)

  269. goffi

    MattJ: you mean extending XEP-0313 directly or havint a new XEP which extend MAM ?

  270. MattJ

    I was planning to extend XEP-0313

  271. Zash

    MattJ: Message corrections...

  272. MattJ

    and the problem with MAM isn't which property to sort on, it's simply which direction to sort in

  273. Half-ShotX has joined

  274. MattJ

    The problem with pubsub is not the direction, but the property

  275. Kev

    > I think the problems are slightly different, because you can't update a MAM entry (and never will be able to) Not 100% true, because of redaction, but close enough.

  276. MattJ

    and another reason not to solve both with the same protocol, is that the server implementation for both of these is quite different

  277. goffi

    MattJ: what about MAM with Pubsub (which is the case I'm most interested in) ? The item can be overwritten there.

  278. MattJ

    Yet the order-by XEP only allows discovery of support for <order>, not within a specific protocol

  279. Ge0rG

    cant we just implement SQL replication over XMPP and be done?

  280. goffi

    I can fix that and only use is with MAM for Pubsub, it doesn't really make sense in the other case anyway.

  281. MattJ

    I don't know - I have nothing to do with MAM-with-pubsub, never have, and I'm still unconvinced whether I ever will

  282. goffi

    I think filtering should have been a pubsub thing instead of a MAM thing, but today it's the only tool we have to filter items in Pubsub.

  283. goffi

    and it's a really important feature for most of use cases I have with Pubsub.

  284. oli has joined

  285. goffi

    the MAM example in the order-by protoXEP is about Pubsub

  286. labdsf has left

  287. labdsf has joined

  288. MattJ

    if we add order reversal to MAM, interaction with order-by would get confusing if that also let you select asc/desc

  289. MattJ

    Otherwise, they could probably live together

  290. MattJ

    But I don't know if I can imagine implementing it personally

  291. MattJ


  292. MattJ

    Maybe I can, in the context of pubsub, but basically it would be a separate implementation

  293. Half-ShotX has left

  294. Half-ShotX has joined

  295. Half-ShotX has left

  296. Zash

    PubSub in Prosody is squeezed through an abstract LRU cache, so that level would have to be thrown out and rebuilt

  297. MattJ

    goffi, does a config item on the pubsub node definitely not fulfil your requirements?

  298. MattJ

    (a config item that says "sort by update" or "sort by creation")

  299. Zash

    "keep order on ower-write"

  300. MattJ

    or do you need this control at the time of query?

  301. Zash

    There's no update in PubSub, only implicit deletion

  302. waqas

    I think the basic use-case being supported is just showing microblog posts by time they were first posted vs time when they were last modified. Last modified is current state, right?

  303. goffi

    MattJ: for some use cases I need to do it at query time. For instance for a forum, I want to be able to have last modified message popup on top, or have it by creation date.

  304. goffi

    Zash: no there is no update in Pubsub, that's why the "date of modification" is explained in the XEP, the business logic is changed.

  305. goffi

    waqas: last modified is current state yes.

  306. frainz has joined

  307. ta has left

  308. ta has joined

  309. ralphm

    The idea is to _add_ business logic so that overwriting implies updating, right?

  310. goffi

    ralphm: yes

  311. goffi

    But also to have a way, later, to order by a field for instance (e.g. prioriy of a ticket, or evaluation of an answer to a question).

  312. Half-ShotX has joined

  313. Alex has left

  314. Alex has joined

  315. efrit has joined

  316. alacer has joined

  317. Half-ShotX has left

  318. nyco has joined

  319. Half-ShotX has joined

  320. lskdjf has joined

  321. tux has left

  322. ThibG has joined

  323. ThibG has joined

  324. andy has left

  325. igoose has joined

  326. alacer has left

  327. mimi89999 has joined

  328. lovetox has joined

  329. mimi89999 has joined

  330. daniel has joined

  331. Half-ShotX has left

  332. Half-ShotX has joined

  333. alacer has joined

  334. Half-ShotX has left

  335. vanitasvitae has left

  336. vanitasvitae has left

  337. Half-ShotX has joined

  338. Maranda has joined

  339. alacer has left

  340. moparisthebest has joined

  341. moparisthebest has joined

  342. oli has joined

  343. mtavares has left

  344. mtavares has joined

  345. andy has joined

  346. alacer has joined

  347. j.r has joined

  348. mrDoctorWho has left

  349. lnj has joined

  350. moparisthebest has left

  351. oli has joined

  352. Ge0rG has left

  353. oli has left

  354. oli has joined

  355. alacer has left

  356. alacer has joined

  357. matlag has joined

  358. efrit has left

  359. moparisthebest has left

  360. alacer has left

  361. alacer has joined

  362. pep. has joined

  363. alacer has left

  364. alacer has joined

  365. lskdjf has left

  366. lskdjf has joined

  367. Half-ShotX has left

  368. lorddavidiii has left

  369. Half-ShotX has joined

  370. Half-ShotX has left

  371. lorddavidiii has joined

  372. waqas has left

  373. waqas has joined

  374. mrDoctorWho has joined

  375. Yagiza has left

  376. alacer has left

  377. alacer has joined

  378. lnj has left

  379. Half-ShotX has joined

  380. Half-ShotX has left

  381. Half-ShotX has joined

  382. Half-ShotX has left

  383. alacer has left

  384. labdsf has left

  385. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  386. Half-ShotX has joined

