XSF Discussion - 2019-01-28

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  125. jonas’ my boss ACKed me taking a day off on 31st
  126. jonas’ so I can at least attend remotely :)
  127. Guus Awesome!
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  150. Ge0rG jonas’: I've added a footnote to "Any other error" - does that make sense? I'm not happy with the rendering though, maybe should move it into braces? https://op-co.de/tmp/xep-0410.html#performingselfping
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  161. jonas’ Ge0rG, no, I don’t think that should be a footnote.
  162. jonas’ That should be normative language, with a MUST, for the services which implement the disco#info feature.
  163. jonas’ That should be normative language, with a MUST, for the services which implement/advertise the disco#info feature.
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  172. flow what jonas’ said
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  176. jonas’ (the footnote is good for clients having to deal with non-implementing servers)
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  186. Ge0rG > Therefore, a MUC service supporting this protocol may directly respond to a participant's Ping request I suppose I need to change that as well, then?
  187. Ge0rG into a SHOULD?
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  190. flow I see no need to change that as well, reads good as it is. Maybe I am missing something. It also appears that a SHOULD would contradict the "service MUST reply with xxx if not joined"
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  193. jonas’ Ge0rG, into a MUST
  194. jonas’ if it advertises the feature, replying is a MUST
  195. jonas’ that’s the idea
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  199. Ge0rG jonas’, flow: https://op-co.de/tmp/xep-0410.html#serveroptimization
  200. flow wait there are still cases where the MUC service does not respond directly to a ping, but instead does route it, right? If so, then you can say that a "service MUST respond to a participants ping". Or doex xep410 mandate that participants ping are always handled by the service?
  201. flow Ge0rG, a html diff would be great
  202. Ge0rG flow: 0410 is only for participant self-ping
  203. Ge0rG flow: I don't know how to create a html diff. I wish we had tooling for that
  204. jonas’ Ge0rG, hm, what about the case when a ping races with a nickname change?
  205. jonas’ that would yield (<item-not-found/> (sometimes?) if the nickname isn’t in use again && the client is joined) || (a full round-trip if it is && the client is joined)
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  208. Ge0rG jonas’: do you want me to add <item-not-found/> to the list?
  209. jonas’ I’m not sure
  210. jonas’ I may want a different IQ if the server explicitly supports this.
  211. jonas’ something to the bare MUC JID
  212. jonas’ so that we don’t have to deal with nickname races
  213. Ge0rG flow: the changed text is: > A service implementing this optimization needs to advertise the self-ping-optimization feature in the Service Discovery (XEP-0030) [5] response on the individual MUC room JIDs, and it MUST respond to a self-ping request as follows: > - Successful IQ response: the client is joined to the MUC. > - Error (<not-acceptable>): the client is not joined to the MUC.
  214. jonas’ (in addition to handling the self-ping IQ efficiently)
  215. jonas’ Ge0rG, adding <item-not-found/> as an informative thing for client developers in that list is a good thing IMO
  216. Ge0rG jonas’: you know, I've been thinking about that and dropped it because you can't fix all MUC services out there.
  217. Ge0rG jonas’: the informative thing for client developers is in §3.2
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  223. jonas’ right
  224. jonas’ Ge0rG, we won’t get all MUC sevrices fixed, but that’s why there is a separate feature.
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  228. jonas’ I’d imagine a good client to behave like this: - MUC advertises feature: use specialised IQ - MUC does not advertise feature: use self-ping with kludgy response parsing
  229. jonas’ I mediocre client would: - MUC advertises feature: use self-ping and less kludgy response parsing - MUC does not advertise feature: use self-ping with kludgy response parsing
  230. jonas’ A bad client would: use self-ping
  231. jonas’ A very bad client would: not notice outages at all
  232. Ge0rG jonas’: so you want to at least double the complexity for the benefit of making server-side nickname changes, which are widely considered as broken anyway, more robust when racing with a self-ping?
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  243. flow Ge0rG, how about adding a xep410 error condition to the "client is not joined" error response?
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  245. Ge0rG flow: what would that serve?
  246. flow in case a broken client responds with <not-acceptable/>
  247. flow http://paste.debian.net/1062860/
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  250. flow Makes life easier (e.g. reading stanza traces) and does not hurt
  251. flow didn't we want to add a disco feature for xep410?
