Hi. I don't get Evgeny answer, can anybody explain me how clustered database are affected by the fact that we use or not an attribute to specify level of ordering?
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waqas
goffi: Most distributed and replicated databases tend to be eventually consistent, such that one db node may have a different modification timestamp for an item than another node in the cluster.
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waqas
(mysql and postgres for example have async replication, they are ACID for a node, but not for the cluster; many nosql dbs are similar)
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goffi
waqas: so he's not actually answering to the question (which is about adding an attribute to handle the order vs using order of <order/> elements), but talking about the feature in general, and only arguing about the modification time right?
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goffi
And this sounds like implementation details, nothing prevent to add a field to the database which is set when the item is received, before any replication.
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goffi
"order by" is used in SQL which can be used with clusters, so I don't see how this is different here.
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waqas
goffi: Consistent order for a mutable ordering value like last-modified time (vs an "immutable one", like creation-time) really works in SQL dbs with a single node, or which have cluster-wide write locks.
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waqas
In mysql for example, a write to one db replica does may take some time before it's written to the rest of the cluster.
waqas
So different nodes in the cluster may have a different understanding of last-modified time at any given point in time
waqas
Pagination is tough as well. You request page 1. Then you request page 2, except page 1 results may already be invalid by the time you ask for page 2.
waqas
Since last modified order is changing all the time
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waqas
I don't want to speak for Evgeny, I'm just assuming the above is what he means.
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Zash
Database synchronization is hard.
goffi
waqas: pagination issue is already mentioned in RSM. I'm not against adding a flag in the result saying it may be inconsistent.
jonas’
goffi, no pagination is not covered with RSM as soon as you order by a mutable field
jonas’
well, it is covered
jonas’
but it’s not safe anymore
goffi
"The set of items that match a query MAY change over time, even during the time that a requesting entity pages through the result set (e.g., a set of chatrooms, since rooms can be created and destroyed at any time). The paging protocol outlined in this section is designed so that entities MAY provide the following features" (§2.2)
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MattJ
I'm confused by your one email which says " the order affect the whole archive, not just a result set" and in a following email "it's true that the order inside the page is not influenced."
goffi
waqas: thanks about the explanation. I think this should be mentioned in the XEP, and maybe a flag could be added.
goffi
MattJ: the first message was because yesterday it didn't seemed clear that the ordering was on the full history (i.e. we are not ordering the says 10 items we ask for, but we are ordering the whole archive and getting the 10 first items from that)
MattJ
Right
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goffi
Matthew: the second is because there is currently no mechanism to say, inside the page result we get, that we want the first item to be the most recent or the least recent. Currently the XEP state (not explictly enough apparently, I'll fix that), that the first item of the page is always the most recent, regarless if we are getting the result normally, or backward using RSM.
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MattJ
I'm personally leaning towards just having another field in the existing MAM query form, to keep things simple
MattJ
and then we can fix pubsub separately
goffi
waqas: by the way, the last modification time is currently the default ordering using XEP-0060 without anything else. There is actually no "modification" notion, it's just a new item, but that the result it the same.
MattJ
I think the problems are slightly different, because you can't update a MAM entry (and never will be able to)
goffi
MattJ: you mean extending XEP-0313 directly or havint a new XEP which extend MAM ?
MattJ
I was planning to extend XEP-0313
Zash
MattJ: Message corrections...
MattJ
and the problem with MAM isn't which property to sort on, it's simply which direction to sort in
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MattJ
The problem with pubsub is not the direction, but the property
Kev
> I think the problems are slightly different, because you can't update a MAM entry (and never will be able to)
Not 100% true, because of redaction, but close enough.
MattJ
and another reason not to solve both with the same protocol, is that the server implementation for both of these is quite different
goffi
MattJ: what about MAM with Pubsub (which is the case I'm most interested in) ? The item can be overwritten there.
