jonas’rion, I am aware of the email you are referring to; I have to think about it.
jonas’thanks for reminding me
jonas’rion, this has been requested several times, but I haven’t found a good way to implement it yet. Also, this needs a good way for the components to let the server know that their caps have changed. I have wire format for that in the pipeline, but I’m not really happy with it yet.
jonas’also, this is mostly server-side stuff then which I’m not at all familiar with
goffihas joined
wurstsalathas joined
waqashas left
Nekithas left
Nekithas joined
andyhas joined
ZashIs there a way for anything to say "my caps changed"?
jonas’for clients, yes
jonas’they re-send presence
jonas’for anything else, not
andyhas left
andyhas joined
Zashfor _anything_
jonas’Zash, you’re a server dev. what would you prefer? send an IQ to all your open outbound streams? a nonza to all your open outbound streams? have a pubsub node on the server JID itself to which interested peers can subscribe?
jonas’(the latter is then like the first option, except that you need to keep track about who is interested)
ZashWhat's the ultimate goal?
thorstenhas left
thorstenhas joined
edhelasZash which metadata ?
lhas joined
jonas’Zash,
1. provide clients with caps of JIDs related to their server (e.g. a MUC component) during connection startup (e.g. via a stream feature or something)
2. provide servers with means of learning their peers caps and keep them up-to-date (this was requested), and possibly broadcast changes of remote caps to interested local clients
Zashedhelas: It's a dataform, you can make something up. I'd suggest something with an URI value. Then stick an pubsub URI/L or whatever there.
edhelasZash this will require changes on the XMPP server, no ?
Zashjonas’: for 1) it's probably fine for the server to disco#info external components as they connect and stick a caps-hash in the stream features next to its own (needs some origin indicator)
jonas’Zash, what do external components do when they change their caps for whatever reason?
Zashjonas’: atm? nothing.
jonas’no, what are they supposed to do when that happens?
jonas’for example, change to an http upload component’s maximum file size
Zashjonas’: I guess that's what we need to figure out.
jonas’exactly :)
ZashSo yeah, I guess we want the new caps hash pushed to whoever's interested, probably in some container, most likeley some way to enable it.
ZashI do wonder if we need to ditch the current component protocol, since it's without stream features
ZashDoes it need to be global or local to the stream?
sezuanhas left
jonas’"it"?
Zashjonas’: "caps push" or whatever
jonas’what does "global" mean then?
404.cityhas joined
jonas’in the end, it should be able to propagate across domain boundaries I guess
Zashjonas’: do you(r client) want to be subscribed to eg all the MUCs you ever heard of?
jonas’probably not
Zashor, hm, your server maybe
jonas’but those one is joined in might be interested✎
jonas’but those one is joined in might be interesting ✏
Zashjonas’: "global" as in something that uses stanzas, as opposed to a nonza-thing
jonas’I was thinking of using <message/> actually because messages with unknown payloads cause the least trouble
Zashheadlines even
jonas’yeah... for s2s (and component<->server) that might be good enough
jonas’and when done cleverly it can be implemented with a pubsub component. although that gives me flashbacks of Push
Zashif it's something clients opt-in to then the payload container shouldn't matter
moparisthebesthas left
moparisthebesthas joined
Zashmaybe some science is in order, like, what disco#info queries do clients send and to what
lnjhas left
Seve@board I may be on mobile today unfortunately
Wish it worked ^
tuxhas left
andyhas left
labdsfhas joined
Ge0rG> send an IQ to all your open outbound streams?
What would be wrong with a roster-push style IQ for changed caps?
jonas’Ge0rG, client2s or s2s or component2s?
