XSF Discussion - 2019-02-09

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  86. MattJ

    Good morning

  87. MattJ

    I'm going to upgrade xmpp:xmpp.org, which means this room will be (hopefully briefly) unavailable, and you will need to rejoin

  88. MattJ

    Hopefully for the last time, because the next version preserves room occupants between restarts :)

  89. MattJ

    Wait. Or am I?

  90. MattJ

    Looks like an OS upgrade will be needed first

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  99. lovetox

    Do we get MAM here then?

  100. lovetox

    or at least a history that doesnt save chatstates

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  107. MattJ

    MAM is the goal, yes

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  109. lovetox

    great 😎

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  115. jonas’

    lovetox, are you confusing this room with jdev@?

  116. lovetox

    maybe, does this one not save chatstates :D

  117. jonas’

    I don’t think it does

  118. jonas’

    but I haven’t been using a non-always-on client in MUCs for a while now, so I don’t know

  119. jonas’

    okay, I’ve officially been doing too much XMPP. when I type x in my browser bar, the first suggestion is not xkcd.com anymore, but xmpp.org.

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  121. zinid

    jonas’, I keep you even more busy :) check the inbox :)

  122. jonas’

    holy smokes, I knew you were one of those russian spammers!!!! (jk)

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  124. zinid

    jonas’, haha, two more to come! (but not now)

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  126. zinid

    jonas’, this time when you find the problems with the document tell me and I will fix them prior to the Council discussion, in order not to waste their time

  127. jonas’

    zinid, okay

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  129. Ge0rG

    I have a vague feeling that the council members are on council because they like wasting their time with taking apart protocols...

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  132. zinid


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  134. zinid

    I thought they mostly take apart XSF rules :)

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  139. Ge0rG

    zinid: those are a special kind of protocol.

  140. zinid

    Ge0rG, yeah, I learnt recently SEX is also a protocol

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  142. zinid

    how is it going btw? where is the protoxep?

  143. zinid

    "how is your SEX life by the way"

  144. Ge0rG

    zinid: I haven't decided yet whether to make it a proto XEP. Need to read through OX and MLS first

  145. Ge0rG

    Also, surprisingly, some people dislike the name

  146. zinid

    ha, I told you. The wrong community. Rename to FAP.

  147. zinid

    btw, I tried to read the MLS I-D, but fell asleep after a few minutes. Really not my stuff.

  148. Maranda

    zinid, very satisfying thanks 🤣 🤣 🤣

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  156. zinid

    Maranda, hello ;)

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  158. Maranda

    Good mornin' 😸

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  250. dwd

    Wasn't SEX the thing that was "post operational transform" and could transfer an empty XML doc in only 9,000 stanzas and half a gig?

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  291. Zash

    dwd: SXE?

  292. dwd

    Oh, yes. That's the one.

  293. Zash

    What sort of amazing compression were you using to get that into half a gig?

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  325. dwd

    Zash, Good point - these days, compression isn't allowed Because Security.

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  416. pep.

    Looking at Outreachy. "FOSS communities need to have secured funding for at least one intern ($6,500)", that's.. not going to be possible?

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  418. Zash

    Somewhat out of reach for ~3 people working in their free time without any formal organization, yeah.

  419. pep.

    Ok so outreachy for diversity in this community is a no-go, unless companies can chime in maybe.

  420. Zash

    Something something discrimination against poor FOSS projects!!!!11!1eleven

  421. pep.

    Yeah, so like 90% of FOSS

  422. rion

    I'm trying to understand one thing about Jingle. For example I have got a session-initiate request. iq-from and "initiator" are different for some reason. so I send back iq ack to iq-from and then session-accept to initiator jid. What if for example I receive content-add from initiator jid as iq-from now instead of original iq-from? How should I treat it?

  423. Zash

    pep.: Tho, we could still talk to them

  424. pep.

    Do you know who to ping and how to approach them?

  425. Zash

    Not really

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  428. Zash

    pep.: "Hi, we're a bunch of FOSS projects around the open IM protocol XMPP" and invite the organizers to some event to talk about encouraging diversity in FOSS projects. Like a sprint or somesuch.

  429. Zash

    Something along those lines

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  431. pep.

    How to reuse Matrix marketing 101: https://ppjet.bouah.net/im-protocols-interop.png (I took a few liberties)

  432. Zash

    oh lawd

  433. Zash


  434. pep.

    Matthew, (please stop me if you're not the right matthew), I'm looking at the Matrix and the french state talk, and you list a set of features for the protocol, notably e2ee _and_ server-side search. How does that work?

  435. pep.

    What do you look at if your server doesn't have plain data

  436. Matthew

    the idea is that you run your own server somewhere trusted to index the data

  437. Matthew


  438. Andrew Nenakhov

    Those ee2e freaks never cease to amaze me. First they trust no one and demand end to end encryption. Them they understand that total privacy is kinda inconvenient, so they are willing to totally compromise their e2ee to have nice fearures back

  439. Matthew

    (the idea is also to run the server clientside; eg in the desktop apps, to have better control over the plaintext)

  440. Matthew

    we’re not trying to do homomorphic encryption or anything fancy

  441. pep.

