XSF Discussion - 2019-02-18

  1. rion has left
  2. rion has joined
  3. Guus has left
  4. j.r has joined
  5. lskdjf has left
  6. vanitasvitae has joined
  7. lskdjf has joined
  8. UsL has left
  9. UsL has joined
  10. Alex has left
  11. Alex has joined
  12. Zash has left
  13. jmpman has joined
  14. lumi has joined
  15. lumi has joined
  16. labdsf has left
  17. labdsf has joined
  18. xnamed has left
  19. xnamed has joined
  20. jjrh has left
  21. wurstsalat has joined
  22. wurstsalat has joined
  23. kokonoe has left
  24. Guus has joined
  25. kokonoe has joined
  26. lskdjf has joined
  27. waqas has joined
  28. bowlofeggs has left
  29. lorddavidiii has left
  30. lorddavidiii has joined
  31. mrDoctorWho has left
  32. debacle has left
  33. lorddavidiii has left
  34. lorddavidiii has joined
  35. moparisthebest has joined
  36. 404.city has joined
  37. frainz has left
  38. frainz has joined
  39. lskdjf has joined
  40. frainz has joined
  41. frainz has left
  42. frainz has joined
  43. remko has joined
  44. rtq3 has left
  45. rtq3 has joined
  46. oli has joined
  47. labdsf has left
  48. remko has left
  49. labdsf has joined
  50. ThibG has left
  51. kokonoe has left
  52. lude5 has joined
  53. lude5 has left
  54. alacer has joined
  55. kokonoe has joined
  56. xnamed has left
  57. rtq3 has left
  58. rtq3 has joined
  59. Guus has left
  60. Guus has joined
  61. Guus has left
  62. bowlofeggs has left
  63. lskdjf has joined
  64. lskdjf has joined
  65. Zash Why is there a xep for what game or music you're playing but not whatbbook you're reading?
  66. lumi has left
  67. labdsf has joined
  68. wurstsalat has joined
  69. frainz has left
  70. frainz has joined
  71. bowlofeggs has joined
  72. Guus has joined
  73. 404.city has left
  74. lskdjf has joined
  75. j.r has joined
  76. alacer has left
  77. j.r has joined
  78. wurstsalat has joined
  79. bowlofeggs has left
  80. l has joined
  81. lskdjf has joined
  82. Guus has left
  83. l has left
  84. l has joined
  85. ThibG has joined
  86. kokonoe has left
  87. kokonoe has joined
  88. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  89. moparisthebest has left
  90. rtq3 has left
  91. alacer has joined
  92. Guus has joined
  93. igoose has left
  94. igoose has joined
  95. labdsf has left
  96. Guus has left
  97. Guus has joined
  98. labdsf has joined
  99. Nekit has joined
  100. Guus has left
  101. alacer has left
  102. waqas has left
  103. waqas has joined
  104. alacer has joined
  105. lnj has joined
  106. waqas has left
  107. Guus has joined
  108. alacer has left
  109. l has left
  110. Tobias has joined
  111. karoshi has joined
  112. alacer has joined
  113. Tobias has left
  114. Tobias has joined
  115. alacer has left
  116. alacer has joined
  117. Yagiza has joined
  118. moparisthebest has joined
  119. alacer has left
  120. lnj has left
  121. wurstsalat has joined
  122. lnj has joined
  123. Neustradamus has joined
  124. labdsf has left
  125. labdsf has joined
  126. alacer has joined
  127. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  128. j.r has joined
  129. j.r has joined
  130. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  131. alacer has left
  132. alacer has joined
  133. labdsf has left
  134. l has joined
  135. lorddavidiii has left
  136. labdsf has joined
  137. alacer has left
  138. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  139. alacer has joined
  140. karoshi has left
  141. karoshi has joined
  142. edhelas Zash there is one for games?
