XSF Discussion - 2019-01-07

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  219. goffi Hi. I don't get Evgeny answer, can anybody explain me how clustered database are affected by the fact that we use or not an attribute to specify level of ordering?
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  225. waqas goffi: Most distributed and replicated databases tend to be eventually consistent, such that one db node may have a different modification timestamp for an item than another node in the cluster.
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  229. waqas (mysql and postgres for example have async replication, they are ACID for a node, but not for the cluster; many nosql dbs are similar)
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  231. goffi waqas: so he's not actually answering to the question (which is about adding an attribute to handle the order vs using order of <order/> elements), but talking about the feature in general, and only arguing about the modification time right?
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  233. goffi And this sounds like implementation details, nothing prevent to add a field to the database which is set when the item is received, before any replication.
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  236. goffi "order by" is used in SQL which can be used with clusters, so I don't see how this is different here.
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  238. waqas goffi: Consistent order for a mutable ordering value like last-modified time (vs an "immutable one", like creation-time) really works in SQL dbs with a single node, or which have cluster-wide write locks.
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  240. waqas In mysql for example, a write to one db replica does may take some time before it's written to the rest of the cluster.
  241. waqas So different nodes in the cluster may have a different understanding of last-modified time at any given point in time
  242. waqas Pagination is tough as well. You request page 1. Then you request page 2, except page 1 results may already be invalid by the time you ask for page 2.
  243. waqas Since last modified order is changing all the time
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  245. waqas I don't want to speak for Evgeny, I'm just assuming the above is what he means.
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  247. Zash Database synchronization is hard.
  248. goffi waqas: pagination issue is already mentioned in RSM. I'm not against adding a flag in the result saying it may be inconsistent.
  249. jonas’ goffi, no pagination is not covered with RSM as soon as you order by a mutable field
  250. jonas’ well, it is covered
  251. jonas’ but it’s not safe anymore
  252. goffi "The set of items that match a query MAY change over time, even during the time that a requesting entity pages through the result set (e.g., a set of chatrooms, since rooms can be created and destroyed at any time). The paging protocol outlined in this section is designed so that entities MAY provide the following features" (§2.2)
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  256. MattJ I'm confused by your one email which says " the order affect the whole archive, not just a result set" and in a following email "it's true that the order inside the page is not influenced."
  257. goffi waqas: thanks about the explanation. I think this should be mentioned in the XEP, and maybe a flag could be added.
  258. goffi MattJ: the first message was because yesterday it didn't seemed clear that the ordering was on the full history (i.e. we are not ordering the says 10 items we ask for, but we are ordering the whole archive and getting the 10 first items from that)
  259. MattJ Right
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  262. goffi Matthew: the second is because there is currently no mechanism to say, inside the page result we get, that we want the first item to be the most recent or the least recent. Currently the XEP state (not explictly enough apparently, I'll fix that), that the first item of the page is always the most recent, regarless if we are getting the result normally, or backward using RSM.
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  265. MattJ I'm personally leaning towards just having another field in the existing MAM query form, to keep things simple
  266. MattJ and then we can fix pubsub separately
  267. goffi waqas: by the way, the last modification time is currently the default ordering using XEP-0060 without anything else. There is actually no "modification" notion, it's just a new item, but that the result it the same.
  268. MattJ I think the problems are slightly different, because you can't update a MAM entry (and never will be able to)
  269. goffi MattJ: you mean extending XEP-0313 directly or havint a new XEP which extend MAM ?
  270. MattJ I was planning to extend XEP-0313
  271. Zash MattJ: Message corrections...
  272. MattJ and the problem with MAM isn't which property to sort on, it's simply which direction to sort in
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  274. MattJ The problem with pubsub is not the direction, but the property
  275. Kev > I think the problems are slightly different, because you can't update a MAM entry (and never will be able to) Not 100% true, because of redaction, but close enough.
  276. MattJ and another reason not to solve both with the same protocol, is that the server implementation for both of these is quite different
  277. goffi MattJ: what about MAM with Pubsub (which is the case I'm most interested in) ? The item can be overwritten there.
