XSF Discussion - 2019-02-03

  1. Half-ShotX has joined

  2. jjrh has left

  3. jjrh has joined

  4. Guus has joined

  5. lovetox has left

  6. dwd has left

  7. lskdjf has left

  8. lskdjf has joined

  9. jjrh has left

  10. jjrh has joined

  11. Half-ShotX has left

  12. Half-ShotX has joined

  13. Half-ShotX has left

  14. Half-ShotX has joined

  15. jjrh has left

  16. Half-ShotX has left

  17. Half-ShotX has joined

  18. Half-ShotX has left

  19. Half-ShotX has joined

  20. jjrh has joined

  21. UsL has left

  22. UsL has joined

  23. labdsf has left

  24. marc_ has left

  25. labdsf has joined

  26. Guus has left

  27. Guus has joined

  28. Guus has left

  29. jjrh has left

  30. jjrh has joined

  31. MattJ has joined

  32. Half-ShotX has left

  33. Half-ShotX has joined

  34. Lance has joined

  35. Lance has left

  36. Guus has joined

  37. mtavares has joined

  38. Half-ShotX has left

  39. Half-ShotX has joined

  40. jjrh has left

  41. lskdjf has joined

  42. Guus has left

  43. Guus has joined

  44. Half-ShotX has left

  45. Half-ShotX has joined

  46. kokonoe has left

  47. Guus has left

  48. jjrh has joined

  49. kokonoe has joined

  50. Tobias has joined

  51. jjrh has left

  52. Guus has joined

  53. Half-ShotX has left

  54. Half-ShotX has joined

  55. jjrh has joined

  56. lskdjf has joined

  57. lorddavidiii has left

  58. Half-ShotX has left

  59. Half-ShotX has joined

  60. Guus has left

  61. Guus has joined

  62. rtq3 has joined

  63. Half-ShotX has left

  64. Half-ShotX has joined

  65. Guus has left

  66. frainz has left

  67. frainz has joined

  68. Half-ShotX has left

  69. Half-ShotX has joined

  70. jjrh has left

  71. rtq3 has left

  72. rtq3 has joined

  73. Half-ShotX has left

  74. Half-ShotX has joined

  75. Guus has joined

  76. lskdjf has joined

  77. l has joined

  78. Half-ShotX has left

  79. Half-ShotX has joined

  80. l has joined

  81. Guus has left

  82. Guus has joined

  83. Guus has left

  84. efrit has joined

  85. lskdjf has joined

  86. Guus has joined

  87. rtq3 has left

  88. Half-ShotX has left

  89. Half-ShotX has joined

  90. jjrh has joined

  91. Guus has left

  92. Guus has joined

  93. Guus has left

  94. Half-ShotX has left

  95. Half-ShotX has joined

  96. Guus has joined

  97. Half-ShotX has left

  98. Half-ShotX has joined

  99. kokonoe has left

  100. kokonoe has joined

  101. lskdjf has joined

  102. lskdjf has joined

  103. jjrh has left

  104. jjrh has joined

  105. ThibG has joined

  106. Half-ShotX has left

  107. Half-ShotX has joined

  108. jjrh has left

  109. jjrh has joined

  110. Guus has left

  111. Guus has joined

  112. Guus has left

  113. Half-ShotX has left

  114. Half-ShotX has joined

  115. efrit has left

  116. Half-ShotX has left

  117. Half-ShotX has joined

  118. Guus has joined

  119. Half-ShotX has left

  120. Half-ShotX has joined

  121. Half-ShotX has left

  122. Half-ShotX has joined

  123. Half-ShotX has left

  124. Half-ShotX has joined

  125. lskdjf has joined

  126. ThibG has joined

  127. l has joined

  128. jjrh has left

  129. waqas has left

  130. Half-ShotX has left

  131. Half-ShotX has joined

  132. labdsf has left

  133. labdsf has joined

  134. Half-ShotX has left

  135. Half-ShotX has joined

  136. jjrh has joined

  137. Half-ShotX has left

  138. Half-ShotX has joined

  139. Guus has left

  140. Guus has joined

  141. jjrh has left

  142. Half-ShotX has left

  143. Half-ShotX has joined

  144. Guus has left

  145. jjrh has joined

  146. jjrh has left

  147. jjrh has joined

  148. Guus has joined

  149. Half-ShotX has left

  150. Half-ShotX has joined

  151. jjrh has left

  152. jjrh has joined

  153. equil has left

  154. Half-ShotX has left

  155. Half-ShotX has joined

  156. pep. has joined

  157. Guus has left

  158. Guus has joined

  159. Guus has left

  160. Guus has joined

  161. Half-ShotX has left

  162. Half-ShotX has joined

  163. Half-ShotX has left

  164. Half-ShotX has joined

  165. Half-ShotX has left

  166. Half-ShotX has joined

  167. Guus has left

  168. Guus has joined

  169. Guus has left

  170. Guus has joined

  171. Half-ShotX has left

  172. Half-ShotX has joined

  173. 404.city has joined

  174. Half-ShotX has left

  175. Half-ShotX has joined

  176. Half-ShotX has left

  177. Half-ShotX has joined

  178. Guus has left

  179. Guus has joined

  180. Guus has left

  181. krauq has left

  182. Guus has joined

  183. Guus has left

  184. Nekit has joined

  185. Half-ShotX has left

  186. Half-ShotX has joined

  187. Guus has joined

  188. lorddavidiii has joined

  189. moparisthebest has joined

  190. moparisthebest has joined

  191. Half-ShotX has left

  192. Half-ShotX has joined

  193. Half-ShotX has left

  194. Half-ShotX has joined

  195. Guus has left

  196. Guus has joined

  197. Guus has left

  198. Guus has joined

  199. Guus has left

  200. Half-ShotX has left

  201. Half-ShotX has joined

  202. vaulor has joined

  203. Guus has joined

  204. Guus has left

  205. Guus has joined

  206. lorddavidiii has left

  207. Half-ShotX has left

  208. Half-ShotX has joined

  209. Half-ShotX has left

  210. Half-ShotX has joined

  211. goffi has joined

  212. Half-ShotX has left

  213. Half-ShotX has joined

  214. jjrh has left

  215. jjrh has joined

  216. lorddavidiii has joined

  217. kokonoe has left

  218. jjrh has left

  219. jjrh has joined

  220. vaulor has left

  221. vaulor has joined

  222. lnj has joined

  223. kokonoe has joined

  224. lorddavidiii has left

  225. goffi has joined

