XSF Discussion - 2019-02-03

intosi, Kev, MattJ, ralphm Could replace the link on the page https://xmpp.org/getting-started/ Replace the link https://list.jabber.at/ to https://compliance.conversations.im/

We're cleaning up at FOSDEM. Please file a PR.

Thanks!

404.city: those lists are not the same. Also: why?

Ge0rG, The new catalog is better than the old

The compliance tester is not a catalogue

intosi, Kev MattJ ralphm the file https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/517

It's a compliance tester

Just like it says in the name

pep., This is an independent directory. Anyone can add your server. Users can watch server features

Yes I know what the compliance tester is, thanks

I don’t think we should promote a listing which ranks servers by arbitrary criteria

Well any criteria is not going to be good enough for the next person. I don't think xmpp.org should point to a list at all imho

a listing which is sorted alphabetically as an entry point is probably okay

jonas’ I agree with you. Criteria for adding a server to the list.jabber.at - the server is liked by admin jabber.at. The reasons for removing the server do not like admin jabber.at.

How is the compliance tester better. You're sorted by arbitrary criteria as well. As in, it's often not useful to check all the boxes, and those who do might actually not, even.

pep., The fact that this list is independent. Anyone can add your server

Doesn't that apply to both?

Zash, I was banned by the admin list.jabber.at

404.city: I don't think that's what you want for users anyway. I'd like an opinionated list with clear criteria (even if it's "the maintainer of the list has to know the server operator")

Zash, He directly said who I want to add and add. Who I want and delete

That's why I don't think xmpp.org is a good venue

404.city [18:49]: > Zash, I was banned by the admin list.jabber.at What was the reason?

404.city: tbh, judging by your latest actions I'm not really surprised, but heh

pep., Personal conflicts should not affect the addition or removal from the list represented by XMPP.ORG

404.city: was that before or after you blocked s2s with them?

Ge0rG, I just want an independent server list

Make your own

404.city: we all want one. But nobody so far invested the time to maintain an objective list.

Both those lists are independent. Both could ban you for any reason.

Users go to the site xmpp.org

Neither are affiliated with xmpp.org

*sigh* so what does this guy want here?

This kind of thing is why XSF people might be reluctant to host a list or even link to one at all.

I'm all for removing that from xmpp.org. That would also prevent horrors like listing pidgin in the client list. But then 404.city, you can only blame yourself for getting removed from that list.

mati, I want an independent server list

Well that's what the jabber.at list is?

pep., I guess he doesn't like the way it's independent

You mean you want a list officially promoted where you appear

Disclaimer: I run that list.

404.city: why do you want users that bad, I guess you should answer that first

There was a similar debacle about the get-started list some months ago

404.city: you were told back then that you need to gain some trust with the community. This is not how to do it

mati, I don’t like that XMPP.ORG offers a list of servers with a bad update and deletion of servers according to personal preferences of the admin jabber.at

404.city: please define independent then

Ge0rG, I will not forgive add my server. I will forgive add freedom server list

> 404.city: was that before or after you blocked s2s with them? Still interested in that

xmpp.kindergarten

Ge0rG, I removed the server, before he blocked s2s connections.

Not knowing much about this, seems to me a list with clear, checkable criteria anyone can double check independently, that any server can be added to would ALWAYS be better than one where 1 person/group chose manually?

it's a list of XMPP servers that are usable and that I (or you, or anyone) can tell others to use. It has been around for almost 10 years. It tests SRV records, etc, and homepages are actually visited manually be me to check if they contain meaningful information.

I'd vote replace the link with such a list, or remove the link

moparisthebest: would you assist your vote by creating and maintaining that list?

All that is clearly documented when you add the server. If something isn't right, the site gives feedback.

mati, You deleted the server 404 because you didn’t like my position

Ge0rG: uh no, that's the whole point, no one should be in charge of maintaining it

Sounds accept unlimited arbitrary submissions and check them against a defined criteria with code

And I personally wouldn't tell anyone to use a server where your account could get banned just because the admin finds out that you have this or that opinion on XMPP.