  387. mtavares has joined

  388. Maranda has left

  389. waqas has left

  390. Half-ShotX has left

  391. mtavares has joined

  392. Alex has left

  393. Alex has joined

  394. labdsf has joined

  395. Half-ShotX has joined

  396. Alex has left

  397. Alex has joined

  398. jjrh has left

  399. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  400. lskdjf has joined

  401. Maranda has left

  402. nyco has left

  403. Half-ShotX has left

  404. Half-ShotX has joined

  405. andy has left

  406. mtavares has joined

  407. daniel has left

  408. lskdjf has joined

  409. lskdjf has joined

  410. lnj has joined

  411. mtavares has joined

  412. daniel has joined

  413. Half-ShotX has left

  414. j.r has joined

  415. ta has left

  416. ta has left

  417. Half-ShotX has joined

  418. lnj has left

  419. nyco has left

  420. jjrh has left

  421. mtavares has joined

  422. mtavares has joined

  423. UsL has left

  424. Half-ShotX has left

  425. Half-ShotX has joined

  426. Half-ShotX has left

  427. UsL has joined

  428. jjrh has left

  429. Half-ShotX has joined

  430. Alex has left

  431. Half-ShotX has left

  432. Half-ShotX has joined

  433. nyco has left

  434. waqas has joined

  435. Yagiza has joined

  436. Half-ShotX has left

  437. Half-ShotX has joined

  438. waqas has left

  439. mtavares has left

  440. lovetox has left

  441. Half-ShotX has left

  442. Half-ShotX has joined

  443. mtavares has joined

  444. jjrh has left

  445. jjrh has left

  446. Half-ShotX has left

  447. jjrh has left

  448. ta has left

  449. jjrh has left

  450. l has left

  451. Half-ShotX has joined

  452. jjrh has left

  453. Half-ShotX has left

  454. alacer has joined

  455. Half-ShotX has joined

  456. Half-ShotX has left

  457. lorddavidiii has joined

  458. mtavares has joined

  459. Half-ShotX has joined

  460. marc_ has joined

  461. mtavares has joined

  462. Half-ShotX has left

  463. neshtaxmpp has joined

  464. Half-ShotX has joined

  465. labdsf has left

  466. labdsf has joined

  467. labdsf has left

  468. labdsf has joined

  469. Half-ShotX has left

  470. Half-ShotX has joined

  471. Half-ShotX has left

  472. lnj has joined

  473. UsL has left

  474. UsL has joined

  475. lovetox has joined

  476. labdsf has left

  477. labdsf has joined

  478. labdsf has left

  479. labdsf has joined

  480. Half-ShotX has joined

  481. labdsf has left

  482. labdsf has joined

  483. mtavares has joined

  484. ralphm has left

  485. dwd

    Hi folks.

  486. Ge0rG

    Hey dwd, back from holidays?

  487. Half-ShotX has left

  488. dwd

    Yeah, holidays plus family emergency, unfortunately.

  489. Ge0rG

    dwd: sorry to hear that. Hope things are normalizing again

  490. mtavares has joined

  491. dwd

    So I have an interesting problem with the XMPP Summit, and I wondered if anyone else had the same issue.

  492. dwd

    My new boss said he looked at the details for the XMPP Summit, and concluded it wasn't happening because there was nothing on the website and wiki page.

  493. Half-ShotX has joined

  494. jonas’

    the wiki page doesn’t look exactly empty tom e?

  495. Guus

    dwd - I am happy to facilitate later tonight

  496. Guus

    I'm about on my way back home, which will take some time.

  497. Guus

    In the mean time, if someone feels like drafting a blog post... 🙂

  498. jonas’

    we do have a blog post, don’t we?

  499. dwd

    jonas’, The Agenda is empty, for instance.

  500. jonas’


  501. dwd

    jonas’, And the blog post *is* there, but several articles down and not easily visible from the website.

  502. jonas’

    (that’s true, which is why I didn’t link it in the first place)

  503. Guus

    so, some kind of banner on the home page?

  504. jonas’

    the summit is members-only, isn’t it?

  505. Ge0rG

    maybe linking the blog post from the wiki would be a start?

  506. Zash

    pin it

  507. dwd

    jonas’, Not as far as I know.

  508. Guus

    ok, I need to go now

  509. dwd

    Guus, I'll catch you later...

  510. jonas’

    dwd, if what you say is true, a banner on the website would make sense, indeed

  511. Guus

    but I would welcome more exposure

  512. Guus has left

  513. jonas’

    I can probably draft some HTML for a b anner on the website, but someone will have to do the design fine-tuning

  514. Ge0rG

    jonas’: what about a box of upcoming events?

