404.cityintosi, Kev, MattJ, ralphm Could replace the link on the page https://xmpp.org/getting-started/ Replace the link https://list.jabber.at/ to https://compliance.conversations.im/
ralphmWe're cleaning up at FOSDEM. Please file a PR.
ralphmThanks!
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Ge0rG404.city: those lists are not the same. Also: why?
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404.cityGe0rG, The new catalog is better than the old
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pep.The compliance tester is not a catalogue
404.cityintosi, Kev MattJ ralphm the file https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/517
pep.It's a compliance tester
pep.Just like it says in the name
404.citypep., This is an independent directory. Anyone can add your server. Users can watch server features
pep.Yes I know what the compliance tester is, thanks
jonas’I don’t think we should promote a listing which ranks servers by arbitrary criteria
pep.Well any criteria is not going to be good enough for the next person. I don't think xmpp.org should point to a list at all imho
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jonas’a listing which is sorted alphabetically as an entry point is probably okay
404.cityjonas’ I agree with you. Criteria for adding a server to the list.jabber.at - the server is liked by admin jabber.at. The reasons for removing the server do not like admin jabber.at.
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pep.How is the compliance tester better. You're sorted by arbitrary criteria as well. As in, it's often not useful to check all the boxes, and those who do might actually not, even.
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404.citypep., The fact that this list is independent. Anyone can add your server
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ZashDoesn't that apply to both?
404.cityZash, I was banned by the admin list.jabber.at
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pep.404.city: I don't think that's what you want for users anyway. I'd like an opinionated list with clear criteria (even if it's "the maintainer of the list has to know the server operator")
404.cityZash, He directly said who I want to add and add. Who I want and delete
pep.That's why I don't think xmpp.org is a good venue
Ge0rG404.city [18:49]:
> Zash, I was banned by the admin list.jabber.at
What was the reason?
pep.404.city: tbh, judging by your latest actions I'm not really surprised, but heh
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404.citypep., Personal conflicts should not affect the addition or removal from the list represented by XMPP.ORG
Ge0rG404.city: was that before or after you blocked s2s with them?
404.cityGe0rG, I just want an independent server list
ZashMake your own
Ge0rG404.city: we all want one. But nobody so far invested the time to maintain an objective list.
ZashBoth those lists are independent. Both could ban you for any reason.
404.cityUsers go to the site xmpp.org
ZashNeither are affiliated with xmpp.org
mati*sigh* so what does this guy want here?
ZashThis kind of thing is why XSF people might be reluctant to host a list or even link to one at all.
pep.I'm all for removing that from xmpp.org. That would also prevent horrors like listing pidgin in the client list. But then 404.city, you can only blame yourself for getting removed from that list.
404.citymati, I want an independent server list
pep.Well that's what the jabber.at list is?
matipep., I guess he doesn't like the way it's independent
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pep.You mean you want a list officially promoted where you appear
matiDisclaimer: I run that list.
pep.404.city: why do you want users that bad, I guess you should answer that first
Ge0rGThere was a similar debacle about the get-started list some months ago
Ge0rG404.city: you were told back then that you need to gain some trust with the community. This is not how to do it
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404.citymati, I don’t like that XMPP.ORG offers a list of servers with a bad update and deletion of servers according to personal preferences of the admin jabber.at
pep.404.city: please define independent then
404.cityGe0rG, I will not forgive add my server. I will forgive add freedom server list
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Ge0rG> 404.city: was that before or after you blocked s2s with them?
Still interested in that
Ge0rGxmpp.kindergarten
matiGe0rG, I removed the server, before he blocked s2s connections.
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moparisthebestNot knowing much about this, seems to me a list with clear, checkable criteria anyone can double check independently, that any server can be added to would ALWAYS be better than one where 1 person/group chose manually?
matiit's a list of XMPP servers that are usable and that I (or you, or anyone) can tell others to use. It has been around for almost 10 years. It tests SRV records, etc, and homepages are actually visited manually be me to check if they contain meaningful information.
moparisthebestI'd vote replace the link with such a list, or remove the link
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: would you assist your vote by creating and maintaining that list?
matiAll that is clearly documented when you add the server. If something isn't right, the site gives feedback.
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404.citymati, You deleted the server 404 because you didn’t like my position
moparisthebestGe0rG: uh no, that's the whole point, no one should be in charge of maintaining it
moparisthebestSounds accept unlimited arbitrary submissions and check them against a defined criteria with code
matiAnd I personally wouldn't tell anyone to use a server where your account could get banned just because the admin finds out that you have this or that opinion on XMPP.
moparisthebestIt's the only fair/impartial way
404.citymati, 404 is a technically good server and a good privacy policy.
