> Weirder yet: if the recipient presses the volume down button or the power button to try to silence or dismiss the call, their camera turns on as well. Though the recipient’s phone display continues showing the incoming call screen, their microphone/camera are streaming.
jonas’
amazing
edhelas
they got some pretty weird bahavior going on in their app to have that
jonas’
indeed
Guus
(doesn't facetime use XMPP?)
edhelas
Guus in a way, everything in IM/VoiP is based on XMPP with a bit or a lot of adaptations :p
Guus
Yes, we can declare victory.
jonas’
VICTORY
jonas’
hm
Guus
Also, 2019 is going to be the year of the linux desktop.
Ge0rG
Guus: the twentieth consecutive one!
Guus
See? Winning! #tigerblood
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Guus
See? Winning! #tigerblood
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Holger
Is it known/expected that the links to Schemas in XEPs lead to a 404?
Holger
E.g. 0313 sends me to <http://www.xmpp.org/schemas/archive-management.xsd>.
jonas’
Holger, known
Holger
k
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mtavares
Ge0rG, I've been using linux a my desktop since 1996 (almost exclusive, just a drop into win or macos every now and then), so it's more like 23th consecutive one.
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goffi
Hey, is there any reason why MAM is not activated on this room?
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Ge0rG
missing mod_mac_mum?
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Maranda
Mac Mum 🎑✨
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Ge0rG
Maranda: or was it mod_mum_mac?
Maranda
Not sure
Ge0rG
I remember it being related to a low-income overweight burger-eating family.
Maranda
Ge0rG, mum mac apparently
Ge0rG
maybe it was also a MILFy cam_mum.
Ge0rG
This only reinforces my wish to write a blog post: "Prosody Community Modules: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly"
jonas’
.oO(gstreamer-plugins-{good,bad,ugly})
Ge0rG
jonas’: indeed.
Maranda
🤔 I guess the query should be directed to Zash for a more proper naming convention on that
Maranda
Naming convention discussion rather
Ge0rG
Maranda: the problem is that depending on prosody version, there are modules in core or not.
Ge0rG
and the core modules implement a feature set that is overlapping but neither a subset nor a superset of the community module
Ge0rG
I think I need to draw plenty of Venn diagrams.
Maranda
Not sure I include all modules.... Not having contributed ones
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Maranda
And since my MUC MAM relies on mod_muc_log guess what... It's called mod_muc_log_mam 🙃🤭
Ge0rG
Just shuffle the letters.
Ge0rG
Maranda: do you know the Kennifyer?
Maranda
Like wise the http logs are called mod_muc_log_http
Maranda
Nay
Ge0rG
Maranda: https://www.namesuppressed.com/kenny/
Maranda
s/are/is/
Ge0rG
mod_ppmfmfmmfppmmmmppm
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Hehe
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Guus
So, I did something silly and slapped on xep-0359 to any stanza that passed. Doesn't work to well for IQ's, which can have only one direct child.
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Ge0rG
oops
Guus
what's the best approach here? Only Messages?
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Ge0rG
not doing it at all in this manner?
Guus
Ge0rG elaborate, please
Ge0rG
I'm not sure it is a good idea to slap 0359 on *all* messages that you pass. You should only do that for messages that end up in your MAM archive
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Guus
what makes you wonder if it's a good idea?
dwd
Ge0rG, I think you *have* to place a stanza-id on anything you archive, with mam:2. Whether you *also* place them on other messages is not specified.
dwd
Ge0rG, But a client might ask for "all messages after this one", so if you can't service that from MAM because you're unaware of the stanza-id referenced, that could be a problem.
Ge0rG
dwd: that's exactly what I was thinking. CC Guus
dwd
Also, there's a nagging concern that if you're a little over-zealous in archiving messages, you can archive the MAM result stanzas, and a query for "every message after this point" can lead you into some interestingly endless interactions.
Zash
No
Zash
Those would be contained inside forwarded-containers, right?
Ge0rG
Zash: it's not *forbidden* to archive those.
