pep.I would assume conversations had to go through the same hassle? Also Signal
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moparisthebestWow I was joking about overthrowing the French govt earlier but maybe it's time
moparisthebestIs there a way to check whether the eventually released French binaries are the same as in other countries?
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pep.I'm now wondering how it works with Linux distributions even.
moparisthebestLooks like only apple requires it
moparisthebestLike maybe everyone else should ask the French Kings permission too but just doesn't
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lovetoxThey can only enforce it if you go over some software store
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lovetoxThats the downside if most people only get software through a software store like apple or google store
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pep.What about distribution repositories
pep.(Not that I want any of this bs there, just curious)
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lovetoxpep. repositorys are like http servers, i think its too much work for a government or an agency to monitor all possible repositorys
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lovetoxits easy to make one big company follow some rules
lovetoxbecause the company wants to make money in this country
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debacleMarketing issue: Because we all love the wonderful orange hoodies sold at the summit, we talked about having an "inofficial XMPP brand colour", which more or less matches the hoodies. The XMPP logo has two tones of orange: https://www.color-hex.com/color/e96d1f and https://www.color-hex.com/color/d9541e
debacleThe former looks more "aggressive" to me than the latter. I'ld prefer that, but as most software developers, I'm not good when it comes to design and marketing stuff.
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goffidebacle: I guess this is something for the board, maybe it should be added to agenda?
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debaclegoffi, after that you need to change the colour of your SàT starfish :)
Ge0rGI'd like to have a Jabber hoodie.
jonas’talk to cisco about that
GuusGe0rG I think ralphm took them home, so you might be able to have him ship one to you.
pep.Guus, I think that was just a taunt :)
debacleJabber is only trademarked for computing and communication, right? You can have a Jabber washing powder or Jabber fashion products.
ralphmI have all the hoodies here, as well as the XSF flag that Guus has had made.
Ge0rGNo, I'm actually interested in having a Jabber hoodie.
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moparisthebestprint one?
Guus(There's another flag with Daniel, btw)
Ge0rG🤔 can do. Will I violate trademarks?
ralphmXMPP is not a trademark, as it was "invented" especially for the purpose of not being one, so that it could be used as the name of a set of protocols with the IETF.
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ralphmAnd Jabber logo is officially owned by the XSF.
moparisthebestwho cares Ge0rG , XSF is :P
moparisthebestthere is still 0 paperwork showing XSF has the right to do anything with jabber
ralphm(I.e. the bulb used for the JSF logo, not to be confused with the bulb Jabber, Inc. used)
moparisthebestthere is paperwork saying they had rights up until June of 2001 or something, but nothing saying it was extended
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ralphmmoparisthebest: ok great, and now?
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moparisthebestfind the paperwork or forget about it, in my opinion
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moparisthebestlong live XMPP, jabber can go die in a fire
ralphmThat's one viewpoint, sure.
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moparisthebesthow can a company rely on a grant of use of jabber from the XSF when nothing says the XSF has that right?
pep.I'd like to cut ties with Cisco at some point as well
moparisthebestalso, assuming the old expired agreements were extended and still in effect, a company STILL can't rely on it because the XSF has like 30 days to take legal action against trademark abuses, and the XSF doesn't have resources for that?
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moparisthebestbut we don't even get that far, because there is no such paperwork, is there?
moparisthebestwasn't last time I asked...
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: AFAIU, stpeter has the paperwork
moparisthebestthat doesn't sound like a legal defense for a company sued by cisco for using jabber
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jonas’Ge0rG, do you want to get https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/739 merged now or do you want to modify it?
jonas’moparisthebest, AFAIK, stpeter has always taken some type of action when trademark violations have been reported.
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jonas’(having reported one or another myself)
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Ge0rGjonas’: I've written another mail to standards@ regarding the still open points wrt. error conditions. Would be nice to get some feedback for that first.
jonas’when?
jonas’because I just replied to the one from tuesday
Ge0rGoh, I didn't read my private mail yet.
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jonas’what I forgot to write regarding your second point (clearly defining the error condition for "not in room"): we can have '410 advance and adapt it according to changes in '45 later, IMO
Ge0rGjonas’: Warning: The key used to create the signature expired at: Tue 12 Jul 2016 09:13:45 PM CEST
jonas’Ge0rG, gpg2 --refresh-keys
Ge0rGwhy doesn't it do that automagically?