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: somebody needs to write the code and run the site. We hardly have the resources to keep xmpp.net online
moparisthebestGe0rG: well isn't that just the compliance tester?
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: compliant to what?
matiGe0rG, moparisthebest, I should note that my list code is actually on github, but it's pretty old already and definetly needs some love.
moparisthebestThe criteria the code checks for
404.citymati, I blocked the your user for manual spam. You just blocked me
moparisthebestI'm just saying if the xsf is supposed to be impartial it should link to an impartial list with exact criteria defined by code or no list at all
Ge0rG404.city: you blocked the user or the whole domain?
404.citymati, Do you like or dislike the server is the criteria unworthy of XMPP.ORG!
Link Mauvemoparisthebest, you can’t solve social problem with technical solutions.
moparisthebestIf anyone can remove a server from the list for non technical reasons it's not impartial, and shouldn't be supported by xsf
moparisthebestThe xsf explicitly doesn't solve social problems I thought
Zashmoparisthebest: an xmpp service is not a purely technical thing
404.cityGe0rG, I blocked only the user in the conference. I complained to the admin jabber.at about his user, but did not manage to describe the complaint.
moparisthebestI think that's all you can grade impartially though
moparisthebestOtherwise you get into endlessly hairy situations
moparisthebestLike this one
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GuusThe getting started page is there to help people get started. The jabber.at list has info on signing up with many of the listed domains. The compliance checker is great software, but does not really help novice users.
404.citymoparisthebest, Better to let jabber.at remove you from list, if c jabber.at is spamming?
404.cityGenius!
GuusEmphasis on novice.
moparisthebestGuus: either the xsf is impartial and needs to link to an entirely impartial list or no list at all, or it's partial and should maintain it's own partial list
moparisthebestIn my opinion of course
404.citymoparisthebest, Now beginners prefer to use https://compliance.conversations.im/
moparisthebestI don't actually care about particulars of this case, I don't care if a server was removed because it broke local laws, either way that means it's not impartial
404.citymoparisthebest, I support your opinion
moparisthebestHell we list Pidgin when we all agree that's a terrible idea, but somehow it's ok to have an arbitrary King of servers... Pretty inconsistent...
Link Mauve404.city, do you have a public list of bannable behaviours from users on your server?
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: except we should remove pidgin from the list
Zashmoparisthebest: Pidgin is a great example of what happens if you have technical criteria.
Link MauveMattJ, did you manage to get in touch with the Pidgin guys at FOSDEM?
ZashLink Mauve: There were Pidgin people at FOSDEM?
Guusmoparisthebest: I hear you, but maintaining a list of our own would require more resources that we have available. The current list is the next best thing as far as I'm concerned. (Happy to add more lists btw). Not providing any list would defeat the purpose of having a getting started page.
matimoparisthebest, so just so I get this straight: If an XMPP server illegally sells all private data and chats to an advertising company, it should not be removed from a list, because that wouldn't be impartial?
Link MauveZash, apparently there was one person who wrote some patches at some point.
Link MauveHmm, by that metric I would count too. :x
moparisthebestZash: right, but the choice is technical criteria (impartial) or being partial, I don't see a third option
Zashmoparisthebest: There's no choice, you can't be impartial
moparisthebestI'm fine either way actually, I just dislike saying we are impartial if we are not
matiI btw. also (like Guus) advocate that other lists are added there too. I'm happy that my list is there, but I see no reason why conversations.im shouldn't be there too
ZashAll you can do is pretend that you're impartial when you're defining the criteria
matiand if 404.city makes a list, then add his list too, please.
ZashHow about everyone makes their own list, and then everyone makes lists of lists, and then the XSF lists those lists
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moparisthebestmati: right if an server also required users to overthrow the govt of France and worship the admin as a God you still can't remove it if you are impartial
Link Mauvemoparisthebest, being neutral doesn’t mean being impartial.
GuusThe compliance checker is not suitable for a 'getting started' kind of user (it is way to technical), which is why it is not linked on that page. I love that checker though, but it serves another purpose.
Link MauveIf some specific software or service is actively being harmful, there is no issue with removing it.
Link MauveHmm, actually banning those is still being impartial, they did something you consider not fitting with your goals, and remove advertisement for them.
ZashGuus: It's being used for that already. Everyone loves collecting all the green checkmarks
moparisthebestLink Mauve: IF that's one of the criteria sure
GuusZash: sure, but not by people that don't really know what XMPP is and need to figure out how to register an account.