Zasheveryone2everyone!!
jonas’wfm
Ge0rGjonas’: s2s and component2s
Ge0rGbut yeah, having to disconnect and reconnect in the client is sucky. Also some clients will cache server caps in RAM to not play that dance every single time
jonas’on connecting, one could send the caps in stream features for s2s, too
Ge0rGjonas’: this doesn't even start to address the caps-change problem
andyhas joined
Guushas left
jonas’Ge0rG, that’s true, but I don’t get your comment about reconnect
Ge0rGjonas’: the solution to update the client-side server-caps hash is to reconnect
Ge0rGjonas’: except when it's not
rionhas left
jonas’ah, I see
Ge0rGI don't think I made it more clear now.
jonas’enough to nudge my parser out of the local minimum and find a more sensible interpretation of this exchange
Steve Killehas left
Marandahas joined
Steve Killehas joined
lnjhas joined
labdsfhas joined
remkohas joined
Nekithas left
Nekithas joined
olihas joined
lnjhas left
Ge0rGWhy is everybody so unimpressed by the 0280 LC?
ZashAgain?
Ge0rGZash: yeah. Apparently last year's council never completed the LC
Ge0rGBut as the XEP hasn't changed in years, it still sucks and all my arguments from 2016 still are true.
lnjhas joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
Ge0rGquick poll: should I make XEP-0410 "Informational" instead of "Standards" before Proposing?
ZashIs this legal?
jonas’Ge0rG, I think switching tracks is a rather undefined thing to do
404.cityhas left
Ge0rGOhnoez. So now I need to ask Council for a decision on that, which will hand it over to Board for some serious XEP-0001 yak shaving.
Kev410 is Standards.
Ge0rGPhew.
KevWait, I thought there was going to me a disco feature in there, did I dream that?
ZashKev: Do you have a good explanation of why?
Ge0rGThe only wire protocol it adds is the disco#info tag
jonas’that’s probably enough
Ge0rGPhew²
KevZash: Because it introduces a new disco feature.
KevOr I thought it did, but it doesn't seem to.
Ge0rGKev: https://op-co.de/tmp/xep-0410.html
jonas’I tend to agree with Kev; it essentially defines a behaviour for IQ ping on MUCs, with feature discovery.
jonas’that’s not just Informational IMO
KevGe0rG: Ah.
jonas’Kev, it’s on the TODO, but Ge0rG didn’t want to make changes during LC
Ge0rGKev: PR is https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/739 - I'm just preparing it for Council submission
Ge0rGKev: and one of the LC notes was "Informational" or "Standards"
Ge0rGjonas’: now that the LC is formally over, I can ask you any time to merge the PR, right? (I'm not doing it yet, though)
jonas’I have to read up in '1 on that
jonas’the LC isn’t formally over until Council has voted, is it?
Ge0rGjonas’: until Council has voted about what exactly?
jonas’Advance vs. Reject
Ge0rGjonas’: and it will vote that on the XEP version submitted for LC? Regardless of two weeks worth of LC feedback?
Ge0rGOr will it Reject and I need to get you to apply the PR and then to re-LC?
efrithas joined
jonas’sorry, I don’t have '1 in front of me
Ge0rGnm.
Ge0rGI've just sent a mail to standards@, and I'll kindly ask Dave to put the PR+XEP for a vote next week.
