It was more a general observation that we need to control access somewhere
jonas’
Guus et al., going to fix my council bio in the afternoon
jonas’
not sure what to put in it, never worked with XMPP professionally :)
jonas’
(unless you count the failed experiment to save XMPP from being ditched in the company I worked for at that time)
Guus
I thoroughly disagree that we're controlling access in any meaningful way.
Guus
we're making it hard for people to be effective, yes.
jonas’
for the xmpp.net thing, I think we are
jonas’
or at least, we can be, if iteam reviews the diff before using a new image ;-)
Guus
but there's hardly an access policy being enforced.
Guus
@jonas', in your bio, quote your role as editor, and one or two contributions you made over the year. That'll quickly get you to a couple of lines of text.
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jonas’
is your client doing the '@' thing or are you?
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Guus
I am, in an attempt to make my client do mentions. It triggers autocomplete, but I think a bit of parsing fails properly recognizing the ' being part of your name
Guus
so, it it can't do mention, it'll send the @ symbol
Guus
jonas’ <-tab completed
Guus
@jonas' <- typed manually
Guus
right,there's a difference there.
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jonas’
the tab completed one does work as a highlight in my client, the other one doesn’t :)
jonas’
fun bugs to discover :)
Guus
Yeah, the mention is in context of xep-0372
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Guus
I found another bug where it's case sensitive too
Guus
and, as the failed mention neglects to remove the @ symbol, some clients fail to properly recognize the name, resulting in no kind of notification being triggered at all
Guus
quite the opposite of what was intended
Guus
took a while to figure out why this was happening 🙂
Agenda has been filled over the last few weeks, on trello
Ge0rGstill has the same topics as last week
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Guus
(I'm hoping you guys try to keep track of that during the week, in order to prepare)
Sevehas nothing to add
ralphm
I do, but I still ask anyway.
ralphm
1. Minute taker
Guus
👍
ralphm
who?
ralphm
...
ralphm
2. Commitments
ralphm
Sending out an e-mail to finally schedule a meeting with Peter today.
ralphm
3. GSoC
nyco
here
ralphm
Guus, I suppose no admins have signed up?
Guus
Actually, one has
Guus
Florian / flow volunteers.
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nyco
oh, cool
Guus
To quote him:
Guus
> I would be happy to help the XSF and the XMPP community with GSoC,
including acting as an organization admin.
> I've been a mentor three times, visited different GSoC events (mentor
summit, local meetings) and know various other GSoC mentors and admins
from other organizations.
ralphm
That's great!
Guus
hargh, doorbell, one sec
Guus
and back
Seve
Sounds awesome, flow thanks
Guus
I suggest that we let flow take the reigns on this, and see if he can organize an XSF umbrella for GSoC involvement of projects that are interested.
ralphm
I think that Kev was our last admin, so I hope he can answer any questions Flow might have.
Kev
Hmm?
Kev
Oh, GSoC.
ralphm
yes
Guus
I motion that we bestow upon Florian the role of XSF GSoC'19 admin, and that we ask him in that capacity to organize an XSF umbrella for projects that which to participate.
Kev
We must have co-admins BTW.
nyco
+1 and +1
MattJ
+1
Kev
So Flow on his own isn't enough here.
ralphm
Kev: to review applications, you mean?
Kev
(At least in name, even if they don't do anything, there must be other people willing to do stuff if Flow doesn't)
Kev
No, I mean Google require there not to be only a single admin.
ralphm
How did we do this before?
Kev
I found people who trusted me enough as admin to put their name down in the expectation they didn't have to do anything, generally.
Guus
Arranging for a correct registration with Google shall be up to him, then.
Guus
We wanted someone to lead the effort - I feel that we now have one. He can take it from here.
Seve
Feels like a solid start +1
ralphm
+1. As it is a requirement to complete the application, I am curious to see who Flow will draft.