Ge0rG
I'm not sure whether it was mentioned before, but it would be nice to have consistent rules for MAM and Carbons and ephemeral vs. persistent messages.
Zash
Yes
Zash
Something for the summit perhaps?
Ge0rG
For the 2018 Summit.
Zash
You know all these issues stand still while there isn't an ongoing summit :)
Ge0rG
I'd like to have Summit discuss the mess of message IDs, and which ones to use when when referencing messages.
Ge0rG
Zash: because nobody reads the ML?
Zash
Nobody reads anything, ever :)
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Guus
an awesome tagline for a chat client.
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dwd
Ge0rG, Might it be worth looking at XEP-0226 again and seeing if it makes sense to stipulate ephemerality in terms of message profiles?
Ge0rG
dwd: interesting idea, but I fear it will lead into an endless list of exceptions and exceptions-from-exceptions
Ge0rG
dwd: essentially you'd end up codifying the existing rules with a different name
dwd
Ge0rG, Well, the existing rules are "apply common sense".
Ge0rG
dwd: that doesn't work
Ge0rG
It's a good way to delegate the hard work from people who should know it to random server developers.
dwd
Ge0rG, I think we can approach this by saying "these elements are metadata - ignore them for the purposes of MAM/Carbons/etc", and "these elements mean it's worth doing something with".
dwd
Ge0rG, In general, server developers are not random. Certainly not cryptogrphically so.
Ge0rG
dwd: ah, so you are into tagging stanza elements and using those as signal/noise indicators?
Guus
I'd not consider myself to be a cryptographically strong random, but more random like https://xkcd.com/221/
dwd
Ge0rG, I'm into exploring the idea, certainly. That's the approach of XEP-0226 - to use the elements as contents (and, in this case, ban certain combinations).
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dwd
Ge0rG, Also, same, but in my case with a loaded dice.
Ge0rG
dwd: what you propose sounds like a formal notion (with explicitly named elements) of https://op-co.de/tmp/xep-0280.html#which-messages
Ge0rG
dwd: while I was more interested in changing the semantics of either message type, to-JID-fullness or both, to encode the ephemerality. Hence IM-NG
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dwd
I think that's a waste of effort. It's a boil-the-ocean forklift upgrade.
dwd
I mean, those are great fun, but they've repeatedly failed.
Ge0rG
dwd: I'm not convinced it actually is.
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Ge0rG
dwd: my ideas are 90% compliant with 6121 rules
Ge0rG
But yeah, I have ambitious goals.
Ge0rG
I need to restrain myself. Can we please get Summit to at least figure out which of the (only?) three message identifiers are to be used when?
dwd
Ambition is laudable, but we need a touch of pragmatism too.
Zash
Hints?
dwd
Ge0rG, Three? Origin, Stanza-id, and id attribute?
Ge0rG
dwd: yes
dwd
Zash, Council shot down hints. I didn't agree, and still find it very useful.
Ge0rG
IIRC, Council's problem was that the XEP format is not suitable for Hints.
Ge0rG
Maybe there should be a Registry of Hints instead?
dwd
Ge0rG, Yes indeed. I think if origin isn't the same as the id attribute something has borkened, and stanza-id is for ids applied by intermediates (and used when querying those intermediates).
dwd
Ge0rG, I thought there were multiple arguments against hints, like servers might ignore them and things.
Ge0rG
dwd: but which one do you use in 0184 ACKs? Which one in 0333? Which one in proto-XEP-emoji-Reactions?
Ge0rG
dwd: yeah, those too
dwd
Ge0rG, The first two are specified as the stanza's id attribute, aren't they?
Ge0rG
dwd: that doesn't mean it's right, just that they predate 0359.
Ge0rG
@id is optional and scoped on the c2s stream, so there are no uniqueness guarantees. origin-id can be forged by a malicious client, and stanza-id isn't available until the message was reflected to you, which is "never" in the default case.
dwd
Ge0rG, Let me rephrase - I think origin-id is an unfortunate workaround for broken behaviour, some of which I even contributed to.