Link MauveI don’t see much contentious issue with that.
moparisthebestPublic criteria
404.cityTerms of use 404.city
Any illegal activity is prohibited. Illegal activities are not protected by a privacy policy
- It is forbidden to send spam. Prohibited intrusive advertising other messengers (Telegram, Matrix, etc)
moparisthebestTestable
GuusZash: aka my mum.
Link Mauvemoparisthebest, so better start documenting those.
ZashGuus: Everyone knows that more green == more better
moparisthebestLink Mauve: that's why I like compliance tester or similar, it's already documented with code
wurstsalat🍿
GuusZash: sure, but the compliance checker list does not link to pages that explain how to register at a particular service. The jabber.at list does.
Link Mauvemoparisthebest, that doesn’t take any of the social issues into account.
Link MauveBut please make a compliance tester for clients, so we can stop advertising Pidgin on this merit alone.
ZashGuus: Indeed, but doesn't the compliance checker check for IBR? Then you just type the domain into your client and It Just Works. (Not saying this is good)
matiI thought most servers have disabled IBR nowadays.
GuusZash: I don't think that the intended audience for the getting started page understand that.
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ZashGuus: Probably not. I don't think it stops them if they have a client that supports IBR.
Link Mauvemati, IBR is kind of mandatory for novice users.
GuusZash: I assume IBR is mostly disabled?
404.city
I would prefer that the lists of servers be created by the code, and not by the admin jabber.at.
Admin jabber.at is biased and censored, not respecting the policies "term of use" of other servers
GuusTo cold to type on mobile phone further. Need to find next train.
GuusAfk
MattJLink Mauve [19:28]:
> MattJ, did you manage to get in touch with the Pidgin guys at FOSDEM?
Sadly not
Link MauveOk.
moparisthebestSocial aspects are useless anyway... Like 404.city says he bans illegal activity, what does that even mean???
moparisthebestIllegal where, for whom
Ge0rG404.city: so you demand all other service admins to follow your own terms of service now?
Ge0rGnow could add "Do not be an asshole" to his ToS and block 404.city?
moparisthebestEven something like "overthrowing govts" is something like France wouldn't like to happen there but would like to happen in Venezuela, useless
moparisthebestXsf should focus on the technical side only in my opinion
ZashGuus: I wouldn't assume that everyone disables IBR. I think it allows for good UX. It might be common however for it to simply be a redirect to a website.
Link Mauvemoparisthebest, we would like that to happen in France though. :p
moparisthebestLol well right
moparisthebestThat's basically my point
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Ge0rGGuus, Zash: I have IBR enabled on yax.im and there are almost zero spam bots
Link MauveWhen coming back from FOSDEM, I saw a sign saying “the old regime must fall — the people” written on the train. ^^
Zashmati: ^ also
Link MauveI also have IBR enabled on jabber.fr and most spam bots are identified and dealt with.
ZashIBR is fine if the service admin is being responsible
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pep.moparisthebest: it's all about social issues, I don't think there is such a thing as impartial. In the end somebody will make a (biased?) decision that others will disagree with.. Even if it's somewhat in line with published ToS
moparisthebestpep.: Then IMHO xsf should remove the link or quit claiming to be impartial
Link Mauvemoparisthebest, is the goal to make the website as useless as possible?
Ge0rGLink Mauve: apparently ye.
Ge0rGLink Mauve: apparently yes
waqasImpartiality >> Usefulness, no? I thought that was in the bylaws somewhere
moparisthebestOr say we are partial and elect a king of the list Link Mauve
Link MauveCan we then delegate handling of the xmpp.org domain to the XDF (provisional name)?
Link MauveI feel like having it being useful is way more useful than it being impartial.
Link MauveBut I may be partial.
moparisthebestOr maybe the board gets to vote on servers now
moparisthebestI'm ok with basically anything but the current situation of saying "we are impartial, but the servers we recommend are curated by someone we don't know and have no control over" that seems wrong
moparisthebestStop saying we are impartial, stop linking to that list, or make an impartial list
moparisthebestOr stop saying we are impartial and come up with a fair process to curate a list
pep.Link Mauve: I'm sure it doesn't have to be impartial, it's of course biased. And yeah I'd remove that from xmpp.org and use another more adapted venue
moparisthebestThat's the hardest though
Link Mauvemoparisthebest, a list of servers will always be incomplete, that prevents it from being fully impartial already so… Why?
moparisthebestNot if anyone can submit to it
Link MauveYou’re already heavily biaised towards servers which advertise themselves, which have admins speaking English, which know about xmpp.org, etc.
Link MauveYou’re already heavily biaised towards servers which advertise themselves, which have admins speaking English, who know about xmpp.org, etc.