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jonas’because privacy
Ge0rGjonas’: if I understand your remark here right, there is no need to add those things into 0410 now?
jonas’I think the former <not-in-room/> should be added to '410 right now
jonas’(and then backported to '45)
jonas’the latter (general not-in-room condition, i.e. not-acceptable vs. whatever) should be in '45, and does not need to be added to '410 right now
jonas’(former and latter refering to the order of the points made in your original email)
Ge0rGBut my former proposal uses the MUC namespace, for which I'm not an authority
jonas’that’s kinda true
jonas’I’d try it and see if it passes by council? :>
jonas’I mean you’re also using identifiers from the muc prefix for disco#info, aren’t you?
Ge0rGThat's a very subversive approach
jonas’(while obviously pointing council at it to not make it appear like you tried to smuglge something, obviously)
Ge0rGYeah, right! 😂
Ge0rGjonas’: my laptop is still busy thrashing, so I can't do any meaningful work right now.
jonas’sure
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Ge0rGCan we merge the existing changes first, and then have a separate pr for the new condition? That surely would make a better proposition for two council votes.
jonas’I am fine with that
jonas’(fwiw, I’m asking because I’m on a merge spree)
Ge0rGjonas’: engage the merge button!
jonas’so I’ll just merge it now!
jonas’it will take approx. 3h to appear on the website because there doesn’t seem a way to cancel builds in the new docker hub interface
Ge0rGIt also looks like my OOM condition is nearing its end, after I somehow managed to store a 6.5GB session file into 2GB of free disk space, and can see the "quit" button of this application already
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lovetoxhm jonas’ the xor xep is not on the server
jonas’ah, the email template is still lacking the "due to unrelated automated processes yada yada will appear soon"
jonas’(i.e.: I forgot to push that one before sending out the email)
jonas’look again in an hour
jonas’docker build takes ages
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lovetoxk thanks
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jonas’Ge0rG, gentle reminder about your on-list-ing of https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/743
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Ge0rGjonas’: I still think that the warning text isn't sufficiently bold and red and blinking
jonas’Ge0rG, maybe state that on-list then, with an official -1, so we can get the vote over with.
Ge0rGjonas’: but thanks for the reminder. I'll send a mail to the list tomorrow
jonas’:)
jonas’thank you very much
jonas’huh
jonas’
pep.jonas’, the new inbox stuff is not yet ready?
jonas’what new inbox stuff?
pep.I get 404 for XOR
jonas’yeah
pep.https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/xor.html
jonas’see above
pep.oh
jonas’should be there in 15min or so
pep.thanks
jonas’one day I’ll silently replace the nginx stuff with a reverse-proxy to a host of mine where I can do incremental builds :-X
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flowOr we ditch docker, and design the tool so that it takes the xeps repo as input and a directory for the html as output, and simply let a web server serve that directory to the world
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jonas’flow, iteam does not want to execute uncontainerised code on the server.
jonas’flow, there is already the makefile which does essentially that
flowjonas’, I know, but I don't really think that this is a good decission
flowFor the wiki, maybe
flowBut not for the editor tooling
jonas’I can see why they made that decision, and I’m not the one to overturn that.
jonas’I will complain once in a while about the 1h build times, because those are annoying big time
Ge0rGCan't we have a docker image that contains all the tools? Or do we already, and it's the XEP build that takes so long?
flowjonas’, you are the one with the most "leidensdruck" regarding that, I decided to that I don't want to get invovled with a process which I believe to be fundamentally wrong
ZashShould be doable to not do it from scratch every time?
jonas’everything which invovles not doing everything from scratch all the time requires to move away from docker hup
jonas’everything which invovles not doing everything from scratch all the time requires to move the build of the xeps away from docker hub
jonas’and that requires a machine which can do the builds
jonas’-ENOENT
flowGe0rG, why does it have to be docker? as far as I can tell, most tools is simply python. I am not sure about external dependencies, but I've been told there are other solutions for that besides docker
jonas’flow, there is one crucial tool
jonas’the toolchain which builds the PDFs
jonas’this is terrible to set up
jonas’it involves some chain of XSL, some tooling called texml I think, and latex to generate the PDFs
jonas’parts of wihch are unpackaged, I think
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flowjonas’, true, and PDFs are nice, but that could be done in docker. How many times have people asked you why a PDF is 404, vs the HTML?
jonas’I can totally see why you wouldn’t run that automatedly on any server, even if only because of the CPU load caused by a mass rebuild
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pep.flow, as a sysadmin I really understand the need for some form of container. This way iteam doesn't have to know what's going on to deploy the app, editors can do whatever they want in it
jonas’even if one split the build into HTML (on the server itself) and PDF (on dockerhub or whatever), there needs to be a way to trigger a build from github on the server, which is another thing iteam doesn’t want
flowpep., I think "just depend on stuff that is in debian stable" could be a feasible policy in this case
jonas’(also completely understandable)
flowno need to dockerize
jonas’(I’m still scared of the webhook-website-build-thing I made for another org)
pep.flow, some kind of isolation might also be desirable. If they ever want to run something unrelated to editorial things
jonas’flow, to do this totally safely, one would have to split the build tools out in a separate repository; makefile is executable code, you don’t want to have that updated automatedly on the server
flowjonas’, splitting tooling and xeps was actually what I also suggested back then
jonas’makes it more annoying to use by the editor, too
flowpep., true, but there are also solutions for that that
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jonas’I can also see why iteam wouldn’t want to maintain the code execution on the server, given that they’re all very busy folks.