  515. marc_ has left

  516. jonas’

    Ge0rG, complexity

  517. jonas’

    I want this simple now

  518. Ge0rG

    it could be on the wiki as well, and feature elections and the like

  519. Ge0rG

    speaking of which... there is still no election page for Q1

  520. !xsf_Martin has joined

  521. Guus

    > I can probably draft some HTML for a b anner on the website, but someone will have to do the design fine-tuning 💓

  522. jonas’

    that’s a nice box you got there

  523. dwd

    jonas’, The problem isn't just a banner. The problem is that if it weren't for my insisting it's really A Thing, my manager wouldn't have believed it's a real event.

  524. jonas’

    dwd, yes, I see your point

  525. krauq has left

  526. jonas’

    however, the banner is something I can do, and which I realised when browsing $anotherOrgs page recently that it is something the XSF lacks

  527. Guus

    The banner, linking to a Thing-definion

  528. Ge0rG

    dwd: isn't that kind of symptomatic for XSF events?

  529. jonas’

    (announcing the event loudly on the main page)

  530. Zash

    SCAM needs a bigger marketing budget?

  531. dwd

    Ge0rG, Yes.

  532. dwd

    But here's the thing - right now, XMPP jobs, whilst relatively few, are very highly paid. There seems to be a lot of XMPP about, in some well-resourced areas. We should be getting really good attendence.

  533. dwd

    So I'm wondering if the reason we're not is because it's not seen as a normal corporate-friendly event.

  534. jonas’

    Cobol jobs have the same classification

  535. jonas’

    dwd, for starters, from my perception, summit was members-only

  536. jonas’

    we’re not really advertising it to non-members

  537. dwd

    jonas’, No, and that can't be a good thing.

  538. Ge0rG

    from my perception, Summit is heavily biased to new protocol design, which is not typically something for newcomers

  539. dwd

    jonas’, The Dinner *is* members-only, though we've rarely enforced that.

  540. Ge0rG

    The one time I attended The Dinner, I wasn't a member.

  541. dwd

    Ge0rG, Yes, but we had an interesting session abotu where XMPP was used last time, which was really fascinating to me.

  542. Zash

    Members +1 ish?

  543. dwd

    Zash, Roughly.

  544. mtavares has joined

  545. Half-ShotX has left

  546. Half-ShotX has joined

  547. dwd

    But I wonder if we could [re-]introduce talks and other things that look a little more conference-y. We've done so before, but I think that making the Summit look a little more professional (ie, corporate) would help people expense travel to it, and therefore attend.

  548. jonas’

    seems legit

  549. Ge0rG

    dwd: that sounds like a great idea. Maybe have one day of talks and one day of workshops?

  550. Ge0rG

    Even just calling what we do every year "workshops" will already make it more enterprisey

  551. jonas’

    not that I consider myself to have a chance to attend on company budget, considering that we’re so not XMPP

  552. Zash

    That sounds fine

  553. Guus

    Let's add this to the agenda of the upcoming summit?

  554. Half-ShotX has left

  555. Guus

    Also, I would not mind having more than one per year

  556. Ge0rG

    there used to be two, across the pond

  557. Guus

    We're we could differentiate

  558. dwd

    Ge0rG, I was thinking just an afternoon to start with, but yes.

  559. jjrh has left

  560. Guus

    dwd: would you mind drafting a semi static summit event description for on the website?

  561. Ge0rG

    dwd: an afternoon of talks? Sure

  562. Guus

    We can have jonas’ banner link to it

  563. Guus

    There's a start.

  564. Zash

    There's these sprint things

  565. dwd

    Guus, I'll scribble some text.

  566. dwd

    Zash, You mean the hackathon type things? The IETF seems to get people to come to those.

  567. Guus

    Then add the sprint thing (cc pep. )

  568. jonas’


  569. jonas’

    `npm i` then run `grunt` to compile Sass.

  570. jonas’


  571. jonas’

    I take my "I can do a banner" back

  572. Guus

    Ok, I'm starting my car engine, afk.

  573. Zash

    dwd: something something ask pep.

  574. 404.city has joined

  575. dwd

    jonas’, This is why I said I would "scribble some text".

  576. Zash

    jonas’: what in the what and also why?

  577. frainz has left

  578. frainz has joined

  579. pep.


  580. jjrh has left

  581. Half-ShotX has joined

  582. mtavares has joined

  583. !xsf_Martin has left

  584. !xsf_Martin has joined

  585. jonas’

    https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/498 dwd, Guus

  586. neshtaxmpp has joined

  587. neshtaxmpp has joined

  588. daniel has joined

  589. Half-ShotX has left

  590. mtavares has joined

  591. Kev

    I think running a Real Conference for XMPP might be a good idea.

  592. Ge0rG

    Yes, and that doesn't need to be the Summit

  593. Zash


  594. dwd

    Kev, I agree, but I think adapting the Summit to increase engagement probably gives the most overall benefit.

  595. Kev

    I don't think "We've got a room in the Cisco offices for a couple of days" is really it, though. What we do is perfect (well, YKWIM) for what we get out of it, which is advancing the state of XMPP with technical discussions, but a long way off being appealing as a Conference.