  252. Ge0rG flow: we have one
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  255. flow I see one for the self-ping-optimization
  256. Ge0rG yes.
  257. flow But not for "this service implements xep410"
  258. Ge0rG that's the one. What else do you want to have a feature for? Client-side?
  259. Ge0rG the self-ping-optimization is the only xep410 thing that can be implemented service-side
  260. flow couldn't you implement "sending <not-acceptable/> on not joined" without the self-ping optmization?
  261. Ge0rG flow: as with jonas’' suggestion, I don't want to make the logic even more complex (you'd have to check for the additional condition to be really sure)
  262. Ge0rG flow: most MUCs already do so.
  263. Ge0rG flow: except the ones that return other errors.
  264. flow If the answer is yes, then I would suggest adding another disco feature, if not, then that would mean that the self-ping optimization is a mandatory part of xep410 and I would suggest changing the disco feature value
  265. Ge0rG to what?
  266. Ge0rG initially, 0410 didn't even need a disco feature for the optimization.
  267. flow https://xmpp.org/extensions/msp/0
  268. flow just an example
  269. Ge0rG flow: if the MUC implements self-ping-optimization, you know you won't receive a self-ping resonse from a client anyway.
  270. Ge0rG even less so from a broken client
  271. flow the important part is that the feature value does not include "self-ping-optimzation" because it make it look like that this is a different optional aspect of xep410
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  274. Ge0rG msp standing for muc-self-ping?!
  275. flow I just saw that you already set the XEPs short name, +1 for that, in this case I would change the xmlns value to https://xmpp.org/extensions/muc-selfping/0
  276. Ge0rG flow: what's your ultimate goal?
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  279. Ge0rG `http://jabber.org/protocol/muc#self-ping-optimization` was supposed to be in line with the other MUC features
  280. flow world peace
  281. Ge0rG flow: world peace is not a goal of XEP-0410
  282. flow How about http://jabber.org/protocol/muc#self-ping
  283. Ge0rG flow: why?
  284. flow I mean, that is the name of the XEP, it's not "XEP-0410: MUC Self-Ping Optimization"
  285. Ge0rG Yes. Because the XEP is about more than just the optimization.
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  287. Ge0rG But the optimization is what a server can implement. And advertise
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  290. flow But the MUC service could also implement just "send <not-acceptable/> if not joined", without the optimization, right?
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  293. Ge0rG flow: yes. That would be XEP-0045 then.
  294. flow Ge0rG, doex xep45 define that not-acceptable must be send in this case?
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  297. Ge0rG Oh. Ugh. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#disco-occupant
  298. Ge0rG jonas’: ^
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  338. jonas’ Ge0rG, > of making server-side nickname changes or MSN nickname changes
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  340. jonas’ flow, wtf, why https://xmpp.org
  341. jonas’ we have urn:xmpp for that purpose
  342. jonas’ aside from that, I agree with Ge0rG
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  346. jonas’ I agree with Ge0rG, though, so this is just tangential
  347. flow jonas’, I see some appeal in xmlns being an URL which ideally would point to the latest revision of the XEP for that particular namespace
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  349. jonas’ flow, not going to happen.
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  351. flow jonas’, I am not so sure about that
  352. jonas’ flow, we aren’t even able to make redirects from accepted inbox ProtoXEPs to their accepted versions, or maintain the attic reliably
  353. jonas’ or our registries
  354. flow that doesn't mean that it has to be that way forever
  355. ralphm flow: this was what we had before, and it was decided we went with URNs instead
  356. jonas’ not ot mention that https vs. http is an ambiguity I do not want to even theoretically have in namespaces when we can avoid it
  357. flow ralphm, so it is textified/codified somewhere that XEPs have to use urn:xmpp?
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  361. Ge0rG jonas’: what do you think about bad-request?
  362. Ge0rG ...as the default response for a non-participant, that is
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  364. jonas’ Ge0rG, works for me
  365. jonas’ I don’t have a strong opinion on the specific type
  366. jonas’ and the precedent for disco#info is convincing
  367. jonas’ consistency is nice
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  369. ralphm flow: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0053.html
  370. Ge0rG jonas’: consistency with a specification that is widely ignored?
  371. ralphm (which is referenced from XEP-0001)
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  374. flow ralphm, ta
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  376. ralphm no problem, sir
  377. ralphm One can't know all the things, but people that have been around longer just tend to know a bit more of the ancient bits.
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  415. flow Certainly, although I am pretty sure I have read xep53 before, but unfortunately that piece of information did not stick
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  422. ralphm You mean the entire section comprising half of the document?
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  567. flow not exactly, more like the whole document
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