XSF Discussion - 2019-01-13


  1. Half-ShotX has left

  2. l has left

  3. efrit has joined

  4. 404.city has joined

  5. Half-ShotX has left

  6. moparisthebest has joined

  7. Half-ShotX has left

  8. labdsf has left

  9. labdsf has joined

  10. UsL has left

  11. UsL has joined

  12. l has joined

  13. efrit has left

  14. Half-ShotX has left

  15. l has left

  16. nyco has left

  17. tux has joined

  18. l has joined

  19. Half-ShotX has left

  20. Half-ShotX has left

  21. edhelas has left

  22. edhelas has joined

  23. l has left

  24. Half-ShotX has left

  25. Half-ShotX has left

  26. Zash has left

  27. genofire has left

  28. Half-ShotX has left

  29. genofire has left

  30. alexis has joined

  31. alexis has left

  32. alexis has joined

  33. Half-ShotX has left

  34. lumi has joined

  35. l has left

  36. Half-ShotX has left

  37. alexis has left

  38. alexis has joined

  39. lorddavidiii has left

  40. lorddavidiii has joined

  41. lorddavidiii has left

  42. lorddavidiii has joined

  43. alexis has left

  44. alexis has joined

  45. lskdjf has joined

  46. Half-ShotX has left

  47. Maranda has joined

  48. Half-ShotX has left

  49. alexis has left

  50. alexis has joined

  51. alacer has joined

  52. alexis has left

  53. alexis has joined

  54. Half-ShotX has left

  55. Half-ShotX has left

  56. moparisthebest has joined

  57. mrDoctorWho has joined

  58. alacer has left

  59. alacer has joined

  60. ThibG has left

  61. ThibG has joined

  62. Half-ShotX has left

  63. Half-ShotX has left

  64. alacer has left

  65. alexis has left

  66. alacer has joined

  67. Half-ShotX has left

  68. genofire has joined

  69. mtavares has joined

  70. mtavares has joined

  71. mtavares has joined

  72. alacer has left

  73. oli has left

  74. oli has joined

  75. mtavares has joined

  76. daniel has joined

  77. Half-ShotX has left

  78. sezuan has left

  79. Half-ShotX has left

  80. alacer has joined

  81. alacer has left

  82. alacer has joined

  83. jjrh has left

  84. jjrh has left

  85. Half-ShotX has left

  86. Half-ShotX has left

  87. Tobias has joined

  88. Tobias has joined

  89. moparisthebest has left

  90. Half-ShotX has left

  91. Half-ShotX has left

  92. Half-ShotX has left

  93. oli has left

  94. oli has joined

  95. oli has left

  96. oli has joined

  97. Yagiza has joined

  98. Half-ShotX has joined

  99. alacer has left

  100. oli has left

  101. oli has joined

  102. alacer has joined

  103. oli has left

  104. oli has joined

  105. alexis has joined

  106. alexis has left

  107. alexis has joined

  108. waqas has joined

  109. alexis has left

  110. alexis has joined

  111. mrDoctorWho has joined

  112. alexis has left

  113. alexis has joined

  114. Neustradamus has left

  115. moparisthebest has left

  116. alexis has joined

  117. alexis has joined

  118. alacer has left

  119. steven has left

  120. alacer has joined

  121. alacer has left

  122. alacer has joined

  123. alacer has left

  124. alexis has left

  125. alexis has joined

  126. Half-ShotX has left

  127. alexis has joined

  128. alacer has joined

  129. Zash has left

  130. Half-ShotX has joined

  131. ta has left

  132. 404.city has left

  133. Half-ShotX has left

  134. Half-ShotX has joined

  135. moparisthebest has joined

  136. ThibG has joined

  137. moparisthebest has joined

  138. nyco has left

  139. Half-ShotX has left

  140. Half-ShotX has joined

  141. Guus has left

  142. Guus has joined

  143. Half-ShotX has left

  144. Half-ShotX has joined

  145. alexis has left

  146. alexis has joined

  147. efrit has joined

  148. Half-ShotX has left

  149. Half-ShotX has joined

  150. alexis has joined

  151. rion has joined

  152. rion has left

  153. efrit has left

  154. 404.city has joined

  155. alexis has joined

  156. Half-ShotX has left

  157. Half-ShotX has joined

  158. ThibG has joined

  159. alexis has joined

  160. alexis has left

  161. alexis has joined

  162. Half-ShotX has left

  163. Half-ShotX has joined

  164. Nekit has joined

  165. oli has joined

  166. igoose has left

  167. igoose has joined

  168. Tobias has left

  169. Tobias has joined

  170. alexis has left

  171. vaulor has joined

  172. moparisthebest has left

  173. moparisthebest has joined

  174. mrDoctorWho has joined

  175. nyco has left

  176. lorddavidiii has left

  177. sezuan has left

  178. steven has joined

