XSF Discussion - 2019-01-09

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  28. Syndace daniel (and others), I would love to hear your opinion on something. OMEMO has the issue of the key exchange not accounting for lost messages, that's why clients keep building sessions and reusing the same pre key until they get a response which tells them that the session was built successfully. I don't really like that solution. First of all I'm a little scared, because if a cryptographer tells you not to reuse a key, you should probably not reuse that key. Second it puts a lot of dirty hacky work on client devs, backing up the signal state before building a message and restoring it afterwards and stuff like that. So I was thinking about a different solution for a while and then I had the idea of just ignoring the issue altogether. Let's say you are really unlucky enough to lose the message containing the key exchange. You then send a second message, which gets delivered as usual. Your contact would notice that it can't decrypt the message and in reaction send a new key exchange back to you. So instead of one lost message, all the messages between the lost key exchange and the "healing" key exchange are lost. I would still consider that an acceptable trade for all the hassle and possibly insecurity that comes with the way clients currently handle that scenario.
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  110. jonas’ adding more ways to non-obviously lose messages with OMEMO doesn’t sound like a good thing to me
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  113. Ge0rG It can't get much worse, can it?
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  117. waqas Ge0rG: Don't jinx it
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  136. Ge0rG Can't we just encrypt all our messages with deflate and be done?
  137. jonas’ encrypt :D
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  143. Ge0rG I've got two semi-related questions for tomorrow's Board
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  145. Ge0rG 1. are pseudonymous membership applications allowed? (I can't see anything in https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/bylaws but that Board decides about the form of applications) 2. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0345.html which adresses this point with "no" is Deferred. Could Board please LC and advance it?
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  148. jonas’ (I had put it on my todo to add '345 to the board agenda)
  149. Ge0rG jonas’: do you have agenda write access?
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  151. jonas’ yes
  152. jonas’ (I think)
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  154. jonas’ in my role as editor
  155. Ge0rG jonas’: if it's scoped to your role, you probably can't bring in my #1
  156. jonas’ that’s true
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  158. Guus I think it's important that there's little barriers for people to bring something up for discussion with the board. Trello is just a tool - don't be to shy about using it to put something on the board's agenda. Maybe put it in AOB if you're unsure.
  159. Guus (tl;dr: go for it, jonas’ )
  160. Ge0rG Guus: thanks!
  161. Guus as personal feedback on the pseudonymous membership applications (I've not read up on it yet): why would this be desirable?
  162. Guus (my gut does not like the concept, as it appears to conflict with transparency)
  163. Ge0rG Guus: it does conflict with transparency indeed, and there are many debates of requiring a full name on different online platforms, with both sides suggesting many reasons.
  164. Zash They should join the secret shadow XSF instead
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  166. waqas XXSF
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  168. Maranda That sounds like st else 😅😅😅
  169. Guus Zash the secret shadow XSF where they require you to sign up using the secret handshake and writing in blood? That's not 'bonding', that's DNA profiling.
  170. Ge0rG I was just asked by a contact whether they could apply under a pseudonym, and I don't know their specific reasons. I'm not sure if this is relevant to a generic Board decision on whether to allow / deny them
  171. Ge0rG XXXSF!
  172. ta Rule 34!
  173. waqas I know at least one individual who was rejected for applying under a pseudonym before
  174. Ge0rG waqas: I've heard that story.
  175. Guus Bear?
  176. Maranda suggests dropping the multiple uppercase "X" alltogether 🤭🤭✨
  177. Ge0rG I think they are multiple possible outcomes: - legal name only - pseudonyms allowed - per-case decision of board (rather improbable outcome, I suppose)
  178. Guus well, on the one hand - we don't actually check up on the names provided anyway
  179. Guus we do have a requirement that not to many people are affiliated with the same organization, which might be a conflicting issue here.
  180. Ge0rG Guus: yeah
  181. Guus Also, Members get to vote on things
  182. pep. Maybe Ge0rG is not really named Georg. J'accuse!
  183. Kev No, Bear wasn't for applying under a pseudonym, quite the opposite.
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  185. Guus having anonymous members would open the door for one person signing up multiple times, influencing votes
  186. Guus Bear signed up using his legal name, which no-one recognized, right?
  187. Kev He applied not under a pseudonym, and no-one knew who he was except as Bear.
  188. Kev Right.
  189. Ge0rG pep.: you had a chance to check my ID *and* to cross-sign pgp keys recently. I'm even a certified CACert assessor, orhowtheycallit
  190. waqas Note that the real name policy isn't really enforced, as far as I've seen. Someone could make up a real sounding pseudonym and they'll likely get in.