rionhas left
olihas joined
rtq3has joined
thorstenhas left
thorstenhas joined
edhelasso I'd like your point of view on the experiment that I made to add avatar support in Pubsub, basically the idea is to publish 0084 items directly into the Pubsub node as items, this doesn't requires any changes server side, configuring the notifications without payload is adviced
edhelasthe only case it's meh is when a getitems is done on the node, then the base64 of the avatar is delivered
edhelason other cases, it's the same system as 0084
jonas’edhelas, ugly
edhelasyou have a notification headline of the urn:xmpp:avatar:metadata item, you request the content, check the id and request the rest
jonas’defeats the entire design of '84 with the separate nodes to handle the issue with the large payload
jonas’will not work properly with node item count limits
jonas’mixes data and metadata in the same "stream"
edhelasok :)
rionhas joined
edhelasjonas’ what is the issue of mixing different kind of content in the same stream ? we have namespace for that
edhelason my side it's the only solution that I found that doesn't requires big changes server side
edhelasand I'll not wait for MIX to have such basic features available
rtq3has left
rtq3has joined
Zashyou could have a node with items for all other nodes
Zashyou could have an URI/URL in node metadata
edhelasthis requires to set rights on the other node to publish content and restrict them
edhelasonly the publishers can publish the avatar
edhelasand url/uri is possible yes, still in the mood of 0084 afaik
Nekithas left
Nekithas joined
Nekithas left
Nekithas joined
jonas’edhelas, as you mentioned yourself: "the only case it's meh is when a getitems is done on the node, then the base64 of the avatar is delivered"
jonas’item counts will be off, too
jonas’you have to do additional filtering, interactions with RSM and so on
edhelason my implementation, displaying only 9 items and not 10 on one page is "ok"
edhelasbut indeed it's not perfect
edhelasbut RSM with chat message correction can also gives you 28 messages for 30 requested in the end
Nekithas left
Nekithas joined
lnjhas left
j.rhas joined
rtq3has left
lumihas joined
efrithas left
pep."Seve> @board" < I'm happy it doesn't. That's not something that should be in <body/>
Sevepep., I don't disagree, but give the feature
Seve:D
KevIt should be in body, and then there should be a reference to annotate it.
frainzhas left
pep.The "@" is metadata, and is not required in body
ZashYou can use it as UI, but then not send it. Like Converse.js
pep.yep
pep.Although converse still fails in some cases, but that's the spirit
frainzhas joined
lskdjfhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
edhelasZash I'll try out the URL in metadata thing and not publish the base64
edhelasno, example 4 in https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0084.html#process-pubmeta
pep.Why http?
edhelaswhere do you want to publish it ?
edhelason another pubsub service ? which one ? the same as where the node is ?
edhelaswe don't have any kind of filtering feature when ding disco#items on pubsub service, that's also why I moved comments nodes
edhelasit is possible but having simple HTTP URL is also fine, this node will only be about pulling data
edhelas(in my case Movim can even host it)
pep.So we use http "because my client does it anyway" and it's a really ugly hack just because nobody is pushing for "the right thing"(tm)?
edhelas0084 allows it, also base64 handling through xml is having limits
edhelasi don't have control over the upload process of the picture for example
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
lskdjfhas left
lskdjfhas joined
404.cityhas joined
Half-ShotXhas joined
APachhas left
APachhas joined
ThibGhas left
ThibGhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
igoosehas left
igoosehas joined
lskdjfhas left
Half-ShotXhas left
lskdjfhas left
moparisthebesthas joined
mightyBroccolihas joined
Half-ShotXhas joined
lnjhas joined
olihas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
lnjhas left
APachhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
jonas’if I could take one day off to attend the summit remotely, which should I take? 31st or 1st?
KevHard to say. I think often the first day discussions are more intense than the second as we prioritise the stuff more people consider important/interesting.
jonas’hard trade-off
jonas’thursday is burger day at work. I’d be missing good burgers.
Holger>30 participants on the list. Not bad.
Half-ShotXhas left
SeveLooks very promising this year
Half-ShotXhas joined
frainzhas joined
Ge0rGAnd I have no way to get out of this project. I hope for a calm week so I can at least listen in
GuusNyco has a different nickname? (or maybe it renders differently, with this update I had for my client). As we're not verified by MUC membership, anyone could pop in here now under the name 'Mattj' and vote in his name, right?
Nÿcosorry, got a backup client, my default one had the bookmark removed, will investigate
ralphmGuus means: start implementing MIX.
GuusDoesn't matter Nyco - Just wondering out loud
ralphmIn any case, it uses the same real JID, so we're good.
waqashas joined
ralphmNo takers (haha!)?
ralphm2. Commitments
ralphmCall for Editors. jonas’ ?
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
GuusI've seen the call, but no responses, iirc
ralphmShall I remove the item?