  596. Kev

    Which isn't to say we couldn't do a thing instead of the Summit (in it's usual form) instead, at the same time

  597. Steve Kille has left

  598. Steve Kille has left

  599. dwd

    Well, if we re-cast the bulk of the Summit as being "workshops" and "open panels", it might work, but I take your point.

  600. dwd nips off to pick up son.

  601. Kev

    It might, but I don't think one room at Cisco is what we need for this.

  602. Kev

    There's nothing stopping us doing a Conference and having protocol advancement sessions, either.

  603. jonas’

    except manpower

  604. Kev

    But probably not all of it, and I think it needs more prior organisation than a Summit.

  605. Ge0rG

    Those are separate goals - make Summit look more enterprisey while keeping the content / make a conference appealing to commercial xmpp users

  606. labdsf has left

  607. labdsf has joined

  608. 404.city has left

  609. Kev

    There's "Try to make the Summit easy to expense for the usual sort of crowd" and "draw more people to the Summit"

  610. Half-ShotX has joined

  611. Steve Kille has joined

  612. ralphm has left

  613. frainz has left

  614. frainz has joined

  615. Half-ShotX has left

  616. daniel has joined

  617. daniel has joined

  618. labdsf has left

  619. labdsf has joined

  620. Erkan Files

    > There's "Try to make the Summit easy to expense for the usual sort of crowd" and "draw more people to the Summit" Does that mean that newbies should be able to participate and understand most of the "things" there?

  621. Zash

    Depends on what kind of newbie

  622. frainz has joined

  623. Half-ShotX has joined

  624. Erkan Files

    Like me

  625. Lance has joined

  626. Lance has left

  627. ralphm

    So usually there is a bunch of discussion on protocol, like the last few times with MIX.

  628. ralphm

    Some of those can be really indepth, some not so.

  629. frainz has joined

  630. mrDoctorWho has joined

  631. Zash

    What kind of participant would such an event aim for?

  632. ralphm

    So it depends on whether newbie means: “I haven't been around for long”, or “I don't know much about the protocols”

  633. ralphm

    I also want to note that we potentially have more rooms this year. Rudy (of Cisco) wrote: “I did in the meanwhile book the rooms Cassiopea and Electra (can be combined to a single larger, wider space) as well as the adjacent room Centaurus which you could use as a break room for speakers, organisers, logistics, ….”

  634. Half-ShotX has left

  635. Half-ShotX has joined

  636. Half-ShotX has left

  637. Guus has left

  638. Guus has joined

  639. ThibG has joined

  640. Half-ShotX has joined

  641. Erkan Files

    ralphm: Where is Cisco located

  642. ralphm


  643. ralphm


  644. Zash


  645. Erkan Files

    > So it depends on whether newbie means: “I haven't been around for long”, or “I don't know much about the protocols” I dont know much about the protocolls. My fear is that just the time and this MUC arent enough to get out of this kind of newbie status...

  646. Guus has left

  647. labdsf has left

  648. jjrh has left

  649. labdsf has joined

  650. labdsf has left

  651. labdsf has joined

  652. j.r has joined

  653. labdsf has left

  654. labdsf has joined

  655. jjrh has left

  656. labdsf has left

  657. labdsf has joined

  658. Ge0rG has joined

  659. lovetox

    what about https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/jingle-xtls.html

  660. lovetox

    how long does stuff stay in the inbox?

  661. lovetox


  662. Zash

    until the end of time

  663. Guus has joined

  664. daniel has left

  665. Neustradamus


  666. daniel has joined

  667. ta has left

  668. ta has left

  669. ta has joined

  670. marc_ has joined

  671. labdsf has left

  672. labdsf has joined

  673. ralphm has left

  674. alacer has left

  675. lskdjf has joined

  676. jjrh has left

  677. jjrh has left

  678. jjrh has left

  679. jjrh has joined

  680. Guus has left

  681. Guus has joined

  682. l has joined

  683. genofire has left

  684. Guus has left

  685. sezuan has left

  686. lskdjf has joined

  687. lskdjf has joined

  688. Guus has joined

  689. jonas’

    lovetox, it’s never deleted

  690. pep.

    https://dpaste.de/BjkD/raw something like that for sprints would do? thoughts?

  691. pep.

    I'll send a patch

  692. labdsf has left

  693. labdsf has joined

  694. j.r has left

  695. ralphm


  696. pep.


  697. j.r has joined

  698. Guus

    I'm back home

  699. Guus

    Thanks for all of the ideas, people

  700. jonas’


  701. Guus

    I'd suggest keeping the summit pretty much as-is, and have another, more conferency, event, at another date.

  702. Guus

    I simply like the summit format - it has its own value.

  703. jonas’

    I tend to agree, even though I only participated remotely

  704. Guus

    side note: the Cisco offices are not publicly accessible.

  705. jonas’

    (I’ll have to figure out how to do that this year :/)

  706. Guus

    for a conferency-type of deal, we might want to consider using a different venue

  707. jonas’


  708. Zash has left

  709. pep.

