Syndacedaniel (and others), I would love to hear your opinion on something. OMEMO has the issue of the key exchange not accounting for lost messages, that's why clients keep building sessions and reusing the same pre key until they get a response which tells them that the session was built successfully. I don't really like that solution. First of all I'm a little scared, because if a cryptographer tells you not to reuse a key, you should probably not reuse that key. Second it puts a lot of dirty hacky work on client devs, backing up the signal state before building a message and restoring it afterwards and stuff like that. So I was thinking about a different solution for a while and then I had the idea of just ignoring the issue altogether. Let's say you are really unlucky enough to lose the message containing the key exchange. You then send a second message, which gets delivered as usual. Your contact would notice that it can't decrypt the message and in reaction send a new key exchange back to you. So instead of one lost message, all the messages between the lost key exchange and the "healing" key exchange are lost. I would still consider that an acceptable trade for all the hassle and possibly insecurity that comes with the way clients currently handle that scenario.
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jonas’adding more ways to non-obviously lose messages with OMEMO doesn’t sound like a good thing to me
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Ge0rGIt can't get much worse, can it?
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waqasGe0rG: Don't jinx it
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Ge0rGCan't we just encrypt all our messages with deflate and be done?
jonas’encrypt :D
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Ge0rGI've got two semi-related questions for tomorrow's Board
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Ge0rG1. are pseudonymous membership applications allowed? (I can't see anything in https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/bylaws but that Board decides about the form of applications)
2. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0345.html which adresses this point with "no" is Deferred. Could Board please LC and advance it?
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jonas’(I had put it on my todo to add '345 to the board agenda)
Ge0rGjonas’: do you have agenda write access?
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jonas’yes
jonas’(I think)
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jonas’in my role as editor
Ge0rGjonas’: if it's scoped to your role, you probably can't bring in my #1
jonas’that’s true
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GuusI think it's important that there's little barriers for people to bring something up for discussion with the board. Trello is just a tool - don't be to shy about using it to put something on the board's agenda. Maybe put it in AOB if you're unsure.
Guus(tl;dr: go for it, jonas’ )
Ge0rGGuus: thanks!
Guusas personal feedback on the pseudonymous membership applications (I've not read up on it yet): why would this be desirable?
Guus(my gut does not like the concept, as it appears to conflict with transparency)
Ge0rGGuus: it does conflict with transparency indeed, and there are many debates of requiring a full name on different online platforms, with both sides suggesting many reasons.
ZashThey should join the secret shadow XSF instead
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waqasXXSF
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MarandaThat sounds like st else 😅😅😅
GuusZash the secret shadow XSF where they require you to sign up using the secret handshake and writing in blood? That's not 'bonding', that's DNA profiling.
Ge0rGI was just asked by a contact whether they could apply under a pseudonym, and I don't know their specific reasons. I'm not sure if this is relevant to a generic Board decision on whether to allow / deny them
Ge0rGXXXSF!
taRule 34!
waqasI know at least one individual who was rejected for applying under a pseudonym before
Ge0rGwaqas: I've heard that story.
GuusBear?
Marandasuggests dropping the multiple uppercase "X" alltogether 🤭🤭✨
Ge0rGI think they are multiple possible outcomes:
- legal name only
- pseudonyms allowed
- per-case decision of board (rather improbable outcome, I suppose)
Guuswell, on the one hand - we don't actually check up on the names provided anyway
Guuswe do have a requirement that not to many people are affiliated with the same organization, which might be a conflicting issue here.
Ge0rGGuus: yeah
GuusAlso, Members get to vote on things
pep.Maybe Ge0rG is not really named Georg. J'accuse!
KevNo, Bear wasn't for applying under a pseudonym, quite the opposite.
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Guushaving anonymous members would open the door for one person signing up multiple times, influencing votes
GuusBear signed up using his legal name, which no-one recognized, right?
KevHe applied not under a pseudonym, and no-one knew who he was except as Bear.
KevRight.
