> Other alternatives, such as Telegram, Slack and Discord, although feature-rich, are centralized and built around closed-source technologies and offer even less control than IRC.
Pretending XMPP doesn't exist
zinid
btw, they used to have an XMPP server
Seve
My first or second account was on their server
Seve
They kind of ignored me when I tried to approach them, so this does not surprise me
Seve
Sad news in my opinion but it is up to them in the end
zinid
I personally don't care, KDE is not representative
!xsf_Martin
What is a KDE?
Seve
I made this table with help from others here https://github.com/SeveFP/KDE_IM_Requirements/wiki/XMPP-Table and sent it to them and try to see if we could do something together but they didn't show any interest on it
Seve
when they announced they wanted to move to some solution
Guus
Let's try to focus on increasing our exposure, instead of discussing the exposure of Matrix. Let's learn from what they do right.
Guus
(That's actually a nice table, Seve!)
goffi
Guus: they have money
goffi
I mean, we could have polished UIs if more people were working full time on XMPP
Guus
Goffi: given that there are _several_ commercial providers of XMPP solutions: we have money too.
goffi
but I know only 2 clients which can do this: Conversations and Converse, and both are only done by one people as far as I know.
Guus
And there are ways to gain more money (we'll discuss this in upcoming board meetings too)
Guus
Try to think of solutions, not of problems.
goffi
you need to know the problem to find a solution
Guus
You identified two recurring issues: lack of money (which I doubt we have, to be honest), and a need to improve UI / UX in our clients.
Guus
I'll add a third one: we're not showing off enough of what we can do.
goffi
we have money in servers, not in clients.
Guus
"not having money" is not a problem. It's something that prevents us from finding some easy solutions.
Guus
"not having a good UI" is a problem.
Guus
let's worry about that.
Guus
I've tried reaching out to OpenSourceDesign, where I need to to follow ups
Guus
Ge0rG et al. are making progress on UX guidelines
goffi
Guus: it's link to being able to work full time. You need time to focus on polishing.
goffi
linked*
Guus
goffi that helps, but isn't going to fix UI/UX things. You need expertise, too.
Guus
where do we find these?
Guus
do we integrate our solutions at customers, where such expertise is available?
Guus
maybe we can ask for help there.
Guus
We have several pretty successful projects that are making money. Maybe we can start sharing experience on how to do that, so that more projects can reach that level.
neshtaxmpphas left
Guus
We can think of plenty of things that can be effective. That's way more stimulating that just being jealous at Matrix for "having money".
Guus
I'm still convinced that the XMPP proposition is at least as good as Matrix's one. So with that in mind, we must be able to at least match what they're doing.
Guus
but we'll have to put in the effort.
Guus
I'm going to visit a commercial org tomorrow, that I've met at FOSDEM. They expressed interest in stimulating XMPP. They offered to host a sprint, and they like to see the UX of the IOS clients to be improved. We'll discuss that tomorrow.
Guus
let's find more of these people, and reach out!
goffi
Guus: who's jealous ? it's not about being jealous, it's about explaining why they have more polished UI and attraction.
pep.
Guus, oh is that the one that we discussed with?
Guus
let's do more outreach - write more blog post, show off stuff that we _can_ do moar, better, faster.
Guus
goffi: so let's fix that. But I'm convinced that there's a level of jealousy in the XMPP community. In some MUCs, "matrix" is mentioned more than the topic of the MUC, which I think is such a shame.
Guus
pep. the two guys who talked to you after your presentation, yes
goffi
There have been lot ot unfair attacks from Matrix community (and leaders) toward XMPP one, specially at the beginning (it's slightly better now), so there have been reactions to that. And it's important to know what going around in other protocols/software.
Guus
Could someone help me get job postings at https://opensourcedesign.net/ for clients that want/need help from designers?
pep.
I want help from them as a server operator, for now :x I need to post that someday
Guus
please, do!
zinid
I agree with goffi - money is the problem
zinid
a few full time devs and you get your UI
zinid
and we obviously don't have money, I don't understand why Guus said the opposite
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
Guus
zinid Money is not a problem, it offers a possible solution to a problem.
pep.