    I'm all for this new idea :)

  710. pep.

    well, maybe not new idea

  711. pep.

    But I want to see it implemented

  712. Guus

    In any case, I'd suggest to not deviate to much from the Summit format for the upcoming event - as it's close, I'd like to avoid confusion.

  713. jonas’

    very much +1

  714. pep.


  715. jonas’

    btw, I’m happy to hack in more crappy inline CSS to make this fancier: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/498

  716. jonas’

    but I’m at the limits of my creativity

  717. jonas’

    so if anyone provides a mockup, I’m happy to try to achieve that

  718. Guus

    jonas’ it looks great to me - although I'd prefer a flashy / contrasting color, to pull in attention

  719. pep.

    nit: can this be vcentered?

  720. pep.

    the text inside the box

  721. Guus

    and cente....whathesaid

  722. jonas’

    centering is trivial (and you probably mean hcenter)

  723. pep.

    I mean vcenter

  724. jonas’

    please suggest colors, I’m really bad at picking those

  725. jonas’

    pep., oh, you’re right

  726. Guus

    reddish or yellowish

  727. jonas’

    Guus, I guessed that much

  728. Guus

    I actually ment vcenter 🙂

  729. jonas’

    the details are the tricky part

  730. pep.

    vcentering was still one of the fun things to do when ran away from "the web"

  731. jonas’

    in this case, I just had to kill the margin-bottom of the p which holds the text

  732. Guus

    jonas’ we use this blue for active menus: maybe that'd work: #008CBA

  733. jonas’

    makes the link unreadable obviously

  734. jonas’

    I could make the entire thing clickable though

  735. jonas’

    which would do the trick

  736. Guus

    yeah, I suck at this more than you do 😃

  737. !xsf_Martin has left

  738. Guus has left

  739. jonas’


  740. jonas’

    I think this is fair

  741. genofire has joined

  742. pep.


  743. goffi has joined

  744. jonas’

    updated the PR: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/498

  745. Guus

  746. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  747. goffi

    If I get it well, I find this comment deeply depressing: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18847472

  748. goffi

    Telehash is a project from Jeremie Miller right?

  749. Guus

    well, it's an answer to a direct question on the status of telehash: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18827032

  750. Guus

    so it's not an unsolicited "by the way, look at this" type of comment.

  751. goffi

    Guus: yes, and it's coming from the Telehash core team apparently.

  752. goffi

    Guus: no that's not my point, my point is that Telehash, a project founded by Jeremie Miller, creator of Jabber, is using Slack to communicate.

  753. jonas’

    looking at the screenshot after a while, this looks *so* much more alive now

  754. jonas’

    with the upcoming event and all

  755. jonas’

    we should be doing this for all our upcoming events

  756. Guus

    @jonas` definitely.

  757. jonas’

    I wonder whether we can somehow integrate this with the blog, so that we don’t have to micro-manage tihs, but I don’t think that’s easy

  758. pep.

    jonas’, sprints and all?

  759. jonas’


  760. goffi

    yes the banner looks nice.

  761. Guus

    i'd love to replace that top-right wiki thing

  762. jonas’

    top-right wiki thing?

  763. fippo

    goffi: temas was one of the folks running jabberstudio.org back in the early days :-|

  764. goffi

    fippo: that's even more depressing :(

  765. Guus

    jonas’ https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Main_Page, top right, "upcoming events"

  766. jonas’


  767. jonas’

    it needs an update, too

  768. jonas’

    I’m going ahead and deleting the past stuff

  769. Guus

    I'd love for the website to become more 'active' or 'community driven', or whatver

  770. jonas’

    unlikely to happen with the current framework

  771. jonas’

    we need to figure out why it doesn’t build correctly locally

  772. Guus

    jonas’ please do, but move them to the archive page.

  773. jonas’

    which archive pages

  774. jonas’

    which archive page?

  775. Guus

    see link in box below 'recent events' 🙂

  776. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  777. Guus

    what I typically do is move 'upcoming' to 'recent', and move the last few 'recents' to the archive.

  778. Zash has left

  779. jonas’


  780. jonas’

    I’m incompetent sometimes

  781. jonas’

    also, doing like three things at the same time while having had way not enough sleep isn’t good for me

  782. jonas’


  783. Guus


  784. lumi has left

  785. Zash has joined

  786. goffi

    oh cool, Evgeny message was a misunderstanding.

  787. Guus

    also, it might be good to mention that the bar for adding/modifying the website is a lot lower than some people might think. I invite everyone to suggest changes.

  788. jonas’

    Guus, does that look good to you? https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Main_Page

  789. Guus

    jonas’ sure, thanks.

  790. Guus

    it's no biggy either way

  791. jonas’

    regarding the website bar: it is non-trivial to test the website locally due to the strict version requirements on pelican

  792. jonas’

    not to mention that CSS changes require some (possibly web "standard", but still) npm installation stuff

  793. Guus

    right, it might currently be hard to apply a change, tehcnically, but I had a discussion last week where people where under the impression that only a few people get to decide what goes on the website

  794. jonas’

    effectively, only a few people do ;-)

  795. jonas’

    tohse with power over the uhge green merge button

  796. Guus

    right, but I'd _love_ to change that

  797. jonas’

    I don’t

  798. Guus

    sure, there are a few gatekeepers, but content-wise, I'd love it live more.