  278. MattJ Yet the order-by XEP only allows discovery of support for <order>, not within a specific protocol
  279. Ge0rG cant we just implement SQL replication over XMPP and be done?
  280. goffi I can fix that and only use is with MAM for Pubsub, it doesn't really make sense in the other case anyway.
  281. MattJ I don't know - I have nothing to do with MAM-with-pubsub, never have, and I'm still unconvinced whether I ever will
  282. goffi I think filtering should have been a pubsub thing instead of a MAM thing, but today it's the only tool we have to filter items in Pubsub.
  283. goffi and it's a really important feature for most of use cases I have with Pubsub.
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  285. goffi the MAM example in the order-by protoXEP is about Pubsub
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  288. MattJ if we add order reversal to MAM, interaction with order-by would get confusing if that also let you select asc/desc
  289. MattJ Otherwise, they could probably live together
  290. MattJ But I don't know if I can imagine implementing it personally
  291. MattJ Hmm
  292. MattJ Maybe I can, in the context of pubsub, but basically it would be a separate implementation
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  296. Zash PubSub in Prosody is squeezed through an abstract LRU cache, so that level would have to be thrown out and rebuilt
  297. MattJ goffi, does a config item on the pubsub node definitely not fulfil your requirements?
  298. MattJ (a config item that says "sort by update" or "sort by creation")
  299. Zash "keep order on ower-write"
  300. MattJ or do you need this control at the time of query?
  301. Zash There's no update in PubSub, only implicit deletion
  302. waqas I think the basic use-case being supported is just showing microblog posts by time they were first posted vs time when they were last modified. Last modified is current state, right?
  303. goffi MattJ: for some use cases I need to do it at query time. For instance for a forum, I want to be able to have last modified message popup on top, or have it by creation date.
  304. goffi Zash: no there is no update in Pubsub, that's why the "date of modification" is explained in the XEP, the business logic is changed.
  305. goffi waqas: last modified is current state yes.
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  309. ralphm The idea is to _add_ business logic so that overwriting implies updating, right?
  310. goffi ralphm: yes
  311. goffi But also to have a way, later, to order by a field for instance (e.g. prioriy of a ticket, or evaluation of an answer to a question).
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  485. dwd Hi folks.
  486. Ge0rG Hey dwd, back from holidays?
  487. Half-ShotX has left
  488. dwd Yeah, holidays plus family emergency, unfortunately.
  489. Ge0rG dwd: sorry to hear that. Hope things are normalizing again
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  491. dwd So I have an interesting problem with the XMPP Summit, and I wondered if anyone else had the same issue.
  492. dwd My new boss said he looked at the details for the XMPP Summit, and concluded it wasn't happening because there was nothing on the website and wiki page.
  493. Half-ShotX has joined
  494. jonas’ the wiki page doesn’t look exactly empty tom e?
  495. Guus dwd - I am happy to facilitate later tonight
  496. Guus I'm about on my way back home, which will take some time.
  497. Guus In the mean time, if someone feels like drafting a blog post... 🙂
  498. jonas’ we do have a blog post, don’t we?
  499. dwd jonas’, The Agenda is empty, for instance.
  500. jonas’ https://xmpp.org/2018/11/xmpp-summit-23/
  501. dwd jonas’, And the blog post *is* there, but several articles down and not easily visible from the website.
  502. jonas’ (that’s true, which is why I didn’t link it in the first place)
  503. Guus so, some kind of banner on the home page?
  504. jonas’ the summit is members-only, isn’t it?
  505. Ge0rG maybe linking the blog post from the wiki would be a start?
  506. Zash pin it
  507. dwd jonas’, Not as far as I know.
  508. Guus ok, I need to go now
  509. dwd Guus, I'll catch you later...
  510. jonas’ dwd, if what you say is true, a banner on the website would make sense, indeed
  511. Guus but I would welcome more exposure
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  513. jonas’ I can probably draft some HTML for a b anner on the website, but someone will have to do the design fine-tuning
  514. Ge0rG jonas’: what about a box of upcoming events?
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  516. jonas’ Ge0rG, complexity
  517. jonas’ I want this simple now
  518. Ge0rG it could be on the wiki as well, and feature elections and the like
  519. Ge0rG speaking of which... there is still no election page for Q1
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  521. Guus > I can probably draft some HTML for a b anner on the website, but someone will have to do the design fine-tuning 💓
  522. jonas’ that’s a nice box you got there
  523. dwd jonas’, The problem isn't just a banner. The problem is that if it weren't for my insisting it's really A Thing, my manager wouldn't have believed it's a real event.