  226. Half-ShotX has left

  227. Half-ShotX has joined

  228. lorddavidiii has joined

  229. jjrh has left

  230. jjrh has joined

  231. 404.city has left

  232. Half-ShotX has left

  233. Half-ShotX has joined

  234. jjrh has left

  235. jjrh has joined

  236. jjrh has left

  237. jjrh has joined

  238. Yagiza has joined

  239. Half-ShotX has left

  240. Half-ShotX has joined

  241. Guus has left

  242. Guus has joined

  243. Guus has left

  244. Half-ShotX has left

  245. Half-ShotX has joined

  246. jjrh has left

  247. jjrh has joined

  248. jjrh has left

  249. jjrh has joined

  250. jjrh has left

  251. jjrh has joined

  252. jjrh has left

  253. jjrh has joined

  254. jjrh has left

  255. jjrh has joined

  256. Zash has left

  257. jjrh has left

  258. jjrh has joined

  259. Half-ShotX has left

  260. Half-ShotX has joined

  261. Zash has left

  262. Half-ShotX has left

  263. Half-ShotX has joined

  264. rion has left

  265. rion has joined

  266. jjrh has left

  267. jjrh has joined

  268. Half-ShotX has left

  269. Half-ShotX has joined

  270. jmpman has joined

  271. Tobias has joined

  272. Zash has left

  273. rion has left

  274. rion has joined

  275. Half-ShotX has left

  276. Half-ShotX has joined

  277. Guus has joined

  278. moparisthebest has joined

  279. moparisthebest has joined

  280. dwd has left

  281. kokonoe has left

  282. jjrh has left

  283. jjrh has joined

  284. Half-ShotX has left

  285. Half-ShotX has joined

  286. kokonoe has joined

  287. dwd has left

  288. Half-ShotX has left

  289. Half-ShotX has joined

  290. labdsf has left

  291. Guus has left

  292. Guus has joined

  293. Half-ShotX has left

  294. Half-ShotX has joined

  295. Guus has left

  296. lnj has left

  297. lovetox has joined

  298. j.r has joined

  299. intosi has left

  300. ta has left

  301. Half-ShotX has left

  302. Half-ShotX has joined

  303. mrDoctorWho has joined

  304. dwd has left

  305. j.r has joined

  306. remko has joined

  307. remko has left

  308. remko has joined

  309. Syndace has left

  310. Half-ShotX has left

  311. Half-ShotX has joined

  312. Syndace has left

  313. Maranda has joined

  314. Half-ShotX has left

  315. Guus has joined

  316. intosi has left

  317. Half-ShotX has joined

  318. Half-ShotX has left

  319. lorddavidiii has left

  320. winfried has joined

  321. winfried has joined

  322. Seve has left

  323. jmpman has joined

  324. Half-ShotX has joined

  325. jjrh has left

  326. jjrh has joined

  327. intosi has left

  328. Guus has left

  329. Guus has joined

  330. Half-ShotX has left

  331. Guus has left

  332. jjrh has left

  333. Half-ShotX has joined

  334. jjrh has joined

  335. goffi has joined

  336. Guus has joined

  337. Half-ShotX has left

  338. mimi89999 has joined

  339. lnj has joined

  340. Half-ShotX has joined

  341. Half-ShotX has left

  342. vaulor has left

  343. j.r has joined

  344. Half-ShotX has joined

  345. j.r has joined

  346. thorsten has left

  347. goffi has joined

  348. flow has left

  349. flow has joined

  350. thorsten has joined

  351. flow has left

  352. flow has joined

  353. Half-ShotX has left

  354. Half-ShotX has joined

  355. Guus has left

  356. Guus has joined

  357. krauq has left

  358. lovetox has left

  359. ThibG has joined

  360. ThibG has joined

  361. Half-ShotX has left

  362. flow has left

  363. flow has joined

  364. Guus has left

  365. Half-ShotX has joined

  366. 404.city has joined

  367. architekt has joined

  368. dwd has left

  369. sezuan has left

  370. remko has left

  371. architekt has left

  372. Half-ShotX has left

  373. architekt has joined

  374. goffi has joined

  375. Half-ShotX has joined

  376. kokonoe has left

  377. Guus has joined

  378. winfried has joined

  379. winfried has joined

  380. kokonoe has joined

  381. winfried has joined

  382. winfried has joined

  383. moparisthebest has joined

  384. moparisthebest has joined

  385. Half-ShotX has left

  386. Half-ShotX has joined

  387. Half-ShotX has left

  388. winfried has joined

  389. winfried has joined

  390. UsL has left

  391. architekt has left

  392. architekt has joined

  393. Yagiza has left

  394. goffi has joined

  395. Half-ShotX has joined

  396. pep. has joined

  397. jjrh has left

  398. jjrh has joined

  399. marc_ has joined

  400. Half-ShotX has left

  401. jjrh has left

  402. jjrh has joined

  403. flow has left

  404. flow has joined

  405. labdsf has joined

  406. equil has left

  407. architekt has left

  408. architekt has joined

  409. MattJ has joined

  410. Guus has left

  411. Guus has joined

  412. Half-ShotX has joined

  413. Zash has left

  414. architekt has left

  415. Half-ShotX has left

  416. Guus has left

  417. architekt has joined

  418. goffi has left

  419. architekt has left

  420. igoose has left

  421. igoose has joined

  422. Half-ShotX has joined

  423. equil has joined

  424. Half-ShotX has left

  425. goffi has joined

  426. labdsf has left

  427. Half-ShotX has joined

  428. architekt has joined

  429. flow has left

  430. flow has joined

  431. goffi has joined

  432. architekt has left

  433. 404.city has left

  434. j.r has left

  435. Half-ShotX has left

  436. Half-ShotX has joined

  437. j.r has joined

  438. Half-ShotX has left

  439. winfried has joined

  440. winfried has joined

  441. Guus has joined

  442. Syndace has left

  443. jjrh has left

  444. jjrh has joined

  445. vaulor has joined

  446. Half-ShotX has joined

  447. Guus has left

  448. Guus has joined