Ge0rG
dwd: okay okay. I'm writing up the long version to standards@
dwd
Ge0rG, Rather than ossify it, I'd rather treat it as the workaround it is, and work to remove the requirement for its existence.
Ge0rG
dwd: there is a principal problem with attager-generated-IDs scoped to a MUC (as opposed to a direct chat)✎
Ge0rG
dwd: there is a principal problem with attacker-generated-IDs scoped to a MUC (as opposed to a direct chat) ✏
dwd
Ge0rG, Does origin-id help with that at all?
Ge0rG
dwd: no
Ge0rG
it merely adds to the confusion
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dwd
Ge0rG, Right. Of course, if MUCs *don't* preserve ids, then the reflection would ... Oh.
Ge0rG
dwd: oh?
dwd
Ge0rG, That is, the attack is only even vaguely possible because an attacker has control of the id. If the MUC re-issues a new id, then it's largely moot.
Ge0rG
dwd: yes, you have replaced a reference authentication problem with a race condition problem.
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flow
Is there a canonical XMPP logo somewhere?
Zash
Yes
jonas’
flow, any of xmpp*.png in https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/tree/master/content/images/logos ?
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Zash
No .svg?
jonas’
somewhere
jonas’
haven’t found it yet
Zash
`$ locate xmpp.svg`
jonas’
flow, https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/363 Guus probably knows where the SVG version is
> Will reply tonight or tomorrow!
-- Thu, 24 Jan 2019
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Ge0rG
Guus: should I ping him?
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Ge0rG
dwd: I'd like to conclude the 0410 LC with a Council vote, but there was an intersting issue brought up and not yet resolved: should there be an _additional_ error condition that says something like "you are not a participant to this MUC"?
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jonas’
Ge0rG, I think we need to have a second round of LC after you updated the XEP
Guus
Ge0rG I just pinged Peter
Guus
wraaaagghhh why can't I type on three keyboards at the same time.
Ge0rG
Guus: thanks very much
Ge0rG
jonas’: but why?
jonas’
ah, no
jonas’
it is indeed a council vote which is the next step
jonas’
you do updates, council votes whether to decide on it now or have another LC
jonas’
XEP-0001, §7
> Once the consensus of the Standards SIG has been incorporated into the XEP and all issues of substance raised during the Last Call have been addressed by the XEP author, the XMPP Extensions Editor shall formally propose a specific revision of the XEP to the Approving Body for its vote. If necessary, the XMPP Extensions Editor may, at his discretion and in consultation with the Approving Body, extend the Last Call or issue a new Last Call if the XEP requires further discussion.
Ge0rG
jonas’: so the options are now:
- merge the PR and let the Council vote on Proposal
- try to gain more feedback and resolve open questions
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jonas’
maybe
jonas’
I’m too full of cold slime to figure that out at the moment
Ge0rG
my gut feeling is that there are two issues worth delaying the Proposal: the additional error condition; and the correct baseline IQ response for a non-participant
jonas’
yes
jonas’
I suggest that you make an update to the PR which incorporates what you’d like them to be and we can discuss that tomorrow and decide whether we find it okay enough or put it into another LC?
dwd
Ge0rG, "occupant", but yeah.
dwdneeds to do the agenda in a bit, and will try to remember to put it on.
Ge0rG
Participant: An occupant who does not have admin status
Ge0rG
Ew.
dwd
I thought a particpant had voice, as well.
Ge0rG
dwd: I don't feel ready for Proposing yet.
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jonas’
the key question is, do you have a ring yet?
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Ge0rG
jonas’: a jingle ring or a token ring?
jonas’
a facetime ring, maybe
Ge0rG
one ring to spy upon them
jonas’
:>
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Ge0rG
> The <error/> element:
> - MUST contain a defined condition element.
> - MAY contain a <text/> child element ...
> - MAY contain a child element for an application-specific error condition
Is it allowed to have multiple application-specific error conditions? Multiple defined condition elements?