  143. alacer has left
  144. lnj has left
  145. goffi has joined
  146. remko has joined
  147. vaulor has joined
  148. vaulor has joined
  149. labdsf has left
  150. Maranda has left
  151. Maranda has left
  152. Tobias has joined
  153. j.r has joined
  154. j.r has joined
  155. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  156. karoshi has left
  157. karoshi has joined
  158. kokonoe has left
  159. kokonoe has joined
  160. andy has joined
  161. goffi has joined
  162. goffi has joined
  163. Maranda has joined
  164. Steve Kille has left
  165. lumi has joined
  166. oli has joined
  167. moparisthebest has joined
  168. moparisthebest has joined
  169. ta has joined
  170. Steve Kille has joined
  171. ta has left
  172. jmpman has joined
  173. labdsf has joined
  174. Seve If I recall correctly, the example was World of warcraft, but I'm not sure if it was deferred or retracted
  175. Seve Done by stpeter I think
  176. Maranda has left
  177. oli has left
  178. oli has joined
  179. ta has left
  180. rtq3 has joined
  181. frainz has left
  182. oli has joined
  183. oli has joined
  184. frainz has joined
  185. alacer has joined
  186. rtq3 has left
  187. rtq3 has joined
  188. kokonoe has left
  189. kokonoe has joined
  190. rion has left
  191. mrDoctorWho has left
  192. kokonoe has left
  193. kokonoe has joined
  194. 404.city has joined
  195. kokonoe has left
  196. kokonoe has joined
  197. kokonoe has left
  198. kokonoe has joined
  199. Maranda has joined
  200. Maranda has joined
  201. intosi Zash: those XEPs were from a time before reading electronically was done much. With tablets and ereaders, automatically pushing what you're reading is much easier :)
  202. 404.city has left
  203. debacle has joined
  204. Ge0rG it's actually _harder_ to _not_ automatically push what you are reading to some "interested" third parties.
  205. intosi These days? Yup.
  206. vaulor has joined
  207. alacer has left
  208. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  209. Guus has left
  210. rtq3 has left
  211. rtq3 has joined
  212. kokonoe has joined
  213. nifker has joined
  214. Ge0rG I just realize that CS-2019 is missing XEP-0066 for file attachments.
  215. nifker has left
  216. rion has left
  217. rion has joined
  218. rtq3 has left
  219. rtq3 has joined
  220. Ge0rG As it is used by multiple widely-deployed clients, it should be mentioned. On the other hand, _how_ it is used is not documented anywhere.
  221. frainz has joined
  222. kokonoe has left
  223. rtq3 has left
  224. kokonoe has joined
  225. debacle has left
  226. ralphm has joined
  227. Yagiza has left
  228. lnj has joined
  229. rtq3 has joined
  230. pep. has left
  231. Yagiza has joined
  232. kokonoe has left
  233. pep. Ge0rG, "used by multiple widely-deployed clients" and "recommended" doesn't have to match. And https://github.com/siacs/Conversations/issues/2637 as pointed out the other day.
  234. pep. Ge0rG, "used by multiple widely-deployed clients" and "recommended" don't have to match. And https://github.com/siacs/Conversations/issues/2637 as pointed out the other day.
  235. pep. Ge0rG, "used by multiple widely-deployed clients" and "recommended" don't have to match exactly. And https://github.com/siacs/Conversations/issues/2637 as pointed out the other day.
  236. rion has left
  237. rion has joined
  238. edhelas https://crypto.cat/
  239. edhelas for those that reads french, https://nl.movim.eu/?blog/edhelas@movim.eu/ebc3a98e-3a37-440f-8cb4-8de1fa7eed3b Cryptocat is basically a crentralized XMPP client + OMEMO
  240. pep. > Furthermore, this domain name, crypto.cat, is for sale. I hope they didn't have XMPP users on it. Otherwise it's going to be fun.. :/
  241. edhelas well they had
  242. pep. That's one thing I don't like with XMPP
  243. edhelas just that is was not s2s enabled
  244. Yagiza has left
  245. pep. k
  246. Yagiza has joined
  247. rtq3 has left
  248. rtq3 has joined
  249. alacer has joined
  250. kokonoe has joined
  251. kokonoe has left
  252. alameyo has left
  253. alacer has left
  254. ThibG has left
  255. kokonoe has joined
  256. ThibG has joined
  257. Alex has left
  258. vaulor has joined
  259. vaulor has joined
  260. kokonoe has left
  261. kokonoe has joined
  262. Ge0rG pep.: this boils down to the philosophical question of whether CS is a tool to document what's widely used or to define what we endorse for the future. Last time I checked it was the former, so 0066 would make sense. SIMS might as well.