  524. jonas’ dwd, yes, I see your point
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  526. jonas’ however, the banner is something I can do, and which I realised when browsing $anotherOrgs page recently that it is something the XSF lacks
  527. Guus The banner, linking to a Thing-definion
  528. Ge0rG dwd: isn't that kind of symptomatic for XSF events?
  529. jonas’ (announcing the event loudly on the main page)
  530. Zash SCAM needs a bigger marketing budget?
  531. dwd Ge0rG, Yes.
  532. dwd But here's the thing - right now, XMPP jobs, whilst relatively few, are very highly paid. There seems to be a lot of XMPP about, in some well-resourced areas. We should be getting really good attendence.
  533. dwd So I'm wondering if the reason we're not is because it's not seen as a normal corporate-friendly event.
  534. jonas’ Cobol jobs have the same classification
  535. jonas’ dwd, for starters, from my perception, summit was members-only
  536. jonas’ we’re not really advertising it to non-members
  537. dwd jonas’, No, and that can't be a good thing.
  538. Ge0rG from my perception, Summit is heavily biased to new protocol design, which is not typically something for newcomers
  539. dwd jonas’, The Dinner *is* members-only, though we've rarely enforced that.
  540. Ge0rG The one time I attended The Dinner, I wasn't a member.
  541. dwd Ge0rG, Yes, but we had an interesting session abotu where XMPP was used last time, which was really fascinating to me.
  542. Zash Members +1 ish?
  543. dwd Zash, Roughly.
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  547. dwd But I wonder if we could [re-]introduce talks and other things that look a little more conference-y. We've done so before, but I think that making the Summit look a little more professional (ie, corporate) would help people expense travel to it, and therefore attend.
  548. jonas’ seems legit
  549. Ge0rG dwd: that sounds like a great idea. Maybe have one day of talks and one day of workshops?
  550. Ge0rG Even just calling what we do every year "workshops" will already make it more enterprisey
  551. jonas’ not that I consider myself to have a chance to attend on company budget, considering that we’re so not XMPP
  552. Zash That sounds fine
  553. Guus Let's add this to the agenda of the upcoming summit?
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  555. Guus Also, I would not mind having more than one per year
  556. Ge0rG there used to be two, across the pond
  557. Guus We're we could differentiate
  558. dwd Ge0rG, I was thinking just an afternoon to start with, but yes.
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  560. Guus dwd: would you mind drafting a semi static summit event description for on the website?
  561. Ge0rG dwd: an afternoon of talks? Sure
  562. Guus We can have jonas’ banner link to it
  563. Guus There's a start.
  564. Zash There's these sprint things
  565. dwd Guus, I'll scribble some text.
  566. dwd Zash, You mean the hackathon type things? The IETF seems to get people to come to those.
  567. Guus Then add the sprint thing (cc pep. )
  568. jonas’ ohmygod
  569. jonas’ `npm i` then run `grunt` to compile Sass.
  570. jonas’ why
  571. jonas’ I take my "I can do a banner" back
  572. Guus Ok, I'm starting my car engine, afk.
  573. Zash dwd: something something ask pep.
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  575. dwd jonas’, This is why I said I would "scribble some text".
  576. Zash jonas’: what in the what and also why?
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  579. pep. !
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  585. jonas’ https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/498 dwd, Guus
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  591. Kev I think running a Real Conference for XMPP might be a good idea.
  592. Ge0rG Yes, and that doesn't need to be the Summit
  593. Zash Doit
  594. dwd Kev, I agree, but I think adapting the Summit to increase engagement probably gives the most overall benefit.
  595. Kev I don't think "We've got a room in the Cisco offices for a couple of days" is really it, though. What we do is perfect (well, YKWIM) for what we get out of it, which is advancing the state of XMPP with technical discussions, but a long way off being appealing as a Conference.