  191. waqas So, the door to one person singing up multiple times isn't really closed at the moment.
  192. Guus jonas’ / Ge0rG I added quick Trello items for both issues on Board's Trello Board.
  193. Ge0rG Guus: thanks very much!
  194. jonas’ Guus, thx! :)
  195. Guus waqas I agree, and said as much. But still, ...
  196. Ge0rG waqas: I think that we are in a situation where it's hard enough to get a person to sign up *one* time. We need more volunteers!
  197. Ge0rG Also this is probably not the official Board response to that question ;)
  198. Guus right 🙂
  199. Ge0rG while speaking of Board responses... anybody seen peter lately?
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  201. Guus I'd really like to know what the reasoning is behind wanting to sign up under a pseudonym
  202. jonas’ he replied on github on an issue a day or two ago
  203. Ge0rG maybe I need to PR for JabberSPAM after all?
  204. Guus Ge0rG Yeah, on github and in a mail sent earlier today/tonight
  205. waqas Wow, it was a decade back: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Solarius_Application_2008#About_my_anonimity
  206. Guus PSA: if you are going to be at the Summit, it would be a Good Thing for your name to be on the attendance list in wiki, as that's what I'll use to get everyone access to the Cisco building.
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  208. Guus ah, thanks waqas - I didn't know about that one.
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  211. Guus I'm not sure if either argument is a valid reason for us to accept anonymous signups. Not being a XSF member does not limit your freedom of speech. The other one is personal preference.
  212. Guus waqas do you remember if this persons membership rejection was specifically caused by the anonymity aspect of it?
  213. waqas Yes, I believe so
  214. Kev But rejected by the members, IIRC.
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  216. Kev (Which I might not)
  217. Guus I'm not a free speech expert - did my comment above make sense?
  218. Kev I don't think not giving your name to an organisation of which you want to be a member is about free speech.
  219. Ge0rG It doesn't look like we have the minutes on the wiki.
  220. Ge0rG Kev: could you reword that with fewer negations, please?
  221. Kev And as we allow participation regardless of pseudonymity in our process, I don't see a reason we need to allow psedonymous members.
  222. Kev Ge0rG: This isn't about free speech.
  223. Guus Thanks Kev
  224. waqas I'm curious if there's any legal aspect here, in terms of the XSF's status as a non-profit
  225. Guus I guestimate that at best, that's apply for registered officials of the org
  226. Guus I guestimate that at best, that'd apply for registered officials of the org
  227. waqas Does the board count?
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  229. Guus unsure.
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  235. Kev I'd have thought the XSF would need legal advice before accepting someone that they knew wasn't giving their real name. (Which isn't the same as being duped). So the path of least resistance seems to me to disallow pseudonyms.
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  246. Guus I tend to agree with Kev - however, if there's a compelling reason, I'd be willing to consider allowing it on an individual base.
  247. Guus Me not being able to think of one doesn't rule out that such reason does exist.
  248. waqas Another case was Daurnimator later on. He withdrew his application based on this. I don't recall any other cases.
  249. waqas I have no strong opinions either way
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  252. Guus In unrelated news: https://xmpp.net/ now is updated. Please file your bug reports and PRs at https://github.com/xmpp-observatory
  253. jonas’ updated with the DNSSEC fix? :)
  254. Guus yes
  255. jonas’ appears to be, awesome!
  256. jonas’ thanks for the work to all involved!
  257. Guus and the lets-not-accept-submits-as-http-gets
  258. Guus thingy
  259. jonas’ awesome
  260. Zash \o/
  261. jonas’ that should reduce the load on the system a lot, too
  262. Guus right
  263. Guus we'll need to have that new index at some point
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  265. jonas’ index?
  266. jonas’ ah, db index
  267. Guus from iteam, I learned that there's a third docker image being used, still based on your personal account jonas’
  268. Guus maybe we should move that one over too?
  269. jonas’ the third one being?
  270. jonas’ and, yeah, sure
  271. jonas’ I can do that later, ping me after 15:00Z
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  274. waqas https://xmpp.net — every host listed there has had the progress indicator for a few minutes. Is that real, or is that just stuck?
  275. Guus jonas’ : xsfjonas/xmppoke-db-docker
  276. Guus waqas that's real
  277. Guus tests take quite a long time to complete
  278. jonas’ my scan works at least: https://xmpp.net/result.php?domain=dreckshal.de&type=server
  279. Guus although I cannot rule out that a test that was running while the service was restarted will remain in this state forever.