  263. APach has left
  264. APach has joined
  265. xnamed has joined
  266. kokonoe has left
  267. kokonoe has joined
  268. Tobias has joined
  269. kokonoe has left
  270. mrDoctorWho has joined
  271. kokonoe has joined
  272. j.r has joined
  273. Kev has joined
  274. xnamed has left
  275. jmpman has joined
  276. kokonoe has left
  277. xnamed has joined
  278. j.r has joined
  279. kokonoe has joined
  280. rtq3 has left
  281. thorsten has left
  282. thorsten has joined
  283. xnamed has left
  284. xnamed has joined
  285. 404.city has joined
  286. 404.city has left
  287. l has joined
  288. bowlofeggs has joined
  289. rtq3 has joined
  290. xnamed has left
  291. xnamed has joined
  292. Matthew has joined
  293. lumi has joined
  294. novnov has joined
  295. ThibG has joined
  296. APach has left
  297. novnov has left
  298. novnov has joined
  299. APach has joined
  300. kokonoe has left
  301. ThibG has joined
  302. novnov has left
  303. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  304. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  305. labdsf has left
  306. kokonoe has joined
  307. labdsf has joined
  308. kokonoe has left
  309. kokonoe has joined
  310. rtq3 has left
  311. alameyo has joined
  312. mrDoctorWho has left
  313. lnj has left
  314. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  315. krauq has joined
  316. krauq has joined
  317. kokonoe has left
  318. kokonoe has joined
  319. alacer has joined
  320. moparisthebest has left
  321. ta has left
  322. moparisthebest has joined
  323. xnamed has left
  324. novnov has joined
  325. marc_ has joined
  326. waqas has joined
  327. kokonoe has left
  328. kokonoe has joined
  329. labdsf has left
  330. kokonoe has left
  331. kokonoe has joined
  332. novnov has left
  333. alacer has left
  334. labdsf has joined
  335. andy has left
  336. kokonoe has joined
  337. ta has left
  338. novnov has joined
  339. moparisthebest has left
  340. Alex has left
  341. kokonoe has left
  342. kokonoe has joined
  343. Nekit has left
  344. Nekit has joined
  345. novnov has left
  346. novnov has joined
  347. alameyo has left
  348. alameyo has joined
  349. kokonoe has left
  350. labdsf has left
  351. alameyo has left
  352. labdsf has joined
  353. bowlofeggs has left
  354. kokonoe has joined
  355. ta has left
  356. Half-ShotX has joined
  357. kokonoe has left
  358. kokonoe has joined
  359. ta has left
  360. novnov has left
  361. zinid has left
  362. kokonoe has left
  363. kokonoe has joined
  364. Zash has left
  365. kokonoe has left
  366. kokonoe has joined
  367. lumi has joined
  368. lskdjf has joined
  369. moparisthebest has joined
  370. ThibG has joined
  371. ThibG has joined
  372. tux has joined
  373. blabla has joined
  374. Nekit has left
  375. Nekit has joined
  376. j.r has left
  377. ralphm has joined
  378. kokonoe has left
  379. ralphm has joined
  380. kokonoe has joined
  381. blabla has joined
  382. kokonoe has joined
  383. Alex has left
  384. kokonoe has joined
  385. lnj has left
  386. lnj has joined
  387. Guus has left
  388. Guus has joined
  389. jjrh has left
  390. kokonoe has left
  391. kokonoe has joined
  392. kokonoe has left
  393. kokonoe has joined
  394. Guus has left
  395. labdsf has left
  396. thorsten has left
  397. Guus has joined
  398. j.r has joined
  399. thorsten has joined
  400. rion has left
  401. rion has joined
  402. ta has joined
  403. jjrh has left
  404. novnov has joined
  405. thorsten has left
  406. jjrh has left
  407. Tobias has joined
  408. oli has joined
  409. oli has joined
  410. zinid has left
  411. thorsten has joined
  412. Guus has left
  413. Guus has joined
  414. thorsten has left
  415. Kev has left
  416. Guus has left
  417. thorsten has joined
  418. kokonoe has left
  419. kokonoe has joined
  420. Ge0rG Are CRLF newlines valid in XMPP <body> elements?
  421. moparisthebest don't know why they wouldn't be?