Ge0rGpep.: you had a chance to check my ID *and* to cross-sign pgp keys recently. I'm even a certified CACert assessor, orhowtheycallit
waqasNote that the real name policy isn't really enforced, as far as I've seen. Someone could make up a real sounding pseudonym and they'll likely get in.
waqasSo, the door to one person singing up multiple times isn't really closed at the moment.
Guusjonas’ / Ge0rG I added quick Trello items for both issues on Board's Trello Board.
Ge0rGGuus: thanks very much!
jonas’Guus, thx! :)
Guuswaqas I agree, and said as much. But still, ...
Ge0rGwaqas: I think that we are in a situation where it's hard enough to get a person to sign up *one* time. We need more volunteers!
Ge0rGAlso this is probably not the official Board response to that question ;)
Guusright 🙂
Ge0rGwhile speaking of Board responses... anybody seen peter lately?
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GuusI'd really like to know what the reasoning is behind wanting to sign up under a pseudonym
jonas’he replied on github on an issue a day or two ago
Ge0rGmaybe I need to PR for JabberSPAM after all?
GuusGe0rG Yeah, on github and in a mail sent earlier today/tonight
waqasWow, it was a decade back: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Solarius_Application_2008#About_my_anonimity
GuusPSA: if you are going to be at the Summit, it would be a Good Thing for your name to be on the attendance list in wiki, as that's what I'll use to get everyone access to the Cisco building.
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Guusah, thanks waqas - I didn't know about that one.
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GuusI'm not sure if either argument is a valid reason for us to accept anonymous signups. Not being a XSF member does not limit your freedom of speech. The other one is personal preference.
Guuswaqas do you remember if this persons membership rejection was specifically caused by the anonymity aspect of it?
waqasYes, I believe so
KevBut rejected by the members, IIRC.
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Kev(Which I might not)
GuusI'm not a free speech expert - did my comment above make sense?
KevI don't think not giving your name to an organisation of which you want to be a member is about free speech.
Ge0rGIt doesn't look like we have the minutes on the wiki.
Ge0rGKev: could you reword that with fewer negations, please?
KevAnd as we allow participation regardless of pseudonymity in our process, I don't see a reason we need to allow psedonymous members.
KevGe0rG: This isn't about free speech.
GuusThanks Kev
waqasI'm curious if there's any legal aspect here, in terms of the XSF's status as a non-profit
GuusI guestimate that at best, that's apply for registered officials of the org
GuusI guestimate that at best, that'd apply for registered officials of the org
waqasDoes the board count?
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Guusunsure.
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KevI'd have thought the XSF would need legal advice before accepting someone that they knew wasn't giving their real name. (Which isn't the same as being duped). So the path of least resistance seems to me to disallow pseudonyms.
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GuusI tend to agree with Kev - however, if there's a compelling reason, I'd be willing to consider allowing it on an individual base.
GuusMe not being able to think of one doesn't rule out that such reason does exist.
waqasAnother case was Daurnimator later on. He withdrew his application based on this. I don't recall any other cases.
waqasI have no strong opinions either way
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GuusIn unrelated news: https://xmpp.net/ now is updated. Please file your bug reports and PRs at https://github.com/xmpp-observatory
jonas’updated with the DNSSEC fix? :)
Guusyes
jonas’appears to be, awesome!
jonas’thanks for the work to all involved!
Guusand the lets-not-accept-submits-as-http-gets
Guusthingy
jonas’awesome
Zash\o/
jonas’that should reduce the load on the system a lot, too
Guusright
Guuswe'll need to have that new index at some point
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jonas’index?
jonas’ah, db index
Guusfrom iteam, I learned that there's a third docker image being used, still based on your personal account jonas’
Guusmaybe we should move that one over too?
jonas’the third one being?
jonas’and, yeah, sure
jonas’I can do that later, ping me after 15:00Z
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waqashttps://xmpp.net — every host listed there has had the progress indicator for a few minutes. Is that real, or is that just stuck?
