XSF Discussion - 2019-01-29

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  105. moparisthebest xmpp is suddenly looking alot better than facetime to some apple users now I bet :D
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  117. edhelas moparisthebest how so ?
  118. edhelas https://9to5mac.com/2019/01/28/facetime-bug-hear-audio/
  119. edhelas ah :p
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  126. jonas’ awesome
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  144. edhelas took 10 days to turn the Facetime switch of
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  147. edhelas > Weirder yet: if the recipient presses the volume down button or the power button to try to silence or dismiss the call, their camera turns on as well. Though the recipient’s phone display continues showing the incoming call screen, their microphone/camera are streaming.
  148. jonas’ amazing
  149. edhelas they got some pretty weird bahavior going on in their app to have that
  150. jonas’ indeed
  151. Guus (doesn't facetime use XMPP?)
  152. edhelas Guus in a way, everything in IM/VoiP is based on XMPP with a bit or a lot of adaptations :p
  153. Guus Yes, we can declare victory.
  154. jonas’ VICTORY
  155. jonas’ hm
  156. Guus Also, 2019 is going to be the year of the linux desktop.
  157. Ge0rG Guus: the twentieth consecutive one!
  158. Guus See? Winning! #tigerblood
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  161. Guus See? Winning! #tigerblood
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  171. Holger Is it known/expected that the links to Schemas in XEPs lead to a 404?
  172. Holger E.g. 0313 sends me to <http://www.xmpp.org/schemas/archive-management.xsd>.
  173. jonas’ Holger, known
  174. Holger k
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  186. mtavares Ge0rG, I've been using linux a my desktop since 1996 (almost exclusive, just a drop into win or macos every now and then), so it's more like 23th consecutive one.
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  196. goffi Hey, is there any reason why MAM is not activated on this room?
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  200. Ge0rG missing mod_mac_mum?
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  203. Maranda Mac Mum 🎑✨
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  206. Ge0rG Maranda: or was it mod_mum_mac?
  207. Maranda Not sure
  208. Ge0rG I remember it being related to a low-income overweight burger-eating family.
  209. Maranda Ge0rG, mum mac apparently
  210. Ge0rG maybe it was also a MILFy cam_mum.
  211. Ge0rG This only reinforces my wish to write a blog post: "Prosody Community Modules: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly"
  212. jonas’ .oO(gstreamer-plugins-{good,bad,ugly})
  213. Ge0rG jonas’: indeed.
  214. Maranda 🤔 I guess the query should be directed to Zash for a more proper naming convention on that
  215. Maranda Naming convention discussion rather
  216. Ge0rG Maranda: the problem is that depending on prosody version, there are modules in core or not.
  217. Ge0rG and the core modules implement a feature set that is overlapping but neither a subset nor a superset of the community module
  218. Ge0rG I think I need to draw plenty of Venn diagrams.
  219. Maranda Not sure I include all modules.... Not having contributed ones
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  221. Maranda And since my MUC MAM relies on mod_muc_log guess what... It's called mod_muc_log_mam 🙃🤭
  222. Ge0rG Just shuffle the letters.
  223. Ge0rG Maranda: do you know the Kennifyer?
  224. Maranda Like wise the http logs are called mod_muc_log_http
  225. Maranda Nay
  226. Ge0rG Maranda: https://www.namesuppressed.com/kenny/
  227. Maranda s/are/is/
  228. Ge0rG mod_ppmfmfmmfppmmmmppm
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  231. Maranda Hehe
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  312. Guus So, I did something silly and slapped on xep-0359 to any stanza that passed. Doesn't work to well for IQ's, which can have only one direct child.
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  314. Ge0rG oops
  315. Guus what's the best approach here? Only Messages?
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  317. Ge0rG not doing it at all in this manner?
  318. Guus Ge0rG elaborate, please
  319. Ge0rG I'm not sure it is a good idea to slap 0359 on *all* messages that you pass. You should only do that for messages that end up in your MAM archive
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  321. Guus what makes you wonder if it's a good idea?
  322. dwd Ge0rG, I think you *have* to place a stanza-id on anything you archive, with mam:2. Whether you *also* place them on other messages is not specified.
  323. dwd Ge0rG, But a client might ask for "all messages after this one", so if you can't service that from MAM because you're unaware of the stanza-id referenced, that could be a problem.
  324. Ge0rG dwd: that's exactly what I was thinking. CC Guus
  325. dwd Also, there's a nagging concern that if you're a little over-zealous in archiving messages, you can archive the MAM result stanzas, and a query for "every message after this point" can lead you into some interestingly endless interactions.