GuusI'm not sure what more that we can do, other than keep doing calls
ralphmAnd since we're not actually doing them, I'm removing the item.
ralphm* Clarify how initiate last call for Exp. XEPs
Guusthat was in your PR, right?
ralphmI put in a Pull Request for this, along with how to actually propose.
ralphmhttps://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/744
ralphmIt would be nice to get reviews on this.
GuusI've read and remember agreeing with it - I'll go over it once more after the meeting and +1 on the PR
Guusdo we need an in-meeting vote on this?
ralphmI put it up for review
ralphmDon't know what MattJ's handle is
Ge0rGon github it's @mwild1
Guusmwild1
ralphmHe doesn't show up as an option, so I'll look into that.
ralphmIt might also be nice to get opinions from the floor
Guusand council/editors, specifically. They work with this stuff
ralphmRight
ralphm* Update Board status on members page
ralphmThis sounds like an 'Alex' item.
Ge0rGralphm: might be useful to bring the PR up for Council then. I kind of missed it
Kev(I've just had a scan of that PR and have issue with it, FWIW, in places)
ralphmGe0rG: the point is that Board is the Approving Body.
ralphmKev: great, all feedback is welcome
KevBoard is the approving body, but I think it'd be irresponsible to make significant changes to the standards process without consulting the body responsible for the standards :)
KevI don't think there's a rush for this, so I suggest getting it put on Council's agenda too.
Guushttps://xmpp.org/about/xsf/members <-- has board members?
ralphmKev: I'm happy for it to be on the Council's agenda.
KevTa.
flowhas joined
ralphmGuus: right, I'll archive it
GuusI'm unsure if I read the meaning of "Update Board status on members page" right.
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
APachhas left
SeveI thought we were talking about the update I did not that long ago
ralphmKev: for what it is worth, I had already mentioned this PR on the standards list a week ago.
Kevralphm: I think it's worth flagging things explicitly on the Council agenda.
ralphmKev: that was the goal already and why we are discussing it. The Council's Chair is invited to Board meetings explicitly for these things.
ralphm(and also on the Board mailing list)
ralphmAnyway, I trust it will be discussed in the next Council meeting now. Meanwhile comments are also welcome on the PR. Moving on.
ralphm3. GSoC
ralphmflow: updates?
flowhas left
waqashas left
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
Guusthere's been an announcement, blogpost, wiki page, and revival of the GSoC that's since silent.
APachhas joined
ralphmright
Guushttps://wiki.xmpp.org/web/GSoC/2019
Guusno proposals as of yet, it seems
ralphmThe wiki page still has the default templates indeed
ralphmI sent out a reminder regarding the removal of vending machines at FOSDEM.
Guusthe hotel signup thingy has expired, so if you're still looking for a place, you'll have to make your own arrangements. You can probably still use Thon EU if you want.
ralphmSo far only 16 responses for Dinner. Another reminder to please fill in the form. No response, no food!
GuusI'm happy with the turnup at the summit. It's more than last year.
Kev17
Guuspeople should write down suggestions for agenda items on the wiki
Guuswho's this "Allergies: everything but filet mignon" <--??
ralphm31 registered people for Summit
ralphmKev of course
KevIt was suggested to me, but I didn't.
Half-ShotXhas joined
Guusmoving on?
GuusI can't stay to long, today
Guusdid we loose ralphm ?
ralphmno
Guusyey
ralphm5. JabberSpam trademark application
ralphmJabberSPAM actually
GuusGe0rG's response to Peter, did that get a response?
Ge0rGGuus: not from Peter, AFAICT
ralphmNo
ralphmThe project v.s. organization thing is a bit of a thing.
ralphmI can see how having another organization with Jabber in its name might complicate the trademark situation.
ralphmAnd hence why Peter said that might not be a good idea.
Ge0rGis "that might not be a good idea" equivalent to the board denying the request?
Ge0rGI'm a bit lost here about how to go on.
Guusthere's precedent for having an org with 'jabber' in it's name, trademarked: https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/jabber-trademark/approved-applications.html
Ge0rGI wonder if they paid the 500$ fee.