  422. Zash I suspect the answer would be iherited from XML
  423. intosi If XML 1.0 doesn't forbid it, then XMPP will allow it here, I think.
  424. intosi (which it doesn't)
  425. intosi * which XML 1.0 doesn't.
  426. Ge0rG I'm asking because I want to remove quotes from multi-line messages
  427. novnov has left
  428. Nekit has joined
  429. Ge0rG And as always in Java, I can choose between ugly, inelegant and broken-from-stackoverflow
  430. bowlofeggs java is a great language to use if you have a lot of XML and want to turn it into very long, backwards tracebacks…
  431. lovetox has joined
  432. Ge0rG has left
  433. ralphm has left
  434. kokonoe has left
  435. kokonoe has joined
  436. Guus has joined
  437. Steve Kille has left
  438. Steve Kille has left
  439. j.r has joined
  440. marc_ has joined
  441. !xsf_Martin has joined
  442. j.r has joined
  443. novnov has joined
  444. kokonoe has left
  445. kokonoe has joined
  446. Steve Kille has joined
  447. Lance has joined
  448. Yagiza has left
  449. xnamed has joined
  450. bowlofeggs has left
  451. labdsf has joined
  452. labdsf has left
  453. labdsf has joined
  454. kokonoe has left
  455. xnamed has left
  456. novnov has left
  457. xnamed has joined
  458. kokonoe has joined
  459. kokonoe has joined
  460. bowlofeggs has left
  461. kokonoe has left
  462. kokonoe has joined
  463. Guus has left
  464. Guus has joined
  465. marc_ has left
  466. j.r has left
  467. j.r has joined
  468. debacle has joined
  469. efrit has joined
  470. mimi89999 has joined
  471. kokonoe has joined
  472. Guus has left
  473. Zash edhelas: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0196.html
  474. Zash also https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0195.html
  475. Zash I use that sometimes to share links with the void
  476. Zash Altho, if you can identify the book by an URI, like I'm pretty sure there's one ISBN, you could overload the browsing one
  477. Zash urn:isbn: yeeaaaah
  478. Ge0rG has left
  479. oli has left
  480. ta has joined
  481. jmpman has joined
  482. kokonoe has left
  483. kokonoe has joined
  484. frainz has left
  485. frainz has joined
  486. rtq3 has joined
  487. Ge0rG has left
  488. vanitasvitae has joined
  489. lskdjf has joined
  490. Ge0rG has joined
  491. l has joined
  492. Ge0rG has left
  493. bowlofeggs has left
  494. kokonoe has left
  495. kokonoe has joined
  496. jmpman has joined
  497. labdsf has left
  498. yvo has joined
  499. kokonoe has left
  500. labdsf has joined
  501. kokonoe has joined
  502. moparisthebest has joined
  503. rtq3 has left
  504. rtq3 has joined
  505. kokonoe has joined
  506. blabla has joined
  507. blabla has joined
  508. neshtaxmpp has left
  509. efrit has left
  510. Kev has joined
  511. xnamed has left
  512. Maranda has joined
  513. Maranda has joined
  514. neshtaxmpp has joined
  515. kokonoe has left
  516. kokonoe has joined
  517. kokonoe has left
  518. kokonoe has joined
  519. pep. has left
  520. l has joined
  521. frainz has left
  522. frainz has joined
  523. oli has joined
  524. jjrh has left
  525. !xsf_Martin has joined
  526. !xsf_Martin has joined
  527. !xsf_Martin has joined
  528. !xsf_Martin has joined
  529. kokonoe has left
  530. blabla has left
  531. kokonoe has joined
  532. blabla has joined
  533. moparisthebest has joined
  534. Maranda has left
  535. APach has left
  536. APach has joined
  537. j.r has left
  538. j.r has joined
  539. APach has left
  540. APach has joined
  541. remko has left
  542. kokonoe has left
  543. kokonoe has joined
  544. blabla has joined
  545. Tobias has joined
  546. jjrh has left
  547. Guus has joined
  548. lskdjf has joined
  549. kokonoe has left
  550. kokonoe has joined
  551. l has left
  552. vanitasvitae has joined
  553. vanitasvitae has joined
  554. l has joined
  555. Kev has left
  556. valo has left
  557. valo has joined
  558. rion has left
  559. frainz has left
  560. jjrh has left
  561. frainz has joined
  562. wurstsalat has joined
  563. debacle Talking about links and URIs: I would like to see a link/URL syntax in XEP-0393 Message Styling. There are multiple syntax forms to choose from: AsciiDoc: https://foo.bar/[foo bar] BBCode: [url=http://foo.bar/]foo bar[/url] Creole: [[http://foo.bar/|foo bar]] Markdown: [foo bar](http://foo.bar/) MediaWiki, Trac: [http://foo.bar/ foo bar] Org-Mode: [[http://foo.bar/][foo bar]] ReST: `foo bar <http://foo.bar/>`_ Textile: "foo bar":http://foo.bar/ I don't care which atrocity is selected, but I believe we need one.