GuusFound warm train. 😁
Link MauveFound warm home already. ^^
waqasLink Mauve: There's also a bias towards XMPP servers
GuusI think this is being pulled out of proportion, tbh.
GuusI don't see an issue with retaining the jabber.at list, and would add more. I'm not convinced that the compliance checker is a suitable list for that page.
Guus> Found warm home already. ^^
Lucky bastard 😉
Link MauveGuus, +1.
Link Mauvemoparisthebest, this is quite fallacious tbh.
Ge0rGmoparisthebest [19:50]:
> Stop saying we are impartial, stop linking to that list, or make an impartial list
Linking to an external list is different from maintaining a list
Ge0rGWe don't have a mandate to only link to impartial sites
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Ge0rGOtherwise we'd have to remove all external links
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moparisthebestGreat can we remove Pidgin then
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: I wish we could
moparisthebestSince we are partial and most of us want it removed
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: send a PR
pep.You mean another one :)
Ge0rGI hated the addition too, because it harms us all, in my opinion. But I'm not on board, so it's not my decision
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Ge0rG(and yes, I brought that up with Board)
404.cityGe0rG, No, I do not require other servers to follow the rules of 404. I will forgive an independent list of servers on xmpp.org. I don't want admin jabber.at to decide which servers XFS recommends!
vanitasvitaeCrazy idea: instead of pointing to a list of servers, where the top 10 grow untik they have to close registrations, why not invest energy into sites like yubohost which tell users how to setup and selfhost their own servers easily and *properly*?
pep.We need both. Most users will never do that
moparisthebestyunohost* presumably
Link Mauvevanitasvitae, it’s a significantly higher barrier of entry.
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Link MauveAlso, most people who can do that already have a server running which can install an XMPP server in an easier way.
vanitasvitaeSurely, but having mlre servers is not a bad thing
moparisthebestI agree though, my mom happily uses my xmpp server, she'd never in a million years set one up
pep."Guus> I don't see an issue with retaining the jabber.at list, and would add more.", then people are going to complain about the order in which your present these lists :p
Zashvanitasvitae: 👍
moparisthebestpep.: random order of course :)
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Ge0rGpep.: people are going to complain.
pep.vanitasvitae: mlre?
pep.Ge0rG: yes, that's my point
vanitasvitae> vanitasvitae: mlre?
What does that mean? :D
Ge0rG404.city: the XSF recommends a list, not servers. There is currently one well maintained list out there.
moparisthebestI think he's asking what mlre means
moparisthebestI haven't heard that either
Ge0rGI think it means "more"
moparisthebestLol too used to acronyms...
vanitasvitae:D
vanitasvitaeAh yeah sorry I meant more servers
vanitasvitaeI mean, thats the basis of federation.
404.cityGe0rG, List list.jabber.at closed list. Adding to this list depends on one person. This is a biased list
404.cityGe0rG, XFS should not be a place where one person decides which servers to recommend.
moparisthebestI think we've beat the horse enough 404.city , put in a pr linking to another list in addition, and a note saying these lists are not impartial
404.cityI hope to see a freedom community XFS.
moparisthebestI prefer BTRFS
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vanitasvitae> I prefer BTRFS
😅
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GuusGuys, I loves the summit & our FOSDEM participation!
GuusThanks everyone, especially those brave enough the get up on the stage to spread the word! 😉
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ralphm👍🎉💪
404.citymati Ge0rG Can I install the server of the matrix and go to your conferences, offering to abandon your servers? Then you will understand my thoughts... I’ll sign up for jabber.at server to have it delete you if you try to block me)
404.citymati This is a joke, but I expected an understanding of the problem
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moparisthebestTo be clear that's his list, he can do what he wants with it, he can ban you because you like the color yellow, I have no problem with this
moparisthebestOnly the xsf claiming to be impartial yet linking only to that list :)
moparisthebestAnyway, we have the solution, put in a pr 404.city
404.citymoparisthebest, I even added both lists list.jabber.at + compliance.conversations.im, let users choose what is best for them, but this was rejected
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404.cityI think the XFS community is a closed community where new members do not respect. I am disappointed in XFS lobbying interests of old participants. I have bad english that express thoughts correctly.
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waqasI'm not sure if there's an "XFS community", but I personally find the XMPP community to be one of the nicest to be found online. That was the attraction for me roughly a decade ago.