  449. labdsf has joined

  450. Zash has left

  451. Half-ShotX has left

  452. flow has left

  453. Guus has left

  454. flow has joined

  455. Guus has joined

  456. Half-ShotX has joined

  457. 404.city has joined

  458. moparisthebest has joined

  459. pep. has joined

  460. moparisthebest has joined

  461. Zash has left

  462. 404.city has left

  463. Guus has left

  464. Half-ShotX has left

  465. Half-ShotX has joined

  466. ThibG has joined

  467. ThibG has joined

  468. Half-ShotX has left

  469. jjrh has left

  470. jjrh has joined

  471. goffi has joined

  472. winfried has joined

  473. jjrh has left

  474. jjrh has joined

  475. Zash has joined

  476. rion has left

  477. jjrh has left

  478. jjrh has joined

  479. jjrh has left

  480. jjrh has joined

  481. Half-ShotX has joined

  482. rtq3 has joined

  483. remko has joined

  484. Half-ShotX has left

  485. l has joined

  486. l has left

  487. jjrh has left

  488. jjrh has joined

  489. jjrh has left

  490. jjrh has joined

  491. lnj has left

  492. Half-ShotX has joined

  493. l has joined

  494. Zash has left

  495. Zash has joined

  496. rtq3 has left

  497. tux has joined

  498. rtq3 has joined

  499. j.r has joined

  500. goffi has joined

  501. ta has left

  502. jjrh has left

  503. jjrh has joined

  504. j.r has joined

  505. Half-ShotX has left

  506. kokonoe has left

  507. winfried has joined

  508. kokonoe has joined

  509. goffi has joined

  510. goffi has joined

  511. Half-ShotX has joined

  512. wurstsalat has joined

  513. jjrh has left

  514. thorsten has left

  515. jjrh has joined

  516. thorsten has joined

  517. intosi has left

  518. Half-ShotX has left

  519. Half-ShotX has joined

  520. Zash has left

  521. 404.city has joined

  522. labdsf has left

  523. j.r has joined

  524. Zash has joined

  525. j.r has joined

  526. Zash has left

  527. Half-ShotX has left

  528. vanitasvitae has left

  529. labdsf has joined

  530. Zash has joined

  531. Half-ShotX has joined

  532. Half-ShotX has left

  533. winfried has left

  534. Zash has left

  535. j.r has joined

  536. jjrh has left

  537. jjrh has joined

  538. labdsf has left

  539. vanitasvitae has joined

  540. vaulor has left

  541. vaulor has joined

  542. vaulor has left

  543. vaulor has joined

  544. moparisthebest has joined

  545. ta has left

  546. moparisthebest has joined

  547. flow has left

  548. flow has joined

  549. flow has left

  550. pep. has joined

  551. flow has joined

  552. goffi has joined

  553. vanitasvitae has left

  554. jjrh has left

  555. jjrh has joined

  556. jjrh has left

  557. jjrh has joined

  558. Guus has joined

  559. jjrh has left

  560. jjrh has joined

  561. jjrh has left

  562. jjrh has joined

  563. rtq3 has left

  564. frainz has left

  565. rtq3 has joined

  566. frainz has joined

  567. Guus has left

  568. Guus has joined

  569. labdsf has joined

  570. lskdjf has joined

  571. jjrh has left

  572. jjrh has joined

  573. Guus has left

  574. j.r has joined

  575. Guus has joined

  576. UsL has joined

  577. labdsf has left

  578. rtq3 has left

  579. goffi has joined

  580. goffi has joined

  581. rtq3 has joined

  582. dwd has left

  583. kokonoe has left

  584. kokonoe has left

  585. Guus has left

  586. Guus has joined

  587. Zash has left

  588. mrDoctorWho has joined

  589. vanitasvitae has joined

  590. kokonoe has left

  591. Guus has left

  592. kokonoe has left

  593. labdsf has joined

  594. kokonoe has left

  595. alexis has joined

  596. labdsf has left

  597. alexis has joined

  598. labdsf has joined

  599. equil has left

  600. equil has joined

  601. dwd has left

  602. kokonoe has left

  603. moparisthebest has joined

  604. alexis has left

  605. ta has joined

  606. winfried has joined

  607. waqas has joined

  608. Guus has joined

  609. winfried has joined

  610. mimi89999 has joined

  611. j.r has left

  612. flow has left

  613. j.r has joined

  614. thorsten has left

  615. labdsf has left

  616. equil has left

  617. equil has joined

  618. labdsf has joined

  619. thorsten has joined

  620. mimi89999 has joined

  621. goffi has joined

  622. dwd has left

  623. jjrh has left

  624. jjrh has joined

  625. Maranda has joined

  626. tux has joined

  627. 404.city has left

  628. jjrh has left

  629. jjrh has joined

  630. 404.city has joined

  631. dwd has left

  632. winfried has joined

  633. frainz has joined

  634. efrit has joined

  635. goffi has left

  636. labdsf has joined

  637. goffi has joined

  638. Syndace has left

  639. Syndace has joined

  640. dwd has left

  641. j.r has joined

  642. labdsf has left

  643. jjrh has left

  644. jjrh has joined

  645. labdsf has joined

  646. jjrh has left

  647. jjrh has joined

  648. dwd has left

  649. jjrh has left

  650. rtq3 has left

  651. rtq3 has joined

  652. jjrh has joined

  653. jjrh has left

  654. jjrh has joined

  655. winfried has joined

  656. labdsf has left

  657. labdsf has joined

  658. remko has left

  659. !xsf_Martin has joined

  660. Maranda has joined

  661. Maranda has joined

  662. jjrh has left

  663. jjrh has joined

  664. jjrh has left

  665. jjrh has joined

  666. !xsf_Martin has left

  667. dwd has left

  668. rtq3 has left

  669. rtq3 has joined

  670. 404.city

    intosi, Kev, MattJ, ralphm Could replace the link on the page https://xmpp.org/getting-started/ Replace the link https://list.jabber.at/ to https://compliance.conversations.im/

  671. ralphm

    We're cleaning up at FOSDEM. Please file a PR.