It's the only fair/impartial way

mati, 404 is a technically good server and a good privacy policy.

moparisthebest: somebody needs to write the code and run the site. We hardly have the resources to keep xmpp.net online

Ge0rG: well isn't that just the compliance tester?

moparisthebest: compliant to what?

Ge0rG, moparisthebest, I should note that my list code is actually on github, but it's pretty old already and definetly needs some love.

The criteria the code checks for

mati, I blocked the your user for manual spam. You just blocked me

I'm just saying if the xsf is supposed to be impartial it should link to an impartial list with exact criteria defined by code or no list at all

404.city: you blocked the user or the whole domain?

mati, Do you like or dislike the server is the criteria unworthy of XMPP.ORG!

moparisthebest, you can’t solve social problem with technical solutions.

If anyone can remove a server from the list for non technical reasons it's not impartial, and shouldn't be supported by xsf

The xsf explicitly doesn't solve social problems I thought

moparisthebest: an xmpp service is not a purely technical thing

Ge0rG, I blocked only the user in the conference. I complained to the admin jabber.at about his user, but did not manage to describe the complaint.

I think that's all you can grade impartially though

Otherwise you get into endlessly hairy situations

Like this one

The getting started page is there to help people get started. The jabber.at list has info on signing up with many of the listed domains. The compliance checker is great software, but does not really help novice users.

moparisthebest, Better to let jabber.at remove you from list, if c jabber.at is spamming?

Genius!

Emphasis on novice.

Guus: either the xsf is impartial and needs to link to an entirely impartial list or no list at all, or it's partial and should maintain it's own partial list

In my opinion of course

moparisthebest, Now beginners prefer to use https://compliance.conversations.im/

I don't actually care about particulars of this case, I don't care if a server was removed because it broke local laws, either way that means it's not impartial

moparisthebest, I support your opinion

Hell we list Pidgin when we all agree that's a terrible idea, but somehow it's ok to have an arbitrary King of servers... Pretty inconsistent...

404.city, do you have a public list of bannable behaviours from users on your server?

moparisthebest: except we should remove pidgin from the list

moparisthebest: Pidgin is a great example of what happens if you have technical criteria.

MattJ, did you manage to get in touch with the Pidgin guys at FOSDEM?

Link Mauve: There were Pidgin people at FOSDEM?

moparisthebest: I hear you, but maintaining a list of our own would require more resources that we have available. The current list is the next best thing as far as I'm concerned. (Happy to add more lists btw). Not providing any list would defeat the purpose of having a getting started page.

moparisthebest, so just so I get this straight: If an XMPP server illegally sells all private data and chats to an advertising company, it should not be removed from a list, because that wouldn't be impartial?

Zash, apparently there was one person who wrote some patches at some point.

Hmm, by that metric I would count too. :x

Zash: right, but the choice is technical criteria (impartial) or being partial, I don't see a third option

moparisthebest: There's no choice, you can't be impartial

I'm fine either way actually, I just dislike saying we are impartial if we are not

I btw. also (like Guus) advocate that other lists are added there too. I'm happy that my list is there, but I see no reason why conversations.im shouldn't be there too

All you can do is pretend that you're impartial when you're defining the criteria

and if 404.city makes a list, then add his list too, please.

How about everyone makes their own list, and then everyone makes lists of lists, and then the XSF lists those lists

mati: right if an server also required users to overthrow the govt of France and worship the admin as a God you still can't remove it if you are impartial

moparisthebest, being neutral doesn’t mean being impartial.

The compliance checker is not suitable for a 'getting started' kind of user (it is way to technical), which is why it is not linked on that page. I love that checker though, but it serves another purpose.

If some specific software or service is actively being harmful, there is no issue with removing it.

Hmm, actually banning those is still being impartial, they did something you consider not fitting with your goals, and remove advertisement for them.

