XSF Discussion - 2019-01-17

  1. lskdjf has left
  2. Half-ShotX has left
  3. Half-ShotX has joined
  4. lskdjf has left
  5. pep. has left
  6. Maranda has joined
  7. Maranda has joined
  8. lskdjf has left
  9. genofire has left
  10. andrey.g has left
  11. lskdjf has joined
  12. Half-ShotX has left
  13. Half-ShotX has joined
  14. thorsten has left
  15. thorsten has joined
  16. alexis has left
  17. alexis has joined
  18. andrey.g has joined
  19. Half-ShotX has left
  20. Half-ShotX has joined
  21. lskdjf has left
  22. UsL has left
  23. UsL has joined
  24. Half-ShotX has left
  25. Half-ShotX has joined
  26. Half-ShotX has left
  27. lskdjf has left
  28. lskdjf has left
  29. jjrh has left
  30. winfried has left
  31. Half-ShotX has joined
  32. jjrh has left
  33. lskdjf has left
  34. winfried has left
  35. Half-ShotX has left
  36. Half-ShotX has joined
  37. lskdjf has joined
  38. lskdjf has joined
  39. winfried has left
  40. lskdjf has left
  41. lskdjf has left
  42. Half-ShotX has left
  43. lskdjf has left
  44. lskdjf has left
  45. lskdjf has left
  46. Half-ShotX has joined
  47. lskdjf has left
  48. lskdjf has left
  49. Half-ShotX has left
  50. 404.city has joined
  51. alexis has left
  52. 404.city has left
  53. 404.city has joined
  54. Half-ShotX has joined
  55. lskdjf has joined
  56. efrit has left
  57. alexis has joined
  58. Maranda has joined
  59. Maranda has joined
  60. Half-ShotX has left
  61. Half-ShotX has joined
  62. Half-ShotX has left
  63. 404.city has left
  64. Half-ShotX has joined
  65. alexis has left
  66. alexis has joined
  67. jjrh has left
  68. Half-ShotX has left
  69. Half-ShotX has joined
  70. alexis has left
  71. alexis has joined
  72. jjrh has left
  73. Zash has left
  74. Half-ShotX has left
  75. Half-ShotX has joined
  76. 404.city has joined
  77. lorddavidiii has left
  78. lorddavidiii has joined
  79. alexis has left
  80. lorddavidiii has left
  81. lorddavidiii has joined
  82. alexis has joined
  83. l has left
  84. Half-ShotX has left
  85. Half-ShotX has joined
  86. 404.city has left
  87. 404.city has joined
  88. Half-ShotX has left
  89. daniel has joined
  90. neshtaxmpp has left
  91. neshtaxmpp has left
  92. alexis has left
  93. alexis has joined
  94. jjrh has left
  95. lumi has left
  96. Half-ShotX has joined
  97. l has joined
  98. lskdjf has joined
  99. Half-ShotX has left
  100. jjrh has left
  101. jjrh has left
  102. jjrh has left
  103. Half-ShotX has joined
  104. jjrh has left
  105. Zash has left
  106. moparisthebest has joined
  107. Half-ShotX has left
  108. Half-ShotX has joined
  109. moparisthebest has joined
  110. Half-ShotX has left
  111. Half-ShotX has joined
  112. mtavares has joined
  113. Half-ShotX has left
  114. Half-ShotX has joined
  115. Half-ShotX has left
  116. 404.city has left
  117. Half-ShotX has joined
  118. Half-ShotX has left
  119. Half-ShotX has joined
  120. jjrh has left
  121. Half-ShotX has left
  122. Half-ShotX has joined
  123. Half-ShotX has left
  124. Half-ShotX has joined
  125. ta Just saying vanitasvitae is right. Language was not the main reason for banning, but you might have noticed that already.
  126. alexis has left
  127. alexis has joined
  128. Half-ShotX has left
  129. Half-ShotX has joined
  130. daniel has joined
  131. alexis has left
  132. alexis has joined
  133. ThibG has joined
  134. Half-ShotX has left
  135. Half-ShotX has joined
  136. alexis has joined
  137. Half-ShotX has left
  138. alexis has left
  139. alexis has joined
  140. ta has left
  141. Nekit has joined
  142. Half-ShotX has joined
  143. Yagiza has joined
  144. Half-ShotX has left
  145. Half-ShotX has joined
  146. Half-ShotX has left
  147. Half-ShotX has joined
  148. Half-ShotX has left
  149. Half-ShotX has joined
  150. alexis has left
  151. alexis has joined
  152. sezuan has left
  153. alexis has left
  154. alexis has joined
  155. Half-ShotX has left
  156. Half-ShotX has joined
  157. oli has joined
  158. vaulor has joined
  159. Half-ShotX has left
  160. Half-ShotX has joined
  161. sezuan has left
  162. Tobias has joined
  163. alexis has left
  164. Ann has left
  165. Ann has joined
  166. Ann has left
  167. Ann has joined
  168. alexis has joined
  169. oli has left
  170. oli has joined
  171. Ann has left
  172. alexis has left
  173. oli has joined
  174. oli has joined
  175. Half-ShotX has left
  176. Half-ShotX has joined
  177. Half-ShotX has left
  178. alexis has joined
  179. oli has left
  180. oli has joined
  181. Half-ShotX has joined
  182. ta has left
  183. sezuan has left
  184. Guus has left
  185. Guus has left
  186. Yagiza has left
  187. labdsf has left
  188. Guus has left
  189. Tobias has joined
  190. Guus has left
  191. Nekit has left
  192. Nekit has joined
  193. goffi has joined
  194. Guus has left
  195. efrit has joined
  196. andy has joined
  197. andy has left
  198. andy has joined
  199. vaulor has left
  200. Seve has left
  201. Guus has left
  202. Seve has joined
  203. Tobias has joined
  204. Half-ShotX has left
  205. Half-ShotX has joined
  206. rion has joined
  207. vaulor has joined
  208. efrit has left
  209. alacer has joined
  210. thorsten has left
  211. thorsten has joined
  212. oli has joined
  213. alacer has left
  214. Half-ShotX has left
  215. Half-ShotX has joined
  216. Half-ShotX has left
  217. oli has left
  218. oli has joined
  219. labdsf has joined
  220. oli has joined
  221. oli has joined
  222. Half-ShotX has joined
  223. Maranda has left
  224. Maranda has joined
  225. Half-ShotX has left
  226. remko has joined
  227. Half-ShotX has joined
  228. Steve Kille has left
  229. rion has left
  230. rion has left
  231. Steve Kille has joined
  232. Ge0rG has joined
  233. Half-ShotX has left
  234. Half-ShotX has joined
  235. Half-ShotX has left
  236. Half-ShotX has joined
  237. dwd jonas’, Thought - given Last Call has three outcomes (back to Experimental, Reject, or Draft), should we explicitly ask people in the (now traditional) Last Call questions which should happen?