Guusjonas’ : xsfjonas/xmppoke-db-docker
Guuswaqas that's real
Guustests take quite a long time to complete
jonas’my scan works at least: https://xmpp.net/result.php?domain=dreckshal.de&type=server
Guusalthough I cannot rule out that a test that was running while the service was restarted will remain in this state forever.
Ge0rGGuus: maybe we can include the server into the "Recent results" only after completion of the test?
Guusthe progress indicator (and an 'error' indicator) now replace the question-mark that was previously used for both.
GuusGe0rG I welcome your PR 🙂
Ge0rGappends to TODO
GuusAlso, I'd love to have volunteers to help maintain the code
Ge0rGask Board to create a team?
Guusthis is not an XSF effort
GuusI just need volunteers 🙂
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Guuswaqas, if you refresh https://xmpp.net/index.php you'll notice that some tests now have finished.
Guustakes about 8 minutes, it seems.
Guusalso, the number of submitted tests appear to be down an order of magnitude. Seems like the GET/POST thing was helpful. Thanks, whoever figured that one out.
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jonas’that also looks much better now
jonas’because otherwise you always had those in-progress indicators and never knew if the service was kaputt or just lots of tests pouring in
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GuusGoogle's XMPP endpoint is still active? https://xmpp.net/result.php?domain=gmail.com&type=client
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Half-Shotno way, I thought that got closed a long time ago?
ZashSubject:
organizationalUnitName: No SNI provided; please fix your client.
commonName: invalid2.invalid
ZashLol
ZashThey closed the s2s
ZashTook their sweet time tho, it was still up long after the annouced shutdow date, so long that people forgot that it was supposed to be dead.
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Ge0rGZash: did you test whether it works without TLS?
Zash"it"?
Ge0rGGmail xmpp
Zashnc: connect to xmpp-server.l.google.com port 5269 (tcp) failed: Connection refused
Link MauveGe0rG, it never did work with.
Zashc2s had TLS tho, still does
Zashbut it seems to require SNI
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Ge0rGLink Mauve: exactly. It's kind of pointless to test it with an SSL checker then
Guusjonas’ it's after 15:00 here - obligatory ping re. database
Guuscan we move it / use a new image, without loosing data?
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jonas’Guus, I explicitly added the Z
jonas’(15:00Z)
jonas’(= UTC)
jonas’gotta run :), remind me after 15:00Z ;-)
Zash=16:00+01:00
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Guusthat last character didn't fit in my memory buffer
ZashGuus: I prescribe more RAM
GuusI tried image-searching for "ram module in nose" and did not find one applicable image. I am disappointed in the interwebs.
dwdGuus, Off by on?
GuusI hope that was a pun.
dwdGuus, I think the question mark spoilt the joke.
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Guusjonas’ what I said earlier.
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Guusah crap
Guusdst
Guuswait, you said 15
GuusI'm fine
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dwdGuus, 1506Z right now.
dwdGuus, Also, had someone else approach me about "what types of sessions might be going on", in order to travel to the Summit.
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dwdGuus, FWIW, this guy works heavily in IETF and standards dev in general - so the arguments about "we only want hardcore XMPP experts" are falling a bit flat given he's doing the XMPP work in SACM/IETF.
KevI'm not sure even /I/ have suggested we only want hardcore XMPP experts.
KevI have suggested we only want people who can meaningfully contribute, at least as the majority, for summits, but that's not the same.
Guus> dwd 16:33
> Guus, 1506Z right now.
Zashdwd: I prescribe some NTP
dwdGuus, Oh. Yes. I should avoid taking the time from the previous message received.
Guusdwd, I'd be overjoyed to list some kind of session details. I'm hoping that they'll be in that text that you were going to write 🙂
dwdThat would be difficult given I don't know either.
Guusmaybe we can draw from past experience, but also explicitly mention that we're doing that, and that actual content is often decided on on the first day.
dwdGuus, "We will spend approximately half the first day discussing something that then lies dormant for the rest of the year"
MattJTradition
jonas’Guus, okay, I’m moving the repository, and I’ll patch the docker hub stuff under my name
GuusYes, but that needs less of your truthfullness and more of your marketing sauce.
jonas’it might maek sense to make a docker hub org, too
Guusjonas’ +!