  280. Ge0rG Guus: maybe we can include the server into the "Recent results" only after completion of the test?
  281. Guus the progress indicator (and an 'error' indicator) now replace the question-mark that was previously used for both.
  282. Guus Ge0rG I welcome your PR 🙂
  283. Ge0rG appends to TODO
  284. Guus Also, I'd love to have volunteers to help maintain the code
  285. Ge0rG ask Board to create a team?
  286. Guus this is not an XSF effort
  287. Guus I just need volunteers 🙂
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  290. Guus waqas, if you refresh https://xmpp.net/index.php you'll notice that some tests now have finished.
  291. Guus takes about 8 minutes, it seems.
  292. Guus also, the number of submitted tests appear to be down an order of magnitude. Seems like the GET/POST thing was helpful. Thanks, whoever figured that one out.
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  298. jonas’ that also looks much better now
  299. jonas’ because otherwise you always had those in-progress indicators and never knew if the service was kaputt or just lots of tests pouring in
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  368. Guus Google's XMPP endpoint is still active? https://xmpp.net/result.php?domain=gmail.com&type=client
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  370. Half-Shot no way, I thought that got closed a long time ago?
  371. Zash Subject: organizationalUnitName: No SNI provided; please fix your client. commonName: invalid2.invalid
  372. Zash Lol
  373. Zash They closed the s2s
  374. Zash Took their sweet time tho, it was still up long after the annouced shutdow date, so long that people forgot that it was supposed to be dead.
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  386. Ge0rG Zash: did you test whether it works without TLS?
  387. Zash "it"?
  388. Ge0rG Gmail xmpp
  389. Zash nc: connect to xmpp-server.l.google.com port 5269 (tcp) failed: Connection refused
  390. Link Mauve Ge0rG, it never did work with.
  391. Zash c2s had TLS tho, still does
  392. Zash but it seems to require SNI
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  394. Ge0rG Link Mauve: exactly. It's kind of pointless to test it with an SSL checker then
  395. Zash Does xmpp.net do SNI?
  396. Zash https://prosody.im/pastebin/ac9e1833-ab38-4b75-a50d-5bdd5966656a anyways
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  422. Guus Zash I do not know
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  425. Guus jonas’ it's after 15:00 here - obligatory ping re. database
  426. Guus can we move it / use a new image, without loosing data?
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  430. jonas’ Guus, I explicitly added the Z
  431. jonas’ (15:00Z)
  432. jonas’ (= UTC)
  433. jonas’ gotta run :), remind me after 15:00Z ;-)
  434. Zash =16:00+01:00
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  436. Guus that last character didn't fit in my memory buffer
  437. Zash Guus: I prescribe more RAM
  438. Guus I tried image-searching for "ram module in nose" and did not find one applicable image. I am disappointed in the interwebs.
  439. dwd Guus, Off by on?
  440. Guus I hope that was a pun.
  441. dwd Guus, I think the question mark spoilt the joke.
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  467. Guus jonas’ what I said earlier.
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  469. Guus ah crap
  470. Guus dst
  471. Guus wait, you said 15
  472. Guus I'm fine
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  486. dwd Guus, 1506Z right now.
  487. dwd Guus, Also, had someone else approach me about "what types of sessions might be going on", in order to travel to the Summit.
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  489. dwd Guus, FWIW, this guy works heavily in IETF and standards dev in general - so the arguments about "we only want hardcore XMPP experts" are falling a bit flat given he's doing the XMPP work in SACM/IETF.
  490. Kev I'm not sure even /I/ have suggested we only want hardcore XMPP experts.
  491. Kev I have suggested we only want people who can meaningfully contribute, at least as the majority, for summits, but that's not the same.
  492. Guus > dwd 16:33 > Guus, 1506Z right now.
  493. Zash dwd: I prescribe some NTP
  494. dwd Guus, Oh. Yes. I should avoid taking the time from the previous message received.
  495. Guus dwd, I'd be overjoyed to list some kind of session details. I'm hoping that they'll be in that text that you were going to write 🙂
  496. dwd That would be difficult given I don't know either.
  497. Guus maybe we can draw from past experience, but also explicitly mention that we're doing that, and that actual content is often decided on on the first day.