  564. Zash <a href="http://example.com/">Foo bar</a>
  565. blabla has joined
  566. ThibG has joined
  567. debacle too beautiful for my taste, but whatever, why not?
  568. pep. Markdown already allows that right, and since most people confuse 393 for markdown, I think we're good :)
  569. blabla has left
  570. Zash Where "good" is code for "DOOMED"
  571. pep. ssshhh
  572. debacle pep. I'm fine with whatever syntax, however, I needed years to not put round and squared brackets in the wrong order in MD
  573. pep. debacle, same here, I'm still making the same mistake over and over
  574. pep. But markdown also allows html
  575. pep. So we're even better
  576. Zash So the obvious choise is to do the opposite of Markdown?
  577. pep. Zash, You mean []() ?
  578. Guus has left
  579. Zash I mean whatever the opposite of Markdown is
  580. Guus has joined
  581. Zash I'd have to look it up
  582. pep. Yeah I think that's it
  583. pep. Ah wait no that's the correct one
  584. Guus has left
  585. pep. pff
  586. Alex has left
  587. Zash ~$ pandoc -f html -t markdown <<< '<a href="link">text</a>' [text](link)
  588. debacle pep. since I remember, that round brackets are more common, therefore more likely happen in "normal" text, I now remember, that the part with the text must be surrounded by the less common square brackets. But I really have to think about this, every time I write MD.
  589. Zash <link> text
  590. pep. yeah, links in md are meh. But then rst is not better. I also use phabricator regularly, and mediawiki, which all use different markup formats, yay
  591. debacle whatever the syntax is, the idea of a link in 0393 might conflict with the idea, that the syntax should always be "transparent" to the user
  592. kokonoe has left
  593. debacle MediaWiki syntax is ugly, but the link syntax is better than MD and most others
  594. debacle MediaWiki syntax is ugly, but its link syntax is better than MD and most others
  595. mimi89999 has joined
  596. moparisthebest has joined
  597. debacle I understand the idea of 0393 is, that clients present both the markup symbols and the styling. With links it would be different, at least in some clients. The idea of a link syntax is to see only the text, while the actual URL is only visible e.g. by hovering, or whatever is appropriate for the device/client. That breaks the concept. Which is fine in XMPP :)
  598. pep. what is fine in XMPP?
  599. debacle breaking the concepts of XEPs in the middle
  600. kokonoe has joined
  601. pep. I just wish we burned 393 already
  602. debacle pep. It's (more or less) implemented in Gajim (with some differences) and Conversations (so I heard).
  603. pep. There's always been some kind of markup in gajim like that, it's never been like 393
  604. pep. So it was of course easier to implement yet another markup format
  605. debacle But 0394 is not that cool IMHO.<span start="16" end="20"><emphasis/></span>
  606. pep. I agree. We had a totally fine XEP before all that :)
  607. debacle which one?
  608. Zash 71
  609. pep. 0071
  610. debacle oh, yes, but who uses HTML anyway nowadays?
  611. pep. XHTML-IM*
  612. Zash It was in theory fine as a transport format
  613. debacle come on, this is totally broken: It uses XML! It has a regular syntax! It has all the features! No, go away with 0071!
  614. Zash Type markdown or whatever you want into your client, XHTML-IM goes on the wire
  615. pep. yep
  616. Zash debacle: What, being reasonable? NEVER, WE'RE XMPP!
  617. debacle Zash, ah sure, forget it :(
  618. debacle "insane since 1999"
  619. pep. "20 years of deception"
  620. debacle Zash, I like having some level of consistency over different clients.