  596. Kev Which isn't to say we couldn't do a thing instead of the Summit (in it's usual form) instead, at the same time
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  599. dwd Well, if we re-cast the bulk of the Summit as being "workshops" and "open panels", it might work, but I take your point.
  600. dwd nips off to pick up son.
  601. Kev It might, but I don't think one room at Cisco is what we need for this.
  602. Kev There's nothing stopping us doing a Conference and having protocol advancement sessions, either.
  603. jonas’ except manpower
  604. Kev But probably not all of it, and I think it needs more prior organisation than a Summit.
  605. Ge0rG Those are separate goals - make Summit look more enterprisey while keeping the content / make a conference appealing to commercial xmpp users
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  609. Kev There's "Try to make the Summit easy to expense for the usual sort of crowd" and "draw more people to the Summit"
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  620. Erkan Files > There's "Try to make the Summit easy to expense for the usual sort of crowd" and "draw more people to the Summit" Does that mean that newbies should be able to participate and understand most of the "things" there?
  621. Zash Depends on what kind of newbie
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  624. Erkan Files Like me
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  627. ralphm So usually there is a bunch of discussion on protocol, like the last few times with MIX.
  628. ralphm Some of those can be really indepth, some not so.
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  631. Zash What kind of participant would such an event aim for?
  632. ralphm So it depends on whether newbie means: “I haven't been around for long”, or “I don't know much about the protocols”
  633. ralphm I also want to note that we potentially have more rooms this year. Rudy (of Cisco) wrote: “I did in the meanwhile book the rooms Cassiopea and Electra (can be combined to a single larger, wider space) as well as the adjacent room Centaurus which you could use as a break room for speakers, organisers, logistics, ….”
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  641. Erkan Files ralphm: Where is Cisco located
  642. ralphm Diegem
  643. ralphm https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_23
  644. Zash https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/29455013
  645. Erkan Files > So it depends on whether newbie means: “I haven't been around for long”, or “I don't know much about the protocols” I dont know much about the protocolls. My fear is that just the time and this MUC arent enough to get out of this kind of newbie status...
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  659. lovetox what about https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/jingle-xtls.html
  660. lovetox how long does stuff stay in the inbox?
  661. lovetox forever?
  662. Zash until the end of time
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  665. Neustradamus mrDoctorWho
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  689. jonas’ lovetox, it’s never deleted
  690. pep. https://dpaste.de/BjkD/raw something like that for sprints would do? thoughts?
  691. pep. I'll send a patch
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  695. ralphm Sure!
  696. pep. https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/499
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  698. Guus I'm back home
  699. Guus Thanks for all of the ideas, people
  700. jonas’ wb
  701. Guus I'd suggest keeping the summit pretty much as-is, and have another, more conferency, event, at another date.
  702. Guus I simply like the summit format - it has its own value.
  703. jonas’ I tend to agree, even though I only participated remotely
  704. Guus side note: the Cisco offices are not publicly accessible.
  705. jonas’ (I’ll have to figure out how to do that this year :/)
  706. Guus for a conferency-type of deal, we might want to consider using a different venue
  707. jonas’ agreed
  708. Zash has left
  709. pep. I'm all for this new idea :)
  710. pep. well, maybe not new idea
  711. pep. But I want to see it implemented
  712. Guus In any case, I'd suggest to not deviate to much from the Summit format for the upcoming event - as it's close, I'd like to avoid confusion.
  713. jonas’ very much +1
  714. pep. Sure
  715. jonas’ btw, I’m happy to hack in more crappy inline CSS to make this fancier: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/498
  716. jonas’ but I’m at the limits of my creativity
  717. jonas’ so if anyone provides a mockup, I’m happy to try to achieve that
  718. Guus jonas’ it looks great to me - although I'd prefer a flashy / contrasting color, to pull in attention
  719. pep. nit: can this be vcentered?