  179. lskdjf has joined

  180. 404.city has left

  181. mightyBroccoli has left

  182. mightyBroccoli has joined

  183. Maranda has left

  184. ta has left

  185. Maranda has joined

  186. nyco has left

  187. marc_ has joined

  188. lskdjf has left

  189. lskdjf has joined

  190. Zash has left

  191. genofire has left

  192. nyco has left

  193. alacer has left

  194. goffi has joined

  195. sezuan has left

  196. Zash has left

  197. Zash has left

  198. mrDoctorWho has joined

  199. vaulor has joined

  200. labdsf has left

  201. labdsf has joined

  202. Maranda has left

  203. Maranda has left

  204. ThibG has joined

  205. vaulor has joined

  206. mimi89999 has joined

  207. vaulor has joined

  208. jonas’

    Kev, https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/718 ping again :)

  209. jonas’

    MattJ, I’m going to need context on this one: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/696 These are non-editorial changes to a XEP which isn’t originally yours, which may well be fine, but I lack context which makes it obvious that it’s fine. Nobody has tried to ping the author either. And it has the [question] label. It is a very confusing thing.

  210. jonas’

    (Not to mention that I disagree with it on the technical level)

  211. MattJ

    Let's start with - what do you disagree with?

  212. genofire has left

  213. MattJ

    btw, "nobody has tried to ping the author" -> actually I discussed it with Sam before I did the work and made the PR

  214. jonas’

    but Sam isn’t the author

  215. MattJ

    He isn't?

  216. jonas’

    ohh

  217. jonas’

    I only saw the <author/> block, I missed the &sam;

  218. jonas’

    right, that works then

  219. jonas’

    (he also added a LGTM)

  220. MattJ

    Right

  221. nyco has left

  222. jonas’

    I disagree with the requirement of <stanza-id/>. Where is it even written down that a MUC adds one, barring MAM support from the MUC (which may be disabled for lots of reasons)? Why not use @id and require the #stable_id feature (nowadays at least)?

  223. genofire has left

  224. genofire has joined

  225. jonas’

    but that’s not a blocker for the merge anyways

  226. MattJ

    stable_id doesn't help anything in this case

  227. jonas’

    what am I missing?

  228. MattJ

    because two occupants can still legally use the same id

  229. jonas’

    I see

  230. Zash

    unique (full jid, id)

  231. jonas’

    MattJ, add a sender attribute to the <attach-to/> thing? I feel we discussed this at some point already…

  232. MattJ

    Zash, except you don't always see the real JID, and occupants can change nicks, and all the issues we always have with referring unambiguously to messages in MUCs

  233. jonas’

    occupants changing nicknames is irrelevant

  234. Zash

    MattJ: nyeh

  235. jonas’

    ah, no it’s not

  236. jonas’

    meh

  237. MattJ

    jonas’, yes, there were multiple options we discussed, this one came out as the (unclear) winner

  238. jonas’

    MattJ, then I’d still see the need for a feature on the MUC to discover that it will add a <stanza-id/>

  239. jonas’

    hm, no

  240. MattJ

    Client devs I polled preferred this one, because they are storing the stanza-id anyway

  241. jonas’

    because message attaching happens afterwards

  242. jonas’

    so it’s probably ok

  243. MattJ

    and it's a lot easier than implementing any other sender-matching logic

  244. jonas’

    't

  245. MattJ

    so I'm totally open to other approaches, but we didn't find any that everyone liked

  246. MattJ

    Except this one, which seemed the least worst

  247. jonas’

    the missing not is still not fixed though

  248. MattJ

    Yes, I/someone can fix that, and also clarify that obviously the MUC will need to add stanza-id for this to work (if that's not already in there)

  249. jonas’

    I’m in the process of merging a few PRs, so if you fix that missing 'not' now I can hit the merge button on that one

  250. MattJ

    I don't think I can right now

  251. jonas’

    ah, meh

  252. MattJ

    Give me a few to try and placate this toddler

  253. MattJ

    and maybe I can

  254. jonas’

    I’ll add it and you can review

  255. vaulor has joined

  256. jonas’

    MattJ, https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/696/files/eb87a3b0bc4aed4d1a80aa23354902a2c0001ee2..0edd42a89f5effa01434c69bbe84fa616477e1e7

  257. MattJ

    Looks good, thanks

  258. Holger has left

  259. jonas’

    merged!