Guus: It's being used for that already. Everyone loves collecting all the green checkmarks

Link Mauve: IF that's one of the criteria sure

Zash: sure, but not by people that don't really know what XMPP is and need to figure out how to register an account.

I don’t see much contentious issue with that.

Public criteria

Terms of use 404.city Any illegal activity is prohibited. Illegal activities are not protected by a privacy policy - It is forbidden to send spam. Prohibited intrusive advertising other messengers (Telegram, Matrix, etc)

Testable

Zash: aka my mum.

moparisthebest, so better start documenting those.

Guus: Everyone knows that more green == more better

Link Mauve: that's why I like compliance tester or similar, it's already documented with code

🍿

Zash: sure, but the compliance checker list does not link to pages that explain how to register at a particular service. The jabber.at list does.

moparisthebest, that doesn’t take any of the social issues into account.

But please make a compliance tester for clients, so we can stop advertising Pidgin on this merit alone.

Guus: Indeed, but doesn't the compliance checker check for IBR? Then you just type the domain into your client and It Just Works. (Not saying this is good)

I thought most servers have disabled IBR nowadays.

Zash: I don't think that the intended audience for the getting started page understand that.

Guus: Probably not. I don't think it stops them if they have a client that supports IBR.

mati, IBR is kind of mandatory for novice users.

Zash: I assume IBR is mostly disabled?

I would prefer that the lists of servers be created by the code, and not by the admin jabber.at. Admin jabber.at is biased and censored, not respecting the policies "term of use" of other servers

To cold to type on mobile phone further. Need to find next train.

Afk

Link Mauve [19:28]: > MattJ, did you manage to get in touch with the Pidgin guys at FOSDEM? Sadly not

Ok.

Social aspects are useless anyway... Like 404.city says he bans illegal activity, what does that even mean???

Illegal where, for whom

404.city: so you demand all other service admins to follow your own terms of service now?

Even something like "overthrowing govts" is something like France wouldn't like to happen there but would like to happen in Venezuela, useless

Xsf should focus on the technical side only in my opinion

Guus: I wouldn't assume that everyone disables IBR. I think it allows for good UX. It might be common however for it to simply be a redirect to a website.

moparisthebest, we would like that to happen in France though. :p

Lol well right

That's basically my point

Guus, Zash: I have IBR enabled on yax.im and there are almost zero spam bots

When coming back from FOSDEM, I saw a sign saying “the old regime must fall — the people” written on the train. ^^

mati: ^ also

I also have IBR enabled on jabber.fr and most spam bots are identified and dealt with.

IBR is fine if the service admin is being responsible

moparisthebest: it's all about social issues, I don't think there is such a thing as impartial. In the end somebody will make a (biased?) decision that others will disagree with.. Even if it's somewhat in line with published ToS

pep.: Then IMHO xsf should remove the link or quit claiming to be impartial

moparisthebest, is the goal to make the website as useless as possible?

Link Mauve: apparently yes ✏

Impartiality >> Usefulness, no? I thought that was in the bylaws somewhere

Or say we are partial and elect a king of the list Link Mauve

Can we then delegate handling of the xmpp.org domain to the XDF (provisional name)?

I feel like having it being useful is way more useful than it being impartial.

But I may be partial.

Or maybe the board gets to vote on servers now

I'm ok with basically anything but the current situation of saying "we are impartial, but the servers we recommend are curated by someone we don't know and have no control over" that seems wrong

Stop saying we are impartial, stop linking to that list, or make an impartial list

Or stop saying we are impartial and come up with a fair process to curate a list

Link Mauve: I'm sure it doesn't have to be impartial, it's of course biased. And yeah I'd remove that from xmpp.org and use another more adapted venue

That's the hardest though

moparisthebest, a list of servers will always be incomplete, that prevents it from being fully impartial already so… Why?

Not if anyone can submit to it

You’re already heavily biaised towards servers which advertise themselves, which have admins speaking English, who know about xmpp.org, etc. ✏

Found warm train. 😁

Found warm home already. ^^

Link Mauve: There's also a bias towards XMPP servers

I think this is being pulled out of proportion, tbh.

waqas, yes, and public ones at that!