  720. pep. the text inside the box
  721. Guus and cente....whathesaid
  722. jonas’ centering is trivial (and you probably mean hcenter)
  723. pep. I mean vcenter
  724. jonas’ please suggest colors, I’m really bad at picking those
  725. jonas’ pep., oh, you’re right
  726. Guus reddish or yellowish
  727. jonas’ Guus, I guessed that much
  728. Guus I actually ment vcenter 🙂
  729. jonas’ the details are the tricky part
  730. pep. vcentering was still one of the fun things to do when ran away from "the web"
  731. jonas’ in this case, I just had to kill the margin-bottom of the p which holds the text
  732. Guus jonas’ we use this blue for active menus: maybe that'd work: #008CBA
  733. jonas’ makes the link unreadable obviously
  734. jonas’ I could make the entire thing clickable though
  735. jonas’ which would do the trick
  736. Guus yeah, I suck at this more than you do 😃
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  739. jonas’ https://sotecware.net/images/dont-puush-me/OSJcUNBVjbMmS8ipFMSXmQUiLGu7U6qA7XjNO1t-3lQ.png
  740. jonas’ I think this is fair
  741. genofire has joined
  742. pep. LGTM
  743. goffi has joined
  744. jonas’ updated the PR: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/498
  745. Guus
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  747. goffi If I get it well, I find this comment deeply depressing: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18847472
  748. goffi Telehash is a project from Jeremie Miller right?
  749. Guus well, it's an answer to a direct question on the status of telehash: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18827032
  750. Guus so it's not an unsolicited "by the way, look at this" type of comment.
  751. goffi Guus: yes, and it's coming from the Telehash core team apparently.
  752. goffi Guus: no that's not my point, my point is that Telehash, a project founded by Jeremie Miller, creator of Jabber, is using Slack to communicate.
  753. jonas’ looking at the screenshot after a while, this looks *so* much more alive now
  754. jonas’ with the upcoming event and all
  755. jonas’ we should be doing this for all our upcoming events
  756. Guus @jonas` definitely.
  757. jonas’ I wonder whether we can somehow integrate this with the blog, so that we don’t have to micro-manage tihs, but I don’t think that’s easy
  758. pep. jonas’, sprints and all?
  759. jonas’ yes
  760. goffi yes the banner looks nice.
  761. Guus i'd love to replace that top-right wiki thing
  762. jonas’ top-right wiki thing?
  763. fippo goffi: temas was one of the folks running jabberstudio.org back in the early days :-|
  764. goffi fippo: that's even more depressing :(
  765. Guus jonas’ https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Main_Page, top right, "upcoming events"
  766. jonas’ ahh
  767. jonas’ it needs an update, too
  768. jonas’ I’m going ahead and deleting the past stuff
  769. Guus I'd love for the website to become more 'active' or 'community driven', or whatver
  770. jonas’ unlikely to happen with the current framework
  771. jonas’ we need to figure out why it doesn’t build correctly locally
  772. Guus jonas’ please do, but move them to the archive page.
  773. jonas’ which archive pages
  774. jonas’ which archive page?
  775. Guus see link in box below 'recent events' 🙂
  776. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  777. Guus what I typically do is move 'upcoming' to 'recent', and move the last few 'recents' to the archive.
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  779. jonas’ ugh
  780. jonas’ I’m incompetent sometimes
  781. jonas’ also, doing like three things at the same time while having had way not enough sleep isn’t good for me
  782. jonas’ fixing
  783. Guus hehe
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  786. goffi oh cool, Evgeny message was a misunderstanding.
  787. Guus also, it might be good to mention that the bar for adding/modifying the website is a lot lower than some people might think. I invite everyone to suggest changes.
  788. jonas’ Guus, does that look good to you? https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Main_Page
  789. Guus jonas’ sure, thanks.
  790. Guus it's no biggy either way
  791. jonas’ regarding the website bar: it is non-trivial to test the website locally due to the strict version requirements on pelican
  792. jonas’ not to mention that CSS changes require some (possibly web "standard", but still) npm installation stuff
  793. Guus right, it might currently be hard to apply a change, tehcnically, but I had a discussion last week where people where under the impression that only a few people get to decide what goes on the website
  794. jonas’ effectively, only a few people do ;-)
  795. jonas’ tohse with power over the uhge green merge button
  796. Guus right, but I'd _love_ to change that
  797. jonas’ I don’t
  798. Guus sure, there are a few gatekeepers, but content-wise, I'd love it live more.
  799. jonas’ yes
  800. Guus PRs are excellent
  801. Guus for this.
  802. jonas’ yes
  803. pep. If a gate-keeper could merge or review my PR for the sprints that'd be great :)
  804. Guus pep. I actually added a comment 🙂
  805. jonas’ I second Guus’ comment
  806. pep. heh, sure I can change that. So I'd reverse the order of the list as well right
  807. Guus (also, Seve , I'm painfully aware that there's still your PR to review)
  808. jonas’ what’s blocking that?
