XSF Discussion - 2019-01-13

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  208. jonas’ Kev, https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/718 ping again :)
  209. jonas’ MattJ, I’m going to need context on this one: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/696 These are non-editorial changes to a XEP which isn’t originally yours, which may well be fine, but I lack context which makes it obvious that it’s fine. Nobody has tried to ping the author either. And it has the [question] label. It is a very confusing thing.
  210. jonas’ (Not to mention that I disagree with it on the technical level)
  211. MattJ Let's start with - what do you disagree with?
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  213. MattJ btw, "nobody has tried to ping the author" -> actually I discussed it with Sam before I did the work and made the PR
  214. jonas’ but Sam isn’t the author
  215. MattJ He isn't?
  216. jonas’ ohh
  217. jonas’ I only saw the <author/> block, I missed the &sam;
  218. jonas’ right, that works then
  219. jonas’ (he also added a LGTM)
  220. MattJ Right
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  222. jonas’ I disagree with the requirement of <stanza-id/>. Where is it even written down that a MUC adds one, barring MAM support from the MUC (which may be disabled for lots of reasons)? Why not use @id and require the #stable_id feature (nowadays at least)?
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  225. jonas’ but that’s not a blocker for the merge anyways
  226. MattJ stable_id doesn't help anything in this case
  227. jonas’ what am I missing?
  228. MattJ because two occupants can still legally use the same id
  229. jonas’ I see
  230. Zash unique (full jid, id)
  231. jonas’ MattJ, add a sender attribute to the <attach-to/> thing? I feel we discussed this at some point already…
  232. MattJ Zash, except you don't always see the real JID, and occupants can change nicks, and all the issues we always have with referring unambiguously to messages in MUCs
  233. jonas’ occupants changing nicknames is irrelevant
  234. Zash MattJ: nyeh
  235. jonas’ ah, no it’s not
  236. jonas’ meh
  237. MattJ jonas’, yes, there were multiple options we discussed, this one came out as the (unclear) winner
  238. jonas’ MattJ, then I’d still see the need for a feature on the MUC to discover that it will add a <stanza-id/>
  239. jonas’ hm, no
  240. MattJ Client devs I polled preferred this one, because they are storing the stanza-id anyway
  241. jonas’ because message attaching happens afterwards
  242. jonas’ so it’s probably ok
  243. MattJ and it's a lot easier than implementing any other sender-matching logic
  244. jonas’ 't
  245. MattJ so I'm totally open to other approaches, but we didn't find any that everyone liked
  246. MattJ Except this one, which seemed the least worst
  247. jonas’ the missing not is still not fixed though
  248. MattJ Yes, I/someone can fix that, and also clarify that obviously the MUC will need to add stanza-id for this to work (if that's not already in there)
  249. jonas’ I’m in the process of merging a few PRs, so if you fix that missing 'not' now I can hit the merge button on that one
  250. MattJ I don't think I can right now
  251. jonas’ ah, meh
  252. MattJ Give me a few to try and placate this toddler
  253. MattJ and maybe I can
  254. jonas’ I’ll add it and you can review
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  256. jonas’ MattJ, https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/696/files/eb87a3b0bc4aed4d1a80aa23354902a2c0001ee2..0edd42a89f5effa01434c69bbe84fa616477e1e7
  257. MattJ Looks good, thanks
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  259. jonas’ merged!
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  261. Ge0rG Using stanza id from the MAM also means you can't attach to a message of your own if it's not round trip reflected yet.
  262. jonas’ Ge0rG, is that a problem?
  263. jonas’ in practice.
  264. Ge0rG jonas’: yes. A good client should allow writing messages while offline, and deliver those once reconnected.
  265. Ge0rG So now I need to remember the local reference, have a queue of messages waiting for an event, and not mess it up if 0198 happens in the middle
  266. pep. Aren't you already doing that for LMC?
  267. Ge0rG pep.: no, LMC is based on @id, which I generate when sending
  268. Ge0rG I'm not saying it's the right thing™, but it works independently of the server.
  269. jonas’ Ge0rG, I don’t see a better solution though, given that you cannot rely on @id at all here...
  270. jonas’ although I think it was also argued that we might not have to care at all
  271. MattJ and attaching to your own messages wasn't really the intention of the XEP, if that matters
  272. Ge0rG I think the topic of unambiguous message references is something that warrants a session at Summit, and it's a huge pity that I won't be able to attend.
  273. MattJ oh no :(
  274. jonas’ Ge0rG, not even remotely?
  275. jonas’ (pun not intended)
  276. Ge0rG I *might* dial into the webex, but no promises yet.
  277. jonas’ I should see if I use one or two days off to attend remotely
  278. Ge0rG MattJ: I think we need to solve message referencing in the same way for all protocols, if possible.
  279. MattJ sgtm
  280. Ge0rG And IMVHO it is a viable thing to demand that modern clients create strongly unique ids, and to degrade service quality for clients that violate that.
  281. jonas’ Ge0rG, I agree
  282. Ge0rG Which is why I'm insisting on using @id for those purposes
  283. jonas’ but we need to figure out a way to do that which is safe against malicious clients
  284. Ge0rG And which is why I oppose origin-id.
  285. jonas’ it’s "meh" when an attacker can duplicate your @id and then nobody can react or attach to your message anymore
  286. Ge0rG jonas’: the only solution I see for that is for a server to become the authority on message ids... Except what if there is a malicious server?
  287. Ge0rG A MUC could reject a message without @id, or with a duplicate @id, or even assign a new @id to that message for all but the sending participant.
  288. jonas’ Ge0rG, then the sending participant won’t be able to match attachments correctly
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  290. jonas’ which is fine for malicious entities obviously
  291. Ge0rG jonas’: and for clients that don't support attaching.
  292. jonas’ a malicious MUC server is obviously an issue, but that’s a given
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  294. jonas’ Ge0rG, also true. But this requires a bunch of memory or CPU resoures on the MUC server to keep track of used IDs.
  295. Ge0rG jonas’: yes, and some kind of agreement about the history size...
  296. jonas’ which brings me back to my suggestion of using cryptographic counters for messages and sync them on MUC join
  297. jonas’ which is of course massively overengineered
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  299. Ge0rG This is a bottomless pit, right? Can we please have a pragmatic solution?
  300. Zash Blockchain? :P
  301. jonas’ the pragmatic solution is to use <stanza-id/> in group chats.
  302. Ge0rG Also one where the complexity is in the server, not in the client?
  303. jonas’ which simply means you cannot react-to your unsent message
  304. jonas’ that’s a minor issue methinks
  305. Ge0rG Did I mention that I hate stanza-id? :D
  306. jonas’ yesn
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  313. Maranda 🤯
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