Pull requests accepted, translations accepted, problems solved

I don't see an issue with retaining the jabber.at list, and would add more. I'm not convinced that the compliance checker is a suitable list for that page.

> Found warm home already. ^^ Lucky bastard 😉

Guus, +1.

moparisthebest, this is quite fallacious tbh.

moparisthebest [19:50]: > Stop saying we are impartial, stop linking to that list, or make an impartial list Linking to an external list is different from maintaining a list

We don't have a mandate to only link to impartial sites

Otherwise we'd have to remove all external links

Great can we remove Pidgin then

moparisthebest: I wish we could

Since we are partial and most of us want it removed

moparisthebest: send a PR

You mean another one :)

I hated the addition too, because it harms us all, in my opinion. But I'm not on board, so it's not my decision

(and yes, I brought that up with Board)

Ge0rG, No, I do not require other servers to follow the rules of 404. I will forgive an independent list of servers on xmpp.org. I don't want admin jabber.at to decide which servers XFS recommends!

Crazy idea: instead of pointing to a list of servers, where the top 10 grow untik they have to close registrations, why not invest energy into sites like yubohost which tell users how to setup and selfhost their own servers easily and *properly*?

We need both. Most users will never do that

yunohost* presumably

vanitasvitae, it’s a significantly higher barrier of entry.

Also, most people who can do that already have a server running which can install an XMPP server in an easier way.

Surely, but having mlre servers is not a bad thing

I agree though, my mom happily uses my xmpp server, she'd never in a million years set one up

"Guus> I don't see an issue with retaining the jabber.at list, and would add more.", then people are going to complain about the order in which your present these lists :p

vanitasvitae: 👍

pep.: random order of course :)

pep.: people are going to complain.

vanitasvitae: mlre?

Ge0rG: yes, that's my point

> vanitasvitae: mlre? What does that mean? :D

404.city: the XSF recommends a list, not servers. There is currently one well maintained list out there.

I think he's asking what mlre means

I haven't heard that either

I think it means "more"

Lol too used to acronyms...

:D

Ah yeah sorry I meant more servers

I mean, thats the basis of federation.

Ge0rG, List list.jabber.at closed list. Adding to this list depends on one person. This is a biased list

Ge0rG, XFS should not be a place where one person decides which servers to recommend.

I think we've beat the horse enough 404.city , put in a pr linking to another list in addition, and a note saying these lists are not impartial

I hope to see a freedom community XFS.

I prefer BTRFS

> I prefer BTRFS 😅

Guys, I loves the summit & our FOSDEM participation!

Thanks everyone, especially those brave enough the get up on the stage to spread the word! 😉

👍🎉💪

mati Ge0rG Can I install the server of the matrix and go to your conferences, offering to abandon your servers? Then you will understand my thoughts... I’ll sign up for jabber.at server to have it delete you if you try to block me)

mati This is a joke, but I expected an understanding of the problem

To be clear that's his list, he can do what he wants with it, he can ban you because you like the color yellow, I have no problem with this

Only the xsf claiming to be impartial yet linking only to that list :)

Anyway, we have the solution, put in a pr 404.city

moparisthebest, I even added both lists list.jabber.at + compliance.conversations.im, let users choose what is best for them, but this was rejected

I think the XFS community is a closed community where new members do not respect. I am disappointed in XFS lobbying interests of old participants. I have bad english that express thoughts correctly.

I'm not sure if there's an "XFS community", but I personally find the XMPP community to be one of the nicest to be found online. That was the attraction for me roughly a decade ago.

404.city: It must be annoying that your service is not listed, I get that. I will happily add another list (that includes you), but do not think that the compliance checker list is a good list for the Getting Started page.

404.city: if I understood the consensus in here a few minutes ago, it was we can add new lists, so put in a PR to do so

Regardless of whether it's a good idea to add the compliance list there, I just want to point out again that my list is open source and anyone can host a copy.