MattJ
Yet the order-by XEP only allows discovery of support for <order>, not within a specific protocol
Ge0rG
cant we just implement SQL replication over XMPP and be done?
goffi
I can fix that and only use is with MAM for Pubsub, it doesn't really make sense in the other case anyway.
MattJ
I don't know - I have nothing to do with MAM-with-pubsub, never have, and I'm still unconvinced whether I ever will
goffi
I think filtering should have been a pubsub thing instead of a MAM thing, but today it's the only tool we have to filter items in Pubsub.
goffi
and it's a really important feature for most of use cases I have with Pubsub.
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goffi
the MAM example in the order-by protoXEP is about Pubsub
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MattJ
if we add order reversal to MAM, interaction with order-by would get confusing if that also let you select asc/desc
MattJ
Otherwise, they could probably live together
MattJ
But I don't know if I can imagine implementing it personally
MattJ
Hmm
MattJ
Maybe I can, in the context of pubsub, but basically it would be a separate implementation
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Zash
PubSub in Prosody is squeezed through an abstract LRU cache, so that level would have to be thrown out and rebuilt
MattJ
goffi, does a config item on the pubsub node definitely not fulfil your requirements?
MattJ
(a config item that says "sort by update" or "sort by creation")
Zash
"keep order on ower-write"
MattJ
or do you need this control at the time of query?
Zash
There's no update in PubSub, only implicit deletion
waqas
I think the basic use-case being supported is just showing microblog posts by time they were first posted vs time when they were last modified. Last modified is current state, right?
goffi
MattJ: for some use cases I need to do it at query time. For instance for a forum, I want to be able to have last modified message popup on top, or have it by creation date.
goffi
Zash: no there is no update in Pubsub, that's why the "date of modification" is explained in the XEP, the business logic is changed.
goffi
waqas: last modified is current state yes.
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ralphm
The idea is to _add_ business logic so that overwriting implies updating, right?
goffi
ralphm: yes
goffi
But also to have a way, later, to order by a field for instance (e.g. prioriy of a ticket, or evaluation of an answer to a question).
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dwd
Hi folks.
Ge0rG
Hey dwd, back from holidays?
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dwd
Yeah, holidays plus family emergency, unfortunately.
Ge0rG
dwd: sorry to hear that. Hope things are normalizing again
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dwd
So I have an interesting problem with the XMPP Summit, and I wondered if anyone else had the same issue.
dwd
My new boss said he looked at the details for the XMPP Summit, and concluded it wasn't happening because there was nothing on the website and wiki page.
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jonas’
the wiki page doesn’t look exactly empty tom e?
Guus
dwd - I am happy to facilitate later tonight
Guus
I'm about on my way back home, which will take some time.
Guus
In the mean time, if someone feels like drafting a blog post... 🙂
jonas’
we do have a blog post, don’t we?
dwd
jonas’, The Agenda is empty, for instance.
jonas’
https://xmpp.org/2018/11/xmpp-summit-23/
dwd
jonas’, And the blog post *is* there, but several articles down and not easily visible from the website.
jonas’
(that’s true, which is why I didn’t link it in the first place)
Guus
so, some kind of banner on the home page?
jonas’
the summit is members-only, isn’t it?
Ge0rG
maybe linking the blog post from the wiki would be a start?
Zash
pin it
dwd
jonas’, Not as far as I know.
Guus
ok, I need to go now
dwd
Guus, I'll catch you later...
jonas’
dwd, if what you say is true, a banner on the website would make sense, indeed
Guus
but I would welcome more exposure
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jonas’
I can probably draft some HTML for a b anner on the website, but someone will have to do the design fine-tuning
Ge0rG
jonas’: what about a box of upcoming events?
