XSF Discussion - 2019-01-31

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  145. grumpy

    Hi Ge0rG et al. I was talking with moparisthebest‎ in chat@dino.im?join about "XEP-0283: Moved". Since there doesn't seem to be a solution yet to the problem, how to migrate an account *after* the original server already shut down, I wrote a short proposal on that: hhttps://paste.dismail.de/?4c1fbdcfe545a21f#+Coc2+h/McMVvg4/qtzCeChc8QQ03yBQVOotnZTZrIc=

  146. jonas’

    haha I like the title

  147. grumpy

    Even if it might have some glitches and you maybe want to put it more XMLish as I did, I hope it helps and if its even only to put the discussion further. ;)

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  149. jonas’

    grumpy, hm, what’s the purpose of the server key?

  150. grumpy

    to sign, that I had an account on that server.

  151. jonas’

    ah, right, so that a client can’t claim a random account

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  153. grumpy


  154. jonas’

    this looks sound on the first glance

  155. jonas’

    it requires upgrades to all involved servers though

  156. jonas’

    and of course it’s a cryptoscheme so it needs hard thinking to ensure that it’s right

  157. grumpy


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  159. grumpy

    Maybe it could be even possible without the server key, if we use the trust from the already established subscription. But then the client somehow needs to publish it's public key beforehand.

  160. grumpy

    The main idea is that each server has the possibility of validation even after the origin server went off the wire.

  161. jonas’

    grumpy, the public key could be published for example in a PEP node

  162. jonas’

    I think this is along the lines of what pep. had thought of

  163. grumpy

    Sounds good. Then every subscriber needs to cache the keys for its subscriptions. And if they went off they can be reestablished. Should it be really that easy? That would be cool. :)

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  168. Ge0rG

    grumpy: that's an adorable idea, and it introduces a cryptographic overlay network on top of xmpp, which is very similar to, but not equal with OMEMO.

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  170. Ge0rG

    Also it requires support from all involved entities, and it depends on client identities

  171. pep.

    Ge0rG: depending on what guarantees you want I think you won't have much choice about the crypto

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  184. pep.

    One thing I'm annoyed at and I don't know what to do about is evil servers. Do we want to worry about that, what if that's the reason for a move in the first place.

  185. pep.

    I know the usual criticism about thinking they could even be such a thing as an evil server and I get it because I've got my own as well, but most users don't, and that's why the crypto hype.

  186. pep.

    Lots of assumptions break once you include that in the addition..

  187. jonas’

    pep., if the server is evil, what stops them from just not signing your tokens at all? or preventing you from sending your signed tokens to other parties?

  188. jonas’

    preventing you from publishing the key?

  189. pep.

    jonas’: yes, this proposal doesn't work at all if evil is in the game

  190. pep.

    Otherwise I think it's nice. There are still a few things to fix I think

  191. jonas’

    pep., I don’t think any proposal can work with a reasonably evil server, unless we go true peer-to-peer, which has its own mess; since you can’t trust your server, you’d need a separate directory service or whatever to find a way to connect to your peer, at which point we’re not doing XMPP anymore.

  192. pep.

    Depends what you want to call XMPP :)

  193. Ge0rG

    What about making Moved depend on a signed OMEMO message with the old JID in the meta data?

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  195. pep.

    Ge0rG: I assume sarcasm?

  196. Ge0rG

    pep.: no. AMIGO attempts to establish a new crypto identity on top of xmpp, which doesn't need to be intertwined with xmpp in any way. The *essential* piece of info is "look, you know this cryptographic key belongs to me (device or user), and I'm proving to you now that I'm still me with this new JID"

  197. pep.

    Yeah I get that, and I see the pattern

  198. pep.

    It's just funny coming from you now :p

  199. Ge0rG

    pep.: it would work the same with OX or any other mechanism where you established trust before server shutdown

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  201. pep.


  202. jonas’


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  204. pep.

    I was thinking about abstracting the crypto from this tbh

  205. Ge0rG

    It's counter productive to implement a new crypto scheme just for this

  206. pep.