  238. Ge0rG dwd: that would be great.
  239. pep. I think that's a good idea
  240. l has joined
  241. l has left
  242. Half-ShotX has left
  243. Half-ShotX has joined
  244. ThibG has joined
  245. ThibG has joined
  246. jonas’ dwd, seems smart
  247. jonas’ dwd, PR welcome, the template is in xsf/xeps:tools/send-updates.py
  248. dwd jonas’, https://twitter.com/clonezone/status/162319083860271104
  249. l has joined
  250. alexis has left
  251. jonas’ dwd, -EATWORK, otherwise I would have done it myself.
  252. alexis has joined
  253. ThibG has left
  254. ThibG has joined
  255. Half-ShotX has left
  256. Half-ShotX has joined
  257. andy has left
  258. andy has joined
  259. APach has left
  260. rion has left
  261. 404.city has joined
  262. Holger has left
  263. Yagiza has joined
  264. APach has joined
  265. Half-ShotX has left
  266. Half-ShotX has joined
  267. Guus For the record: my "patches welcome" are most often "I don't have time to work on that now."
  268. edhelas Guus damn, stop saying out loud our dirty little secrets
  269. andy has left
  270. andy has joined
  271. andy has left
  272. andy has joined
  273. Half-ShotX has left
  274. pep. Why do you think I open tickets
  275. Half-ShotX has joined
  276. Guus edhelas I'm just arguing against the "patches welcome" equals "fuck off" statement. I think that's an unfair one.
  277. Guus (I was also wondering for a moment why Jonas is eating his work).
  278. igoose has left
  279. igoose has joined
  280. Half-ShotX has left
  281. lskdjf has joined
  282. Half-ShotX has joined
  283. nyco has left
  284. ralphm Guus: I use it to mean: "I think that's a great idea, including you putting in some work in to make it happen."
  285. ralphm -in
  286. ralphm I often see people vaguely guesturing in a direction, hoping that someone will pick up the work for them.
  287. lskdjf has left
  288. lskdjf has joined
  289. Kev I use it mostly for "I don't care about this issue. If you care enough then put the work in and do it, instead of telling me I should be", I think.
  290. Kev Which might be a rephrasing of Ralph's :)
  291. Half-ShotX has left
  292. Half-ShotX has joined
  293. Guus Seems fair to say that it means different things to different people.
  294. Guus (also, "having time" is often a matter of prioritization).
  295. ralphm Sure, it is about not making time to do something.
  296. lnj has joined
  297. daniel has joined
  298. 404.city has left
  299. Ge0rG MattJ: can we get an author column in your XEPs SQL please?
  300. Guus (prettyplease respond with: "patches welcome")
  301. Guus 😇
  302. Half-ShotX has left
  303. Half-ShotX has joined
  304. ralphm http://www.cutestpage.com/pictures/Pretty_Please_Cat.jpg
  305. Yagiza has left
  306. Half-ShotX has left
  307. Half-ShotX has joined
  308. MattJ Ge0rG, what column?
  309. Ge0rG MattJ: I wanted to group by author on https://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/xepql/
  310. MattJ or was that a joke? I didn't read the backlog :)
  311. MattJ Right, author. I haven't done that yet because I wasn't sure how to represent it - a XEP can have multiple authors
  312. MattJ so either I condense it into a string or make a second table
  313. MattJ s/I/you/
  314. Ge0rG there are also authors who are also XML entities, like &dcridland;
  315. lnj has left
  316. MattJ Oh, also authors aren't in xeplist.xml
  317. dwd I am not an XML Entity, I am a free man!
  318. dwd MattJ, Second table, BTW. Otherwise you'll need to decide whether XEP-0001 gets sorted as PSA or me, for instance.
  319. MattJ Right
  320. Half-ShotX has left
  321. Half-ShotX has joined
  322. ralphm I'm surprised that there are authors who aren't entities.
  323. dwd It used to be an automatic thing that you were put as an entity on your first XEP being adopted.
  324. dwd Mostly so that if you changed affiliation/address, it got changed for all your XEPs.