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jonas’
Ge0rG, complexity
jonas’
I want this simple now
Ge0rG
it could be on the wiki as well, and feature elections and the like
Ge0rG
speaking of which... there is still no election page for Q1
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Guus
> I can probably draft some HTML for a b anner on the website, but someone will have to do the design fine-tuning
💓
jonas’
that’s a nice box you got there
dwd
jonas’, The problem isn't just a banner. The problem is that if it weren't for my insisting it's really A Thing, my manager wouldn't have believed it's a real event.
jonas’
dwd, yes, I see your point
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jonas’
however, the banner is something I can do, and which I realised when browsing $anotherOrgs page recently that it is something the XSF lacks
Guus
The banner, linking to a Thing-definion
Ge0rG
dwd: isn't that kind of symptomatic for XSF events?
jonas’
(announcing the event loudly on the main page)
Zash
SCAM needs a bigger marketing budget?
dwd
Ge0rG, Yes.
dwd
But here's the thing - right now, XMPP jobs, whilst relatively few, are very highly paid. There seems to be a lot of XMPP about, in some well-resourced areas. We should be getting really good attendence.
dwd
So I'm wondering if the reason we're not is because it's not seen as a normal corporate-friendly event.
jonas’
Cobol jobs have the same classification
jonas’
dwd, for starters, from my perception, summit was members-only
jonas’
we’re not really advertising it to non-members
dwd
jonas’, No, and that can't be a good thing.
Ge0rG
from my perception, Summit is heavily biased to new protocol design, which is not typically something for newcomers
dwd
jonas’, The Dinner *is* members-only, though we've rarely enforced that.
Ge0rG
The one time I attended The Dinner, I wasn't a member.
dwd
Ge0rG, Yes, but we had an interesting session abotu where XMPP was used last time, which was really fascinating to me.
Zash
Members +1 ish?
dwd
Zash, Roughly.
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dwd
But I wonder if we could [re-]introduce talks and other things that look a little more conference-y. We've done so before, but I think that making the Summit look a little more professional (ie, corporate) would help people expense travel to it, and therefore attend.
jonas’
seems legit
Ge0rG
dwd: that sounds like a great idea. Maybe have one day of talks and one day of workshops?
Ge0rG
Even just calling what we do every year "workshops" will already make it more enterprisey
jonas’
not that I consider myself to have a chance to attend on company budget, considering that we’re so not XMPP
Zash
That sounds fine
Guus
Let's add this to the agenda of the upcoming summit?
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Guus
Also, I would not mind having more than one per year
Ge0rG
there used to be two, across the pond
Guus
We're we could differentiate
dwd
Ge0rG, I was thinking just an afternoon to start with, but yes.
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Guus
dwd: would you mind drafting a semi static summit event description for on the website?
Ge0rG
dwd: an afternoon of talks? Sure
Guus
We can have jonas’ banner link to it
Guus
There's a start.
Zash
There's these sprint things
dwd
Guus, I'll scribble some text.
dwd
Zash, You mean the hackathon type things? The IETF seems to get people to come to those.
Guus
Then add the sprint thing (cc pep. )
jonas’
ohmygod
jonas’
`npm i` then run `grunt` to compile Sass.
jonas’
why
jonas’
I take my "I can do a banner" back
Guus
Ok, I'm starting my car engine, afk.
Zash
dwd: something something ask pep.
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dwd
jonas’, This is why I said I would "scribble some text".
I think running a Real Conference for XMPP might be a good idea.
Ge0rG
Yes, and that doesn't need to be the Summit
Zash
Doit
dwd
Kev, I agree, but I think adapting the Summit to increase engagement probably gives the most overall benefit.
Kev
I don't think "We've got a room in the Cisco offices for a couple of days" is really it, though. What we do is perfect (well, YKWIM) for what we get out of it, which is advancing the state of XMPP with technical discussions, but a long way off being appealing as a Conference.
Kev
Which isn't to say we couldn't do a thing instead of the Summit (in it's usual form) instead, at the same time
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dwd
Well, if we re-cast the bulk of the Summit as being "workshops" and "open panels", it might work, but I take your point.
dwdnips off to pick up son.
Kev
It might, but I don't think one room at Cisco is what we need for this.