  498. dwd Guus, "We will spend approximately half the first day discussing something that then lies dormant for the rest of the year"
  499. MattJ Tradition
  500. jonas’ Guus, okay, I’m moving the repository, and I’ll patch the docker hub stuff under my name
  501. Guus Yes, but that needs less of your truthfullness and more of your marketing sauce.
  502. jonas’ it might maek sense to make a docker hub org, too
  503. Guus jonas’ +!
  504. Guus eh, +1
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  507. jonas’ Guus, ok, s o I linked https://cloud.docker.com/u/xsfjonas/repository/docker/xsfjonas/xmppoke-db-docker to the repository under xmpp-observatory
  508. jonas’ it is built from xmppoke-frontend-docker
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  510. jonas’ so I only had to patch the source repository for the docker build
  511. jonas’ https://hub.docker.com/r/xsfjonas/xmppoke-db-docker/ that one
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  513. Guus xmppoke-frontend-docker is no longer used
  514. Guus that's merged into xmppoke-frontend
  515. jonas’ why does it exist then? :(
  516. Guus eh?
  517. dwd jonas’, To annoy you.
  518. jonas’ and how are you building the images?
  519. jonas’ because my builds are still pointing at xmppoke-frontend-docker
  520. Guus jonas’ images are built here: https://hub.docker.com/u/xmppobservatory (which holds two plans)
  521. Guus iteam now pulls two out of three images from there too
  522. jonas’ okay, so it’s not my department anymore anyways?
  523. jonas’ you’ll have to re-create the build from that
  524. jonas’ you’ll have to re-create the build there
  525. Guus well, the object of the move was to have you no longer be responsible for maintenance on your own, right? 🙂
  526. jonas’ the xmppoke-db-docker build built this Dockerfile: https://github.com/xmpp-observatory/xmppoke-frontend/blob/master/database/Dockerfile#L2
  527. jonas’ Guus, yes, but the point is, I don’t have +w on that docker hub org
  528. jonas’ I can’t do what you’re asking me to do
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  530. Guus aah
  531. jonas’ (I originally was thinking that (a) you’re still using the images I build under xsfjonas and (b) you were talking about a github repository which had to be moved)
  532. Guus @jonas: actually, xsfjonas is owner of that docker hub org
  533. jonas’ then I’m too stupid for that interface
  534. jonas’ let me se
  535. Guus it is a confusing interface, I get lost all the time.
  536. Guus also, _I_ was under the impression that it involved another github repo
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  538. jonas’ https://cloud.docker.com/u/xmppobservatory/repository/docker/xmppobservatory/xmppoke-db-docker/builds so that’s maybe the thing?
  539. jonas’ https://cloud.docker.com/u/xmppobservatory/repository/docker/xmppobservatory/xmppoke-db-docker/builds so that’s maybe what you are asking for? (I just created that)
  540. Guus looks good-ish 🙂
  541. Guus so, if iteam now switches to that - will it loose all existing data?
  542. jonas’ so I’m going to delete all the stuff under xsfjonas to reduce confusion
  543. jonas’ no
  544. jonas’ if iteam configured it properly
  545. jonas’ the pgdata should be in a docker volume
  546. Guus Kev ^ ?
  547. jonas’ which is not lost when the container is re-created
  548. Guus I'm unsure if the data / volume is linked to a container type / image or somesuch
  549. Guus I'm not very familiar with docker
  550. jonas’ no, volumes can be freely moved around between containers
  551. jonas’ they exist independent of them
  552. jonas’ (most likely, iteam configured it just as a mount anyways)
  553. Guus jonas’ follow up question: can we incrementally add to the database definition (add an index)?
  554. jonas’ manually, yes
  555. jonas’ log into the container, get a postgres shell, create the index
  556. Guus right, but from a definition?
  557. jonas’ define definition
  558. Guus (somethign that need not involve iteam?)
  559. jonas’ iteam needs to be involved anyways
  560. Guus there now is a one-time reconfiguration, yes, but after that, it'd be nice if they could take their hands of off it for things like this.
  561. jonas’ it’s not possible, because you’d have to modify code to do that
  562. jonas’ and none of the images are pulled automatically
  563. jonas’ and that’s intentional, AFAIK
  564. Guus Oh, I was under the impression that the images _are_ pulled automatically
  565. Guus as with the website
  566. Guus but am unsure.
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  568. jonas’ I don’t think that’s the case for those which execute lots of code (i.e. all of xmppoke)
  569. MattJ It's not automatic, no
  570. MattJ and yes, postgres data is in a volume (or a data container, or something)
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  572. Guus ugh. I had hoped for more automation.