  799. jonas’


  800. Guus

    PRs are excellent

  801. Guus

    for this.

  802. jonas’


  803. pep.

    If a gate-keeper could merge or review my PR for the sprints that'd be great :)

  804. Guus

    pep. I actually added a comment 🙂

  805. jonas’

    I second Guus’ comment

  806. pep.

    heh, sure I can change that. So I'd reverse the order of the list as well right

  807. Guus

    (also, Seve , I'm painfully aware that there's still your PR to review)

  808. jonas’

    what’s blocking that?

  809. Guus

    my time.

  810. Guus

    or attention span

  811. Guus

    simply didn't get around to it.

  812. jonas’

    I mean, is this a content or a technical issue which needs to be reviewed?

  813. jonas’

    note that one cannot test the menu locally with current pelican versions as of now

  814. pep.

    Should I add dates in these lists?

  815. jonas’

    pep., dates would be good, especially for upcoming

  816. Guus

    pep. if you think it's helpful to interested people, yeah!

  817. jonas’

    try to answer where, when, and if possible, what

  818. Guus

    jonas’ I simply haven't taken the time to look at it yet.

  819. pep.

    What is usually a bit difficult, as it's discussed really close to the date

  820. pep.

    Except for Brussels maybe where it was said it would be about UX from the start

  821. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  822. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  823. Guus

    pep. do something like: "medio January"

  824. waqas has joined

  825. Guus

    "or Q1 2019"

  826. jonas’

    I sense a misunderstanding

  827. pep.


  828. Guus


  829. pep.

    Is it me or there's a lot of latin being used in this community? :P

  830. jonas’

    Guus, aren’t the sprint dates fixed?

  831. jonas’

    like, konwn

  832. jonas’

    like, known

  833. pep.

    They are

  834. jonas’


  835. pep.

    Well, at some point

  836. jonas’

    so I think that Guus misread your sentence "What is usually a bit difficult, as it's discussed really close to the date" (which I did too)

  837. pep.

    "What" is usually a bit difficult

  838. jonas’


  839. jjrh has left

  840. pep.

    https://bpaste.net/raw/57647708077f ?

  841. pep.

    Not sure how that will show

  842. Guus

    Aaah, I was under the impression that the final date was known only pretty close to the event.

  843. Guus

    so, a misunderstanding indeed. 🙂

  844. jonas’

    pep., so, yeah, exact dates please

  845. jonas’

    this was just confusion

  846. Guus

    pep, if you have actual dates (days), I'd use those.

  847. Guus

    yup, sorry for that.

  848. pep.

    hmm, brussels is two not consecutive days, in different months

  849. pep.

    That's going to be annoying

  850. waqas has left

  851. waqas has joined

  852. Guus

    hehe, whatever works 🙂 I'll not twist your arm behind your back to have exact dates 🙂

  853. Guus

    I'm already very happy that this goes on the website in the first place

  854. pep.

    Thanks, I appreciate

  855. pep.

    I like my arm very much

  856. pep.

    I like my arm very much where it is

  857. jonas’

    pep., what

  858. jonas’

    I don’t get it

  859. jonas’

    if it’s two different events, it should get two entries

  860. jonas’

    so you can put exact dates on each?

  861. pep.

    It's the "same" event, just that the summit "appeared" in between :P

  862. jonas’

    sorry, I think I’m too tired to follow this

  863. pep.

    I think roel wanted to do two days, but asking people to be there tuesday _and_ wednesday was a bit too much, considering most of us are going to the summit and fosdem.

  864. pep.

    So they're going to do 30th (wed), and there's something that might happen on the 1st, at fosdem maybe, I don't know much

  865. jonas’

    I see

  866. Guus

    pep. just add wednesday, and note on the wiki page that there might be a follow-up after FOSDEM

  867. jonas’

    I’d just list "Jan 30th, Feb 1st, 2019 (around FOSDEM), Brussels" as link text

  868. pep.

    *At fosdem

  869. jonas’

    or just Jan 30th, that’d probably work too

  870. pep.


  871. Guus

    I'd be happy with any of the above. Go for it 🙂

  872. pep.

    Should I use british of usican on the website?

  873. pep.

    Should I use british or usican on the website?

  874. pep.


  875. jonas’

    so tired

  876. jonas’

    go for US when in doubt

  877. igoose has left

  878. jonas’

    we use it in XEPs, too

  879. igoose has joined

  880. Guus

    use letters for months

  881. Guus

    and avoid confusion

  882. jonas’


  883. jonas’

    or ISO format, but words read better in the list

  884. pep.

    "March 30-31st, 2019." ?

  885. Guus

    I'd not use the year

  886. Guus

    maybe in the archive

  887. jonas’

    I’d add the year

  888. jonas’

    you can never be sure whether a website is kept up-to-date

  889. Guus

    but for the upcoming events, they should be sufficiently close

  890. pep.