  621. pep. debacle, then you could have a XEP that specifies an input format, but that doesn't have to go over the wire
  622. Zash debacle: Nothing prevents having semi-standardized client UX
  623. Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0392.html is pretty close to that already
  624. debacle E.g. when somebody uses different clients, it's nice to have an idea how to enter some formatting.
  625. debacle Well, I would not oppose reviving 0071, but at the moment I need more urgent a link syntax to enter easily and consistently in XMPP clients. Whatever the wire format is. Therefore the idea to add a link syntax to 0393. It doesn't do any bad to 0071 nor 0394.
  626. pep. Clients still support 71, they haven't removed it because it got deprecated
  627. pep. You can still use that
  628. kokonoe has left
  629. kokonoe has joined
  630. yomane has joined
  631. kokonoe has left
  632. kokonoe has joined
  633. rion has left
  634. rion has joined
  635. Guus has joined
  636. kokonoe has joined
  637. vaulor has left
  638. kokonoe has left
  639. kokonoe has joined
  640. goffi has joined
  641. zinid has left
  642. rtq3 has left
  643. rtq3 has joined
  644. kokonoe has left
  645. Guus has left
  646. Guus has joined
  647. Guus has left
  648. kokonoe has joined
  649. yvo has joined
  650. rtq3 has left
  651. ta has left
  652. mimi89999 has left
  653. vanitasvitae has joined
  654. lovetox has left
  655. ta has left
  656. kokonoe has left
  657. bowlofeggs has left
  658. MattJ has joined
  659. vanitasvitae has left
  660. ta has left
  661. Nekit has joined
  662. debacle pep. Unfortunately, Conversations does not support it, it seems. It's more likely that an URL syntax will be added to it, than 0071 support, I assume.
  663. pep. If conversations doesn't support it then it must be wrong indeed
  664. kokonoe has joined
  665. ta has joined
  666. wurstsalat has joined
  667. kokonoe has left
  668. debacle pep. Exactly! (Well, it's about a specific project I have, where we need an Android app as most important part. Xabber and yax.im do not support 0071 neither. I fear, that there is no free software Android client with 0071 support.)
  669. Andrew Nenakhov Deprecation of xep 0071 is an almost criminal offence.
  670. kokonoe has joined
  671. Andrew Nenakhov Suggestion to use markdown are silly because markdown was meant to be rendered into HTML
  672. Andrew Nenakhov So if someone suggests having a wysiwyg editor that is used to form and send markdown text, well, that's borderline crazy
  673. Andrew Nenakhov debacle, for what it's worth I plan to add support of 0071 in Xabber, maybe even this year.
  674. andrey.g has left
  675. Andrew Nenakhov Most likely it won't cover everything, but it would be good enough for basic bolds and italics.
  676. Andrew Nenakhov 393 and 394 are both silly ideas born out of false slogan that 0071 can't be implemented safely. Especially 0394 - like, really, a NEW text markup system, in 2018??!
  677. kokonoe has left
  678. xnamed has joined
  679. debacle Andrew Nenakhov, I'm happy, that I'm not the only one mourning over 0071.
  680. pep. Where were you people when the war started!
  681. karoshi has left
  682. kokonoe has joined
  683. Andrew Nenakhov Well I wasn't reading the xsf mailing lists. However, I don't think these 'rules' that dictate xep workflow are really written in stone.
  684. Andrew Nenakhov If we implement xep0071 who's gonna stop us? :)
  685. pep. Nobody, it's just discouraging externals I guess, and reinforcing the fact that the standard process is weird, for these people, because most client implement it and don't plan to remove it, some plan to even if it's deprecated. *confused*
  686. pep. Not entirely sure I have a point, but I would also feel confused.
  687. Andrew Nenakhov Btw we'll soon have VoIP working in iOS version of Xabber. The things we do to have legitimate access to those niiiice background notifications, lol
  688. ta has left
  689. Andrew Nenakhov Will have to rewrite appserver though. We lazily used Google's FCM to send simple push notifications to iOS, but FCM doesn't support VoIP pushes for some reason
  690. kokonoe has left
  691. kokonoe has joined