  260. !xsf_Martin has joined

  261. Ge0rG

    Using stanza id from the MAM also means you can't attach to a message of your own if it's not round trip reflected yet.

  262. jonas’

    Ge0rG, is that a problem?

  263. jonas’

    in practice.

  264. Ge0rG

    jonas’: yes. A good client should allow writing messages while offline, and deliver those once reconnected.

  265. Ge0rG

    So now I need to remember the local reference, have a queue of messages waiting for an event, and not mess it up if 0198 happens in the middle

  266. pep.

    Aren't you already doing that for LMC?

  267. Ge0rG

    pep.: no, LMC is based on @id, which I generate when sending

  268. Ge0rG

    I'm not saying it's the right thing™, but it works independently of the server.

  269. jonas’

    Ge0rG, I don’t see a better solution though, given that you cannot rely on @id at all here...

  270. jonas’

    although I think it was also argued that we might not have to care at all

  271. MattJ

    and attaching to your own messages wasn't really the intention of the XEP, if that matters

  272. Ge0rG

    I think the topic of unambiguous message references is something that warrants a session at Summit, and it's a huge pity that I won't be able to attend.

  273. MattJ

    oh no :(

  274. jonas’

    Ge0rG, not even remotely?

  275. jonas’

    (pun not intended)

  276. Ge0rG

    I *might* dial into the webex, but no promises yet.

  277. jonas’

    I should see if I use one or two days off to attend remotely

  278. Ge0rG

    MattJ: I think we need to solve message referencing in the same way for all protocols, if possible.

  279. MattJ

    sgtm

  280. Ge0rG

    And IMVHO it is a viable thing to demand that modern clients create strongly unique ids, and to degrade service quality for clients that violate that.

  281. jonas’

    Ge0rG, I agree

  282. Ge0rG

    Which is why I'm insisting on using @id for those purposes

  283. jonas’

    but we need to figure out a way to do that which is safe against malicious clients

  284. Ge0rG

    And which is why I oppose origin-id.

  285. jonas’

    it’s "meh" when an attacker can duplicate your @id and then nobody can react or attach to your message anymore

  286. Ge0rG

    jonas’: the only solution I see for that is for a server to become the authority on message ids... Except what if there is a malicious server?

  287. Ge0rG

    A MUC could reject a message without @id, or with a duplicate @id, or even assign a new @id to that message for all but the sending participant.

  288. jonas’

    Ge0rG, then the sending participant won’t be able to match attachments correctly

  289. genofire has left

  290. jonas’

    which is fine for malicious entities obviously

  291. Ge0rG

    jonas’: and for clients that don't support attaching.

  292. jonas’

    a malicious MUC server is obviously an issue, but that’s a given

  293. genofire has joined

  294. jonas’

    Ge0rG, also true. But this requires a bunch of memory or CPU resoures on the MUC server to keep track of used IDs.

  295. Ge0rG

    jonas’: yes, and some kind of agreement about the history size...

  296. jonas’

    which brings me back to my suggestion of using cryptographic counters for messages and sync them on MUC join

  297. jonas’

    which is of course massively overengineered

  298. alacer has joined

  299. Ge0rG

    This is a bottomless pit, right? Can we please have a pragmatic solution?

  300. Zash

    Blockchain? :P

  301. jonas’

    the pragmatic solution is to use <stanza-id/> in group chats.

  302. Ge0rG

    Also one where the complexity is in the server, not in the client?

  303. jonas’

    which simply means you cannot react-to your unsent message

  304. jonas’

    that’s a minor issue methinks

  305. Ge0rG

    Did I mention that I hate stanza-id? :D

  306. jonas’