    I would add the year as well, it can be confusing otherwise

  891. Guus shrugs.

  892. jonas’

    and when reading a list, it’s always good to see that right away

  893. pep.

    and yeah what jonas’ says

  894. jonas’

    pep., that format looks readable to me

  895. Guus is still not going to twist arms.

  896. jonas’

    I’m worried about the "still" :)

  897. pep.


  898. Guus

    got to keep the suspense goin' 🙂

  899. jonas’


  900. pep.


  901. Guus

    Was dwd going to write a text descirbing the summit?

  902. jonas’

    I’m not sure

  903. jonas’

    pep., "March" is now duplicated in the list item

  904. pep.

    Ah fail.

  905. jonas’

    I’d also probably have put it this way: * [Brussels, January 30th, 2019](...) (around FOSDEM)

  906. jonas’

    but that’s just my preference

  907. jonas’

    not going to twist arms, either

  908. pep.

    Please stop threatening my arms

  909. jonas’

    I am not threatening your (or anybodies) arms :)

  910. Guus

    time to get creative with the body parts?

  911. Guus takes out his trusty IRC-trout...

  912. pep.

    not the trout!

  913. jonas’


  914. jonas’

    (t)rusty, probably

  915. pep.

    here, pushed again

  916. jonas’

    also, isn’t trusty EOL ;-)

  917. Guus

    unrelated side note: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/497

  918. jonas’

    I like it now, Guus

  919. Guus

    this concerns me

  920. jonas’

    I like it now, pep.

  921. jonas’

    Guus, it concerns me, too

  922. jonas’

    board should definitely look into that

  923. jonas’

    I would’ve made a PR

  924. Guus

    push the button, jonas’ !

  925. jonas’

    but I’m not sure where we list sponsors, typically

  926. jonas’

    and how

  927. jonas’

    and such

  928. jonas’


  929. neshtaxmpp has joined

  930. jonas’

    Guus, as board member, can you maybe comment that the Board will take this seriously?

  931. jonas’

    leaving this uncommented for 3 days is... a bit meh

  932. Guus

    you're right

  933. jonas’


  934. jonas’


  935. jonas’

    (I am tired and getting silly)

  936. pep.

    How long does the website take to build again?

  937. Guus


  938. jonas’

    Guus, no

  939. jonas’

    in total I think 10 - 15 minutes until it’s live

  940. pep.

    k, thanks

  941. Guus

    that's what I said.

  942. Guus


  943. jonas’

    Guus, you’re not an editor, obviously

  944. Guus


  945. jonas’

    that takes 60 minutes+

  946. Guus


  947. jonas’

    so ... the website is rather fast.

  948. Erkan Files has left

  949. jonas’

    we have a super-fancy banner on https://xmpp.org now :) thanks for the input :)

  950. pep.

    jonas’, we need the full package, incremental builds etc. :P

  951. pep.

    Or do you have that already

  952. jonas’


  953. jonas’

    then it would take like 5 minutes, not 60

  954. mtavares has joined

  955. mtavares has left

  956. mimi89999 has joined

  957. Guus

    well, while we're being effective: is there anything that we can do to speed https://github.com/xmpp-observatory along?

  958. jonas’

    somebody needs to figure out how to teach the involved DNS relsover libraries about the new root zone keys

  959. jonas’

    that’s the current remaining issue with xmpp.net

  960. pep.

    https://xmpp.org/community/events.html "Krakow (soon)", any idea when this "soon" is due for?

  961. jonas’

    (that I am aware of)

  962. jonas’

    pep., remove it

  963. jonas’

    (or maybe check the git-blame first)

  964. pep.

    Also same page, it references Summit 22

  965. Guus

    jonas’ I'm not even sure I understand what you said.

  966. jonas’

    pep., clean it, while you’re at it

  967. Guus

    pep. also, that's the link to last years' summit

  968. jonas’

    Guus, xmpp.net works, except for the issue that it cannot validate DNSSEC currently. So any zone which uses DNSSEC appears to be broken to it. This needs fixing.

  969. pep.

    Guus, yes

  970. Guus

    you can safely remove all events, they're from last year, at best.

  971. jonas’

    (it cannot validate DNSSEC because it uses the old keys for the root zone which have been exchanged recently in a surprisingly ostentatious ceremony)

  972. jonas’

    Guus, so somebody needs to teach the libraries which are baked into the xmppoke docker thing about the new keys

  973. Guus

    I don't know how DNS zone / key / ceremony works.

  974. jonas’

    it is fun

  975. Guus

    is this a configuration thingy, or a code change thingy?

  976. jonas’

    probably code change thingy

  977. jonas’

    because the keys are embedded in the library

  978. jonas’

    worst case one needs to patch the binary file

  979. pep.


  980. Guus

    pep, please remove all events

  981. Guus

    they're from 2017

  982. Alex has joined

  983. pep.


  984. Guus

    oh, actually

  985. Guus


  986. Guus

    the berlin one was from last december

  987. Yagiza has left

  988. pep.

