MattJIt was more a general observation that we need to control access somewhere
jonas’Guus et al., going to fix my council bio in the afternoon
jonas’not sure what to put in it, never worked with XMPP professionally :)
jonas’(unless you count the failed experiment to save XMPP from being ditched in the company I worked for at that time)
GuusI thoroughly disagree that we're controlling access in any meaningful way.
Guuswe're making it hard for people to be effective, yes.
jonas’for the xmpp.net thing, I think we are
jonas’or at least, we can be, if iteam reviews the diff before using a new image ;-)
Guusbut there's hardly an access policy being enforced.
Guus@jonas', in your bio, quote your role as editor, and one or two contributions you made over the year. That'll quickly get you to a couple of lines of text.
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jonas’is your client doing the '@' thing or are you?
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GuusI am, in an attempt to make my client do mentions. It triggers autocomplete, but I think a bit of parsing fails properly recognizing the ' being part of your name
Guusso, it it can't do mention, it'll send the @ symbol
Guusjonas’ <-tab completed
Guus@jonas' <- typed manually
Guusright,there's a difference there.
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jonas’the tab completed one does work as a highlight in my client, the other one doesn’t :)
jonas’fun bugs to discover :)
GuusYeah, the mention is in context of xep-0372
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GuusI found another bug where it's case sensitive too
Guusand, as the failed mention neglects to remove the @ symbol, some clients fail to properly recognize the name, resulting in no kind of notification being triggered at all
Guusquite the opposite of what was intended
Guustook a while to figure out why this was happening 🙂
GuusAgenda has been filled over the last few weeks, on trello
Ge0rGstill has the same topics as last week
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Guus(I'm hoping you guys try to keep track of that during the week, in order to prepare)
Sevehas nothing to add
ralphmI do, but I still ask anyway.
ralphm1. Minute taker
Guus👍
ralphmwho?
ralphm...
ralphm2. Commitments
ralphmSending out an e-mail to finally schedule a meeting with Peter today.
ralphm3. GSoC
nycohere
ralphmGuus, I suppose no admins have signed up?
GuusActually, one has
GuusFlorian / flow volunteers.
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nycooh, cool
GuusTo quote him:
Guus> I would be happy to help the XSF and the XMPP community with GSoC,
including acting as an organization admin.
> I've been a mentor three times, visited different GSoC events (mentor
summit, local meetings) and know various other GSoC mentors and admins
from other organizations.
ralphmThat's great!
Guushargh, doorbell, one sec
Guusand back
SeveSounds awesome, flow thanks
GuusI suggest that we let flow take the reigns on this, and see if he can organize an XSF umbrella for GSoC involvement of projects that are interested.
ralphmI think that Kev was our last admin, so I hope he can answer any questions Flow might have.
KevHmm?
KevOh, GSoC.
ralphmyes
GuusI motion that we bestow upon Florian the role of XSF GSoC'19 admin, and that we ask him in that capacity to organize an XSF umbrella for projects that which to participate.
KevWe must have co-admins BTW.
nyco+1 and +1
MattJ+1
KevSo Flow on his own isn't enough here.
ralphmKev: to review applications, you mean?
Kev(At least in name, even if they don't do anything, there must be other people willing to do stuff if Flow doesn't)
KevNo, I mean Google require there not to be only a single admin.
ralphmHow did we do this before?
KevI found people who trusted me enough as admin to put their name down in the expectation they didn't have to do anything, generally.
GuusArranging for a correct registration with Google shall be up to him, then.
GuusWe wanted someone to lead the effort - I feel that we now have one. He can take it from here.
SeveFeels like a solid start +1
ralphm+1. As it is a requirement to complete the application, I am curious to see who Flow will draft.
GuusI'll let him know that we accepted his offer to act as admin
ralphm3. FOSDEM / Summit
Guusregistrations are pouring in.
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ralphmThe FOSDEM organisation has a sent a provisional overview of the stand assignments. I am a bit worried about it, as it shows 5 tables in the same area as before, but just one for us..
Kev(For GSoC - I'd like to note that before the application we need to have our ideas page in order, etc., so we should make another call as we approach that date as to whether to actually apply, based on the quality of what we've got. We shouldn't burn the goodwill we've built up over the years with the GSoC team)
ralphmSo I am going to try and see what we can do about this.
Guusralphm that'd be good, thanks
ralphmKev: noted and agreed.
GuusI'm waiting for a sign-up form from the hotel (they appear to be having difficulties generating one, but did already receive my signature on their offer.
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ralphmThere's no alternative than wait?
GuusI am almost in contact with the regular restaurant for the XSF Dinner (we keep missing eachother), and we have had a sponsor for said dinner step forward.
GuusI pinged them, they told me to wait longer.
ralphmOk thanks.
ralphmAlso yay for the dinner sponsor.