  325. dwd (Reminds me, I should PR my new contact details)
  326. Ge0rG has left
  327. pep. "dwd> It used to be an automatic thing that you were put as an entity on your first XEP being adopted.", some kind of elevation? :)
  328. dwd pep., Purely a management thing by PSA, I think.
  329. dwd pep., Although I like the idea of PSA, as constitutional monarch, creating someone an XML entity, like being created a peer of the realm.
  330. pep. (I meant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elevation_(emotion) :P)
  331. pep. heh
  332. Neustradamus has left
  333. Neustradamus has joined
  334. Zash has left
  335. Half-ShotX has left
  336. Half-ShotX has joined
  337. Zash has left
  338. ralphm has joined
  339. intosi has joined
  340. ralphm dwd: but taking you as an example, XEPS 0399, 0400, and 0402 don't use your XML entity.
  341. ralphm (also several specs in the inbox)
  342. ralphm so at least we're not doing this consistently
  343. lskdjf has joined
  344. Ge0rG dwd: should the order of authors be represented as well?
  345. Half-ShotX has left
  346. Half-ShotX has joined
  347. dwd ralphm, That's probably not good.
  348. ralphm surely not good, I'd say
  349. ralphm It would probably be very useful to replace all <author/> blocks with entities.
  350. ralphm And have a pass at each author's details. Many of them have moved companies, etc.
  351. ralphm (cue patches welcome)
  352. jonas’ ralphm, file an issue, it is on my editor todo in my head anyways
  353. ralphm jonas’: I will!
  354. Guus (file a pr while you're at it *badumtissh*
  355. ThibG has left
  356. ThibG has joined
  357. Zash has left
  358. daniel has joined
  359. Half-ShotX has left
  360. Half-ShotX has joined
  361. ralphm Guus: too late, I already suggested that
  362. Guus you only cue'd it. I see us as a well oiled machine: you line 'm up, I finish 'm.
  363. Guus also, let's argue more about this!
  364. Guus shall stop procrastinating now.
  365. Half-ShotX has left
  366. Half-ShotX has joined
  367. lumi has joined
  368. lnj has joined
  369. moparisthebest has joined
  370. Half-ShotX has left
  371. Half-ShotX has joined
  372. moparisthebest has joined
  373. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  374. ralphm :-D
  375. frainz has joined
  376. genofire has left
  377. daniel has joined
  378. alexis has joined
  379. Half-ShotX has left
  380. Half-ShotX has joined
  381. Zash has joined
  382. Half-ShotX has left
  383. Half-ShotX has joined
  384. intosi has left
  385. intosi has joined
  386. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  387. !xsf_Martin has joined
  388. Half-ShotX has left
  389. Half-ShotX has joined
  390. jjrh has left
  391. Tobias has joined
  392. Tobias has joined
  393. labdsf has left
  394. Half-ShotX has left
  395. Half-ShotX has joined
  396. labdsf has joined
  397. Zash has left
  398. Tobias has left
  399. Tobias has joined
  400. Half-ShotX has left
  401. Half-ShotX has joined
  402. Half-ShotX has left
  403. Half-ShotX has joined
  404. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  405. frainz has left
  406. frainz has joined
  407. alacer has joined
  408. efrit has joined
  409. thorsten has left
  410. thorsten has joined
  411. moparisthebest has left
  412. Half-ShotX has left
  413. Half-ShotX has joined
  414. alacer has left
  415. efrit has left
  416. Half-ShotX has left
  417. Half-ShotX has joined
  418. alacer has joined
  419. Half-ShotX has left
  420. Half-ShotX has joined
  421. pep. has left
  422. Half-ShotX has left
  423. Half-ShotX has joined
  424. labdsf has left
  425. labdsf has joined
  426. Ge0rG What's the ETA to Board Meeting?
  427. Guus 12 minutes from now.
  428. Ge0rG Thanks.
  429. Half-ShotX has left
  430. Half-ShotX has joined
  431. APach has left
  432. Steve Kille has left
  433. Half-ShotX has left
  434. Half-ShotX has joined
  435. Guus which is now.
  436. Half-ShotX has left
  437. Ge0rG Wow.
  438. nyco Boom
  439. Guus ralphm / nyco / MattJ ?
  440. Guus Seve
  441. nyco for whom the gavel bangs
  442. Guus I got scared by that boom 🙂
  443. ralphm here
  444. nyco ah, too loud, sorry
  445. ralphm bangs gavel
  446. ralphm 0. Welcome + Agenda
  447. MattJ Here
  448. ralphm I'm in a video conference, too, but I'll try to manage.
  449. nyco is it an open standards, at least?
  450. Guus good luck 🙂
  451. ralphm nyco: bluejeans :-(
  452. nyco I'm in a Trello board, too, but I'll try to manage 😉 https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  453. ralphm Seve?
  454. ralphm 1. Minutes
  455. Seve Here
  456. ralphm Who can take notes and issue minutes?
  457. ralphm dwd maybe?
  458. Guus phonecall, afk
  459. ralphm This is proving to be a problem. I think we should explicitly ask for volunteers on the members list.
  460. ralphm I'll send an e-mail about this.
  461. MattJ +1
  462. jonas’ I happen to be here for a change, so I can do it
  463. MattJ Sorry, I really can't offer right now
  464. ralphm jonas’: thanks, sir!
  465. Guus (back)
  466. MattJ Thanks jonas’!
  467. ralphm 2. GSoC
  468. ralphm Are there any updates on this?
  469. Guus flow might have more, but
  470. flow Working on the application and preparing a blog post, ETA 1-2days
  471. Guus our application was registered, at least flow and myself are signed up as org admin.
  472. MattJ That's great news
  473. Guus (do we need to keep this in Board's trello?)
  474. ralphm flow: do we have project proposals already?