Guus
I'll let him know that we accepted his offer to act as admin
ralphm
3. FOSDEM / Summit
Guus
registrations are pouring in.
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ralphm
The FOSDEM organisation has a sent a provisional overview of the stand assignments. I am a bit worried about it, as it shows 5 tables in the same area as before, but just one for us..
Kev
(For GSoC - I'd like to note that before the application we need to have our ideas page in order, etc., so we should make another call as we approach that date as to whether to actually apply, based on the quality of what we've got. We shouldn't burn the goodwill we've built up over the years with the GSoC team)
ralphm
So I am going to try and see what we can do about this.
Guus
ralphm that'd be good, thanks
ralphm
Kev: noted and agreed.
Guus
I'm waiting for a sign-up form from the hotel (they appear to be having difficulties generating one, but did already receive my signature on their offer.
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ralphm
There's no alternative than wait?
Guus
I am almost in contact with the regular restaurant for the XSF Dinner (we keep missing eachother), and we have had a sponsor for said dinner step forward.
Guus
I pinged them, they told me to wait longer.
ralphm
Ok thanks.
ralphm
Also yay for the dinner sponsor.
Guus
one thing that concerns me is a lack of salesware
Guus
if we do want to sell stuff, we should design/order things
ralphm
Yeah, I was thinking about this too. We have no swag left, in terms of clothing.
ralphm
Last year, there was a suggestion for a Summit-only t-shirt. I actually made a 'design' for it.
nyco
we're 10th Jan, it's late...
nyco
I mean to generate clothing
ralphm
I disagree
Guus
lets take this to the SCAM muc after the meeting
ralphm
yeah
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ralphm
4. Pseudonanymous Membership Applications
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MattJ
The annual discussion? :)
ralphm
I see there's a question on whether members can be anonymous or semi-anonymous. I think this was addressed in earlier years and the answer has always been no.
Guus
Is that an anuual thing? Never heard it before.
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Ge0rG
Me neither.
ralphm
How did this come up
Kev
People have too much time.
Ge0rG
ralphm: I was asked whether it's possible.
Guus
SOmeone asked Ge0rG , who asked us.
Ge0rG
All I found was the XEP that's next on the agenda
Guus
I am happy with not allowing it.
nyco
+0
MattJ
Yes, it's been discussed extensively in the past, and there are reasons it's not feasible or sensible (as nice as it may be in theory)
ralphm
There's no vote on this. I think it comes from our being a registered corporation for the state of Delaware.
Guus
There appears to be precedent to not allow it. On top of that, there might be legal issues related to accepting anonymous members into an organization where they can hold legal status.
Guus
well, ok then: no.
MattJ
Guus, exactly
Ge0rG
I'm happy with whatever the official answer is, and even more happy if it gets documented.
Guus
Ge0rG did just volunteer to do our minutes, I think. 🙂
MattJ
Heh
Seve
Ge0rG, thank you
Guus
AS Ge0rG suggested, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0345.html might be a good way to formalize this further.
Ge0rG
You don't want me to write minutes in my current mood, sorry.
Ge0rG
I'd be much more grumpy than usual. Also I'm affected by today's decisions.
Guus
it has been deferred, but has received earlier updates based on feedback. It has some editorial issues (spelling/punctuation) but looks good otherwise.
ralphm
I'm not opposed to resurrecting that XEP.
MattJ
I'm not opposed either, though I still have some issues with it
ralphm
Is the other item on typos referring to this XEP specifically?
Ge0rG
The XEP contains a clear statement that members must apply with their legal name.
Guus
ralphm I dont think so
MattJ
I think the typo thing is a general issue
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ralphm
ok
ralphm
Shall we ask the Editor to LC this XEP?
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ralphm
Then we can collect feedback and resolve issues we have with it ourselves.
Ge0rG
I *assume* that the typo thing is about whether a Deferred XEP should be re-promoted to Experimental when somebody fixes typos in it.