    You can just plug in anything that'll prove your identity

  207. Ge0rG

    pep.: In that case all you need is a `<moved from=oldJID>` plus some hand waving about cryptographic signatures

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  210. Ge0rG

    pep.: so essentially just an implementation note on Moved

  211. jonas’

    mmm, <signature xmlns="moved"><signed xmlns=":eme:0" namespace="urn:xmpp:otr:0"/><signature-data>...</signature-data></signature>...

  212. jonas’

    mmm, <signature xmlns="moved"><signed xmlns="...:eme:0" namespace="urn:xmpp:otr:0"/><signature-data>...</signature-data></signature>...

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  215. Ge0rG

    As long as it doesn't end up just comparing OMEMO fingerprints, I'm okay with it being used.

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  219. Ge0rG

    Obviously, I'd love to have an E2EE scheme that only uses a single per account x25519 key, which can be simply synchronized between devices to give access to MAM, but people need to fap over PFS, deniability and other theoretical benefits while storing their clear logs of their comms into unencrypted SQLite...

  220. grumpy

    pep.: I suppose the main reason for moved is mostly bad maintained servers, not necessarily evil ones. Since to my experience onboarding and getting an account (especially where?) is (excluding Quicksy) still the biggest problem for the average users. It's very likely that they pick that one which goes offline tomorrow. :) Therefore I would like to see moved supporting migration *afterwards*.

  221. Ge0rG

    The most sophisticated part would be a phrase / QR based challenge response handshake to establish mutual trust between two devices (your own or your friend's), to exchange keys on the wire

  222. Ge0rG

    grumpy: you won't get the server parts of AMIGO implemented on unmaintained servers

  223. Ge0rG

    grumpy: the best thing you can do is to establish a cryptographic identity by sending messages from the old server while it's still up.

  224. Ge0rG

    grumpy: and if your friend's client supports AMIGO, it can just cache your fingerprint and accept a JID update from anyone asserting that same identity

  225. grumpy

    > jonas’‎: pep., if the server is evil, what stops them from just not signing your tokens at all? or preventing you from sending your signed tokens to other parties? With the workflow I proposed the user could even recognize that. If the server doesn't sign or gives a wrong signature, you could check against the servers public-key. All other interaction jsut depends on your client and the new server accepting that.

  226. grumpy

    ‎> Ge0rG‎: grumpy: you won't get the server parts of AMIGO implemented on unmaintained servers Thats good. Because that fact could be exposed to the user and the client could remind maybe *not* to choose a server *not* supporting moves. ;)

  227. Ge0rG

    grumpy: there is really no need to depend on anything from the old server except for sending messages or maybe PEP

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  229. grumpy

    Ya, PEP sounds like the right way to do so.

  230. Ge0rG

    grumpy: you are answering to the least important parts of what I said... 😉

  231. grumpy

    > Ge0rG‎: grumpy: and if your friend's client supports AMIGO, it can just cache your fingerprint and accept a JID update from anyone asserting that same identity That is IMO the most important one.

  232. grumpy


  233. Ge0rG

    grumpy: yes

  234. jonas’

    grumpy, > Thats good. Because that fact could be exposed to the user and the client could remind maybe *not* to choose a server *not* supporting moves. That doesn’t help the users which are already on such a server.

  235. Ge0rG

    grumpy: > pep.: it would work the same with OX or any other mechanism where you established trust before server shutdown > It's counter productive to implement a new crypto scheme just for this pep. [09:22]: > You can just plug in anything that'll prove your identity

  236. grumpy

    > jonas’‎: That doesn’t help the users which are already on such a server. Sadly true.

  237. Ge0rG

    Now that I've wrote the sentence about x25519, I have a feeling I need to write it down and implement it, just to prove a point

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  241. grumpy

    Ge0rG‎: I would guess that a lot of people would like it because of having working MAM again. :)

  242. Ge0rG

    Also the whole implementation would be something like 100 LoC

  243. jonas’

    how’d you do the sync?

