XSF Discussion - 2019-02-19

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  40. moparisthebest To be fair 393 just documents what most email, IRC, and xmpp clients have been doing forever
  41. moparisthebest And turns out, plenty good enough for what going on 30 years now?
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  45. Zash Oh look, logs are working again.
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  121. intosi Zash: great work, thanks!
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  126. Zash :)
  127. Zash There's also MAM support now
  128. zinid no waaaay
  129. intosi MAMnamana
  130. jonas’ batmam?
  131. zinid supermam
  132. oli moparisthebest: not exactly true, 393 uses some different markup, iirc
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  162. jubalh it seems some clients display a jid of a MUC and others its title or something. is there some XEP regarding this?
  163. Ge0rG No.
  164. jubalh Ge0rG, where does one get the 'title' from or what exactly is the right term for it?
  165. Ge0rG jubalh: https://github.com/modernxmpp/modernxmpp/issues/3
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  173. ta jubalh, what do you have im in mind for profanity? assuming that is why you ask.
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  175. jubalh Ge0rG, thanks for the link. was not aware of that modermxmpp org. it's a nice idea to document the things there
  176. jubalh ta, yep that's why I ask. I just thought about that we might want an option for users to configure what's displayed in their theme. I just joined a groupchat that was created with conversations and thus has random stuff as its jid, thats when i realized maybe we need to do something here ;)
  177. jubalh ta, in case you didnt see it: 0.6.0 came out yesterday :)
  178. Ge0rG jubalh: yeah, but it needs more love. Also check https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Category:Easy_XMPP
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  180. jubalh Ge0rG, cool thanks
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  186. pep. We should probably rework stuff written on that easy_xmpp page to reflect stuff discussed in the sprint
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  190. Ge0rG jubalh: the challenge about MUC names is which of those fields is the "master" value and how to determine that.
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  194. zinid https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-xmpp-ejabberdmongooseim-pankaj-soni/?published=t
  195. edhelas wat
  196. edhelas {"f":juliet/1',"t":"m:c","d":{"b":"Hi"}}
  197. edhelas seriously :D
  198. edhelas not sure if troll
  199. Zash u wut
  200. zinid edhelas, XMPP must be retired!
  201. pep. People spreading FUD, that's not from today
  202. zinid > XMPP is not mobile, developer or server friendly protocol questions?
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  204. edhelas https://softwarejoint.com/home#solutions
  205. edhelas their product page, before talking about optimizing stuff on XMPP they should maybe think about simply optimzing their product page, takes 3 sec to load with plenty of useless JS animations
  206. Ge0rG > Is there a better way? Yes, there is. We call it Yowza. zinid, why are you spamming us with marketing? :P
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  208. zinid Ge0rG, because it's funny
  209. edhelas zinid is secretly part of the Yowza team
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  211. Ge0rG Yowza. At least they have a nifty marketing name.
  212. Ge0rG As opposed to ex-MP pee.
  213. Zash ZIMPY
  214. Zash Oh wait, doesn't that sound too similar to SIMPLE?
  215. Zash Ruined :(
  216. Ge0rG https://www.instagram.com/zimpylovers/
  217. Ge0rG looks like we were beaten by colored dresspants.
  218. Zash I guess we'll have to stay with hoodies
  219. zinid > Builds on Bert-RPC, WebSocket, Redis, Cassandra & MySql Some outdated shit. Where is Kafka? Where is Kubernetes?
  220. MattJ Can't tell if joking
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  222. Andrew Nenakhov > XMPP is not mobile, developer or server friendly protocol That's true. However, the issues that plague XMPP would plague any protocol with a similar federated architecture.
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  229. zinid this "xmpp must be retired" article is so wrong at any its argument, it makes this article brilliant
  230. zinid it's like a trash movie: it's better when it worse
  231. Ge0rG And like with trash movies, even if you like them in principle, some of them are so bad it still hurts.
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  234. zinid dunno, not a big fan of trash movies ;)
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  277. debacle Talking about trash movies. XMPP was founded in 1999. Why not take the title of an 1999 trash movie as new name for XMPP?