MattJ
I found a XEP of mine that should be deferred but only isn't because someone fixed something editorial
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Guus
deferred -> last call is a state transiation that's allowable✎
Guus
deferred -> last call is a state transiation that's allowable? ✏
ralphm
MattJ if you *want* a XEP to be 'deferred' maybe you should retract it.
MattJ
I don't, I'm glad it's not deferred :)
MattJ
But it still feels wrong
Ge0rG
there is another processual thing coming up, regarding https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/727 - we can't move from "Deferred" to "Deprecated" currently, and that might be useful.
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Guus
ok, to many topics at the same time now, I think 🙂 I'm starting to loose track.
dwd
(Although I did ask that to be run past the community, since Council isn't in consensus about that)
Ge0rG
What dwd said
ralphm
On XEP-0345.
ralphm
We can ask the Editor to undefer it.
ralphm
Then put it to LC. I'm not sure if that requires any changes to the document.
Guus
I'd be happy with that
Kev
XEP 1 talks about updated versions of XEPs, and I don't think a typo can be considered an updated XEP in any substantive way, it's an editorial change. Until recently we wouldn't even have updated the patch number.
ralphm
Yes, but for XEP-0345 specifically, XEP-0001 says the Editor can decide to change back to Deferred at will.
Seveagrees with Kev
ralphm
(This agenda item is *only* about members applications, really)
Ge0rG
you could vote on asking the Editor for doing whatever is needed to LC 345
jonas’
i put details on the typo thing in the card description
ralphm
So, besides Guus, who else agrees we will ask the Editor to put XEP-0345 to LC?
MattJ
I agree
ralphm
nyco, Seve?
jonas’
regarding deferred -> lc, I think theres something in the prose of '0001
Guus
(thanks ralphm )
ralphm
jonas’: I read it, not directly, but I think it can be done as described above.
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Guus
jonas’ We'd like to revive the XEP, with eventually it going to LC.
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jonas’
sorry I'm on mobile
Seve
I agree, ralphm
Ge0rG
> Note that if a XEP is Deferred, the XMPP Extensions Editor may at some point re-assign it to Experimental status
Guus
if deferred -> LC is not a valid transition, then we can go through one that is valid first.
nyco
+1
ralphm
Let the records show that the Board would like the Editor to move XEP-0345 back to Experimental, and then, in a separate step, put it to Proposed.
ralphm
5. E-mail issue
ralphm
I understand the Seve has now received Board e-mails.
Guus
emails from wiki work again, seve receives emails too now.
ralphm
yay!
Guus
seems resolved as far as I can tell
Seve
Yes, very happy :)
Guus
iteam let me know that action was taken to remove us from a blacklist
ralphm
6. GitHub Issue 497
ralphm
https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/497
jonas’
does an LC for '345 go to standards@ and/or members@ or what? it's procedural and affects membership
Guus
I put that up, before the comments on that issue poured in
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Guus
jonas’ when in doubt, spam everyone.
jonas’
Guus: I understand
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ralphm
jonas’: to members
jonas’
ugh I lag a lot I think
Guus
As for 497: I think Peter implicitly acknowledged that such an agreement was once made. Therefor, I feel we should honor it and restore the thingy on the website.
ralphm
This is about the xmpp.org domain having been donated, and requiring a notice to that end on our website.
ralphm
We should clean up our list of sponsors, and just put a logo for OpenDomain in that sponsor cloud
Guus
we'll work with them on the 'how'
Guus
my primary concern for putting this on our board was to see if it was legit.
Guus
that since has been established.
ralphm
Yes
ralphm
ok
ralphm
7. Clarify typos in Deferred XEPs
Guus
jonas’ wrote: > I (Editor) ask that we clarify XEP-0001 in such a way that editorial changes to Deferred XEPs do not automatically un-defer them, while non-editorial changes do.
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Guus
that seems sensible to me.