We do critically lack resources
pep.
At least in the public part of the community
Guus
so, let's find resources.
zinid
Guus, money is the obvious way to get human resources
zinid
Guus, other methods have failed
zinid
we tried a lot of them in the past 15 years
Guus
don't get me wrong: I'm not saying that we should not try to get more money. That's why I put this (sponsoring, financing) on the agenda of the board again. But I am sure that we can find more ways to attack the problem.
pep.
Guus, well that boils down to other people spending this money (time)
pep.
s/other //
Guus
pep. As XMPP is used pretty much everywhere, that must be possible to do.
pep.
All the sprints we do are not free, for example, time, transportation, accomodations, that's all on our own. Even if at the end I'm happy to do it, that comes with a cost
wurstsalathas left
Guus
I think the sprints are great to have, and I β€ the people spending time/resources to make them happen!
Guus
Do we have employers (or customers) that are somehow invested in XMPP, and have UI/UX employees that they can spare for a day per week?
neshtaxmpphas joined
Guus
commercial organizations do OSS sponsoring all the time. This could be one way of doing that.
zinid
> spare for a day per week?
That's not how development works
zinid
you need some focus and dedication in order to produce something valuable
Guus
zinid: then find a collaboration that works better.
pep.
It's already better than nothing.
Guus
but in any case, 1 day per week is better than 0 days per week.
zinid
I don't buy that argument honestly, I hear it a lot
Guus
my point is: let's try to find ways to pull in resources.
pep.
And that's already how lots of the free software projects around here work
zinid
what you can say is 1 > 0, that's it
Guus
zinid please offer better solutions then!
Guus
I'm open to anything
Guus
as long as it's not "we don't have money so we're doomed"
debaclehas joined
goffi
I'm working part time (80%), that mean that I have one day a week I pay on my own to work on my project, and I'm overwhelmed and have no time for now to work on UI polishing. I don't say we are doomed, but I say it's not sustainable on the long run without paid full time dev.
Guus
pep. I'm interested in your reason for searching for UI/UX experts as a server operator. What exactly would you like to see improved there?
pep.
See my wonderful design skills: https://cluxia.eu/
pep.
I'd like to have a color theme / logo
pep.
I have a few ideas, but no clue how to put that together
Guus
that seems like a solvable problem π
Seve
goffi, I'm guessing somebody else apart from you working on the project would also help
Seve
I understand is hard to find collaboration, I know
Guus
pep. I think I can set you up with someone that can improve that page
frainzhas left
Guus
pep. could you send me a brief "this is what I would like to happen" summary?
neshtaxmpphas left
pep.
Sure I'll try to write something down. Thanks
frainzhas joined
Ge0rG
> The requested page "/2019/02/20/kde-migrating-matrix" could not be found.
Looks like somebody pulled the plug
Ge0rG
Guus: "we have money" is illusive, because we as the XSF have a complex process to access that money, and it is (rightfully) demanded that the money is spent in a fair and impartial way. We can't just throw 10k⬠at improving Monal, even if we have consensus that we badly need a good iOS client, nor can we throw 10k⬠at me implementing my favorite yaxim feature.
!xsf_Martinhas left
Ge0rG
I can see how sponsoring (open-access) Sprints and Summits and conferences is a Good Thing.
!xsf_Martinhas joined
Ge0rG
But this only goes so far in bringing forward XMPP
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
Guus
Ge0rG all true. On top of the XSF getting more money, I'd also like to set up a way for individual projects to share knowledge about making money for themselves.
Guus
Some projects are more successful than others.
Seve
We for sure can help to promote crowdfunding campaigns though, if Monal has one, for example
Guus
We can learn from eachother there.
Ge0rG
Guus: I know I'm sounding like a broken record, but this would be a great task for The Jabber Software Foundationβ’
neshtaxmpphas joined
Guus
Ge0rG make it happen, please.
pep.
Ge0rG, you mean sponsoring etc.? Or teaching people how to get money
pep.