  278. debacle Like e.g. "The Matrix"?
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  282. Ge0rG The Matrix ain't no trash movie!
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  289. ta Fight Club! Suits XMPP-Community pretty well.
  290. ta 10 things i hate about you....
  291. ta the mummy
  292. pep. ta, the rules of fight club fail at 2119 (/8174). They could have used the proper keywords :)
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  319. debacle Eyes Wide Shut
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  326. ta A lot of movies that year describe xmpp well
  327. jonas’ probably the zeitgeist
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  362. jubalh is there an example of when an application uses 'headline'?
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  366. Ge0rG We should have used headline for MAM responses, but we haven't
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  369. Link Mauve jubalh, PubSub notifications for instance.
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  372. lovetox Ge0rG, i think mam uses headline
  373. lovetox its not a must, but i think most servers do if i remember right
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  377. jubalh then i'll look at pubsub later :) thanks
  378. jubalh so many things to read ;)
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  385. jubalh do clients report which revision/version of an XEP they support? should they?
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  389. moparisthebest depends on the XEP
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  391. lovetox this only matters for p2p xeps and only for very very few
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  395. lovetox pubusb is c2s
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  410. lovetox if it matters clients announce what they use with disovery info
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  412. lovetox see xep 0030
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  431. Link Mauve !xsf_Martin, you’re blinking.
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  436. jubalh why does it only matter there? for clients to be compatible to each other maybe even more so. but doesnt it matter in all cases? if i implement MAM for example in a certain version and later there is another revision of it, i suppose the client should adhere to that new revision? if developers of that client change it might be hard to find out which revision the original author actually implemented, no? (on the other hand i really dont have experience what would change in a certain XEP, maybe its only typos and nothing important afterall)
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  441. lovetox jubalh, are you talking from a server developer view or client
  442. lovetox if you implement pubsub in a client, other clients are not part of the transaction so why would you care what they implement?
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  445. lovetox in general if there are breaking changes in a XEP there is a namespace bumb in the node
  446. jubalh lovetox, client
  447. Ge0rG jubalh: for client to client, it doesn't make much sense today to check for capabilities - with Carbons and MAM, your messages will end up with all sorts of clients.
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  449. jubalh ah i see, namespace bump. so as a new dev to an existing client i should check which namespace we use currently and whether there has been a bump. or would it be incompatible anyways and i would get a message?
  450. lovetox no look at the namespace
  451. jubalh ok
  452. lovetox there can be smaller changes that dont bump a namespace, but they are never breaking
  453. jubalh ok good
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  456. jubalh what would happen if i have a namespace?
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  458. jubalh if there would be urn:xmpp:mam:1 urn:xmpp:mam:2 and urn:xmpp:mam:3. and my client was written for urn:xmpp:mam:1. it would depend on whether the server impelments several or usually they only support latest when they update to a new namespace?
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  468. jubalh wonders if his question doesnt make sense
  469. jubalh looks as lovetox
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  474. lovetox in xep 313 its described how you find out what the server supports jubalh
  475. lovetox a server announces in its disco info what features it has
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  477. lovetox often servers implement multiple versions of XEPs
  478. lovetox MAM is such an example
  479. jubalh thanks :)
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  484. ta jubalh: what are you up to?
  485. ta is a courious profanity user
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  488. jubalh ta, nothing special. i just need to get familiar with all the XMPP landscape so i can help better with profanity. there is a lot that i'm unsure about :)
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  490. ta Very important are profile pictures in ascii art ;-)
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  492. Ge0rG ta: you need to switch to poezio then. I hate that feature, but it's there.