Kev
There's nothing stopping us doing a Conference and having protocol advancement sessions, either.
jonas’
except manpower
Kev
But probably not all of it, and I think it needs more prior organisation than a Summit.
Ge0rG
Those are separate goals - make Summit look more enterprisey while keeping the content / make a conference appealing to commercial xmpp users
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Kev
There's "Try to make the Summit easy to expense for the usual sort of crowd" and "draw more people to the Summit"
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Erkan Files
> There's "Try to make the Summit easy to expense for the usual sort of crowd" and "draw more people to the Summit"
Does that mean that newbies should be able to participate and understand most of the "things" there?
Zash
Depends on what kind of newbie
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Erkan Files
Like me
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ralphm
So usually there is a bunch of discussion on protocol, like the last few times with MIX.
ralphm
Some of those can be really indepth, some not so.
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Zash
What kind of participant would such an event aim for?
ralphm
So it depends on whether newbie means: “I haven't been around for long”, or “I don't know much about the protocols”
ralphm
I also want to note that we potentially have more rooms this year. Rudy (of Cisco) wrote: “I did in the meanwhile book the rooms Cassiopea and Electra (can be combined to a single larger, wider space) as well as the adjacent room Centaurus which you could use as a break room for speakers, organisers, logistics, ….”
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Erkan Files
ralphm: Where is Cisco located
ralphm
Diegem
ralphm
https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_23
Zash
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/29455013
Erkan Files
> So it depends on whether newbie means: “I haven't been around for long”, or “I don't know much about the protocols”
I dont know much about the protocolls.
My fear is that just the time and this MUC arent enough to get out of this kind of newbie status...
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lovetox
what about https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/jingle-xtls.html
lovetox
how long does stuff stay in the inbox?
lovetox
forever?
Zash
until the end of time
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Neustradamus
mrDoctorWho
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jonas’
lovetox, it’s never deleted
pep.
https://dpaste.de/BjkD/raw something like that for sprints would do? thoughts?
pep.
I'll send a patch
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ralphm
Sure!
pep.
https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/499
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Guus
I'm back home
Guus
Thanks for all of the ideas, people
jonas’
wb
Guus
I'd suggest keeping the summit pretty much as-is, and have another, more conferency, event, at another date.
Guus
I simply like the summit format - it has its own value.
jonas’
I tend to agree, even though I only participated remotely
Guus
side note: the Cisco offices are not publicly accessible.
jonas’
(I’ll have to figure out how to do that this year :/)
Guus
for a conferency-type of deal, we might want to consider using a different venue
jonas’
agreed
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pep.
I'm all for this new idea :)
pep.
well, maybe not new idea
pep.
But I want to see it implemented
Guus
In any case, I'd suggest to not deviate to much from the Summit format for the upcoming event - as it's close, I'd like to avoid confusion.
jonas’
very much +1
pep.
Sure
jonas’
btw, I’m happy to hack in more crappy inline CSS to make this fancier: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/498
jonas’
but I’m at the limits of my creativity
jonas’
so if anyone provides a mockup, I’m happy to try to achieve that
Guus
jonas’ it looks great to me - although I'd prefer a flashy / contrasting color, to pull in attention
pep.
nit: can this be vcentered?
pep.
the text inside the box
Guus
and cente....whathesaid
jonas’
centering is trivial (and you probably mean hcenter)
pep.
I mean vcenter
jonas’
please suggest colors, I’m really bad at picking those
jonas’
pep., oh, you’re right
Guus
reddish or yellowish
jonas’
Guus, I guessed that much
Guus
I actually ment vcenter 🙂
jonas’
the details are the tricky part
pep.
vcentering was still one of the fun things to do when ran away from "the web"
jonas’
in this case, I just had to kill the margin-bottom of the p which holds the text
Guus
jonas’ we use this blue for active menus: maybe that'd work: #008CBA
what I typically do is move 'upcoming' to 'recent', and move the last few 'recents' to the archive.