  475. nyco (no need for me to keep it in Board's board)
  476. flow ralphm, not yet, that is why I am preparing a blog post asking for projects to submit their proposal(s)
  477. flow (sorry, on phone, hence a I'm bit slow to respond)
  478. Half-ShotX has joined
  479. ThibG has joined
  480. ralphm I think it might be good to keep on the agenda to keep track of the process until submission. It might also be good to review the final application before we send it in, as we as an organization will make certain promises about things like replacing mentors if they disappear, and such.
  481. ralphm flow: ok thanks.
  482. ralphm 3. Summit / FOSDEM
  483. ralphm People are signing up for hotels.
  484. ralphm We will issue the form for Dinner soon.
  485. ralphm Make sure to select the Dame Blanche, of course.
  486. Seve smiles
  487. Guus :rolleyes:
  488. nyco (note: I might not be able to join this year, my kid's broken leg...)
  489. Guus nyco 😞
  490. ralphm Guus and I also happened to have a bit of a chat (after talking to Peter, later in this meeting) on what to do with hoodies/t-shirts, etc.
  491. Half-ShotX has left
  492. ralphm Still some more discussion to make a final call on this, but we're thinking of issuing a new batch of hoodies like last time, and possibly Summit-specific t-shirts. Ideas welcome in the summit MUC room.
  493. ralphm nyco: nooooh!
  494. Guus The FOSDEM stand space still concerns me. We have not been allotted a lot of space this year.
  495. pep. :o
  496. ralphm Yes, this will be a challenge, but we'll manage I'm sure. I've requested the organization if it would be possible to have the vending machines removed.
  497. nyco please, no VLC! I love them, they are friends... but... too loud, too much presences, we are hidden...
  498. jonas’ (summit MUC = xmpp:summit@muc.xmpp.org?join I assume?)
  499. ralphm Also for contact details of the people next to us, so we can send them some info on what we plan to do.
  500. ralphm jonas’: yes
  501. Seve True, I completely agree
  502. Guus nyco they'll be at the same spot again
  503. Guus jonas’ yes
  504. jonas’ I lack context
  505. nyco if we have more space towards the stairs, we can occupy less space close to the vending machines, allowing free/open access
  506. jonas’ about the booth VLC thing
  507. ralphm nyco: the stands have already been assigned, and there's nothing we can do to change the current assignments.
  508. ralphm However
  509. Guus jonas’ the VLC crowd is very ... present. 🙂
  510. ralphm We will have a discussion for next year. FOSDEM has some ideas on this that are probably better discussed in person.
  511. nyco so we have to be creative to "exist" and be more visible
  512. jonas’ Guus, I got that much, why does it concern us though?
  513. ralphm nyco: yes
  514. Seve jonas’, they make a great job about engaging with people and we are quite behind them, so it is hard for us to get noticed, but it is more because of where is our place
  515. nyco you say too much or too little 😉
  516. Guus let's move this discussion into the SCAM room though.
  517. jonas’ Seve, that was the missing bit of info, thanks
  518. nyco right, SCAM
  519. ralphm ok, let's move
  520. jonas’ SCAM MUC = ?
  521. Guus scam@muc.xmpp.org
  522. nyco scam@muc.xmpp.org
  523. nyco too fast!
  524. jonas’ found it
  525. ralphm 4. Chat with Peter
  526. jonas’ (should use the muc search next time!)
  527. ralphm The chat with Peter was had!
  528. Guus (and enjoyable)
  529. ralphm We covered three topics
  530. ralphm (yes!)
  531. ralphm First the question on the Executive Director.
  532. Half-ShotX has joined
  533. ralphm The idea behind this function is that usually the Board provides direction...
  534. ralphm and the ED makes it happen (with others)
  535. ralphm much like in business corps
  536. nyco "exectutant" it is, then
  537. nyco "executant" it is, then
  538. nyco so, do we need one?
  539. Guus Peter also referred to being the 'face of the organziation' in that role
  540. ralphm Currently, the Board seems to do both. As such it might not make sense to actually have an ED right now.
  541. ralphm Indeed
  542. nyco or a member could be the ED
  543. Guus I concur with ralphm . Peter thought the same: we don't necessarily need someone in that role now.
  544. Half-ShotX has left
  545. ralphm nyco: well, the point is that Board usually appoints an ED
  546. Half-ShotX has joined
  547. ralphm whoever that is
  548. winfried has left
  549. Guus To prevent us from having to make adjustments to the bylaws, I suggest we keep the role, but agree to not currently appoint anyone.
  550. MattJ Can the person be a Board member?
  551. ralphm MattJ: I think so, *but* members have in earlier meetings expressed that this is not desirable
  552. nyco Guus if that's possible, then it's cool
  553. jonas’ ralphm, why?
  554. ralphm If only because they will have a deciding voice.
  555. Guus MattJ I'm not sure if that's relevant, if there's little distinction between a board member and ED.
  556. ralphm (in case of a stalled vote)
  557. jonas’ ah, I see
  558. nyco (guys, I'll have to leave no later than 16:00)
  559. andy has left
  560. ralphm And in the absence of a 'face', I think that role falls to the Chair. But I don't think we should make the Chair our ED.
  561. nyco Executive Chair
  562. ralphm So as long as the membership doesn't object, I'd say we leave this position vacant for now.