Ge0rGI actually heard once that the fee was never imposed.
GuusI can only assume it was, but don't know.
Guusas on how to go on: I'd like to get Peters feedback, as he's most knowledgable on this
ralphmWell, as Ge0rG said, it might not fit the description of project either. I am struggling with this myself, and have started reading all the documentation linked from https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/jabber-trademark/background.html
Ge0rGfrom a process point of view, it would be great to have this process terminate eventually with an official board response.
GuusI've read that - there's nothing conclusive in there that I could find.
Guusbest I could reason is that George is putting forward two projects, sharing (part of) a name.
Guus(the manifesto and the blacklist)
Ge0rGGuus: this is a question similar to "does a github organization count as an organization in terms of the trademark licensing agreement"
GuusGe0rG you're right.
ralphmhttps://xmpp.org/about/xsf/jabber-trademark/license-decision-process.html lists the options
APachhas left
GuusAs long as there's no legal representation of the github org ...
vanitasvitaehas left
efrithas joined
Guusa github organization is not a legal entity, I think.
ralphmIt also says that the XSF Trademark Committee makes this decision.
Ge0rGthe XSF Trademark Committee is Board + Peter?
ralphmIt is comprised of: “a XSF Director and XSF Members who have been authorized by the XSF Board of Directors to manage the trademark licensing program”
ralphmThe former we don't have
Ge0rGAnd the latter we don't have either
ralphmand the latter we may not have explicitly appointed
Guusso it's up to board to pick up the slack there.
ralphmI think so to.
ralphmtoo
Guuslet's not complicate things furhter.
Ge0rGIf I volunteer to the XSF Trademark Committee, will I be put into a position to decide upon my own request?
ralphmI tend to have opinions other than Guus and mine.
ralphm(on anything in this meeting, really)
ralphmwant to have, I meant
Guusyou have other opinions that you? 🙂
Guusah 😃
ralphmFWIW, I tend to approve, if we get the details correct.
SeveCould that be changed for just Board for example? So we do not have to go though that process
Ge0rGI would assume that the XSF Trademark Committee implicitly is the XSF Board.
APachhas joined
ralphmSeve: I suppose Board could appoint Board to be on the Committee.
frainzhas joined
GuusSeve, I don't think we have to go to that process to begin with.
equilhas joined
ralphmBut I think Board is clearly authorized if it votes on the matter.
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
Ge0rGI am fully OK with the Board voting on trademark applications.
Ge0rGAlso deciding on whether to ask for one of the fees.
Half-ShotXhas left
Ge0rG(personally, I'd love to change the process to not demand any fees from non-commercial entities)
ralphmI'm not considering any changes to the process before understanding how it is currently supposed to work.
GuusGe0rG working on the assumption that Peter does not bring up new issues, you change the name on the trademark application to the non-abbreviated name (as you already suggested), and we're licensing to two projects, instead of an organization, I tend to be OK with issuing the trademark. Let's ping Peter, and find out more.
Ge0rGGuus: I'm not sure whether my mail counts as "pinging Peter"
GuusI'll ask Peter for an update
Ge0rGGuus: also one of the open questions was whether the long-name trademark will allow me to use the shortname in URLs
ralphmRight
ralphmThanks Guus
Ge0rGand that question is kind of blocking for me
ralphmI understand.
Ge0rGbecause if the answer is "no", the whole application stops making much sense.
GuusI assume it is OK, but would like Peter's feedback on that.
ralphmLet's try and get more answers for/during next week at the Summit.
ralphm6. Executive Director (bis)
Ge0rGthanks!
Half-ShotXhas joined
ralphmI know we have discussed this at length already, but I've been reading our bylaws, and I'm not too comfortable about the vacancy for this officer.
Guuswhat are your concerns?
ralphmThe point is that the bylaws (and e.g. the trademark policy) explicitly mention this role.
ralphmAnd it is unclear how things should work in the absence of an ED.
Ge0rGfrom the floor, I'd assume that All Of Board needs to make any decisions then.