jonas’I wonder whether there’s something with nginx where you can ask multiple sources for a URL. like, "try local file first, if that’s not found, try this reverse-proxied service, if that’s not found, return not found"
jonas’that could allow editors to host builds which are taken until the docker build has passed
jonas’that could allow editors to host builds which are served until the docker build has passed
flowI mean ideally editors would run the tooling locally and just sync with a remote directory that is served over http(s)
jonas’for certain definitions of "sync"
mathieuiI see the appeal into relying on the repository build and not on people syncing files on the server
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flowmathieui, does it really make a big difference between triggering the docker build vs running the tool localy? Besides the later being finished way earlier than the docker build?
jonas’flow, yes, the docker build always yields a consistent result
jonas’when multiple people do editor work and everyone syncs parts of their builds up to a server ... that’s meh
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jonas’mix into that local, uncommitted changes and it’s getting messy quick
ZashHorrible hack: Download existing files (only really need the timestamps) so the thing believes it already built the things it already built
flowjonas’, one sure could design the tool so that this shouldn't become a real world issue, i'd say
jonas’Zash, oh my god
mathieuiZash, I like it
flowhackidy hack hack
jonas’flow, not really, unless you let the tool run `git checkout . ; git clean -f`, which no automated tool should run ever.
flowjonas’, depends, if this is a repo in a shadow directory…
jonas’ugh
flowbut yeah, people have different opinions and experiences about "how to do it right"
jonas’too dangerous to write those lines in any tool, ever
flowback to bug hunting
ZashThis feels like https://xkcd.com/2044/
pep.Sometimes I wonder how much time you spend on xkcd Zash
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jonas’he just has a good memory because he doesn’t keep logs and thus has to rely on his brain, in contrast to all of us :(
ZashLogs wasn't a thing when I grew up
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pep.I just don't want to clutter my memory with logs, and logs are mostly free :p
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ZashI also never learned to take notes in school.
jonas’O_O
pep.I'm also really bad at that
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NeustradamusIt is possible to do an update of https://xmpp.org/2019/01/the-xmpp-newsletter-31-january-2018/ ?
jonas’update?
jonas’what’s missing?
pep.If it's about the url, that was discussed on the commteam channel iirc
Neustradamus2018
jonas’the URL cannot be changed anymore
jonas’it is linked to from various sources
jonas’Neustradamus, see also https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/commit/2c9f80b5bd3301f2bab5a18300146dce7b075c9d https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/commit/7862fd7c71a531e8875a0731779554b3e896aedd https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/commit/7fd06dc8f805776540add7ed0819861ef3d5b783
pep.jonas’, in hugo there's an "aliases" directives
jonas’I had lots of fun
jonas’pep., hm, aliases
jonas’I was thinking ln -s in the docker build :-X
NeustradamusBut redirection/alias...
pep.That creates a stub with <meta/>
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jonas’pelican does not seem to have any alias functionality
NeustradamusPosted by "Seve, jcbrand" -> https://xmpp.org/author/seve-jcbrand.html strange page too
pep.jonas’, hmm, how do I create a static page? Do I create a .md with html in it directly? :/
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jonas’look at how the homepage is created, essentially
jonas’it’ll be messed with by templates though
jonas’so you probably have to create your own template for that page
jonas’I think it might be easier to simply hack the symlink creation somewhere into the build process.
pep.:/
pep.It's not a symlink that we want, do we. It's a redirect
pep.So either <meta/>, either nginx
jonas’yes, a proper redirect needs to be done by a webserver
pep.I feel meta is better though
jonas’meta is never better
pep.Well.. that's an application issue
ZashAlso having they date in the slug seems redundant since it's in the path too
pep.hah, true
Zash(this is where someone says it's required because of reasons)
jonas’it isn’t, I think
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pep.https://github.com/Nitron/pelican-alias hmm.
pep.How do you feel about having one moar plugin
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NeustradamusOn https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/xor.html
No new draft information: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mile-xmpp-grid
And 2 mistakes about -> "Jabber" network
It is the XMPP network
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ZashRe XEP-0335, https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7493 might be worth looking at (ping MattJ)