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  494. Ge0rG jubalh: implement XEP-0379. Display a QR code for mobile users, generate and process preauth tokens! 😁
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  508. jubalh ta, actually i thought about this today ;D
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  516. jubalh I might be in Berlin in a few weeks. I heard there is an XMPP meetup. Anyone of you guys there? Maybe I should join in case its the same week
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  519. debacle jubalh, please join xmpp:berlin-meetup@conference.conversations.im?join
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  521. jubalh debacle, done, thx
  522. debacle we also have an XMPP sprint in Berlin: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Sprints/2019_March_Berlin
  523. debacle all XMPP developers, coders, documentors, editors are invited
  524. debacle food and drinks are free
  525. pep. Careful when saying "free food and drinks", you're going to attract too many people in XMPP
  526. debacle that was intended :)
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  528. debacle as long as they actually *do* something (other than eating and drinking) it's fine
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  531. jubalh hmm that would be interesting. though i will proably be there on another week, maybe i can come again for this event
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  534. jubalh at least in case you guys dont mind me to bother you with all kinds of beginnre xmpp dev questions ;)
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  537. debacle we probably can't help you, but we would try
  538. ta debacle: who takes care of the espenses?
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  540. ta Ge0rG, jubalh: i mentioned that feature because i find it a funny gimmick and it probably does not involve too much fiddling with xmpp itself in the first place.
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  542. debacle ta, we have (almost certainly) a sponsor :) it's limited a little bit, but we expect we can have sandwiches and drinks during the days. The restaurant in the night has to be paid by everyone themselves. But we go to a relatively cheap one. We know, that many are students etc.
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  547. ta Okay. Thought nicr company is giving back.
  548. debacle jubalh, there is something you might like to adopt. There is a profanity plugin to support OMEMO. (In fact, there are even two of them.) The original author abandoned it, but I think it might be easier nowadays, because syndace wrote a nice OMEMO library in Python. You could go on with its development.
  549. jubalh debacle, just today somebody started to work on OMEMO support
  550. jubalh no plugin though, he started to implement it in c in the client (otr and pgp are also done like that)
  551. jubalh but we were aware of the started plugins
  552. debacle Oh, great!
  553. debacle Just today I tried OMEMO successfully in jp (command line client of Salut à Toi) and Psi+.
  554. ta jubalh: that is awesome news. I try to contain myself
  555. jubalh ta, its rather unofficial yet. so lets not create pressure for the guy working on it :)
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  559. ta Yeah, we are in private here *cough*
  560. jubalh ;)
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  562. debacle no need to reveal anything, just give us name, phone number, and physical address (which is *not* the MAC)
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  564. jubalh ;p
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  567. ta Seriously its nice to see some progress
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  592. Ge0rG What's a good user understandable name for "muc bookmarks"? "my group chats"?
  593. ta Activly joined/connected or stored and to selelct for connecting?
  594. Ge0rG Stored
  595. Zash "Bookmarked (group) chats" ?
  596. Zash Favorited maybe?
  597. Zash or Starred
  598. Ge0rG Favorites... Hmmm, that's a good one
  599. ta +1 for Favorites
  600. Ge0rG Though the implications are rather... "synchronized to all devices"
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  602. ta And here are a server developer, a security consultant and a UI-noob discussing UI. The result must be awesome ;-)
  603. Ge0rG And autojoin is "automatically join on other devices"
  604. Zash Perfectly consistennt with XMPP
  605. Zash Perfectly consistent with XMPP
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  607. ta Ge0rG: joining, leaving mucs and synchronizarion is hard to explain to others. In sync would be easiest to explain, but i myself woulnt want it for all mucs.
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  610. Ge0rG https://op-co.de/tmp/muc-bookmarks.png
  611. kokonoe has left
  612. ta On my mobile i hust want the most important public mucs to be connected, the ones i stumbled in to be moderator... On desktop connect to all, but only open some... Its complicated.
  613. kokonoe has joined
  614. ta Ge0rG: i think i have seen that pnenomenal piece of art before.
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  616. Zash "Always show chat on other devices" for autojoin maybe?