  672. ralphm


  673. dwd has left

  674. j.r has joined

  675. lovetox has joined

  676. mimi89999 has left

  677. kokonoe has left

  678. flow has left

  679. flow has left

  680. remko has joined

  681. Ge0rG

    404.city: those lists are not the same. Also: why?

  682. Link Mauve has joined

  683. equil has left

  684. Zash has left

  685. dwd has left

  686. lorddavidiii has joined

  687. 404.city

    Ge0rG, The new catalog is better than the old

  688. architekt has joined

  689. Zash has joined

  690. dwd has left

  691. andrey.g has left

  692. architekt has left

  693. architekt has joined

  694. andrey.g has joined

  695. pep.

    The compliance tester is not a catalogue

  696. 404.city

    intosi, Kev MattJ ralphm the file https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/517

  697. pep.

    It's a compliance tester

  698. pep.

    Just like it says in the name

  699. 404.city

    pep., This is an independent directory. Anyone can add your server. Users can watch server features

  700. pep.

    Yes I know what the compliance tester is, thanks

  701. jonas’

    I don’t think we should promote a listing which ranks servers by arbitrary criteria

  702. pep.

    Well any criteria is not going to be good enough for the next person. I don't think xmpp.org should point to a list at all imho

  703. rtq3 has left

  704. rtq3 has joined

  705. jonas’

    a listing which is sorted alphabetically as an entry point is probably okay

  706. 404.city

    jonas’ I agree with you. Criteria for adding a server to the list.jabber.at - the server is liked by admin jabber.at. The reasons for removing the server do not like admin jabber.at.

  707. goffi has joined

  708. pep.

    How is the compliance tester better. You're sorted by arbitrary criteria as well. As in, it's often not useful to check all the boxes, and those who do might actually not, even.

  709. labdsf has joined

  710. Link Mauve has joined

  711. equil has joined

  712. wurstsalat has joined

  713. remko has left

  714. valo has left

  715. 404.city

    pep., The fact that this list is independent. Anyone can add your server

  716. labdsf has joined

  717. moparisthebest has joined

  718. Zash

    Doesn't that apply to both?

  719. 404.city

    Zash, I was banned by the admin list.jabber.at

  720. remko has joined

  721. pep.

    404.city: I don't think that's what you want for users anyway. I'd like an opinionated list with clear criteria (even if it's "the maintainer of the list has to know the server operator")

  722. 404.city

    Zash, He directly said who I want to add and add. Who I want and delete

  723. pep.

    That's why I don't think xmpp.org is a good venue

  724. Ge0rG

    404.city [18:49]: > Zash, I was banned by the admin list.jabber.at What was the reason?

  725. pep.

    404.city: tbh, judging by your latest actions I'm not really surprised, but heh

  726. mati has joined

  727. 404.city

    pep., Personal conflicts should not affect the addition or removal from the list represented by XMPP.ORG

  728. Ge0rG

    404.city: was that before or after you blocked s2s with them?

  729. 404.city

    Ge0rG, I just want an independent server list

  730. Zash

    Make your own

  731. Ge0rG

    404.city: we all want one. But nobody so far invested the time to maintain an objective list.

  732. Zash

    Both those lists are independent. Both could ban you for any reason.

  733. 404.city

    Users go to the site xmpp.org

  734. Zash

    Neither are affiliated with xmpp.org

  735. mati

    *sigh* so what does this guy want here?

  736. Zash

    This kind of thing is why XSF people might be reluctant to host a list or even link to one at all.

  737. pep.

    I'm all for removing that from xmpp.org. That would also prevent horrors like listing pidgin in the client list. But then 404.city, you can only blame yourself for getting removed from that list.

  738. 404.city

    mati, I want an independent server list

  739. pep.

    Well that's what the jabber.at list is?

  740. mati

    pep., I guess he doesn't like the way it's independent

  741. Zash has left

  742. pep.

    You mean you want a list officially promoted where you appear

  743. mati

    Disclaimer: I run that list.

  744. pep.

    404.city: why do you want users that bad, I guess you should answer that first

  745. Ge0rG

    There was a similar debacle about the get-started list some months ago

  746. Ge0rG

    404.city: you were told back then that you need to gain some trust with the community. This is not how to do it

  747. lskdjf has joined

  748. 404.city

    mati, I don’t like that XMPP.ORG offers a list of servers with a bad update and deletion of servers according to personal preferences of the admin jabber.at

  749. pep.

    404.city: please define independent then

  750. 404.city

    Ge0rG, I will not forgive add my server. I will forgive add freedom server list

  751. valo has joined

  752. dwd has left

  753. Ge0rG

    > 404.city: was that before or after you blocked s2s with them? Still interested in that

  754. Ge0rG


  755. mati

    Ge0rG, I removed the server, before he blocked s2s connections.

  756. equil has joined

  757. krauq has joined

  758. moparisthebest

    Not knowing much about this, seems to me a list with clear, checkable criteria anyone can double check independently, that any server can be added to would ALWAYS be better than one where 1 person/group chose manually?

  759. mati

    it's a list of XMPP servers that are usable and that I (or you, or anyone) can tell others to use. It has been around for almost 10 years. It tests SRV records, etc, and homepages are actually visited manually be me to check if they contain meaningful information.

  760. moparisthebest

    I'd vote replace the link with such a list, or remove the link

  761. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: would you assist your vote by creating and maintaining that list?

  762. mati

    All that is clearly documented when you add the server. If something isn't right, the site gives feedback.

  763. dwd has left

  764. 404.city

    mati, You deleted the server 404 because you didn’t like my position

  765. moparisthebest

    Ge0rG: uh no, that's the whole point, no one should be in charge of maintaining it

  766. moparisthebest

    Sounds accept unlimited arbitrary submissions and check them against a defined criteria with code

  767. mati

    And I personally wouldn't tell anyone to use a server where your account could get banned just because the admin finds out that you have this or that opinion on XMPP.