  809. Guus my time.
  810. Guus or attention span
  811. Guus simply didn't get around to it.
  812. jonas’ I mean, is this a content or a technical issue which needs to be reviewed?
  813. jonas’ note that one cannot test the menu locally with current pelican versions as of now
  814. pep. Should I add dates in these lists?
  815. jonas’ pep., dates would be good, especially for upcoming
  816. Guus pep. if you think it's helpful to interested people, yeah!
  817. jonas’ try to answer where, when, and if possible, what
  818. Guus jonas’ I simply haven't taken the time to look at it yet.
  819. pep. What is usually a bit difficult, as it's discussed really close to the date
  820. pep. Except for Brussels maybe where it was said it would be about UX from the start
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  823. Guus pep. do something like: "medio January"
  824. waqas has joined
  825. Guus "or Q1 2019"
  826. jonas’ I sense a misunderstanding
  827. pep. hmm?
  828. Guus misunderstanding?
  829. pep. Is it me or there's a lot of latin being used in this community? :P
  830. jonas’ Guus, aren’t the sprint dates fixed?
  831. jonas’ like, konwn
  832. jonas’ like, known
  833. pep. They are
  834. jonas’ goddamnit
  835. pep. Well, at some point
  836. jonas’ so I think that Guus misread your sentence "What is usually a bit difficult, as it's discussed really close to the date" (which I did too)
  837. pep. "What" is usually a bit difficult
  838. jonas’ yeah
  839. jjrh has left
  840. pep. https://bpaste.net/raw/57647708077f ?
  841. pep. Not sure how that will show
  842. Guus Aaah, I was under the impression that the final date was known only pretty close to the event.
  843. Guus so, a misunderstanding indeed. 🙂
  844. jonas’ pep., so, yeah, exact dates please
  845. jonas’ this was just confusion
  846. Guus pep, if you have actual dates (days), I'd use those.
  847. Guus yup, sorry for that.
  848. pep. hmm, brussels is two not consecutive days, in different months
  849. pep. That's going to be annoying
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  852. Guus hehe, whatever works 🙂 I'll not twist your arm behind your back to have exact dates 🙂
  853. Guus I'm already very happy that this goes on the website in the first place
  854. pep. Thanks, I appreciate
  855. pep. I like my arm very much
  856. pep. I like my arm very much where it is
  857. jonas’ pep., what
  858. jonas’ I don’t get it
  859. jonas’ if it’s two different events, it should get two entries
  860. jonas’ so you can put exact dates on each?
  861. pep. It's the "same" event, just that the summit "appeared" in between :P
  862. jonas’ sorry, I think I’m too tired to follow this
  863. pep. I think roel wanted to do two days, but asking people to be there tuesday _and_ wednesday was a bit too much, considering most of us are going to the summit and fosdem.
  864. pep. So they're going to do 30th (wed), and there's something that might happen on the 1st, at fosdem maybe, I don't know much
  865. jonas’ I see
  866. Guus pep. just add wednesday, and note on the wiki page that there might be a follow-up after FOSDEM
  867. jonas’ I’d just list "Jan 30th, Feb 1st, 2019 (around FOSDEM), Brussels" as link text
  868. pep. *At fosdem
  869. jonas’ or just Jan 30th, that’d probably work too
  870. pep. yeah
  871. Guus I'd be happy with any of the above. Go for it 🙂
  872. pep. Should I use british of usican on the website?
  873. pep. Should I use british or usican on the website?