And anyone who wants to can file issues or PRs and I'm happy to improve any documentation that is surely missing

And I like to have independent lists. I'll happily add links to any other list, just like jabber.at has links to the compliance list

Guss If I create a list where there are no preconceived addition terms, will it be added as an alternative?

mati, Add back to your list 404.city

Guus: thanks for your kind comments on GitHub. That helped my mood.

mati You ruined my mood. I did not quarrel with you, you just picked it up and deleted it

What is the point of XFS if it does not protect the rights of administrators of XMPP servers, but advertises biased lists.

Storing files, I guess.

(Sorry.)

404.city, protecting your rights should be up to your country, tho.

Or something similar.

Can we now stop reiterating points that have already been brought up please?

🍿

404.city: why do you want users that bad? Seriously. I'd love to have an answer to that question

404.city: why do you want users that bad? Seriously. I'd love to have an answer to that question

vanitasvitae, Yes. I see no point in participating in XFS. If I offer a new list of impartial, he will again be rejected

pep., I can not translate your question. Rephrase

404.city: why do you trie so hard to gain useres, pep. asked

s/useres/users

j.r, I wanted to open a non-profit organization supporting the development of XMPP, decentralization, etc

Also s/trie/try

That doesn't answer the question

> Also s/trie/try Typing on mobile xD

j.r, We need more users to attract investment to the opening

You can do that without having a ton of users on yohr server

(Which actually hurts decentralization) :D

vanitasvitae, This you can do. I cant. I am not from the country where it is easy to do

For what it's worth: I acted (rejected the PRs) primarily based on motivations that I know are not universally agreed upon by the XSF members. If desired, we can bring this before the board.

404.city: so you have an undisclosed financial interest in the users? What do you offer your investors?

Guus: I wish you had rejected the pidgin pr on such grounds

Ge0rG: let's handle one hot potato at a time 😁

vanitasvitae, Developing modern XMPP clients on PCs requires large investments

Also just to say: 404.city provocatively registered @xmpp@mastodon.social as Mastodon ID... it looks a bit like an official account of the XFS or so if you see the handle first

j.r: I'm guessing you did not yet finish eating your popcorn? 😆

Guus: yeay

* yea

j.r: yeah it would be nice if that handle would be transfered over to the XSF / if the XSF would have acted earlier to be present on the fediverse.

Or self-host it

vanitasvitae: that's what I wanted to say...

Or pick another server

j.r, We specifically did not use XMPP in the domain, although this is possible.

404.city: I think you didn't get me

I’ve been discussing with a girl who’s writing an ActivityPub server at FOSDEM, it doesn’t sound as incompatible as I thought before, and I may try a few things with it.

Unfortunately they dont offer popcorn on the train, so I have to fall back to kinder choco bons

XMPPub

j.r, Mastodon does not allow to change the nickname. If XFS needs my account, can I give it away or delete account

404.city: why did you registed this id?

j.r I did not think about it. It is simply short for XMPP server.

Hm ok

> j.r, Mastodon does not allow to change the nickname. If XFS needs my account, can I give it away or delete account That's a gracious offer, thank you. If the commteam thinks having access to that account has value, then I hope they will reach out to you. Cc nyco, jcbrand, seve

Phone battery dead! Goodnight everyone!

g'night Guus

s/XFS/XSF/g

404.city, interesting, which client(s?) are you planning to support with money raised by having users?

Also, did you discuss with the authors of these clients as for whether that’s the best course of action?

Link Mauve,I love talking about the present reality, not about dreams

j.r: What's is that account of yours? I'm missing context, sorry :)

Seve: you mean @xmpp@mastodon.social ?

Or what?

Wow, I heard about laws for this but I didn't know this was actively enforced: https://monal.im/blog/omemo-and-french-laws/ Does anybody know since when this is the case? Any other countries? Is/was any other client's distribution affected? I'm curious!