    The berlin meetup is ongoing

  989. pep.

    I mean it's recurring, rather

  990. Guus

    stockholm can be removed

  991. pep.

    FOSDEM can also be updated

  992. Guus

    london can be removed

  993. Guus

    and Paris is also outdated

  994. Guus

    so, only keep Berlin 🙂

  995. pep.


  996. Guus

    looks good. I'll let Travis do its thing, but am happy to merge

  997. Guus

    Thanks for doing all this guys!

  998. pep.

    goffi, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/FOSDEM_2019 do you mind adding your talk if you have time?

  999. pep.

    There's also JC in there

  1000. pep.

    Dele I guess

  1001. goffi

    pep.: yes I will, but probably tomorrow, start to be tired now

  1002. pep.


  1003. Guus

    jonas’ are you technically capable of doing the DNS zone magic that you just referred to, or should I direct my pretty-pleases at MattJ or others?

  1004. goffi

    pep.: please ping me again if I haven't done tomorrow evening

  1005. vaulor has joined

  1006. pep.


  1007. MattJ

    Guus, direct at me

  1008. MattJ

    But I have less than zero time at the moment

  1009. Guus

    MattJ I have cherries-on-top to offer, to sweeten the deal.

  1010. Guus


  1011. Guus

    is there anyone else capable of doing this?

  1012. Guus

    with zero+ time available, hopefully?

  1013. pep.

    MattJ, does that mean Guus owes you time now

  1014. pep.

    For asking

  1015. MattJ

    It's just a matter of updating the Dockerfile to install a newer version of a dependency from a package that Zash already made

  1016. Guus

    pep. I have a tab going with him 🙂

  1017. MattJ

    and modifying it to stop using that dependency as a submodule which it currently compiles itself iirc

  1018. Guus

    oh, I can do that, I think

  1019. mtavares has joined

  1020. lorddavidiii has left

  1021. marc_ has left

  1022. waqas has left

  1023. waqas has joined

  1024. Half-ShotX has left

  1025. Guus

    MattJ / Zash can you identify said dependency, and the replacement package?

  1026. Guus


  1027. Guus

    (sounds DNSsie?)

  1028. pep.


  1029. pep.

    I mean, it is dnssie

  1030. Half-ShotX has joined

  1031. Half-ShotX has left

  1032. Guus

    I'm guestimating that this is the desired fix: https://code.zash.se/luaunbound/rev/3c3f017f35ac

  1033. efrit has joined

  1034. lskdjf has joined

  1035. oli

    lovetox: why are you interested in XTLS? client-to-client as in Jingle or something else?

  1036. lovetox

    yes jingle, but im not interested in it, Gajim already implements it

  1037. lovetox

    im just wondering why it never made it experimental

  1038. lnj has left

  1039. mtavares has joined

  1040. Half-ShotX has joined

  1041. tux has left

  1042. oli

    lovetox: encrypted jingle?

  1043. oli

    ok, yes, it's in the code.

  1044. oli has left

  1045. Guus

    https://github.com/xmpp-observatory/xmppoke/pull/3 <-- incredibly naive copy/paste thingy

  1046. oli has joined

  1047. Half-ShotX has left

  1048. Half-ShotX has joined

  1049. Half-ShotX has left

  1050. Guus

    jonas’ how do I test this fix locally? I need to run against a zone with DNS SEC?

  1051. Half-ShotX has joined

  1052. mtavares has left

  1053. Guus

    Hmm, I'm getting 'bogus dnssec' banners, which probably is an indication of failure. 😕

  1054. Half-ShotX has left

  1055. Half-ShotX has joined

  1056. ta has left

  1057. moparisthebest has joined

  1058. oli has left

  1059. oli has joined

  1060. Alex has left

  1061. lskdjf has joined

  1062. Guus has left

  1063. oli has left

  1064. oli has joined

  1065. oli has left

  1066. Half-ShotX has left

  1067. Half-ShotX has joined

  1068. oli has joined

  1069. oli has left

  1070. waqas has left

  1071. waqas has joined

  1072. MattJ

    Guus: yes, that's the bug

  1073. MattJ

    Pretty sure I confirmed a fix in a temporary container where I installed the package manually

  1074. l has left

  1075. ta has left

  1076. ta has left

  1077. Half-ShotX has left

  1078. Guus

    MattJ: im unsure what I'm doing. Locally, it didn't appear to work. Maybe I need to provide the commit message suggested trust file somehow.

  1079. Half-ShotX has joined

  1080. tux has joined

  1081. lovetox has left

  1082. Neustradamus has left

  1083. Neustradamus has joined

  1084. l has left

  1085. MattJ has joined

  1086. lskdjf has left

  1087. moparisthebest has left

  1088. moparisthebest has joined

  1089. waqas has left

  1090. waqas has joined

  1091. Half-ShotX has left

  1092. lskdjf has joined

  1093. mtavares has joined

  1094. oli has joined

  1095. Half-ShotX has joined

  1096. lskdjf has joined

  1097. lskdjf has joined