  573. jonas’ you don’t want automation for that kind of stuff, I think
  574. Guus why not?
  575. Guus old code has been bashing the server for months, no-one cared. Things are unlikely to get worse than that.
  576. MattJ I'm on the fence, but I get jonas’'s point
  577. Guus if anything, you'd have more people be able to fix an issue, by autodeployment.
  578. jonas’ intosi and Kev had a very strong opinion on this IIRC
  579. Guus it's in containers, isolated
  580. MattJ Combined with your proposed policy of adding anyone who complains to the org, it's granting many people the ability to run arbitrary code on XSF servers :)
  581. Guus MattJ, yes.
  582. jonas’ containers only provide that much isolation
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  584. MattJ Doesn't stop pep. adding a bitcoin miner, or sending out XMPP spam
  585. Guus also: grain of salt 🙂
  586. pep. MattJ, sshhh, don't spoil it
  587. MattJ he's writing the code as we speak
  588. Link Mauve I doubt he needs that to send XMPP spam, I’ve seen way cheaper offers coming my way. :p
  589. Guus but, yeah, this is the same difference of perspective that made me conclude that I'm not a good fit for iteam 🙂
  590. Guus anyway, there is food waiting for me to prepare it
  591. jonas’ gl!
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  608. jonas’ what is the preferred trello inbox for Board? Last year’s board preferred to have agenda in the leftmost column ("Agenda items")
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  611. Guus jonas’: no preference, nor is there damage done by doing it wrong
  612. jonas’ just making sure that it’s being looked at
  613. Guus I'd go with items for discussion
  614. jonas’ ok, appended
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  651. dwd OK, so this text describing the Summit: "The XMPP Summit is a yearly event, open to all participants in the standards process, and anyone working on or with XMPP. Run as an "Unconference", the agenda is only finalised on the first morning, and is therefore highly fluid. With heavy attendance from many key XEP authors and developers, places are limited, but registration is free. Lunch is often covered by sponsors, and it takes place in Brussels just before the legendary FOSDEM conference."
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  654. jonas’ s/Lunch is/Lunch for XSF members is/
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  656. Zash Not confusing with dinner ?
  657. dwd I suppose we need a bit in the middle, erm, "Previous items on the agenda have ranged from low-level discussions on Groupchat to high level discussion on how XMPP is used, and how it can support modern UX needs."
  658. jonas’ ohh
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  660. dwd jonas’, Lunch is usually paid for for all attendees by a sponsor.
  661. jonas’ I am confusing it probably
  662. jonas’ sorry :)
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  664. dwd jonas’, It's dirt cheap to sponsor, too, so it really doesn't matter.
  665. jonas’ > ranged from low-level discussions on wire protocol, via considerations of interoperability of different standards, to high-level ..."
  666. jonas’ maybe that^
  667. dwd That also works.
  668. jonas’ oh, maybe I misunderstood for what "bit in the middle" you were asking
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  670. dwd jonas’, I meant to we have a bit about the content. So in full, it'd be: he XMPP Summit is a yearly event, open to all participants in the standards process, and anyone working on or with XMPP. Run as an "Unconference", the agenda is only finalised on the first morning, and is therefore highly fluid. Previous items on the agenda have ranged from low-level discussions on Groupchat to high level discussion on how XMPP is used, and how it can support modern UX needs. With heavy attendance from many key XEP authors and developers, places are limited, but registration is free. Lunch is often covered by sponsors, and it takes place in Brussels just before the legendary FOSDEM conference.
  671. jonas’ yeah, that’s good enough
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  673. jonas’ my middle bit was really me grasping straws
  674. dwd Except with a T at the beginning because I can't cut and paste.
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  676. jonas’ He, The Holy And Unspoken Of XMPP Summit
  677. dwd I'll never make a good developer if I can't cut and paste properly.
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  681. goffi https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation is not up-to-date
  682. dwd goffi, Council isn't no.
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  688. dwd goffi, https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/502 should help, right?
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  699. moparisthebest Bad Gateway
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  702. Guus Dave, I like that Summit description
  703. Guus (also couldn't help but notice that you removed Openfire from your bio, gulp)
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  705. Guus dwd Shall we have a new page on the website with that text?
  706. Guus (and redirect Jonas' banner to that - then link to the wiki on the page with your text)
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  721. Guus https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/503
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  742. dwd Guus, I thought I've done embarrassingly little on Openfire - I need to correct that before I try to claim it.
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  748. Guus Yeah, you fixed that the wrong way around though.
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  839. pep. Btw re discussions today about people having access to the infra, I won't be offended if I am removed rights to that github org :)
  840. pep. (Now I need to finish my bitcoin miner before they notice)
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