  326. Zash No
  327. Zash Those would be contained inside forwarded-containers, right?
  328. Ge0rG Zash: it's not *forbidden* to archive those.
  329. Ge0rG I'm not sure whether it was mentioned before, but it would be nice to have consistent rules for MAM and Carbons and ephemeral vs. persistent messages.
  330. Zash Yes
  331. Zash Something for the summit perhaps?
  332. Ge0rG For the 2018 Summit.
  333. Zash You know all these issues stand still while there isn't an ongoing summit :)
  334. Ge0rG I'd like to have Summit discuss the mess of message IDs, and which ones to use when when referencing messages.
  335. Ge0rG Zash: because nobody reads the ML?
  336. Zash Nobody reads anything, ever :)
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  338. Guus an awesome tagline for a chat client.
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  342. dwd Ge0rG, Might it be worth looking at XEP-0226 again and seeing if it makes sense to stipulate ephemerality in terms of message profiles?
  343. Ge0rG dwd: interesting idea, but I fear it will lead into an endless list of exceptions and exceptions-from-exceptions
  344. Ge0rG dwd: essentially you'd end up codifying the existing rules with a different name
  345. dwd Ge0rG, Well, the existing rules are "apply common sense".
  346. Ge0rG dwd: that doesn't work
  347. Ge0rG It's a good way to delegate the hard work from people who should know it to random server developers.
  348. dwd Ge0rG, I think we can approach this by saying "these elements are metadata - ignore them for the purposes of MAM/Carbons/etc", and "these elements mean it's worth doing something with".
  349. dwd Ge0rG, In general, server developers are not random. Certainly not cryptogrphically so.
  350. Ge0rG dwd: ah, so you are into tagging stanza elements and using those as signal/noise indicators?
  351. Guus I'd not consider myself to be a cryptographically strong random, but more random like https://xkcd.com/221/
  352. dwd Ge0rG, I'm into exploring the idea, certainly. That's the approach of XEP-0226 - to use the elements as contents (and, in this case, ban certain combinations).
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  354. dwd Ge0rG, Also, same, but in my case with a loaded dice.
  355. Ge0rG dwd: what you propose sounds like a formal notion (with explicitly named elements) of https://op-co.de/tmp/xep-0280.html#which-messages
  356. Ge0rG dwd: while I was more interested in changing the semantics of either message type, to-JID-fullness or both, to encode the ephemerality. Hence IM-NG
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  359. dwd I think that's a waste of effort. It's a boil-the-ocean forklift upgrade.
  360. dwd I mean, those are great fun, but they've repeatedly failed.
  361. Ge0rG dwd: I'm not convinced it actually is.
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  363. Ge0rG dwd: my ideas are 90% compliant with 6121 rules
  364. Ge0rG But yeah, I have ambitious goals.
  365. Ge0rG I need to restrain myself. Can we please get Summit to at least figure out which of the (only?) three message identifiers are to be used when?
  366. dwd Ambition is laudable, but we need a touch of pragmatism too.
  367. Zash Hints?
  368. dwd Ge0rG, Three? Origin, Stanza-id, and id attribute?
  369. Ge0rG dwd: yes
  370. dwd Zash, Council shot down hints. I didn't agree, and still find it very useful.
  371. Ge0rG IIRC, Council's problem was that the XEP format is not suitable for Hints.
  372. Ge0rG Maybe there should be a Registry of Hints instead?
  373. dwd Ge0rG, Yes indeed. I think if origin isn't the same as the id attribute something has borkened, and stanza-id is for ids applied by intermediates (and used when querying those intermediates).
  374. dwd Ge0rG, I thought there were multiple arguments against hints, like servers might ignore them and things.
  375. Ge0rG dwd: but which one do you use in 0184 ACKs? Which one in 0333? Which one in proto-XEP-emoji-Reactions?
  376. Ge0rG dwd: yeah, those too
  377. dwd Ge0rG, The first two are specified as the stanza's id attribute, aren't they?
  378. Ge0rG dwd: that doesn't mean it's right, just that they predate 0359.
  379. Ge0rG @id is optional and scoped on the c2s stream, so there are no uniqueness guarantees. origin-id can be forged by a malicious client, and stanza-id isn't available until the message was reflected to you, which is "never" in the default case.
  380. dwd Ge0rG, Let me rephrase - I think origin-id is an unfortunate workaround for broken behaviour, some of which I even contributed to.