  244. Ge0rG

    But it wouldn't appeal to cryptowhores, who are the main promotion group for XMPP

  245. Ge0rG

    jonas’: what sync?

  246. grumpy

    sync the keys between devices, i suppose.

  247. jonas’

    what grumpy says

  248. Ge0rG

    > The most sophisticated part would be a phrase / QR based challenge response handshake to establish mutual trust between two devices (your own or your friend's), to exchange keys on the wire

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  250. jonas’


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  255. pep.

    "grumpy> Thats good. Because that fact could be exposed to the user and the client could remind maybe *not* to choose a server *not* supporting moves. ;)" < So you're not considering existing accounts?

  256. pep.

    Oh jonas’ already pointed that out

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  258. pep.

    Ge0rG, please do

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  261. Ge0rG

    and the libsodium.so should be <200KB

  262. grumpy

    pep.: Yes, and I of course agree that existing accounts should be taken into consideration too. I was just overwhelmed by the idea that clients could give the users a useful recommendation for selecting a server. :)

  263. Ge0rG

    "useful recommendation" is a HARD problem. yax.im for example tries to strive a good balance between stable and required-but-beta features, and is the server with the best spam filtering. But the former means it's bad at "compliance" "benchmarks", and there is no automatic way to convey the latter. So from outside, it looks sucky.

  264. grumpy

    I understand, but don't you think there are at least some things which could be taken into account, like longevity, s2s-availability, valid ssl-certs, support of some basic XEPs. currently users pick servers by names and... yeah thats it. :)

  265. grumpy

    s/s2s-availability/stable s2s-availability/ :)

  266. Ge0rG

    grumpy: some of those things can't be usefully measured by a client

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  269. grumpy

    I was thinking of having a list somewhere at xmpp.org/net which client devolopers could pull at minumun at built time or at which online. That would contradict the spirit federation a bit, though.

  270. grumpy


  271. jonas’

    grumpy, you’re aware of this thing? https://compliance.conversations.im/

  272. jonas’

    nice, browser in-page search doesn’t work there

  273. Ge0rG

    jonas’: yeah. You can't search for a server domain.

  274. Ge0rG

    And they are sorted by $random

  275. grumpy

    I am of course. ☺ Does any client uses it? I use it manually for myself. And, even without looking, I would guess that yax.im does not have 100%, so would be unfair in Georgs POV. :)

  276. jonas’

    it is on the seventh or so place

  277. jonas’

    from below.

  278. jonas’

    from the bottom.

  279. Ge0rG

    grumpy: it's not "unfair", it is just not providing the right criteria in my mind.

  280. jonas’

    one would need a jury with lots of time on their hand to curate a list of servers

  281. grumpy

    ok, that's what i wanted to express.

  282. Ge0rG

    it's like with xmpp.net - having an A+++ rating won't protect you from an asshole admin or a server that's more down than up

  283. grumpy


  284. grumpy

    I think at least a minimum like sort by uptime would help more than nothing. But we'll see.

  285. pep.

    I did get join{xmpp,jabber}.{net,com,org} (expect jabberxmpp.org actually, for reasons, but I'll poke people), for this ^

  286. jonas’


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  289. pep.

    I did get join{xmpp,jabber}.{net,com,org} (expect joinxmpp.org actually, for reasons, but I'll poke people), for this ^

  290. Ge0rG

    grumpy: there is also https://status.conversations.im/historical/

  291. Ge0rG

    (yes, my ISP was down last night for half an hour or so)

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  293. MattJ

    I only just realised that the bookmarks XEP uses an unregistered URN prefix

  294. Zash

    Legacy reasons

  295. grumpy

    Ge0rG‎: Also know, but unfortunately it's quite incomplete.

  296. grumpy

    Will looking forward on pep.'s site. :)

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  434. ralphm

    Bit late, but no Board Meeting today.

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  444. Tobias

    Awwww..was so looking forward to it

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