Guuseh, +1
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jonas’Guus, ok, s o I linked https://cloud.docker.com/u/xsfjonas/repository/docker/xsfjonas/xmppoke-db-docker to the repository under xmpp-observatory
jonas’it is built from xmppoke-frontend-docker
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jonas’so I only had to patch the source repository for the docker build
jonas’https://hub.docker.com/r/xsfjonas/xmppoke-db-docker/ that one
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Guus xmppoke-frontend-docker is no longer used
Guusthat's merged into xmppoke-frontend
jonas’why does it exist then? :(
Guuseh?
dwdjonas’, To annoy you.
jonas’and how are you building the images?
jonas’because my builds are still pointing at xmppoke-frontend-docker
Guusjonas’ images are built here: https://hub.docker.com/u/xmppobservatory (which holds two plans)
Guusiteam now pulls two out of three images from there too
jonas’okay, so it’s not my department anymore anyways?
jonas’you’ll have to re-create the build from that
jonas’you’ll have to re-create the build there
Guuswell, the object of the move was to have you no longer be responsible for maintenance on your own, right? 🙂
jonas’the xmppoke-db-docker build built this Dockerfile: https://github.com/xmpp-observatory/xmppoke-frontend/blob/master/database/Dockerfile#L2
jonas’Guus, yes, but the point is, I don’t have +w on that docker hub org
jonas’I can’t do what you’re asking me to do
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Guusaah
jonas’(I originally was thinking that (a) you’re still using the images I build under xsfjonas and (b) you were talking about a github repository which had to be moved)
Guus@jonas: actually, xsfjonas is owner of that docker hub org
jonas’then I’m too stupid for that interface
jonas’let me se
Guusit is a confusing interface, I get lost all the time.
Guusalso, _I_ was under the impression that it involved another github repo
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jonas’https://cloud.docker.com/u/xmppobservatory/repository/docker/xmppobservatory/xmppoke-db-docker/builds so that’s maybe the thing?
jonas’https://cloud.docker.com/u/xmppobservatory/repository/docker/xmppobservatory/xmppoke-db-docker/builds so that’s maybe what you are asking for? (I just created that)
Guuslooks good-ish 🙂
Guusso, if iteam now switches to that - will it loose all existing data?
jonas’so I’m going to delete all the stuff under xsfjonas to reduce confusion
jonas’no
jonas’if iteam configured it properly
jonas’the pgdata should be in a docker volume
GuusKev ^ ?
jonas’which is not lost when the container is re-created
GuusI'm unsure if the data / volume is linked to a container type / image or somesuch
GuusI'm not very familiar with docker
jonas’no, volumes can be freely moved around between containers
jonas’they exist independent of them
jonas’(most likely, iteam configured it just as a mount anyways)
Guusjonas’ follow up question: can we incrementally add to the database definition (add an index)?
jonas’manually, yes
jonas’log into the container, get a postgres shell, create the index
Guusright, but from a definition?
jonas’define definition
Guus(somethign that need not involve iteam?)
jonas’iteam needs to be involved anyways
Guusthere now is a one-time reconfiguration, yes, but after that, it'd be nice if they could take their hands of off it for things like this.
jonas’it’s not possible, because you’d have to modify code to do that
jonas’and none of the images are pulled automatically
jonas’and that’s intentional, AFAIK
GuusOh, I was under the impression that the images _are_ pulled automatically
Guusas with the website
Guusbut am unsure.
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jonas’I don’t think that’s the case for those which execute lots of code (i.e. all of xmppoke)
MattJIt's not automatic, no
MattJand yes, postgres data is in a volume (or a data container, or something)
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Guusugh. I had hoped for more automation.
jonas’you don’t want automation for that kind of stuff, I think
Guuswhy not?
Guusold code has been bashing the server for months, no-one cared. Things are unlikely to get worse than that.