    Right, so it's more of a client-side feature ish

  442. pep.

    Does the data come from the client, or is the indexer actually plugged on the network

  443. Andrew Nenakhov

    Why not run just your own server and not bother with e2ee?

  444. Matthew

    Andrew Nenakhov: because it sucks if someone pwns your server

  445. Matthew

    and servers tend to be slightly easier to pwn than endpoints

  446. pep.

    I don't actually agree with the last comment, but I do with the previous one.

  447. Zash

    Got stats on that?

  448. pep.

    And as a server admin I'd like to not be able to see my users' data

  449. Matthew

    pep.: in the linked project, the data comes from the network

  450. Matthew

    we are having second thoughts on whether that’s the right design

  451. Andrew Nenakhov

    You mean than android phones that can pe pwned with a png oic?

  452. Matthew

    zash: just common sense that it’s easier to pwn some random crappy homerun vps than an iphone

  453. pep.

    Matthew, you mean an iphone not pin-locked? :P

  454. Matthew

    also, it’s easier to find servers and they’re tend to be turned on all the time

  455. Matthew

    and they gather more data and metadata than a client

  456. Matthew


  457. Andrew Nenakhov

    > And as a server admin I'd like to not be able to see my users' data I mean, the only security threat that e2ee helps is server operators. If you are your own operator you dont need to protect against yourself

  458. Zash

    So nothing to back that up?

  459. pep.

    Andrew Nenakhov, not sure if I read your message correctly, but yeah, as a server admin I'd like not to be able to sell (give) my users' data to any government or whatever

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  462. Andrew Nenakhov

    > And as a server admin I'd like to not be able to see my users' data That's easy. Never look at it.

  463. pep.

    read my last message

  464. Andrew Nenakhov

    Oh right. Do not host servers with data from strangers.

  465. pep.

    What have strangers to do with that

  466. Zash

    Don't host servers to begin with. Or use computers! Moving into the woods and growing potatoes is the final solution to all tech problems!

  467. Andrew Nenakhov

    If you have a known people who's data might be asked for retrieval by government, you'd better not have them on your server in the first place

  468. mathieui


  469. Andrew Nenakhov

    This obsession with encryption is unhealthy. :-/

  470. Andrew Nenakhov

    If users want e2ee, fine

  471. mathieui

    people who are in trouble with their governments do not have the right to use IM?

  472. Andrew Nenakhov

    Just dont ask for server to nicely find your chats from last year by fulltext

  473. pep.

    Matthew, do you have resources describing what e2ee in matrix protects from (what goals)? or can you summarize it quickly?

  474. Andrew Nenakhov

    As a person who was visited by FSB thugs 4 times last year pressing me to have backdoors in our app... I do more than most people to protect rights of users to use IM

  475. Andrew Nenakhov

    I also know that 80-90% of e2ee users in russia are junkies

  476. Zash

    Beware selection bias :)

  477. Andrew Nenakhov

    Like, literally, junkies and their drug suppliers

  478. pep.

    So what

  479. pep.

    It's not worth giving options to the other 10%?

  480. Andrew Nenakhov

    So im allergic to e2ee demands. )) Because i have a very accurate mental image of an average user

  481. Andrew Nenakhov

    Also worth noting, that junkies are MUCH more inclined to pay for their privacy than those other 10%

  482. pep.

    I'm not denying that what I'm seeing is also crypto junkies. That doesn't mean I'm excluding legimate cases entirely, (whatever legitimate means)

  483. Matthew

    pep.: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Bv2Pf4rz62nB8omDFoolRmONmU47zIeGewJBbPeADoM

  484. pep.


  485. Matthew

    is some brief notes on matrix’s e2ee threat model from a while back

  486. Andrew Nenakhov

    Somehow these who love freedom and are offended by idea of being spied upon rarely pay. I guess that has to do with them treating e2ee as their constitutional right

  487. Andrew Nenakhov

    And noone pays for constitutional rights)

  488. Matthew

    (btw, it’s a pleasure to be having constructive xmpp<->matrix convo; bridging ftw)

  489. pep.


  490. pep.

    I know right, bridging ftw: https://ppjet.bouah.net/im-protocols-interop.png :P

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  492. Matthew

    i saw :p

  493. pep.

    Do you know a bit about OMEMO, and do you think that'd be compatible with Olm?

  494. pep.

    As in, is that even bridgable

  495. Zash

    Didn't they differ in some tiny part like IV or somesuch?

  496. pep.

    that would suck

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  501. pep.

    hmm, the certificate changes incorporated in synapse 0.99, that seems a bit meh. Judging how people never update their deployment, you're basically cutting off federation with them on a 3-months (was it?) notice

  502. pep.

    Where did I read that again

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  504. Zash

    It was in the talk IIRC?

  505. pep.

    There's a bit in the talk, but not the notice period

  506. pep.

    https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/pull/1711/commits/f30e6851127874739659ffe2b2c211c4db6e50f0#diff-14fe96e0952d0411db3e9ecbbddce789R53 I remember reading this

  507. pep.