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jonas’
ugh
jonas’
I’m incompetent sometimes
jonas’
also, doing like three things at the same time while having had way not enough sleep isn’t good for me
jonas’
fixing
Guus
hehe
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goffi
oh cool, Evgeny message was a misunderstanding.
Guus
also, it might be good to mention that the bar for adding/modifying the website is a lot lower than some people might think. I invite everyone to suggest changes.
jonas’
Guus, does that look good to you? https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Main_Page
Guus
jonas’ sure, thanks.
Guus
it's no biggy either way
jonas’
regarding the website bar: it is non-trivial to test the website locally due to the strict version requirements on pelican
jonas’
not to mention that CSS changes require some (possibly web "standard", but still) npm installation stuff
Guus
right, it might currently be hard to apply a change, tehcnically, but I had a discussion last week where people where under the impression that only a few people get to decide what goes on the website
jonas’
effectively, only a few people do ;-)
jonas’
tohse with power over the uhge green merge button
Guus
right, but I'd _love_ to change that
jonas’
I don’t
Guus
sure, there are a few gatekeepers, but content-wise, I'd love it live more.
jonas’
yes
Guus
PRs are excellent
Guus
for this.
jonas’
yes
pep.
If a gate-keeper could merge or review my PR for the sprints that'd be great :)
Guus
pep. I actually added a comment 🙂
jonas’
I second Guus’ comment
pep.
heh, sure I can change that. So I'd reverse the order of the list as well right
Guus
(also, Seve , I'm painfully aware that there's still your PR to review)
jonas’
what’s blocking that?
Guus
my time.
Guus
or attention span
Guus
simply didn't get around to it.
jonas’
I mean, is this a content or a technical issue which needs to be reviewed?
jonas’
note that one cannot test the menu locally with current pelican versions as of now
pep.
Should I add dates in these lists?
jonas’
pep., dates would be good, especially for upcoming
Guus
pep. if you think it's helpful to interested people, yeah!
jonas’
try to answer where, when, and if possible, what
Guus
jonas’ I simply haven't taken the time to look at it yet.
pep.
What is usually a bit difficult, as it's discussed really close to the date
pep.
Except for Brussels maybe where it was said it would be about UX from the start
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Guus
pep. do something like: "medio January"
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Guus
"or Q1 2019"
jonas’
I sense a misunderstanding
pep.
hmm?
Guus
misunderstanding?
pep.
Is it me or there's a lot of latin being used in this community? :P
if it’s two different events, it should get two entries
jonas’
so you can put exact dates on each?
pep.
It's the "same" event, just that the summit "appeared" in between :P
jonas’
sorry, I think I’m too tired to follow this
pep.
I think roel wanted to do two days, but asking people to be there tuesday _and_ wednesday was a bit too much, considering most of us are going to the summit and fosdem.
pep.
So they're going to do 30th (wed), and there's something that might happen on the 1st, at fosdem maybe, I don't know much
jonas’
I see
Guus
pep. just add wednesday, and note on the wiki page that there might be a follow-up after FOSDEM
jonas’
I’d just list "Jan 30th, Feb 1st, 2019 (around FOSDEM), Brussels" as link text
but I’m not sure where we list sponsors, typically
jonas’
and how
jonas’
and such
jonas’
youknow
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jonas’
Guus, as board member, can you maybe comment that the Board will take this seriously?
jonas’
leaving this uncommented for 3 days is... a bit meh
Guus
you're right
jonas’
I HIT THE BUTTON
jonas’
:)
jonas’
(I am tired and getting silly)
pep.
How long does the website take to build again?
Guus
ages.
jonas’
Guus, no
jonas’
in total I think 10 - 15 minutes until it’s live
pep.
k, thanks
Guus
that's what I said.
Guus
🙂
jonas’
Guus, you’re not an editor, obviously
Guus
hahaha
jonas’
that takes 60 minutes+
Guus
touche
jonas’
so ... the website is rather fast.