  381. Ge0rG dwd: okay okay. I'm writing up the long version to standards@
  382. dwd Ge0rG, Rather than ossify it, I'd rather treat it as the workaround it is, and work to remove the requirement for its existence.
  383. Ge0rG dwd: there is a principal problem with attager-generated-IDs scoped to a MUC (as opposed to a direct chat)
  384. Ge0rG dwd: there is a principal problem with attacker-generated-IDs scoped to a MUC (as opposed to a direct chat)
  385. dwd Ge0rG, Does origin-id help with that at all?
  386. Ge0rG dwd: no
  387. Ge0rG it merely adds to the confusion
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  390. dwd Ge0rG, Right. Of course, if MUCs *don't* preserve ids, then the reflection would ... Oh.
  391. Ge0rG dwd: oh?
  392. dwd Ge0rG, That is, the attack is only even vaguely possible because an attacker has control of the id. If the MUC re-issues a new id, then it's largely moot.
  393. Ge0rG dwd: yes, you have replaced a reference authentication problem with a race condition problem.
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  461. flow Is there a canonical XMPP logo somewhere?
  462. Zash Yes
  463. jonas’ flow, any of xmpp*.png in https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/tree/master/content/images/logos ?
  464. Half-ShotX has joined
  465. Zash No .svg?
  466. jonas’ somewhere
  467. jonas’ haven’t found it yet
  468. Zash `$ locate xmpp.svg`
  469. jonas’ flow, https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/363 Guus probably knows where the SVG version is
  470. flow jonas’, thanks, png is fine
  471. jonas’ ah, got it
  472. jonas’ https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/blob/master/xmpp.org-theme/static/images/xmpp-logo.svg
  473. Zash I found ~/src/xmpp/images/xmpp.svg
  474. Half-ShotX has left
  475. Zash https://cerdale.zash.se/upload/-uwGf0VaQc-n_Gnr/xmpp.svg
  476. ralphm That's the old one
  477. ralphm The new one, as linked by jonas’ has the little orange thingy crossover moved to under
  478. Zash This was out of a very old repo, I think from before it was split into multiple
  479. Zash 2015, not /that/ old
  480. ralphm Yes, this was changed more recently
  481. ralphm in sept 2017
  482. ralphm Interestingly, Guus apparently removed the old version with the XMPP letters included
  483. Guus use the logo on the top-left corner of the website
  484. Guus that links to https://xmpp.org/theme/images/xmpp-logo.svg
  485. ralphm Guus: that's without the XMPP letters, hence my comment
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  487. Guus ah, sorry, _without_
  488. Guus I'm scrambling today, not paying enough attention
  489. ralphm No worries
  490. ralphm I have a proper one, hold on
  491. Guus Unsure where that logo with letters is.
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  493. Guus If you need to find the font: it's the same font as was used for HAL in 2001: Space Odyssey
  494. Zash I just noticed that the middle lines aren't completely smooth, they have sharp edges near the bottom. Now I can't un-see it :(
  495. Guus I always forget the font name, but not that reference. 😉
  496. ralphm The font is called OPTIEdgar Bold Extended
  497. ralphm https://upload.ik.nu/upload/vEqZhG9m0siQiaH6/xmpp.svg
  498. ralphm Zash: ^
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  500. Zash Nice
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  503. ralphm https://upload.ik.nu/upload/jbbkx8yLJnk6ZNbi/VfKA42JTTua6Abrw9GG8iQ.jpg
  504. Guus CHEAT! CHEAT!
  505. Guus (I would've done the same 😛 )
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  508. Guus maybe I'll cover myself in stickers... 😉
  509. Ge0rG I wish I had a Jabber® hoodie.
  510. ralphm Ge0rG: I'm sure you like these, too.
  511. Guus Thank you for using a reference, Ge0rG
  512. Guus 🙂
  513. Guus speaking of which - did Peter get back to you?
  514. Ge0rG Guus: not yet
  515. Ge0rG > Will reply tonight or tomorrow! -- Thu, 24 Jan 2019
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  518. Ge0rG Guus: should I ping him?
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  521. Ge0rG dwd: I'd like to conclude the 0410 LC with a Council vote, but there was an intersting issue brought up and not yet resolved: should there be an _additional_ error condition that says something like "you are not a participant to this MUC"?