  563. jonas’ (not to be confused with an execution chair)
  564. ralphm (haha)
  565. jonas’ ralphm, maybe explicitly ask the membership on members@
  566. jonas’ not everyone will read the minutes that closely
  567. Guus jonas 🙂
  568. APach has joined
  569. ralphm jonas’: well, people should, that's the least they can do as members
  570. nyco vacant ED: +1
  571. jonas’ heh
  572. Guus let's vote on this next week, to give members time to pitch in.
  573. ralphm Ok
  574. ralphm The second topic was sponsorship.
  575. MattJ The ED has roles and responsibilities in the Bylaws, so who do these fall to?
  576. ralphm (and financials in general)
  577. MattJ Ok, we can discuss on list for the sake of time here
  578. nyco the Board ?
  579. ralphm MattJ: the Board
  580. MattJ ralphm, and per your answer to my previous question, what would happen in the case of a stalled vote?
  581. ralphm Our current financials are still pretty decent. However, no money is coming in lately
  582. jonas’ MattJ, ask the membership?
  583. ralphm right
  584. Ge0rG still has a rather complex request on the Board agenda, and it's already over a month old.
  585. ralphm Also our list of sponsors I think would currently only include USSHC
  586. ralphm Ge0rG: dude, wait
  587. Guus "dude, wait longer"
  588. ralphm So we need to clean that up *and* ask previous sponsors if they'd like to sponsor again.
  589. Guus ralphm: I suggest that we don't try to hard with previous sponsers, but define a list of potentials instead.
  590. ralphm We also made a bit of a list of potential new sponsors. Basically entities that use XMPP as part of their business. E.g. certain gaming companies.
  591. Nekit has left
  592. Nekit has joined
  593. Tobias has joined
  594. nyco we have to just propose, not be salesy
  595. ralphm So if people reading this (or the minutes) have ideas and contacts, please let me know.
  596. Guus We do need to think about what we can offer
  597. nyco all app makers on the App Stores, who use XMPP in the core of the products
  598. jonas’ .oO(Conversations!)
  599. Guus how we can engage sponsors, but importantly, keep them engaged.
  600. ralphm The third topic was the Jabber Trademark
  601. nyco Guus let's start with what we have always done, and iterate next year thanks to 2019 feedback
  602. APach has left
  603. ralphm This has always been handled by Peter in his capacity as ED.
  604. nyco sorry, I'm out, see you, I'll read
  605. Guus Thanks nyco
  606. nyco thx all
  607. MattJ Thanks nyco
  608. ralphm He's still the most knowledgable and has had contact with Cisco Legal
  609. ralphm But decisions lie with the Board
  610. ralphm Peter has provided feedback on one current application.
  611. ralphm But I've not seen a reply on this from the applicant, yet.
  612. nyco has left
  613. Ge0rG ralphm: there was not much *actionable* advice. It was more opinions in my reading
  614. ralphm I would suggest taking his opinion seriously.
  615. Guus there's two bits of implied advice, which we can turn into direct questions
  616. Guus 1) is the name JabberSPAM appropriate: "The usage guidelines [0] mention that a sublicensed name should not be "derogatory or demeaning to Jabber technology or the Jabber Community" and should not be "misleading or likely to cause confusion". The JabberSPAM name comes close to violating these criteria, in my opinion."
  617. Guus (quoting Peter there)
  618. ralphm And there's also a question in there on who'll be the licensee, so sending in a response would help the Board to see how to continue.
  619. Guus I understand the tongue-in-cheek reference here, but I also understand Peter's point.
  620. jonas’ shall I put this under a fresh agendum, like "5. JabberSPAM trademark application"?
  621. ralphm jonas’: sure
  622. jonas’ because this seems only be partially related to the chat with Peter
  623. Ge0rG Guus: so now I need to either rename my project or press Board into deciding whether it violates the decency criteria?
  624. Guus Ge0rG a third option would perhaps be to find middle ground, and make out the license to the full name (SPAM in your entity's name is an abbrevation, right?)
  625. Ge0rG I'm agreeing with becoming the licensee, as opposed to a non existing legal entity.
  626. ralphm And having to rename your project was always a possible outcome.
  627. Half-ShotX has left
  628. Ge0rG Guus: yes, it stands for "Spam Prevention and Abuse Management".
  629. Ge0rG We already have a SCAM team in the XSF, so it's a bit ironic to not allow that
  630. ralphm SCAM is not in anyway affiliated with the Jabber trademark so that's not relevant.
  631. jonas’ it’s obvious that there are different rules at play for a trademark owned by Cisco and a work team in the XSF...
  632. ralphm right
  633. Half-ShotX has joined
  634. Ge0rG I'd really love to hear the official Board opinion on that.
  635. Guus I believe that "Jabber Spam Prevention and Abuse Management" has way less chance to trip the 'derogatory or demeaning' clause than "SPAM"
  636. ralphm The point is that if we don't adhere to the guidelines, Cisco might decide to take matters in their own hands. I don't think that's a desirable outcome.
  637. Guus exaclty that is my concern, ralphm
  638. Guus Ge0rG opinion on what, exactly?
  639. Ge0rG Guus: on whether JabberSPAM is an appropriate name or not
  640. Guus Ge0rG if read out of context, 'derogatory or demeaning' applies to the term "JabberSPAM"
  641. ralphm Ge0rG: I'd suggest you then write a reply to the e-mail Peter sent and then we can pick it up from there. I think it would be good to have a single e-mail with, for example, you explaining what the full name of the project is and answer the question about the licensee.
  642. ralphm We can then pick it up next week.