  768. moparisthebest

    It's the only fair/impartial way

  769. 404.city

    mati, 404 is a technically good server and a good privacy policy.

  770. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: somebody needs to write the code and run the site. We hardly have the resources to keep xmpp.net online

  771. moparisthebest

    Ge0rG: well isn't that just the compliance tester?

  772. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: compliant to what?

  773. mati

    Ge0rG, moparisthebest, I should note that my list code is actually on github, but it's pretty old already and definetly needs some love.

  774. moparisthebest

    The criteria the code checks for

  775. 404.city

    mati, I blocked the your user for manual spam. You just blocked me

  776. moparisthebest

    I'm just saying if the xsf is supposed to be impartial it should link to an impartial list with exact criteria defined by code or no list at all

  777. Ge0rG

    404.city: you blocked the user or the whole domain?

  778. 404.city

    mati, Do you like or dislike the server is the criteria unworthy of XMPP.ORG!

  779. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, you can’t solve social problem with technical solutions.

  780. moparisthebest

    If anyone can remove a server from the list for non technical reasons it's not impartial, and shouldn't be supported by xsf

  781. moparisthebest

    The xsf explicitly doesn't solve social problems I thought

  782. Zash

    moparisthebest: an xmpp service is not a purely technical thing

  783. 404.city

    Ge0rG, I blocked only the user in the conference. I complained to the admin jabber.at about his user, but did not manage to describe the complaint.

  784. moparisthebest

    I think that's all you can grade impartially though

  785. moparisthebest

    Otherwise you get into endlessly hairy situations

  786. moparisthebest

    Like this one

  787. mimi89999 has joined

  788. rtq3 has left

  789. rtq3 has joined

  790. Guus

    The getting started page is there to help people get started. The jabber.at list has info on signing up with many of the listed domains. The compliance checker is great software, but does not really help novice users.

  791. 404.city

    moparisthebest, Better to let jabber.at remove you from list, if c jabber.at is spamming?

  792. 404.city


  793. Guus

    Emphasis on novice.

  794. moparisthebest

    Guus: either the xsf is impartial and needs to link to an entirely impartial list or no list at all, or it's partial and should maintain it's own partial list

  795. moparisthebest

    In my opinion of course

  796. 404.city

    moparisthebest, Now beginners prefer to use https://compliance.conversations.im/

  797. moparisthebest

    I don't actually care about particulars of this case, I don't care if a server was removed because it broke local laws, either way that means it's not impartial

  798. 404.city

    moparisthebest, I support your opinion

  799. moparisthebest

    Hell we list Pidgin when we all agree that's a terrible idea, but somehow it's ok to have an arbitrary King of servers... Pretty inconsistent...

  800. Link Mauve

    404.city, do you have a public list of bannable behaviours from users on your server?

  801. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: except we should remove pidgin from the list

  802. Zash

    moparisthebest: Pidgin is a great example of what happens if you have technical criteria.

  803. Link Mauve

    MattJ, did you manage to get in touch with the Pidgin guys at FOSDEM?

  804. Zash

    Link Mauve: There were Pidgin people at FOSDEM?

  805. Guus

    moparisthebest: I hear you, but maintaining a list of our own would require more resources that we have available. The current list is the next best thing as far as I'm concerned. (Happy to add more lists btw). Not providing any list would defeat the purpose of having a getting started page.

  806. mati

    moparisthebest, so just so I get this straight: If an XMPP server illegally sells all private data and chats to an advertising company, it should not be removed from a list, because that wouldn't be impartial?

  807. Link Mauve

    Zash, apparently there was one person who wrote some patches at some point.

  808. Link Mauve

    Hmm, by that metric I would count too. :x

  809. moparisthebest

    Zash: right, but the choice is technical criteria (impartial) or being partial, I don't see a third option

  810. Zash

    moparisthebest: There's no choice, you can't be impartial

  811. moparisthebest

    I'm fine either way actually, I just dislike saying we are impartial if we are not

  812. mati

    I btw. also (like Guus) advocate that other lists are added there too. I'm happy that my list is there, but I see no reason why conversations.im shouldn't be there too

  813. Zash

    All you can do is pretend that you're impartial when you're defining the criteria

  814. mati

    and if 404.city makes a list, then add his list too, please.

  815. Zash

    How about everyone makes their own list, and then everyone makes lists of lists, and then the XSF lists those lists

  816. labdsf has joined

  817. moparisthebest

    mati: right if an server also required users to overthrow the govt of France and worship the admin as a God you still can't remove it if you are impartial

  818. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, being neutral doesn’t mean being impartial.

  819. Guus

    The compliance checker is not suitable for a 'getting started' kind of user (it is way to technical), which is why it is not linked on that page. I love that checker though, but it serves another purpose.

  820. Link Mauve

    If some specific software or service is actively being harmful, there is no issue with removing it.

  821. Link Mauve

    Hmm, actually banning those is still being impartial, they did something you consider not fitting with your goals, and remove advertisement for them.

  822. Zash

    Guus: It's being used for that already. Everyone loves collecting all the green checkmarks

  823. moparisthebest

    Link Mauve: IF that's one of the criteria sure

  824. Guus

    Zash: sure, but not by people that don't really know what XMPP is and need to figure out how to register an account.

  825. Link Mauve

    I don’t see much contentious issue with that.

  826. moparisthebest

    Public criteria

  827. 404.city

    Terms of use 404.city Any illegal activity is prohibited. Illegal activities are not protected by a privacy policy - It is forbidden to send spam. Prohibited intrusive advertising other messengers (Telegram, Matrix, etc)

  828. moparisthebest


  829. Guus

    Zash: aka my mum.

  830. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, so better start documenting those.

  831. Zash

    Guus: Everyone knows that more green == more better

  832. moparisthebest

    Link Mauve: that's why I like compliance tester or similar, it's already documented with code

  833. wurstsalat


  834. Guus

    Zash: sure, but the compliance checker list does not link to pages that explain how to register at a particular service. The jabber.at list does.

  835. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, that doesn’t take any of the social issues into account.

  836. Link Mauve

    But please make a compliance tester for clients, so we can stop advertising Pidgin on this merit alone.