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  524. jonas’ Ge0rG, I think we need to have a second round of LC after you updated the XEP
  525. Guus Ge0rG I just pinged Peter
  526. Guus wraaaagghhh why can't I type on three keyboards at the same time.
  527. Ge0rG Guus: thanks very much
  528. Ge0rG jonas’: but why?
  529. jonas’ ah, no
  530. jonas’ it is indeed a council vote which is the next step
  531. jonas’ you do updates, council votes whether to decide on it now or have another LC
  532. jonas’ XEP-0001, §7 > Once the consensus of the Standards SIG has been incorporated into the XEP and all issues of substance raised during the Last Call have been addressed by the XEP author, the XMPP Extensions Editor shall formally propose a specific revision of the XEP to the Approving Body for its vote. If necessary, the XMPP Extensions Editor may, at his discretion and in consultation with the Approving Body, extend the Last Call or issue a new Last Call if the XEP requires further discussion.
  533. Ge0rG jonas’: so the options are now: - merge the PR and let the Council vote on Proposal - try to gain more feedback and resolve open questions
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  535. jonas’ maybe
  536. jonas’ I’m too full of cold slime to figure that out at the moment
  537. Ge0rG my gut feeling is that there are two issues worth delaying the Proposal: the additional error condition; and the correct baseline IQ response for a non-participant
  538. jonas’ yes
  539. jonas’ I suggest that you make an update to the PR which incorporates what you’d like them to be and we can discuss that tomorrow and decide whether we find it okay enough or put it into another LC?
  540. dwd Ge0rG, "occupant", but yeah.
  541. dwd needs to do the agenda in a bit, and will try to remember to put it on.
  542. Ge0rG Participant: An occupant who does not have admin status
  543. Ge0rG Ew.
  544. dwd I thought a particpant had voice, as well.
  545. Ge0rG dwd: I don't feel ready for Proposing yet.
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  548. jonas’ the key question is, do you have a ring yet?
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  551. Ge0rG jonas’: a jingle ring or a token ring?
  552. jonas’ a facetime ring, maybe
  553. Ge0rG one ring to spy upon them
  554. jonas’ :>
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  561. Ge0rG > The <error/> element: > - MUST contain a defined condition element. > - MAY contain a <text/> child element ... > - MAY contain a child element for an application-specific error condition Is it allowed to have multiple application-specific error conditions? Multiple defined condition elements?
  562. jonas’ <xs:element name='error'> <xs:complexType> <xs:sequence xmlns:err='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-stanzas'> <xs:group ref='err:stanzaErrorGroup'/> <xs:element ref='err:text' minOccurs='0'/> </xs:sequence> <xs:attribute name='by' type='xs:string' use='optional'/> <xs:attribute name='type' use='required'> <xs:simpleType> <xs:restriction base='xs:NMTOKEN'> <xs:enumeration value='auth'/> <xs:enumeration value='cancel'/> <xs:enumeration value='continue'/> <xs:enumeration value='modify'/> <xs:enumeration value='wait'/> </xs:restriction> </xs:simpleType> </xs:attribute> </xs:complexType> </xs:element>
  563. jonas’ can someone parse that?
  564. Ge0rG jonas’: `<xs:group ref='err:stanzaErrorGroup'/>` is probably the relevant part
  565. jonas’ that’s just an enumeration of the different error types
  566. jonas’ the defined error types that is
  567. jonas’ a single xs:choice thing with all the elements in it
  568. jonas’ doesn’t specify/handle application defined conditions
  569. Zash so it needs an optional any?
  570. Zash Or is that implicitly allowed?
  571. jonas’ I don’t know
  572. Ge0rG I fear I just trolled the standards@ ML, a little.
  573. Ge0rG Time to walk myself out.
  574. jonas’ good luck
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  586. Ge0rG Okay, so it looks like I identified the cause of massive MUC message duplication in yaxim.
  587. Ge0rG Anybody wants to guess?
  588. jonas’ SQL index something?
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  590. Ge0rG jonas’: it's my favorite MUC protocol feature.
  591. Ge0rG yrtnpl tebhcpung cebgbpby
  592. jonas’ oh dear
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  595. Ge0rG It looks like MultiUserChat.isJoined() is not updated on connection re-auth.
  596. Ge0rG &
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  810. edhelas https://blog.freedombone.net/dark-messenger
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  846. moparisthebest What would be the right way to officially suggest that all clients/servers omit TLS authentication for any .onion domain?
  847. moparisthebest A XEP or?
  848. MattJ A XEP, informational I guess
  849. MattJ "Best Practices for using XMPP with Tor"
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