  643. Ge0rG ralphm: alright, I can do that.
  644. ralphm Ge0rG: cool!
  645. Half-ShotX has left
  646. Ge0rG +1Ws
  647. Guus The second advice of Peter was to approach this as a person, not organization
  648. Guus as that'll most likely prevent a requirement to pay a fee.
  649. ralphm 6. Typos in Deferred
  650. ralphm I think we're still waiting for a PR on this.
  651. Guus who's going to create the PR?
  652. Guus jonas’ ?
  653. Guus (we'll wait for a long time if we're all waiting on eachoter)
  654. jonas’ .
  655. Ge0rG Guus: "most likely" is rather vague as well.
  656. Guus (we'll wait for a long time if we're all waiting on eachother)
  657. ralphm Guus wrote on the card: In today's board meeting, Board agrees wiath Jonas' suggested change, and ask the Editor to draft a proposal for the change in XEP-0001.
  658. ralphm So I guess we're waiting for jonas’
  659. jonas’ I forgot about that, sorry
  660. Guus As did I.
  661. ralphm 7. Last Calls on Experimental XEPS
  662. ralphm I think this coincides with the current discussion on standards@ ?
  663. ralphm MattJ filed this card
  664. jonas’ ralphm, not current
  665. jonas’ it was a few days ago actually
  666. ralphm jonas’: I wrote four e-mails in a thread on Deferred XEPs
  667. jonas’ that’s not the origin though
  668. Guus ralphm, this seems to be different
  669. ralphm I'm preparing a PR on the ability to move Deferred XEPs to Proposed.
  670. jonas’ that’s not the issue
  671. ralphm Ok
  672. ralphm But it is connected
  673. jonas’ the question from Matt was that there is no clear instruction for an Author how to get their XEP into LC
  674. MattJ The card description should be self-explanatory, but it boils down to "The expected process for a XEP to move from Experimental to Proposed is not explicitly documented"
  675. jjrh has left
  676. jonas’ from Experimental
  677. ralphm In the sense that we don't have a way currently to mark XEPs as undeferred after 12 months without a change.
  678. jonas’ we do, the Editor can just do that
  679. jonas’ but that’s not the problem
  680. ralphm The expected process for moving from Experimental to Proposed has two whole sections in XEP-0001
  681. jonas’ ralphm, I think that might be the issue ;-)
  682. MattJ It doesn't say how the process is initiated
  683. Guus is this about the council not always acting fast enough for the 12-month limit to expire on XEPs that are perfectly fine to go through?
  684. jonas’ Guus, no, this is about an author who has no idea how to get their XEP into LC
  685. MattJ It's about the two lengthy paragraphs not actually saying how the process gets triggered
  686. Guus So, how _is_ the process triggered?
  687. MattJ It mostly isn't :)
  688. Guus (and can we copy/paste that answer into 0001?)
  689. jonas’ Guus, currently it is "figure out that you need ask council, ask council"
  690. MattJ which I believe is one (not the only) reason we have many XEPs deferred that shouldn't really be
  691. jonas’ (or council figures it out by itself, but that’s rather rare I guess)
  692. ralphm Hah
  693. Half-ShotX has joined
  694. ralphm Ok, I can include this in my PR
  695. jonas’ <3
  696. MattJ ralphm, that would be great!
  697. ralphm But it would be indeed: Ask Council
  698. Guus Thank you 🙂
  699. MattJ I think we're all agreed on that
  700. ralphm good
  701. Guus 8 minutes until I need to go.
  702. ralphm 8. Ask for Editors
  703. ralphm Please, more of them.
  704. ralphm jonas’: if you want to send out an e-mail to members@, please do.
  705. jonas’ ok
  706. ralphm 9. AOB
  707. Guus I was going to ask if nyco has had feedback from the designer friend he had, regarding compliance suite badges.
  708. Guus if you read this in the minutes, nyco... 🙂
  709. ralphm Ok
  710. ralphm With that
  711. ralphm 10. Date of Next
  712. ralphm +1W
  713. ralphm Hopefully only 30 min
  714. ralphm 11. Close
  715. ralphm Thanks all!
  716. ralphm bangs gavel
  717. Seve Thank you very much guys!
  718. Guus Thanks!
  719. jonas’ minutes will follow in a minute
  720. MattJ Thanks :)
  721. Guus Ge0rG I'm aware that I'm not speaking in absolutes, but that's because I'm not familiar enough with the matter to be that absolute. If you can agree / see reason in the advice / suggestions that were given, I'm hoping that you can consider modifying the application, so that we limit the chance that things get delayed further, or worse, rejected.
  722. jonas’ FWIW, I prefer it if board plays it safe
  723. jonas’ in my own interest as sublicense holder ;-)
  724. Guus And on the SCAM name - even while it's not related to the trademark, I wouldn't have picked that name if I had known about the trademark-related limitation.
  725. Guus (if I indeed was the one that picked it - probably, but don't remember)
  726. Half-ShotX has left
  727. Half-ShotX has joined
  728. Guus If you prefer to continue with "JabberSPAM", I do suggest to file under the full name: "Jabber Spam Prevention and Abuse Management" instead. With what I know today, that'd be acceptable to me.
  729. Guus If a trademark professional at Cisco sees that we've sublicenced to 'JabberSPAM', then I think there's a real risk in them revoking our permit to issue licences. If that name comes to a vote, that's likely the reason why I'd be -1.