    yesn

  307. alexis has joined

  308. genofire has left

  309. genofire has joined

  310. alexis has left

  311. alexis has joined

  312. Maranda

    🤔

  313. Maranda

    🤯

  314. alacer has left

  315. nyco has left

  316. sezuan has left

  317. mimi89999 has joined

  318. genofire has left

  319. lnj has joined

  320. alacer has joined

  321. labdsf has left

  322. labdsf has joined

  323. Tobias has left

  324. Tobias has joined

  325. alacer has left

  326. alacer has joined

  327. oli has joined

  328. sezuan has left

  329. alacer has left

  330. alacer has joined

  331. lumi has joined

  332. vanitasvitae has left

  333. vanitasvitae has joined

  334. vanitasvitae has left

  335. vanitasvitae has joined

  336. j.r has joined

  337. alexis has left

  338. alexis has joined

  339. j.r has joined

  340. mimi89999 has joined

  341. mimi89999 has joined

  342. moparisthebest has joined

  343. j.r has joined

  344. j.r has joined

  345. mimi89999 has joined

  346. moparisthebest has joined

  347. alacer has left

  348. genofire has left

  349. alacer has joined

  350. alexis has left

  351. alexis has joined

  352. alacer has left

  353. alacer has joined

  354. alexis has left

  355. alexis has joined

  356. alexis has left

  357. alexis has joined

  358. alexis has left

  359. mrDoctorWho has joined

  360. alexis has joined

  361. ThibG has joined

  362. ThibG has joined

  363. sezuan has left

  364. valo has joined

  365. valo has joined

  366. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  367. Tobias has joined