  874. pep. (tired)
  875. jonas’ so tired
  876. jonas’ go for US when in doubt
  877. igoose has left
  878. jonas’ we use it in XEPs, too
  879. igoose has joined
  880. Guus use letters for months
  881. Guus and avoid confusion
  882. jonas’ yeah
  883. jonas’ or ISO format, but words read better in the list
  884. pep. "March 30-31st, 2019." ?
  885. Guus I'd not use the year
  886. Guus maybe in the archive
  887. jonas’ I’d add the year
  888. jonas’ you can never be sure whether a website is kept up-to-date
  889. Guus but for the upcoming events, they should be sufficiently close
  890. pep. I would add the year as well, it can be confusing otherwise
  891. Guus shrugs.
  892. jonas’ and when reading a list, it’s always good to see that right away
  893. pep. and yeah what jonas’ says
  894. jonas’ pep., that format looks readable to me
  895. Guus is still not going to twist arms.
  896. jonas’ I’m worried about the "still" :)
  897. pep. :D
  898. Guus got to keep the suspense goin' 🙂
  899. jonas’ :D
  900. pep. https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/499
  901. Guus Was dwd going to write a text descirbing the summit?
  902. jonas’ I’m not sure
  903. jonas’ pep., "March" is now duplicated in the list item
  904. pep. Ah fail.
  905. jonas’ I’d also probably have put it this way: * [Brussels, January 30th, 2019](...) (around FOSDEM)
  906. jonas’ but that’s just my preference
  907. jonas’ not going to twist arms, either
  908. pep. Please stop threatening my arms
  909. jonas’ I am not threatening your (or anybodies) arms :)
  910. Guus time to get creative with the body parts?
  911. Guus takes out his trusty IRC-trout...
  912. pep. not the trout!
  913. jonas’ :D
  914. jonas’ (t)rusty, probably
  915. pep. here, pushed again
  916. jonas’ also, isn’t trusty EOL ;-)
  917. Guus unrelated side note: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/497
  918. jonas’ I like it now, Guus
  919. Guus this concerns me
  920. jonas’ I like it now, pep.
  921. jonas’ Guus, it concerns me, too
  922. jonas’ board should definitely look into that
  923. jonas’ I would’ve made a PR
  924. Guus push the button, jonas’ !
  925. jonas’ but I’m not sure where we list sponsors, typically
  926. jonas’ and how
  927. jonas’ and such
  928. jonas’ youknow
  929. neshtaxmpp has joined
  930. jonas’ Guus, as board member, can you maybe comment that the Board will take this seriously?
  931. jonas’ leaving this uncommented for 3 days is... a bit meh
  932. Guus you're right
  933. jonas’ I HIT THE BUTTON
  934. jonas’ :)
  935. jonas’ (I am tired and getting silly)
  936. pep. How long does the website take to build again?
  937. Guus ages.
  938. jonas’ Guus, no
  939. jonas’ in total I think 10 - 15 minutes until it’s live
  940. pep. k, thanks
  941. Guus that's what I said.
  942. Guus 🙂
  943. jonas’ Guus, you’re not an editor, obviously
  944. Guus hahaha
  945. jonas’ that takes 60 minutes+
  946. Guus touche
  947. jonas’ so ... the website is rather fast.
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  949. jonas’ we have a super-fancy banner on https://xmpp.org now :) thanks for the input :)
  950. pep. jonas’, we need the full package, incremental builds etc. :P
  951. pep. Or do you have that already
  952. jonas’ no.
  953. jonas’ then it would take like 5 minutes, not 60
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  957. Guus well, while we're being effective: is there anything that we can do to speed https://github.com/xmpp-observatory along?
  958. jonas’ somebody needs to figure out how to teach the involved DNS relsover libraries about the new root zone keys
  959. jonas’ that’s the current remaining issue with xmpp.net
  960. pep. https://xmpp.org/community/events.html "Krakow (soon)", any idea when this "soon" is due for?
  961. jonas’ (that I am aware of)
  962. jonas’ pep., remove it
  963. jonas’ (or maybe check the git-blame first)
  964. pep. Also same page, it references Summit 22
  965. Guus jonas’ I'm not even sure I understand what you said.
  966. jonas’ pep., clean it, while you’re at it
  967. Guus pep. also, that's the link to last years' summit
  968. jonas’ Guus, xmpp.net works, except for the issue that it cannot validate DNSSEC currently. So any zone which uses DNSSEC appears to be broken to it. This needs fixing.