  730. Ge0rG Guus: yeah, I can fully understand that
  731. Guus I'm trying to think with you here, not make your life difficult
  732. Guus (as so far the quality of your life is influenced by a trademark issue 😉 )
  733. Ge0rG Guus: but if I apply for "Jabber Spam Protection and Abuse Management" and then abbreviate it as "JabberSPAM" in URLs, is that still covered? Probably not?
  734. Half-ShotX has left
  735. Ge0rG Guus: I'll raise that question in my email, so no need to answer it immediately
  736. Guus Ask Peter to be sure, but I think it is - and/or falls under the fair use policy.
  737. jonas’ if all else fails, we can still go back to xmppbl.org
  738. Ge0rG jonas’: that reads like the sound I'd emit after eating too much SPAM. Way too much spam.
  739. Guus if you do it that way, then you're putting "jabberSPAM" in context of "protection and abuse management"
  740. jonas’ "xmppblorg" :D
  741. Zash :D
  742. Guus as a side note: I'd be happy for people that search for 'spam' to end up at a prevention site, instead of something that'll actually help them generate spam.
  743. Ge0rG Guus: but my vagueness remark was about the person vs. org licensee statement.
  744. Ge0rG yeah, if you search github for "jabber spam" you'll end up a at spam bot implementation.
  745. Guus Ge0rG ask Peter
  746. Ge0rG Guus: will do
  747. Guus ok, I need to be off
  748. Guus or at least, do other stuff
  749. Guus I'm doing my best to help you move along here, even though it doesn't always look like it. 🙂
  750. Ge0rG Guus: thanks very much!
  751. Guus yw
  752. Half-ShotX has joined
  753. Half-ShotX has left
  754. Ann has joined
  755. Half-ShotX has joined
  756. Half-ShotX has left
  757. Ann has left
  758. Ann has joined
  759. rion has joined
  760. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  761. Half-ShotX has joined
  762. Ann has left
  763. Half-ShotX has left
  764. andrey.g has left
  765. andrey.g has joined
  766. Half-ShotX has joined
  767. oli has joined
  768. Half-ShotX has left
  769. efrit has joined
  770. Half-ShotX has joined
  771. efrit has left
  772. Maranda has left
  773. ralphm has joined
  774. Half-ShotX has left
  775. Half-ShotX has joined
  776. Half-ShotX has left
  777. Zash has left
  778. Half-ShotX has joined
  779. valo has left
  780. Guus has left
  781. l has left
  782. lskdjf has joined
  783. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  784. Half-ShotX has left
  785. Half-ShotX has joined
  786. jonas’ somebody wants to review if my implementation of Section 8.1 of the XSF Bylaws is correct? https://github.com/horazont/councilbot/blob/feature/remodel/councilbot/state.py#L253
  787. labdsf has left
  788. Half-ShotX has left
  789. ThibG has joined
  790. ThibG has joined
  791. vanitasvitae has left
  792. Half-ShotX has joined
  793. mightyBroccoli has left
  794. jonas’ I am particularly curious about the "majority of members voting" rule
  795. Half-ShotX has left
  796. vanitasvitae has joined
  797. ta has joined
  798. valo has joined
  799. mightyBroccoli has joined
  800. Maranda has joined
  801. Half-ShotX has joined
  802. daniel has joined
  803. Maranda has joined
  804. Zash has left
  805. alexis has left
  806. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  807. Half-ShotX has left
  808. Half-ShotX has joined
  809. oli has left
  810. valo has left
  811. Half-ShotX has left
  812. Half-ShotX has joined
  813. tux has joined
  814. ta has left
  815. Half-ShotX has left
  816. Half-ShotX has joined
  817. tux has joined
  818. !xsf_Martin has left
  819. !xsf_Martin has joined
  820. !xsf_Martin has left
  821. Half-ShotX has left
  822. Half-ShotX has joined
  823. sezuan has left
  824. oli has left
  825. Half-ShotX has left
  826. Half-ShotX has joined
  827. alacer has left
  828. alacer has joined
  829. lumi has left
  830. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  831. marc_ has joined
  832. jjrh has left
  833. Half-ShotX has left
  834. Half-ShotX has joined
  835. alacer has left
  836. ThibG has joined
  837. ThibG has joined
  838. labdsf has joined
  839. Half-ShotX has left
  840. Half-ShotX has joined
  841. frainz has left
  842. labdsf has left
  843. frainz has joined
  844. labdsf has joined
  845. lumi has joined
  846. Half-ShotX has left
  847. Half-ShotX has joined
  848. marc_ has left
  849. Neustradamus has left
  850. Half-ShotX has left
  851. Half-ShotX has joined
  852. Half-ShotX has left
  853. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  854. Nekit has left
  855. Nekit has joined
  856. jjrh has left
  857. Ann has joined
  858. lskdjf has joined
  859. ThibG has left
  860. ThibG has joined
  861. Steve Kille has left
  862. Ann has left
  863. Ann has joined
  864. Half-ShotX has joined
  865. Steve Kille has left
  866. Neustradamus has left
  867. moparisthebest has joined
  868. Ann has left
  869. jjrh has left
  870. Steve Kille has joined
  871. igoose has left
  872. igoose has joined
  873. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  874. Half-ShotX has left
  875. Half-ShotX has joined
  876. Half-ShotX has left
  877. Half-ShotX has joined
  878. lumi has left
  879. labdsf has left
  880. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  881. lumi has joined
  882. labdsf has joined
  883. Half-ShotX has left
  884. Half-ShotX has joined
  885. oli has left
  886. Maranda has joined
  887. Maranda has joined
  888. Half-ShotX has left
  889. Half-ShotX has joined
  890. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  891. Half-ShotX has left
  892. Half-ShotX has joined
  893. matlag has joined
  894. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  895. daniel has joined
  896. daniel has joined
  897. Half-ShotX has left
  898. Half-ShotX has joined
  899. Half-ShotX has left
  900. Half-ShotX has joined
  901. Half-ShotX has left
  902. Half-ShotX has joined
  903. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  904. Half-ShotX has left
  905. Half-ShotX has joined
  906. rion has left
  907. lskdjf has left
  908. lskdjf has joined
  909. Zash has left
  910. Zash has left
  911. Half-ShotX has left
  912. Half-ShotX has joined
  913. rion has left
  914. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  915. Half-ShotX has left
  916. Half-ShotX has joined
  917. Guus in context of XEP-0359, does an outbound MUC message have a different stanza ID for each outbound copy? What if the original message had a origin ID?