Guus404.city: It must be annoying that your service is not listed, I get that. I will happily add another list (that includes you), but do not think that the compliance checker list is a good list for the Getting Started page.
moparisthebest404.city: if I understood the consensus in here a few minutes ago, it was we can add new lists, so put in a PR to do so
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matiRegardless of whether it's a good idea to add the compliance list there, I just want to point out again that my list is open source and anyone can host a copy.
matiAnd anyone who wants to can file issues or PRs and I'm happy to improve any documentation that is surely missing
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matiAnd I like to have independent lists. I'll happily add links to any other list, just like jabber.at has links to the compliance list
404.cityGuss If I create a list where there are no preconceived addition terms, will it be added as an alternative?
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404.citymati, Add back to your list 404.city
matiGuus: thanks for your kind comments on GitHub. That helped my mood.
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404.citymati You ruined my mood. I did not quarrel with you, you just picked it up and deleted it
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404.cityWhat is the point of XFS if it does not protect the rights of administrators of XMPP servers, but advertises biased lists.
Link MauveStoring files, I guess.
Link Mauve(Sorry.)
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Link Mauve404.city, protecting your rights should be up to your country, tho.
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Link MauveOr something similar.
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vanitasvitaeCan we now stop reiterating points that have already been brought up please?
j.r🍿
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pep.404.city: why do you want users that bad? Seriously. I'd love to have an answer to that question
pep.404.city: why do you want users that bad? Seriously. I'd love to have an answer to that question
404.cityvanitasvitae, Yes. I see no point in participating in XFS. If I offer a new list of impartial, he will again be rejected
404.citypep., I can not translate your question. Rephrase
j.r404.city: why do you trie so hard to gain useres, pep. asked
j.rs/useres/users
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404.cityj.r, I wanted to open a non-profit organization supporting the development of XMPP, decentralization, etc
vanitasvitaeAlso s/trie/try
j.rThat doesn't answer the question
j.r> Also s/trie/try
Typing on mobile xD
404.cityj.r, We need more users to attract investment to the opening
vanitasvitaeYou can do that without having a ton of users on yohr server
404.cityvanitasvitae, This you can do. I cant. I am not from the country where it is easy to do
GuusFor what it's worth: I acted (rejected the PRs) primarily based on motivations that I know are not universally agreed upon by the XSF members. If desired, we can bring this before the board.
Ge0rG404.city: so you have an undisclosed financial interest in the users? What do you offer your investors?
Ge0rGGuus: I wish you had rejected the pidgin pr on such grounds
GuusGe0rG: let's handle one hot potato at a time 😁
404.cityvanitasvitae, Developing modern XMPP clients on PCs requires large investments
j.rAlso just to say: 404.city provocatively registered @xmpp@mastodon.social as Mastodon ID... it looks a bit like an official account of the XFS or so if you see the handle first
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Guusj.r: I'm guessing you did not yet finish eating your popcorn? 😆
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j.rGuus: yeay
j.r* yea
vanitasvitaej.r: yeah it would be nice if that handle would be transfered over to the XSF / if the XSF would have acted earlier to be present on the fediverse.
ZashOr self-host it
j.rvanitasvitae: that's what I wanted to say...
ZashOr pick another server
404.cityj.r, We specifically did not use XMPP in the domain, although this is possible.
j.r404.city: I think you didn't get me
Link MauveI’ve been discussing with a girl who’s writing an ActivityPub server at FOSDEM, it doesn’t sound as incompatible as I thought before, and I may try a few things with it.
vanitasvitaeUnfortunately they dont offer popcorn on the train, so I have to fall back to kinder choco bons
vanitasvitaeXMPPub
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404.cityj.r, Mastodon does not allow to change the nickname. If XFS needs my account, can I give it away or delete account
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j.r404.city: why did you registed this id?
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404.cityj.r I did not think about it. It is simply short for XMPP server.
j.rHm ok
Guus> j.r, Mastodon does not allow to change the nickname. If XFS needs my account, can I give it away or delete account
That's a gracious offer, thank you. If the commteam thinks having access to that account has value, then I hope they will reach out to you. Cc nyco, jcbrand, seve
GuusPhone battery dead! Goodnight everyone!
flowg'night Guus
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jonas’s/XFS/XSF/g
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Link Mauve404.city, interesting, which client(s?) are you planning to support with money raised by having users?
Link MauveAlso, did you discuss with the authors of these clients as for whether that’s the best course of action?
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404.cityLink Mauve,I love talking about the present reality, not about dreams
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Sevej.r: What's is that account of yours? I'm missing context, sorry :)
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j.rSeve: you mean @xmpp@mastodon.social ?
j.rOr what?
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wurstsalatWow, I heard about laws for this but I didn't know this was actively enforced: https://monal.im/blog/omemo-and-french-laws/ Does anybody know since when this is the case? Any other countries? Is/was any other client's distribution affected? I'm curious!
XSF Discussion - 2019-02-03