Guusone thing that concerns me is a lack of salesware
Guusif we do want to sell stuff, we should design/order things
ralphmYeah, I was thinking about this too. We have no swag left, in terms of clothing.
ralphmLast year, there was a suggestion for a Summit-only t-shirt. I actually made a 'design' for it.
nycowe're 10th Jan, it's late...
nycoI mean to generate clothing
ralphmI disagree
Guuslets take this to the SCAM muc after the meeting
ralphmyeah
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ralphm4. Pseudonanymous Membership Applications
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MattJThe annual discussion? :)
ralphmI see there's a question on whether members can be anonymous or semi-anonymous. I think this was addressed in earlier years and the answer has always been no.
GuusIs that an anuual thing? Never heard it before.
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Ge0rGMe neither.
ralphmHow did this come up
KevPeople have too much time.
Ge0rGralphm: I was asked whether it's possible.
GuusSOmeone asked Ge0rG , who asked us.
Ge0rGAll I found was the XEP that's next on the agenda
GuusI am happy with not allowing it.
nyco+0
MattJYes, it's been discussed extensively in the past, and there are reasons it's not feasible or sensible (as nice as it may be in theory)
ralphmThere's no vote on this. I think it comes from our being a registered corporation for the state of Delaware.
GuusThere appears to be precedent to not allow it. On top of that, there might be legal issues related to accepting anonymous members into an organization where they can hold legal status.
Guuswell, ok then: no.
MattJGuus, exactly
Ge0rGI'm happy with whatever the official answer is, and even more happy if it gets documented.
GuusGe0rG did just volunteer to do our minutes, I think. 🙂
MattJHeh
SeveGe0rG, thank you
GuusAS Ge0rG suggested, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0345.html might be a good way to formalize this further.
Ge0rGYou don't want me to write minutes in my current mood, sorry.
Ge0rGI'd be much more grumpy than usual. Also I'm affected by today's decisions.
Guusit has been deferred, but has received earlier updates based on feedback. It has some editorial issues (spelling/punctuation) but looks good otherwise.
ralphmI'm not opposed to resurrecting that XEP.
MattJI'm not opposed either, though I still have some issues with it
ralphmIs the other item on typos referring to this XEP specifically?
Ge0rGThe XEP contains a clear statement that members must apply with their legal name.
Guusralphm I dont think so
MattJI think the typo thing is a general issue
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ralphmok
ralphmShall we ask the Editor to LC this XEP?
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ralphmThen we can collect feedback and resolve issues we have with it ourselves.
Ge0rGI *assume* that the typo thing is about whether a Deferred XEP should be re-promoted to Experimental when somebody fixes typos in it.
MattJI found a XEP of mine that should be deferred but only isn't because someone fixed something editorial
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Guusdeferred -> last call is a state transiation that's allowable
Guusdeferred -> last call is a state transiation that's allowable?
ralphmMattJ if you *want* a XEP to be 'deferred' maybe you should retract it.
MattJI don't, I'm glad it's not deferred :)
MattJBut it still feels wrong
Ge0rGthere is another processual thing coming up, regarding https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/727 - we can't move from "Deferred" to "Deprecated" currently, and that might be useful.
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Guusok, to many topics at the same time now, I think 🙂 I'm starting to loose track.
dwd(Although I did ask that to be run past the community, since Council isn't in consensus about that)
Ge0rGWhat dwd said
ralphmOn XEP-0345.
ralphmWe can ask the Editor to undefer it.
ralphmThen put it to LC. I'm not sure if that requires any changes to the document.
GuusI'd be happy with that
KevXEP 1 talks about updated versions of XEPs, and I don't think a typo can be considered an updated XEP in any substantive way, it's an editorial change. Until recently we wouldn't even have updated the patch number.
ralphmYes, but for XEP-0345 specifically, XEP-0001 says the Editor can decide to change back to Deferred at will.
Seveagrees with Kev
ralphm(This agenda item is *only* about members applications, really)
Ge0rGyou could vote on asking the Editor for doing whatever is needed to LC 345
jonas’i put details on the typo thing in the card description
ralphmSo, besides Guus, who else agrees we will ask the Editor to put XEP-0345 to LC?
MattJI agree
ralphmnyco, Seve?
jonas’regarding deferred -> lc, I think theres something in the prose of '0001
Guus(thanks ralphm )
ralphmjonas’: I read it, not directly, but I think it can be done as described above.
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Guusjonas’ We'd like to revive the XEP, with eventually it going to LC.
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jonas’sorry I'm on mobile
SeveI agree, ralphm
Ge0rG> Note that if a XEP is Deferred, the XMPP Extensions Editor may at some point re-assign it to Experimental status
Guusif deferred -> LC is not a valid transition, then we can go through one that is valid first.
nyco+1
ralphmLet the records show that the Board would like the Editor to move XEP-0345 back to Experimental, and then, in a separate step, put it to Proposed.
ralphm5. E-mail issue
ralphmI understand the Seve has now received Board e-mails.
Guusemails from wiki work again, seve receives emails too now.
ralphmyay!