  837. Zash

    Guus: Indeed, but doesn't the compliance checker check for IBR? Then you just type the domain into your client and It Just Works. (Not saying this is good)

  838. mati

    I thought most servers have disabled IBR nowadays.

  839. Guus

    Zash: I don't think that the intended audience for the getting started page understand that.

  840. rtq3 has left

  841. rtq3 has joined

  842. Zash

    Guus: Probably not. I don't think it stops them if they have a client that supports IBR.

  843. Link Mauve

    mati, IBR is kind of mandatory for novice users.

  844. Guus

    Zash: I assume IBR is mostly disabled?

  845. 404.city

    I would prefer that the lists of servers be created by the code, and not by the admin jabber.at. Admin jabber.at is biased and censored, not respecting the policies "term of use" of other servers

  846. Guus

    To cold to type on mobile phone further. Need to find next train.

  847. Guus


  848. MattJ

    Link Mauve [19:28]: > MattJ, did you manage to get in touch with the Pidgin guys at FOSDEM? Sadly not

  849. Link Mauve


  850. moparisthebest

    Social aspects are useless anyway... Like 404.city says he bans illegal activity, what does that even mean???

  851. moparisthebest

    Illegal where, for whom

  852. Ge0rG

    404.city: so you demand all other service admins to follow your own terms of service now?

  853. Ge0rG now could add "Do not be an asshole" to his ToS and block 404.city?

  854. moparisthebest

    Even something like "overthrowing govts" is something like France wouldn't like to happen there but would like to happen in Venezuela, useless

  855. moparisthebest

    Xsf should focus on the technical side only in my opinion

  856. Zash

    Guus: I wouldn't assume that everyone disables IBR. I think it allows for good UX. It might be common however for it to simply be a redirect to a website.

  857. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, we would like that to happen in France though. :p

  858. moparisthebest

    Lol well right

  859. moparisthebest

    That's basically my point

  860. wurstsalat has joined

  861. Ge0rG

    Guus, Zash: I have IBR enabled on yax.im and there are almost zero spam bots

  862. Link Mauve

    When coming back from FOSDEM, I saw a sign saying “the old regime must fall — the people” written on the train. ^^

  863. Zash

    mati: ^ also

  864. Link Mauve

    I also have IBR enabled on jabber.fr and most spam bots are identified and dealt with.

  865. Zash

    IBR is fine if the service admin is being responsible

  866. alameyo has joined

  867. pep.

    moparisthebest: it's all about social issues, I don't think there is such a thing as impartial. In the end somebody will make a (biased?) decision that others will disagree with.. Even if it's somewhat in line with published ToS

  868. moparisthebest

    pep.: Then IMHO xsf should remove the link or quit claiming to be impartial

  869. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, is the goal to make the website as useless as possible?

  870. Ge0rG

    Link Mauve: apparently ye.

  871. Ge0rG

    Link Mauve: apparently yes

  872. waqas

    Impartiality >> Usefulness, no? I thought that was in the bylaws somewhere

  873. moparisthebest

    Or say we are partial and elect a king of the list Link Mauve

  874. Link Mauve

    Can we then delegate handling of the xmpp.org domain to the XDF (provisional name)?

  875. Link Mauve

    I feel like having it being useful is way more useful than it being impartial.

  876. Link Mauve

    But I may be partial.

  877. moparisthebest

    Or maybe the board gets to vote on servers now

  878. moparisthebest

    I'm ok with basically anything but the current situation of saying "we are impartial, but the servers we recommend are curated by someone we don't know and have no control over" that seems wrong

  879. moparisthebest

    Stop saying we are impartial, stop linking to that list, or make an impartial list

  880. moparisthebest

    Or stop saying we are impartial and come up with a fair process to curate a list

  881. pep.

    Link Mauve: I'm sure it doesn't have to be impartial, it's of course biased. And yeah I'd remove that from xmpp.org and use another more adapted venue

  882. moparisthebest

    That's the hardest though

  883. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, a list of servers will always be incomplete, that prevents it from being fully impartial already so… Why?

  884. moparisthebest

    Not if anyone can submit to it

  885. Link Mauve

    You’re already heavily biaised towards servers which advertise themselves, which have admins speaking English, which know about xmpp.org, etc.

  886. Link Mauve

    You’re already heavily biaised towards servers which advertise themselves, which have admins speaking English, who know about xmpp.org, etc.

  887. Guus

    Found warm train. 😁

  888. Link Mauve

    Found warm home already. ^^

  889. waqas

    Link Mauve: There's also a bias towards XMPP servers

  890. Guus

    I think this is being pulled out of proportion, tbh.

  891. Link Mauve

    waqas, yes, and public ones at that!

  892. moparisthebest

    Pull requests accepted, translations accepted, problems solved

  893. Guus

    I don't see an issue with retaining the jabber.at list, and would add more. I'm not convinced that the compliance checker is a suitable list for that page.

  894. Guus

    > Found warm home already. ^^ Lucky bastard 😉

  895. Link Mauve

    Guus, +1.

  896. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, this is quite fallacious tbh.

  897. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest [19:50]: > Stop saying we are impartial, stop linking to that list, or make an impartial list Linking to an external list is different from maintaining a list

  898. Ge0rG

    We don't have a mandate to only link to impartial sites

  899. rtq3 has left

  900. Ge0rG

    Otherwise we'd have to remove all external links

  901. architekt has joined

  902. rtq3 has joined

  903. moparisthebest

    Great can we remove Pidgin then

  904. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: I wish we could

  905. moparisthebest

    Since we are partial and most of us want it removed

  906. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: send a PR

  907. pep.

    You mean another one :)

  908. Ge0rG

    I hated the addition too, because it harms us all, in my opinion. But I'm not on board, so it's not my decision

  909. 404.city has joined

  910. Ge0rG

    (and yes, I brought that up with Board)

  911. 404.city

    Ge0rG, No, I do not require other servers to follow the rules of 404. I will forgive an independent list of servers on xmpp.org. I don't want admin jabber.at to decide which servers XFS recommends!

  912. vanitasvitae

    Crazy idea: instead of pointing to a list of servers, where the top 10 grow untik they have to close registrations, why not invest energy into sites like yubohost which tell users how to setup and selfhost their own servers easily and *properly*?