    Or my browser remembers, rather

  508. pep.

    "Once everybody has migrated off to v3 rooms, we'll be killing off v1 rooms", so, almost never :x

  509. Zash

    Let me tell you about Groupchat 1.0

  510. pep.

    I was going to mention it yeah

  511. Zash

    That was "The old thing" back when MUC was first written

  512. Matthew

    the difference is perhaps that we’re in position to upgrade a bit more ruthlessly and proactively

  513. Matthew

    and can massively cheat because there’s only one usable server

  514. pep.

    That surely simplifies lots of things. You're not in control of every deployment though

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  516. pep.

    I think that's the biggest barrier

  517. Zash

    I'm sure we could have done that in 2003 when jabber.org was still The Place

  518. Matthew

    of course, but if we ship synapse 1.0 that refuses to talk to self-signed certs and put it on the disproportionately large matrix.org, i suspect folks would get around to chucking a real cert on their servers

  519. Matthew

    and we‘ve given a month for folks to sort themselves out

  520. Matthew

    it remains to be seen if that’s enough

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  522. Matthew

    but i’d prefer to set a fast tempo for this sort of thing, and coincide it with the 1.0 etc

  523. Matthew

    and yes, i bet in the jabber.org days you could have done similarly for xmpp

  524. Matthew

    and yes, i know omemo, and it is compatible with olm (in fact the omemo xep at one point adopted olm). but that doesn’t help when the underlying protocols are entirely different

  525. pep.

    I was just curious to know if it was compatible enough to work over a bridge

  526. Matthew

    it’s like saying that xmpp and nntp both use tls, and then being sad when they can’t talk to one another

  527. Zash

    There comes a point where if you do that, you would be cutting yourself off from the wider federation.

  528. Matthew

    no, you always have to reencrypt e2e over a bridge

  529. Matthew

    or have a multihead client

  530. pep.

    yeah ok

  531. Zash

    Matthew: I don't think the low-level protocol matters for that. OTR "works" over any transport.

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  533. Matthew

    zash: only because otr is used for plain text payloads

  534. Zash

    It'll be more a matter of how what bits goes into OMEMO and OLM and whether they can come out the other end

  535. Zash

    Matthew: So is OMEMO

  536. Matthew

    whereas omemo and olm encrypt entire objects aiui

  537. Matthew

    or at least olm does

  538. Zash

    No, OMEMO is jsut the plain text body

  539. Matthew

    oh, ok

  540. Zash

    That's one of the problems some people have with it

  541. Matthew

    well, i guess we could do a dialect of olm which only encrypts the plaintext body, but that’s a bit bleurgh

  542. Zash


  543. Matthew

    especially as matrix is about syncing objs rather than IMs in the end

  544. Matthew

    we’re going to take a look at replacing olm and megolm with mls, anyway

  545. Matthew

    which at least might get everyone on the same ratchet

  546. Matthew

    but you’d have the same problem of what layer you encrypt at

  547. pep.


  548. Matthew

    in terms of the body or the whole stanza (or event in matrix terminology)

  549. pep.

    What I'd like to have, is a client implementing the component interface, and being able to run bridges etc., this way I wouldn't care about these bridges decrypting and reencrypting

  550. Matthew

    basically, e2ee + bridging = sadpanda

  551. Matthew

    unless you run the bridge clientside, but then you’re basically back at a multiheaded client again.

  552. Zash

    and the cycle continues

  553. Matthew

    loads of the matrix bridges are built that way tho (whatsapp, imessage, signal etc)

  554. Matthew


  555. Matthew

    and indeed

  556. Matthew

    i don’t think it’s that unreasonable to say that if you want e2e you should be on the same network tho

  557. Matthew

    assuming you have bridged public rooms and insecure bridged dms

  558. pep.

    I don't think it's reasonable to say that to users. They don't understand they're using Matrix or XMPP and they really don't care. Or at least my mom doesn't :)

  559. Zash

    That basically goes with all more advanced native features

  560. Matthew

    then perhaps there is more use for a “just the payload” e2e dialect

  561. Matthew

    for bridging purposes

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  563. Zash

    When doing bridges, there'll usually be things that can't be translated. So you end up with the lowest common denominators.

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  565. Matthew

    have filed https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/issues/1871 fwiw

  566. pep.


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  578. vanitasvitae

    Matthew: nice to see you in this room :) Had some enlightening talks with matrix folks at fosdem

  579. vanitasvitae

    Very excited that you seem to have found some solutions to the "fingerprint flood problem" :D

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  587. Matthew

    cool :) glad you were able to sync with folks on our side

  588. Matthew

    and yup, cross signing is looking promising

  589. Matthew

    although we still have some thinkos in the current spec

  590. Matthew

    and need to do a 3rd rewrite

  591. Matthew

    https://github.com/uhoreg/matrix-doc/blob/cross-signing/proposals/1680-cross-signing.md is the 2nd iteration of it

  592. Matthew

    in case there’s anything of interest there.

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