MattJI'm on the fence, but I get jonas’'s point
Guusif anything, you'd have more people be able to fix an issue, by autodeployment.
jonas’intosi and Kev had a very strong opinion on this IIRC
Guusit's in containers, isolated
MattJCombined with your proposed policy of adding anyone who complains to the org, it's granting many people the ability to run arbitrary code on XSF servers :)
GuusMattJ, yes.
jonas’containers only provide that much isolation
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MattJDoesn't stop pep. adding a bitcoin miner, or sending out XMPP spam
Guusalso: grain of salt 🙂
pep.MattJ, sshhh, don't spoil it
MattJhe's writing the code as we speak
Link MauveI doubt he needs that to send XMPP spam, I’ve seen way cheaper offers coming my way. :p
Guusbut, yeah, this is the same difference of perspective that made me conclude that I'm not a good fit for iteam 🙂
Guusanyway, there is food waiting for me to prepare it
jonas’gl!
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jonas’what is the preferred trello inbox for Board? Last year’s board preferred to have agenda in the leftmost column ("Agenda items")
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Guusjonas’: no preference, nor is there damage done by doing it wrong
jonas’just making sure that it’s being looked at
GuusI'd go with items for discussion
jonas’ok, appended
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dwdOK, so this text describing the Summit: "The XMPP Summit is a yearly event, open to all participants in the standards process, and anyone working on or with XMPP. Run as an "Unconference", the agenda is only finalised on the first morning, and is therefore highly fluid. With heavy attendance from many key XEP authors and developers, places are limited, but registration is free. Lunch is often covered by sponsors, and it takes place in Brussels just before the legendary FOSDEM conference."
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jonas’s/Lunch is/Lunch for XSF members is/
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ZashNot confusing with dinner ?
dwdI suppose we need a bit in the middle, erm, "Previous items on the agenda have ranged from low-level discussions on Groupchat to high level discussion on how XMPP is used, and how it can support modern UX needs."
jonas’ohh
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dwdjonas’, Lunch is usually paid for for all attendees by a sponsor.
jonas’I am confusing it probably
jonas’sorry :)
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dwdjonas’, It's dirt cheap to sponsor, too, so it really doesn't matter.
jonas’> ranged from low-level discussions on wire protocol, via considerations of interoperability of different standards, to high-level ..."
jonas’maybe that^
dwdThat also works.
jonas’oh, maybe I misunderstood for what "bit in the middle" you were asking
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dwdjonas’, I meant to we have a bit about the content. So in full, it'd be: he XMPP Summit is a yearly event, open to all participants in the standards process, and anyone working on or with XMPP. Run as an "Unconference", the agenda is only finalised on the first morning, and is therefore highly fluid. Previous items on the agenda have ranged from low-level discussions on Groupchat to high level discussion on how XMPP is used, and how it can support modern UX needs. With heavy attendance from many key XEP authors and developers, places are limited, but registration is free. Lunch is often covered by sponsors, and it takes place in Brussels just before the legendary FOSDEM conference.
jonas’yeah, that’s good enough
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jonas’my middle bit was really me grasping straws
dwdExcept with a T at the beginning because I can't cut and paste.
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jonas’He, The Holy And Unspoken Of XMPP Summit
dwdI'll never make a good developer if I can't cut and paste properly.
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goffihttps://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation is not up-to-date
dwdgoffi, Council isn't no.
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dwdgoffi, https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/502 should help, right?
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moparisthebestBad Gateway
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GuusDave, I like that Summit description
Guus(also couldn't help but notice that you removed Openfire from your bio, gulp)
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Guusdwd Shall we have a new page on the website with that text?
Guus(and redirect Jonas' banner to that - then link to the wiki on the page with your text)
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Guushttps://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/503
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dwdGuus, I thought I've done embarrassingly little on Openfire - I need to correct that before I try to claim it.
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GuusYeah, you fixed that the wrong way around though.
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pep.Btw re discussions today about people having access to the infra, I won't be offended if I am removed rights to that github org :)
pep.(Now I need to finish my bitcoin miner before they notice)