  969. pep. Guus, yes
  970. Guus you can safely remove all events, they're from last year, at best.
  971. jonas’ (it cannot validate DNSSEC because it uses the old keys for the root zone which have been exchanged recently in a surprisingly ostentatious ceremony)
  972. jonas’ Guus, so somebody needs to teach the libraries which are baked into the xmppoke docker thing about the new keys
  973. Guus I don't know how DNS zone / key / ceremony works.
  974. jonas’ it is fun
  975. Guus is this a configuration thingy, or a code change thingy?
  976. jonas’ probably code change thingy
  977. jonas’ because the keys are embedded in the library
  978. jonas’ worst case one needs to patch the binary file
  979. pep. https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/500
  980. Guus pep, please remove all events
  981. Guus they're from 2017
  982. Alex has joined
  983. pep. oh
  984. Guus oh, actually
  985. Guus no
  986. Guus the berlin one was from last december
  987. Yagiza has left
  988. pep. The berlin meetup is ongoing
  989. pep. I mean it's recurring, rather
  990. Guus stockholm can be removed
  991. pep. FOSDEM can also be updated
  992. Guus london can be removed
  993. Guus and Paris is also outdated
  994. Guus so, only keep Berlin 🙂
  995. pep. pushed
  996. Guus looks good. I'll let Travis do its thing, but am happy to merge
  997. Guus Thanks for doing all this guys!
  998. pep. goffi, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/FOSDEM_2019 do you mind adding your talk if you have time?
  999. pep. There's also JC in there
  1000. pep. Dele I guess
  1001. goffi pep.: yes I will, but probably tomorrow, start to be tired now
  1002. pep. thanks
  1003. Guus jonas’ are you technically capable of doing the DNS zone magic that you just referred to, or should I direct my pretty-pleases at MattJ or others?
  1004. goffi pep.: please ping me again if I haven't done tomorrow evening
  1005. vaulor has joined
  1006. pep. k
  1007. MattJ Guus, direct at me
  1008. MattJ But I have less than zero time at the moment
  1009. Guus MattJ I have cherries-on-top to offer, to sweeten the deal.
  1010. Guus ah
  1011. Guus is there anyone else capable of doing this?
  1012. Guus with zero+ time available, hopefully?
  1013. pep. MattJ, does that mean Guus owes you time now
  1014. pep. For asking
  1015. MattJ It's just a matter of updating the Dockerfile to install a newer version of a dependency from a package that Zash already made
  1016. Guus pep. I have a tab going with him 🙂
  1017. MattJ and modifying it to stop using that dependency as a submodule which it currently compiles itself iirc
  1018. Guus oh, I can do that, I think
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  1025. Guus MattJ / Zash can you identify said dependency, and the replacement package?
  1026. Guus luaunbound?
  1027. Guus (sounds DNSsie?)
  1028. pep. yes
  1029. pep. I mean, it is dnssie
  1030. Half-ShotX has joined
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  1032. Guus I'm guestimating that this is the desired fix: https://code.zash.se/luaunbound/rev/3c3f017f35ac
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  1035. oli lovetox: why are you interested in XTLS? client-to-client as in Jingle or something else?
  1036. lovetox yes jingle, but im not interested in it, Gajim already implements it
  1037. lovetox im just wondering why it never made it experimental
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  1042. oli lovetox: encrypted jingle?
  1043. oli ok, yes, it's in the code.
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  1045. Guus https://github.com/xmpp-observatory/xmppoke/pull/3 <-- incredibly naive copy/paste thingy
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  1050. Guus jonas’ how do I test this fix locally? I need to run against a zone with DNS SEC?
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  1053. Guus Hmm, I'm getting 'bogus dnssec' banners, which probably is an indication of failure. 😕
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  1072. MattJ Guus: yes, that's the bug
  1073. MattJ Pretty sure I confirmed a fix in a temporary container where I installed the package manually
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  1078. Guus MattJ: im unsure what I'm doing. Locally, it didn't appear to work. Maybe I need to provide the commit message suggested trust file somehow.
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