  913. pep.

    We need both. Most users will never do that

  914. moparisthebest

    yunohost* presumably

  915. Link Mauve

    vanitasvitae, it’s a significantly higher barrier of entry.

  916. alameyo has left

  917. Link Mauve

    Also, most people who can do that already have a server running which can install an XMPP server in an easier way.

  918. vanitasvitae

    Surely, but having mlre servers is not a bad thing

  919. moparisthebest

    I agree though, my mom happily uses my xmpp server, she'd never in a million years set one up

  920. pep.

    "Guus> I don't see an issue with retaining the jabber.at list, and would add more.", then people are going to complain about the order in which your present these lists :p

  921. Zash

    vanitasvitae: 👍

  922. moparisthebest

    pep.: random order of course :)

  923. alameyo has joined

  924. Ge0rG

    pep.: people are going to complain.

  925. pep.

    vanitasvitae: mlre?

  926. pep.

    Ge0rG: yes, that's my point

  927. vanitasvitae

    > vanitasvitae: mlre? What does that mean? :D

  928. Ge0rG

    404.city: the XSF recommends a list, not servers. There is currently one well maintained list out there.

  929. moparisthebest

    I think he's asking what mlre means

  930. moparisthebest

    I haven't heard that either

  931. Ge0rG

    I think it means "more"

  932. moparisthebest

    Lol too used to acronyms...

  933. vanitasvitae


  934. vanitasvitae

    Ah yeah sorry I meant more servers

  935. vanitasvitae

    I mean, thats the basis of federation.

  936. 404.city

    Ge0rG, List list.jabber.at closed list. Adding to this list depends on one person. This is a biased list

  937. 404.city

    Ge0rG, XFS should not be a place where one person decides which servers to recommend.

  938. moparisthebest

    I think we've beat the horse enough 404.city , put in a pr linking to another list in addition, and a note saying these lists are not impartial

  939. 404.city

    I hope to see a freedom community XFS.

  940. moparisthebest

    I prefer BTRFS

  941. rtq3 has left

  942. rtq3 has joined

  943. vanitasvitae

    > I prefer BTRFS 😅

  944. rtq3 has left

  945. rtq3 has joined

  946. Guus

    Guys, I loves the summit & our FOSDEM participation!

  947. Guus

    Thanks everyone, especially those brave enough the get up on the stage to spread the word! 😉

  948. ralphm has joined

  949. ralphm has joined

  950. dwd has left

  951. dwd has left

  952. ralphm


  953. 404.city

    mati Ge0rG Can I install the server of the matrix and go to your conferences, offering to abandon your servers? Then you will understand my thoughts... I’ll sign up for jabber.at server to have it delete you if you try to block me)

  954. 404.city

    mati This is a joke, but I expected an understanding of the problem

  955. equil has joined

  956. moparisthebest

    To be clear that's his list, he can do what he wants with it, he can ban you because you like the color yellow, I have no problem with this

  957. moparisthebest

    Only the xsf claiming to be impartial yet linking only to that list :)

  958. moparisthebest

    Anyway, we have the solution, put in a pr 404.city

  959. 404.city

    moparisthebest, I even added both lists list.jabber.at + compliance.conversations.im, let users choose what is best for them, but this was rejected

  960. valo has joined

  961. 404.city

    I think the XFS community is a closed community where new members do not respect. I am disappointed in XFS lobbying interests of old participants. I have bad english that express thoughts correctly.

  962. yomane has left

  963. waqas

    I'm not sure if there's an "XFS community", but I personally find the XMPP community to be one of the nicest to be found online. That was the attraction for me roughly a decade ago.

  964. Guus

    404.city: It must be annoying that your service is not listed, I get that. I will happily add another list (that includes you), but do not think that the compliance checker list is a good list for the Getting Started page.

  965. moparisthebest

    404.city: if I understood the consensus in here a few minutes ago, it was we can add new lists, so put in a PR to do so

  966. Alex has left

  967. mati

    Regardless of whether it's a good idea to add the compliance list there, I just want to point out again that my list is open source and anyone can host a copy.

  968. mati

    And anyone who wants to can file issues or PRs and I'm happy to improve any documentation that is surely missing

  969. dwd has left

  970. mati

    And I like to have independent lists. I'll happily add links to any other list, just like jabber.at has links to the compliance list

  971. 404.city

    Guss If I create a list where there are no preconceived addition terms, will it be added as an alternative?

  972. sezuan has left

  973. 404.city

    mati, Add back to your list 404.city

  974. mati

    Guus: thanks for your kind comments on GitHub. That helped my mood.

  975. dwd has left

  976. ralphm has joined

  977. 404.city

    mati You ruined my mood. I did not quarrel with you, you just picked it up and deleted it

  978. mimi89999 has left

  979. 404.city

    What is the point of XFS if it does not protect the rights of administrators of XMPP servers, but advertises biased lists.

  980. Link Mauve

    Storing files, I guess.

  981. Link Mauve


  982. rtq3 has left

  983. Link Mauve

    404.city, protecting your rights should be up to your country, tho.

  984. rtq3 has joined

  985. Link Mauve

    Or something similar.

  986. labdsf has joined

  987. vanitasvitae

    Can we now stop reiterating points that have already been brought up please?

  988. j.r


  989. architekt has joined

  990. pep.

    404.city: why do you want users that bad? Seriously. I'd love to have an answer to that question

  991. pep.

    404.city: why do you want users that bad? Seriously. I'd love to have an answer to that question

  992. 404.city

    vanitasvitae, Yes. I see no point in participating in XFS. If I offer a new list of impartial, he will again be rejected

  993. 404.city

    pep., I can not translate your question. Rephrase

  994. j.r

    404.city: why do you trie so hard to gain useres, pep. asked

  995. j.r


  996. sezuan has left

  997. 404.city

    j.r, I wanted to open a non-profit organization supporting the development of XMPP, decentralization, etc

  998. vanitasvitae

    Also s/trie/try

  999. j.r

    That doesn't answer the question

  1000. j.r

    > Also s/trie/try Typing on mobile xD

  1001. 404.city

    j.r, We need more users to attract investment to the opening

  1002. vanitasvitae

    You can do that without having a ton of users on yohr server

  1003. vanitasvitae

    (Which actually hurts decentralization) :D

  1004. 404.city

    vanitasvitae, This you can do. I cant. I am not from the country where it is easy to do

  1005. Guus

    For what it's worth: I acted (rejected the PRs) primarily based on motivations that I know are not universally agreed upon by the XSF members. If desired, we can bring this before the board.