  918. jonas’ Guus, re stanza-id: it should not, because the stanza-id is the ID in the archive
  919. Guus right, and there's just one archive for the MUC - not a per-participant archive... (how does that work with PMs?)
  920. jonas’ the PMs are in the user’s account archive
  921. jonas’ the MUC archive is only type="groupchat"
  922. Ge0rG If at all...
  923. jonas’ PMs are treated like normal chat, except that it’s weird
  924. marc_ has joined
  925. Guus so... before processing inbound stanzas in a MUC service, slap on the stanza-id element, and be done?
  926. Zash I think we've ignored interactionts between MAM and MUC PMs so far
  927. jonas’ Zash, Ge0rG surely hasn’t
  928. jonas’ Guus, kind of like that
  929. Ge0rG jonas’: I have, because Burn MAM!
  930. Ge0rG Also you can't attribute PMs from MAM because the MUC might have been semi-anon.
  931. Guus Ge0rG I like your way of thinking.
  932. Half-ShotX has left
  933. Half-ShotX has joined
  934. Ge0rG > In the case of non-anonymous rooms or if the recipient of the MUC archive has the right to access the sender real JID at the time of the query, the archive message will use extended message information in an <x/> element qualified by the 'http://jabber.org/protocol/muc#user' namespace and containing an <item/> child with a 'jid' attribute specifying the occupant's full JID, Will this element be present in PMs?
  935. jonas’ Ge0rG, given that PMs didn’t even have <x/> until very recently, I doubt it.
  936. jonas’ (and the account MAM can only archive what the account sees)
  937. Ge0rG > The archiving entity MUST strip any pre-existing <x> element from MUC messages (as MUC rooms are not required to do this). This is going to break PM archival on the user account, right?
  938. Ge0rG Somebody please invoke standards@
  939. Ge0rG &
  940. jonas’ I won’t go near that
  941. Half-ShotX has left
  942. Half-ShotX has joined
  943. oli has joined
  944. oli has joined
  945. rion has joined
  946. thorsten has joined
  947. remko has left
  948. krauq has joined
  949. Half-ShotX has left
  950. Half-ShotX has joined
  951. lnj has left
  952. goffi has joined
  953. lnj has left
  954. lorddavidiii has left
  955. Half-ShotX has left
  956. Half-ShotX has joined
  957. efrit has joined
  958. jjrh has left
  959. Half-ShotX has left
  960. Half-ShotX has joined
  961. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  962. sezuan has left
  963. marc_ has left
  964. genofire has left
  965. jjrh has left
  966. rion has left
  967. daniel has joined
  968. alexis has joined
  969. Half-ShotX has left
  970. Half-ShotX has joined
  971. Half-ShotX has left
  972. Half-ShotX has joined
  973. neshtaxmpp has left
  974. Half-ShotX has left
  975. Half-ShotX has joined
  976. jjrh has left
  977. moparisthebest has joined
  978. Half-ShotX has left
  979. Half-ShotX has joined
  980. ludo has joined
  981. ludo has left
  982. ThibG has joined
  983. ThibG has joined
  984. Zash has left
  985. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  986. ludo has left
  987. ludo has left
  988. Half-ShotX has left
  989. Half-ShotX has joined
  990. ludo has joined
  991. Tobias has joined
  992. mtavares has joined
  993. Half-ShotX has left
  994. Half-ShotX has joined
  995. mightyBroccoli has left
  996. ThibG has left
  997. ThibG has joined
  998. ludo has left
  999. mightyBroccoli has joined
  1000. jjrh has left
  1001. thorsten has left
  1002. thorsten has joined
  1003. Half-ShotX has left
  1004. Half-ShotX has joined
  1005. ludo has left
  1006. ludo has left
  1007. vaulor has joined
  1008. ralphm has left
  1009. Half-ShotX has left
  1010. Half-ShotX has joined
  1011. efrit has left
  1012. Tobias has joined
  1013. Half-ShotX has left
  1014. Half-ShotX has joined
  1015. lorddavidiii has left
  1016. Half-ShotX has left
  1017. Half-ShotX has joined
  1018. jjrh has left
  1019. Half-ShotX has left
  1020. Half-ShotX has joined
  1021. jjrh has left
  1022. jjrh has left
  1023. MattJ has joined
  1024. Half-ShotX has left
  1025. Half-ShotX has joined
  1026. alexis has left
  1027. alexis has joined
  1028. thorsten has left
  1029. oli has left
  1030. oli has joined
  1031. Half-ShotX has left
  1032. Half-ShotX has joined
  1033. alexis has left
  1034. alexis has joined
  1035. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  1036. thorsten has joined
  1037. moparisthebest has joined
  1038. Half-ShotX has left
  1039. Half-ShotX has joined