  617. goffi has left
  618. Ge0rG What's a device?
  619. Zash Hm
  620. Zash What does it mean to have a bookmarked but not joined room?
  621. Ge0rG Yes.
  622. Zash .
  623. kokonoe has left
  624. Ge0rG Zash: it doesn't have any effect by default, except that it's shown in some obscure dialogs?
  625. Zash Hm
  626. kokonoe has joined
  627. Zash Maybe Favorite should be bookmark+autojoin, while the more neutral Bookmark is just bookmark?
  628. remko has left
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  630. ta a bookmark deiitely sounds passive, not like something already joined/connected
  631. Ge0rG https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Sprints/2019_January_Brussels/Pad
  632. Ge0rG Maybe somebody can fix the mockdown
  633. Zash Why do you bookmark?
  634. Zash Why do you set it to autojoin?
  635. Zash (or not)
  636. Half-ShotX has joined
  637. Ge0rG I wouldn't add non-autojoin bookmarks from *my* client
  638. Zash But as a user?
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  643. Lance I bookmark rooms so I don't have to remember/find the room JID again, and to not have to remember to set my nick every time. I only mark a couple that i'm always interested in to autojoin; the rest are just for shortcuts whenever I do want to join in.
  644. j.r has left
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  647. lovetox But the user should not need to set autojoin or remove it
  648. lovetox autojoin is only for the client to know when it starts what your last conversations were
  649. lovetox for a user there should only "Leave this conversation" or "Join this conversation"
  650. lovetox the details of how the client remembers what conversations were joined and how and if he saves that on the server should not be the concern of the user
  651. xnamed has left
  652. Ge0rG lovetox: what if a user wants to join all their private MUCs from the mobile, but not high traffic MUCs like this one?
  653. Lance Not even mobile vs desktop or traffic. I've got over 30 rooms bookmarked. Only 5 or so set to autojoin
  654. lovetox Lance thats the most usual usecase
  655. lovetox everybody does it like that
  656. Lance That could be a side effect from client UIs, where clients open up a new tab for each room, and you're only 'joined' while that tab is open. And I don't want 30+ tabs opened
  657. Yagiza has joined
  658. lovetox Ge0rG, highly specialized usecase, where the user cares about traffic consumption and modifies his MUC joins because it saves him X percent in data traffic
  659. lovetox thats nothing i would develop for
  660. Lance ooooh, now i think i understand the UX you're describing lovetox
  661. Lance has left
  662. Ge0rG lovetox: you are only saying that because you are a desktop developer! 😜
  663. Yagiza has left
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  665. lovetox maybe, i also dont have a smartphone
  666. lovetox but at least i know there is a billion whatsapp users, and they dont have the chance to optimize their traffic
  667. lovetox didnt stop them from using it
  668. lskdjf has left
  669. Ge0rG They get their traffic optimized centrally
  670. lovetox and they share so many pictures, how many MUCs do you have to join that you get the equiv of a 5 MB photo in traffic
  671. yvo has joined
  672. Ge0rG I know I started the trolling, but now you've overdone.
  673. waqas has joined
  674. Ge0rG The problem isn't large files but waking up the radio all the time for small packets
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  677. lovetox but the topic was bookmarks and muc joins ^^
  678. Ge0rG Like for presence updates, or the millionth disco info request
  679. lovetox yeah disco info is bad
  680. lovetox if you change the disco info of the client
  681. lovetox then join a muc
  682. lovetox you are in a world of hurt
  683. Ge0rG If you don't change it, it still hurts
  684. lovetox why? should be cached then or not
  685. Ge0rG Nobody is testing those code paths
  686. Ge0rG People add junk hashes to their presence, respond with incorrect caps etc
  687. Zash Devs add stuff that makes every caps hash unique
  688. lovetox actually i have a log warning for that, there are really client out there who calculate that wrong
  689. Ge0rG https://lab.louiz.org/poezio/poezio/issues/3453
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  692. lovetox ah yeah i thought it was poezio, but never bothered to verify it
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