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
ralphmRight, but I wonder if that should be made explicit. Unfortunately, we didn't really get much feedback on our previous meeting on this topic, either.
ralphmThe minutes now state: “As of now, Board is executing their decisions themselves. The consensus seems
to be that this mode of operation is fine for now, and there is no extreme
pressure to find a replacement.”
ralphmI think that is aligned with Ge0rG's comment.
GuusI'm not to worried about not filling the position, and not change the bylaws either.
ralphmOk
Guusif a problem does occur, we'll have to resort to appointing another ED.
Guuswhich will then be problematic, probably.
Guusbut in effect, the ED has been absent for years.
Guusand/or done nothing in that role
SeveWhat problems could be encounter because of that?
Half-ShotXhas left
Guusit's way past time for me
ralphmI cannot currently think of one. So maybe we should leave at this for now.
ralphm7. AOB
SeveOk, no problem.
GuusI'd like to vote on the ED thing asap
Guusit's been dragging
GuusAOB: nyco, did you get in touch with that designer friend for the badges?
Ge0rGGuus: what exactly would you like to vote on?
GuusGe0rG to keep the position, but vacant.
Ge0rGAh, yeah. The badges. Would be great to have them.
ralphmGuus: I'll put the vote on for next meeting.
Guusnyco ?
ralphmGe0rG: Postponing that item.
moparisthebesthas left
ralphm8. Date of Next
Half-ShotXhas joined
Guuslets do +2w
ralphmNext week is the Summit. We may meet in person, but I'm not scheduling a meeting.
ralphmSuggesting +2W
Ge0rG(also better for Minutes and following in here)
ralphmGe0rG: any formal meeting would also be in here
SeveUnfortunately I will not attend Summit nor Fosdem this year, so I'm okay with what you suggest
Ge0rG> Stream closed by us: Improper 'from' attribute (invalid-from)
That had to hurt.
waqashas joined
ZashIs that even legal (assuming the server did it in response to the clients 'from')✎
ZashIs that even legal (assuming the server did it in response to the clients 'from')? ✏
waqashas left
Yagizahas left
Yagizahas joined
Half-ShotXhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
lhas joined
flowhas joined
ThibGhas left
ThibGhas joined
rtq3has left
mtavareshas joined
Half-ShotXhas joined
flowhas left
flowhas joined
rtq3has joined
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
lumihas left
ralphmhas joined
efrithas left
rtq3has left
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
jjrhhas left
Half-ShotXhas left
frainzhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
Marandahas joined
Marandahas joined
404.cityhas left
jjrhhas left
lumihas joined
jjrhhas left
jjrhhas left
jjrhhas left
APachhas left
Half-ShotXhas left
efrithas joined
Marandahas joined
Marandahas joined
Guushas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
efrithas left
thorstenhas left
APachhas joined
alexdehas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
Zashhas left
tahas joined
Half-ShotXhas joined
labdsfhas left
labdsfhas joined
ThibGhas joined
ThibGhas joined
Marandahas left
neshtaxmpphas left
neshtaxmpphas joined
ralphmhas left
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
APachhas left
Guushas joined
Tobiashas joined
Guushas joined
Half-ShotXhas joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
labdsfhas left
marc_has joined
Half-ShotXhas left
alexdehas left
neshtaxmppmoparisthebest: hi...
ThibGhas joined
ThibGhas joined
moparisthebesthi
Half-ShotXhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
frainzhas left
rtq3has joined
frainzhas joined
Guushas left
Guushas joined
Half-ShotXhas joined
neshtaxmpphas left
APachhas joined
neshtaxmpphas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
thorstenhas left
APachhas left
rtq3has left
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
APachhas joined
lskdjfhas joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
marc_has left
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
lskdjfhas left
Half-ShotXhas left
Zashhas left
Zashhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
Half-ShotXhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
Link MauveAndrew Nenakhov, it seems Xabber asks for the vCard-temp of the contacts on their full JID, and twice in a few ms, when the contact connects.