Kev
I think it's already that, pretty much.
ralphm
I don't think that fixing a typo is considered a change if it doesn't change anything substantial.
ralphm
I'm happy for the Editor to make that call.
Kev
XEP1 talks about x.y versions as being updates, and we publish editorial under x.y.z.
Guus
we might go one step further and state that editorial changed do not change the state of a XEP at all.✎
Guus
we might go one step further and state that editorial changes do not change the state of a XEP at all. ✏
Kev
Tightening up the wording here seems fine, but I don't think this is a change from what XEP1 is telling us to do.
Seve
+1 Guus
Guus
even better
MattJ
Yep
ralphm
So we don't have to do anything?
Guus
just confirm to our editor that he's right.
Guus
well, he asks us to clarify the text
Guus
we'll ask him to draft a proposal for that clarification then 🙂
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ralphm
Ok
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ralphm
8. AOB?
nyco
nope
ralphm
(some of the other items are pending as per agenda item 2 above)
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Guus
i don't have an AOB.
MattJ
Nothing here (I do have some low priority things but we're already quite over time and I have another meeting in a moment)
Ge0rG
ralphm: do you have an estimate on how long the resolution of the JabberSPAM trademark request will take?
Ge0rG When I asked Daniel about per-device passwords or Web-API-style tokens, he mentioned also client-side certificates. Not the same thing as 2FA, but related issue.
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Zash
Mmmm https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0257.html
Guus
I seem to recall that dwd worked on this.
Guus
ah, he's the author of XEP-0388, so yeah.
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Guus
I updated/archived a bunch of Trello cards.
MattJ
Thanks
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Guus
jonas’ do you need further info on either question you initiated?
jonas’
Guus, the typo thing seems to be well-addressed to me
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jonas’
The LC thing is mostly clear, but I’m not sure why you’re insisting on having this in two separate actions?
Guus
you asked for a change in XEP-0001 - can you prepare a concrete proposal?
jonas’
Do you want two separate emails?
jonas’
Guus, I can, can you send me an email about that?
Guus
jonas’ please use the optimal path that's available. I'm unsure of a state transition from 'deferred' to 'last call' is permitted in XEP-0001.
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Guus
we simply want to revive that XEP.
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ralphm
For those no in summit@muc.xmpp.org, yet, but interested in talking about all things FOSDEM / Summit, please go there.
ralphm
(no->not)
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Guus
jonas’ mail regarding https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0345.html sent (to members - with an invitation for anyone to review)
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dwd
edhelas, Yeah, At Surevine we built a web-based 2FA thing around SASL2, TOTP, etc. The XEPs and one internet-draft came out of it, as well as some code (for Openfire, open source, rough shape).
dwd
edhelas, Surevine still have a stanza.io implementation, but I don't believe that is or will be open sourced.
pep.
Half-Shot, hey, do you have any estimates (or resources showing these estimates) on how many matrix servers there are out there federating?
edhelas
ah I'm interested
edhelas
dwd what kind of 2FA did you used ? the Google Auth thing ?
dwd
edhelas, https://kitten.ietf.narkive.com/OsJEMivx/totp-in-sasl-in-xmpp is a breif for the Kittin folks in IETF. But yes, we used TOTP.
edhelas, The IETF used to have a working group called CAT, for Common Authentication Technologies. When it was restarted later, it was obviously called KITTEN, as "Son of CAT".
edhelas
someday we'll write books about that
Zash
Return of the Two Cats
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dwd
edhelas, Anyway, it all worked with Google Authenticator and stuff. Handled "remember this browser" stuff and so on, as well as handling session reconnect without re-TOTP (or manual reauth, sometimes).
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jonas’
Guus, I’m not sure whether "such a transition does not exist" is meaningful when the editor can Un-Defer at will
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jonas’
Guus et al.: The normal Last Call template (see for example https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2019-January/035623.html ) does not really fit the XEP-0345 last call.