  368. Tobias has joined

  369. alacer has left

  370. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  371. sezuan has left

  372. alacer has joined

  373. nyco has left

  374. alexis has left

  375. alexis has joined

  376. labdsf has left

  377. !xsf_Martin has joined

  378. mrDoctorWho has joined

  379. labdsf has joined

  380. Half-ShotX has left

  381. j.r has joined

  382. Half-ShotX has joined

  383. alexis has left

  384. alexis has joined

  385. Half-ShotX has left

  386. Half-ShotX has joined

  387. Half-ShotX has left

  388. vanitasvitae has left

  389. vanitasvitae has left

  390. Half-ShotX has joined

  391. Half-ShotX has left

  392. Half-ShotX has joined

  393. Half-ShotX has left

  394. j.r has joined

  395. frainz has left

  396. sezuan has left

  397. Half-ShotX has joined

  398. frainz has joined

  399. mtavares has joined

  400. Tobias has joined

  401. Half-ShotX has left

  402. Half-ShotX has joined

  403. alacer has left

  404. 404.city has joined

  405. Half-ShotX has left

  406. Half-ShotX has joined

  407. frainz has left

  408. frainz has joined

  409. oli has left

  410. j.r has left

  411. oli has joined

  412. Half-ShotX has left

  413. Half-ShotX has joined

  414. Seve has joined

  415. Half-ShotX has left

  416. labdsf has left

  417. labdsf has joined

  418. Half-ShotX has joined

  419. Half-ShotX has left

  420. Half-ShotX has joined

  421. Half-ShotX has left

  422. labdsf has left

  423. labdsf has joined

  424. Half-ShotX has joined

  425. 404.city has left

  426. neshtaxmpp has left

  427. neshtaxmpp has left

  428. oli has joined

  429. Half-ShotX has left

  430. Half-ShotX has joined

  431. waqas has left

  432. Half-ShotX has left

  433. sezuan has left

  434. Half-ShotX has joined

  435. oli has joined

  436. Half-ShotX has left

  437. j.r has left

  438. j.r has joined

  439. Half-ShotX has joined

  440. 404.city has joined

  441. Half-ShotX has left

  442. Half-ShotX has joined

  443. Half-ShotX has left

  444. Half-ShotX has joined

  445. sezuan has left

  446. goffi has joined

  447. Half-ShotX has left

  448. alexis has left

  449. alexis has joined

  450. Half-ShotX has joined

  451. 404.city has left

  452. neshtaxmpp has joined

  453. j.r has left

  454. j.r has left

  455. Half-ShotX has left

  456. j.r has left

  457. Maranda has left

  458. alexis has left

  459. alexis has joined

  460. alexis has left

  461. alexis has joined

  462. alexis has left

  463. mimi89999 has joined

  464. mimi89999 has joined

  465. alexis has joined

  466. Tobias has joined

  467. alexis has left

  468. alexis has joined

  469. j.r has left

  470. j.r has joined

  471. j.r has joined

  472. j.r has left

  473. mimi89999 has joined

  474. mimi89999 has left

  475. ThibG has left

  476. ThibG has joined

  477. alexis has left

  478. mightyBroccoli has left

  479. alexis has joined

  480. mightyBroccoli has joined

  481. mimi89999 has joined

  482. mimi89999 has joined

  483. alexis has left

  484. alexis has joined

  485. mimi89999 has joined

  486. mimi89999 has joined

  487. alexis has left

  488. alexis has joined

  489. mimi89999 has left

  490. mimi89999 has joined

  491. mimi89999 has left

  492. mimi89999 has left

  493. frainz has left

  494. mimi89999 has joined

  495. j.r has left

  496. j.r has joined

  497. j.r has left

  498. j.r has joined

  499. Half-ShotX has joined

  500. lumi has left

  501. frainz has joined

  502. daniel has joined

  503. Half-ShotX has left

  504. moparisthebest has joined

  505. lumi has joined

  506. Zash has left

  507. sezuan has left

  508. mightyBroccoli has left

  509. mightyBroccoli has joined

  510. Half-ShotX has joined

  511. j.r has joined

  512. labdsf has left

  513. Half-ShotX has left

  514. Half-ShotX has joined

  515. Half-ShotX has left

  516. labdsf has joined

  517. labdsf has left

  518. labdsf has joined

  519. Half-ShotX has joined

  520. Zash has left

  521. Half-ShotX has left

  522. moparisthebest has joined

  523. moparisthebest has joined

  524. j.r has joined

  525. Half-ShotX has joined

  526. Alex has joined

  527. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  528. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  529. alexis has left

  530. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  531. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  532. Half-ShotX has left

  533. Half-ShotX has joined

  534. labdsf has left

  535. labdsf has joined

  536. Half-ShotX has left

  537. Half-ShotX has joined

  538. labdsf has left

  539. labdsf has joined

  540. Alex has left

  541. frainz has left

  542. frainz has joined

  543. vanitasvitae has left

  544. vanitasvitae has joined

  545. ThibG has joined

  546. ThibG has joined

  547. tux has joined

  548. j.r has joined

  549. Half-ShotX has left

  550. APach has left

  551. Half-ShotX has joined

  552. j.r has joined

  553. APach has joined

  554. Half-ShotX has left

  555. Half-ShotX has joined

  556. vaulor has left

  557. mimi89999 has joined

  558. Neustradamus has left

  559. sezuan has left

  560. Yagiza has left

  561. SaltyBones has left

  562. oli has left

  563. oli has left

  564. oli has left

  565. Holger has left

  566. oli has left

  567. Half-ShotX has left

  568. marc_ has left

  569. marc_ has joined

  570. Half-ShotX has joined

  571. oli has left

  572. oli has left

  573. marc_ has left

  574. marc_ has joined

  575. Half-ShotX has left

  576. Half-ShotX has joined

  577. ta has left

  578. marc_ has left

  579. derdaniel has left

  580. derdaniel has joined

  581. derdaniel has left

  582. derdaniel has joined

  583. derdaniel has left

  584. derdaniel has joined

  585. goffi has joined

  586. Nekit has left

  587. Nekit has joined

  588. Half-ShotX has left

  589. Half-ShotX has joined

  590. Half-ShotX has left

  591. oli has left

  592. alexis has joined

  593. edhelas has left

  594. edhelas has joined

  595. Half-ShotX has joined

  596. edhelas has left

  597. vanitasvitae has left

  598. edhelas has joined

  599. lskdjf has joined

  600. lskdjf has joined

  601. j.r has joined

  602. Half-ShotX has left

  603. labdsf has left

  604. labdsf has joined

  605. lnj has left

  606. Half-ShotX has joined

  607. Tobias has joined

  608. labdsf has left

  609. labdsf has joined

  610. Half-ShotX has left

  611. Half-ShotX has joined

  612. l has joined

  613. Half-ShotX has left

  614. frainz has joined

  615. lorddavidiii has left

  616. Half-ShotX has joined

  617. steven has left

  618. steven has left

  619. sezuan has left

  620. daniel has joined

  621. daniel has joined

  622. Half-ShotX has left

  623. Half-ShotX has joined

  624. lorddavidiii has left

  625. thorsten has left

  626. thorsten has joined

  627. Neustradamus has left

  628. Neustradamus has joined

  629. lnj has left

  630. labdsf has left

  631. labdsf has joined

  632. goffi has joined

  633. lnj has left

  634. lnj has joined

  635. Half-ShotX has left

  636. lskdjf has joined

  637. lskdjf has joined

  638. Half-ShotX has joined

  639. Half-ShotX has left

  640. lnj has left

  641. labdsf has left

  642. labdsf has joined

  643. ThibG has left

  644. ThibG has joined

  645. Half-ShotX has joined

  646. Half-ShotX has left

  647. Half-ShotX has joined

  648. Half-ShotX has left

  649. MattJ has joined

  650. Half-ShotX has joined

  651. oli has left

  652. Half-ShotX has left

  653. Nekit has joined

  654. Half-ShotX has joined

  655. alexis has left

  656. pep. has joined

  657. alexis has joined