  1006. Ge0rG

    404.city: so you have an undisclosed financial interest in the users? What do you offer your investors?

  1007. Ge0rG

    Guus: I wish you had rejected the pidgin pr on such grounds

  1008. Guus

    Ge0rG: let's handle one hot potato at a time 😁

  1009. 404.city

    vanitasvitae, Developing modern XMPP clients on PCs requires large investments

  1010. j.r

    Also just to say: 404.city provocatively registered @xmpp@mastodon.social as Mastodon ID... it looks a bit like an official account of the XFS or so if you see the handle first

  1011. dwd has left

  1012. Guus

    j.r: I'm guessing you did not yet finish eating your popcorn? 😆

  1013. dwd has left

  1014. j.r

    Guus: yeay

  1015. j.r

    * yea

  1016. vanitasvitae

    j.r: yeah it would be nice if that handle would be transfered over to the XSF / if the XSF would have acted earlier to be present on the fediverse.

  1017. Zash

    Or self-host it

  1018. j.r

    vanitasvitae: that's what I wanted to say...

  1019. Zash

    Or pick another server

  1020. 404.city

    j.r, We specifically did not use XMPP in the domain, although this is possible.

  1021. j.r

    404.city: I think you didn't get me

  1022. Link Mauve

    I’ve been discussing with a girl who’s writing an ActivityPub server at FOSDEM, it doesn’t sound as incompatible as I thought before, and I may try a few things with it.

  1023. vanitasvitae

    Unfortunately they dont offer popcorn on the train, so I have to fall back to kinder choco bons

  1024. vanitasvitae


  1025. labdsf has joined

  1026. 404.city

    j.r, Mastodon does not allow to change the nickname. If XFS needs my account, can I give it away or delete account

  1027. jjrh has left

  1028. jjrh has joined

  1029. j.r

    404.city: why did you registed this id?

  1030. rtq3 has left

  1031. rtq3 has joined

  1032. 404.city

    j.r I did not think about it. It is simply short for XMPP server.

  1033. j.r

    Hm ok

  1034. Guus

    > j.r, Mastodon does not allow to change the nickname. If XFS needs my account, can I give it away or delete account That's a gracious offer, thank you. If the commteam thinks having access to that account has value, then I hope they will reach out to you. Cc nyco, jcbrand, seve

  1035. Guus

    Phone battery dead! Goodnight everyone!

  1036. flow

    g'night Guus

  1037. dwd has left

  1038. rtq3 has left

  1039. flow has left

  1040. dwd has left

  1041. vanitasvitae has left

  1042. jonas’


  1043. flow has left

  1044. sezuan has left

  1045. Link Mauve

    404.city, interesting, which client(s?) are you planning to support with money raised by having users?

  1046. Link Mauve

    Also, did you discuss with the authors of these clients as for whether that’s the best course of action?

  1047. flow has left

  1048. Zash has left

  1049. sezuan has left

  1050. 404.city

    Link Mauve,I love talking about the present reality, not about dreams

  1051. 404.city has left

  1052. vanitasvitae has left

  1053. 404.city has joined

  1054. sezuan has left

  1055. dwd has left

  1056. 404.city has left

  1057. Zash has left

  1058. Tobias has joined

  1059. flow has left

  1060. dwd has left

  1061. Syndace has joined

  1062. Syndace has joined

  1063. sezuan has left

  1064. sezuan has left

  1065. sezuan has left

  1066. sezuan has left

  1067. lorddavidiii has left

  1068. vaulor has left

  1069. Seve has left

  1070. valo has joined

  1071. Seve

    j.r: What's is that account of yours? I'm missing context, sorry :)

  1072. tux has joined

  1073. rtq3 has joined

  1074. lskdjf has joined

  1075. tux has left

  1076. j.r

    Seve: you mean @xmpp@mastodon.social ?

  1077. j.r

    Or what?

  1078. rion has left

  1079. dwd has left

  1080. rtq3 has left

  1081. rtq3 has joined

  1082. rtq3 has left

  1083. rtq3 has joined

  1084. lnj has left

  1085. Tobias has joined

  1086. goffi has joined

  1087. ta has left

  1088. Tobias has joined

  1089. goffi has joined

  1090. ta has left

  1091. l has joined

  1092. flow has left

  1093. remko has left

  1094. grumpy has left

  1095. grumpy has joined

  1096. labdsf has left

  1097. dwd has left

  1098. Alex has left

  1099. labdsf has joined

  1100. lskdjf has joined

  1101. lskdjf has joined

  1102. Tobias has joined

  1103. mati has left

  1104. flow has left

  1105. Zash has left

  1106. igoose has left

  1107. labdsf has left

  1108. igoose has joined

  1109. labdsf has joined

  1110. kokonoe has left

  1111. lovetox has left

  1112. frainz has left

  1113. flow has left

  1114. frainz has joined

  1115. flow has left

  1116. ta has left

  1117. flow has left

  1118. flow has left

  1119. flow has left

  1120. flow has left

  1121. ta has left

  1122. vaulor has joined

  1123. vaulor has left

  1124. frainz has left

  1125. frainz has joined

  1126. wurstsalat

    Wow, I heard about laws for this but I didn't know this was actively enforced: https://monal.im/blog/omemo-and-french-laws/ Does anybody know since when this is the case? Any other countries? Is/was any other client's distribution affected? I'm curious!

  1127. alacer has joined

  1128. alacer has left

  1129. alacer has joined

  1130. Maranda has joined

  1131. alameyo has left

  1132. MattJ has joined

  1133. tux has joined

  1134. Maranda has joined

  1135. Maranda has joined

  1136. lumi has joined

  1137. Maranda has joined

  1138. Maranda has joined