Guusseems resolved as far as I can tell
SeveYes, very happy :)
Guusiteam let me know that action was taken to remove us from a blacklist
ralphm6. GitHub Issue 497
ralphmhttps://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/497
jonas’does an LC for '345 go to standards@ and/or members@ or what? it's procedural and affects membership
GuusI put that up, before the comments on that issue poured in
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Guusjonas’ when in doubt, spam everyone.
jonas’Guus: I understand
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ralphmjonas’: to members
jonas’ugh I lag a lot I think
GuusAs for 497: I think Peter implicitly acknowledged that such an agreement was once made. Therefor, I feel we should honor it and restore the thingy on the website.
ralphmThis is about the xmpp.org domain having been donated, and requiring a notice to that end on our website.
ralphmWe should clean up our list of sponsors, and just put a logo for OpenDomain in that sponsor cloud
Guuswe'll work with them on the 'how'
Guusmy primary concern for putting this on our board was to see if it was legit.
Guusthat since has been established.
ralphmYes
ralphmok
ralphm7. Clarify typos in Deferred XEPs
Guusjonas’ wrote: > I (Editor) ask that we clarify XEP-0001 in such a way that editorial changes to Deferred XEPs do not automatically un-defer them, while non-editorial changes do.
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Guusthat seems sensible to me.
KevI think it's already that, pretty much.
ralphmI don't think that fixing a typo is considered a change if it doesn't change anything substantial.
ralphmI'm happy for the Editor to make that call.
KevXEP1 talks about x.y versions as being updates, and we publish editorial under x.y.z.
Guuswe might go one step further and state that editorial changed do not change the state of a XEP at all.
Guuswe might go one step further and state that editorial changes do not change the state of a XEP at all.
KevTightening up the wording here seems fine, but I don't think this is a change from what XEP1 is telling us to do.
Seve+1 Guus
Guuseven better
MattJYep
ralphmSo we don't have to do anything?
Guusjust confirm to our editor that he's right.
Guuswell, he asks us to clarify the text
Guuswe'll ask him to draft a proposal for that clarification then 🙂
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ralphmOk
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ralphm8. AOB?
nyconope
ralphm(some of the other items are pending as per agenda item 2 above)
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Guusi don't have an AOB.
MattJNothing here (I do have some low priority things but we're already quite over time and I have another meeting in a moment)
Ge0rGralphm: do you have an estimate on how long the resolution of the JabberSPAM trademark request will take?
ralphmGe0rG: not yet
ralphm9. Date of Next
Ge0rGWe are almost a month in :)
ralphm+1W
nyco+1
Guus@Mattj maybe add them to trello for nexzt time?
edhelasdifferent topic now, I wanted to know if some of you were interested by some 2FA mechanism for XMPP ? for example by adding an extra step to SASL ?
Ge0rGedhelas: IIRC there was a proposal last year about that. And there are also interesting ideas around per-device passwords and tokens and the like
debacleGe0rG When I asked Daniel about per-device passwords or Web-API-style tokens, he mentioned also client-side certificates. Not the same thing as 2FA, but related issue.
Guusjonas’ do you need further info on either question you initiated?
jonas’Guus, the typo thing seems to be well-addressed to me
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jonas’The LC thing is mostly clear, but I’m not sure why you’re insisting on having this in two separate actions?
Guusyou asked for a change in XEP-0001 - can you prepare a concrete proposal?
jonas’Do you want two separate emails?
jonas’Guus, I can, can you send me an email about that?
Guusjonas’ please use the optimal path that's available. I'm unsure of a state transition from 'deferred' to 'last call' is permitted in XEP-0001.
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Guuswe simply want to revive that XEP.
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ralphmFor those no in summit@muc.xmpp.org, yet, but interested in talking about all things FOSDEM / Summit, please go there.
ralphm(no->not)
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Guusjonas’ mail regarding https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0345.html sent (to members - with an invitation for anyone to review)
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dwdedhelas, Yeah, At Surevine we built a web-based 2FA thing around SASL2, TOTP, etc. The XEPs and one internet-draft came out of it, as well as some code (for Openfire, open source, rough shape).
dwdedhelas, Surevine still have a stanza.io implementation, but I don't believe that is or will be open sourced.
pep.Half-Shot, hey, do you have any estimates (or resources showing these estimates) on how many matrix servers there are out there federating?
edhelasah I'm interested
edhelasdwd what kind of 2FA did you used ? the Google Auth thing ?
dwdedhelas, https://kitten.ietf.narkive.com/OsJEMivx/totp-in-sasl-in-xmpp is a breif for the Kittin folks in IETF. But yes, we used TOTP.
dwdedhelas, The IETF used to have a working group called CAT, for Common Authentication Technologies. When it was restarted later, it was obviously called KITTEN, as "Son of CAT".
edhelassomeday we'll write books about that
ZashReturn of the Two Cats
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dwdedhelas, Anyway, it all worked with Google Authenticator and stuff. Handled "remember this browser" stuff and so on, as well as handling session reconnect without re-TOTP (or manual reauth, sometimes).
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jonas’Guus, I’m not sure whether "such a transition does not exist" is meaningful when the editor can Un-Defer at will
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jonas’Guus et al.: The normal Last Call template (see for example https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2019-January/035623.html ) does not really fit the XEP-0345 last call.
XSF Discussion - 2019-01-10