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jonas’
we have a super-fancy banner on https://xmpp.org now :) thanks for the input :)
pep.
jonas’, we need the full package, incremental builds etc. :P
pep.
Or do you have that already
jonas’
no.
jonas’
then it would take like 5 minutes, not 60
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Guus
well, while we're being effective: is there anything that we can do to speed https://github.com/xmpp-observatory along?
jonas’
somebody needs to figure out how to teach the involved DNS relsover libraries about the new root zone keys
jonas’
that’s the current remaining issue with xmpp.net
pep.
https://xmpp.org/community/events.html "Krakow (soon)", any idea when this "soon" is due for?
jonas’
(that I am aware of)
jonas’
pep., remove it
jonas’
(or maybe check the git-blame first)
pep.
Also same page, it references Summit 22
Guus
jonas’ I'm not even sure I understand what you said.
jonas’
pep., clean it, while you’re at it
Guus
pep. also, that's the link to last years' summit
jonas’
Guus, xmpp.net works, except for the issue that it cannot validate DNSSEC currently. So any zone which uses DNSSEC appears to be broken to it. This needs fixing.
pep.
Guus, yes
Guus
you can safely remove all events, they're from last year, at best.
jonas’
(it cannot validate DNSSEC because it uses the old keys for the root zone which have been exchanged recently in a surprisingly ostentatious ceremony)
jonas’
Guus, so somebody needs to teach the libraries which are baked into the xmppoke docker thing about the new keys
Guus
I don't know how DNS zone / key / ceremony works.
jonas’
it is fun
Guus
is this a configuration thingy, or a code change thingy?
jonas’
probably code change thingy
jonas’
because the keys are embedded in the library
jonas’
worst case one needs to patch the binary file
pep.
https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/500
Guus
pep, please remove all events
Guus
they're from 2017
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pep.
oh
Guus
oh, actually
Guus
no
Guus
the berlin one was from last december
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pep.
The berlin meetup is ongoing
pep.
I mean it's recurring, rather
Guus
stockholm can be removed
pep.
FOSDEM can also be updated
Guus
london can be removed
Guus
and Paris is also outdated
Guus
so, only keep Berlin 🙂
pep.
pushed
Guus
looks good. I'll let Travis do its thing, but am happy to merge
Guus
Thanks for doing all this guys!
pep.
goffi, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/FOSDEM_2019 do you mind adding your talk if you have time?
pep.
There's also JC in there
pep.
Dele I guess
goffi
pep.: yes I will, but probably tomorrow, start to be tired now
pep.
thanks
Guus
jonas’ are you technically capable of doing the DNS zone magic that you just referred to, or should I direct my pretty-pleases at MattJ or others?
goffi
pep.: please ping me again if I haven't done tomorrow evening
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pep.
k
MattJ
Guus, direct at me
MattJ
But I have less than zero time at the moment
Guus
MattJ I have cherries-on-top to offer, to sweeten the deal.
Guus
ah
Guus
is there anyone else capable of doing this?
Guus
with zero+ time available, hopefully?
pep.
MattJ, does that mean Guus owes you time now
pep.
For asking
MattJ
It's just a matter of updating the Dockerfile to install a newer version of a dependency from a package that Zash already made
Guus
pep. I have a tab going with him 🙂
MattJ
and modifying it to stop using that dependency as a submodule which it currently compiles itself iirc
Guus
oh, I can do that, I think
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Guus
MattJ / Zash can you identify said dependency, and the replacement package?
Guus
luaunbound?
Guus
(sounds DNSsie?)
pep.
yes
pep.
I mean, it is dnssie
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Guus
I'm guestimating that this is the desired fix: https://code.zash.se/luaunbound/rev/3c3f017f35ac
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oli
lovetox: why are you interested in XTLS? client-to-client as in Jingle or something else?
lovetox
yes jingle, but im not interested in it, Gajim already implements it
lovetox
im just wondering why it never made it experimental