Because I also want in on these tips
Ge0rG
Guus: I learned the hard way that You Shall Not Create A Jabber Org.
Guus
Ge0rG doesn't stop you from preparing to get people together, start collecting / sharing information, right?
Ge0rG
pep.: promoting sponsorship awareness as well as redistributing money
frainzhas left
Guus
the name is just a name.
pep.
Ge0rG, yeah well that was discussed at the summit, and I think we can do something with what we started already
frainzhas joined
Guus
\o/ progress!
pep.
I'm patiently awaiting (I long) for the time I have _any_ time to put in it.. hopefully soon enough.
kokonoehas left
goffi
Guus: I agree about sharing knowledge, but people may fear to see councurent projects raising and taking there grants/customers.
goffi
their*
Guus
goffi we don't know before we try.
kokonoehas joined
Ge0rG
Guus: what pep. said. We all have things on our TODO lists. But they always get overridden with higher-priority non-XMPP things.
Guus
goffi I'm also more thinking of sharing _techniques_ rather than _customers_
Ge0rG
Ironically, some of us might be able to invest more time if it were paid ;)
Guus
to give a very practical example
Ge0rG
So does anyone have a cache of https://dot.kde.org/2019/02/20/kde-migrating-matrix - the page was removed :(
Guus
someone told me it'd be a good idea to have a 'professional services' section on the igniterealtime website, so that people that search for ways to spend money on Openfire, Smack, etc would find people willing to accept money.
Guus
we put up a very basic section: I've already been approached through that a couple of times in the last few weeks alone.
Ge0rG
Guus: what do I need to do to get enlisted there?
Ge0rG
...with my employer's hat on?
Guus
Ge0rG a credible link as a service provider of ignite-realtime related projects.
goffi
Guus: could the XSF help to put people willing to spend money for service/feature reach people offering them? Like a dedicate page on XMPP.org?
Guus
(who's your employer?)
Ge0rG
Guus: https://rt-solutions.de/en/
Guus
goffi I don't know - we can consider it.
Guus
Ge0rG from a quick browse on the website, I'm not seeing obvious Openfire/Smack service providing offerings?
Ge0rG
Guus: as a person, I'm heavily invested in Smack (and obviously experienced in XMPP as a whole), but there is no way to rent me out except via my employer.
Ge0rG
Guus: the latter is expensive, and heavily targeted at German companies, but there is a market for that, and if you need some kind of page on our homepage about competent XMPP support (I'd prefer XMPP over specific Ignite projects if possible), I can probably make it happen.
Guus
Ge0rG the way that we've set up that page at IgniteRealtime, we expect that visitors of the 'professional support' page to be searching for very specific solutions / expertise. So, if you'd like to be listed there, I suggest you have a landing page at your employers site, that lists the (Smack-based) services that you can provide.
Guus
I shared the IgniteRealtime "professional support" thingy as an example of how other OSS projects could also try to attract more money.
Guus
I'm not saying that this is the only solution. goffi already suggested having something that's more XMPP-generic - which seems to suit you better.
andyhas left
andyhas joined
andyhas left
Guus
So, although I'd certainly consider adding your company to the Ignite listing, I'm also/primarily using this as an example of things that other projects could also do.
Guus
and no, that won't fix all of our problems overnight
Guus
but by sharing ideas like this, we _will_ improve things.
404.cityhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
frainzhas left
ThibGhas left
ThibGhas joined
frainzhas joined
Guus
goffi From a quick browse, I'm not finding a way for me to hire someone on my salut-a-toi problems (if I have one), at https://salut-a-toi.org/
Guus
Maybe considering adding that to the website?
Guus
Maybe consider adding that to the website?
ThibGhas left
ThibGhas joined
goffi
Guus: yes, I'm currently redoing the website so I can add this. But SΓ T itself was not ready so far to be used in production, it should be alright starting with the incoming release.
goffi
We've made a couple of strategic mistakes, starting by not doing the famous "release early, realease often"
Guus
goffi I have no experience with it, so I can't judge. One thing that I can say is that I am sometimes amazed at how people use pre-release, not-ready stuff in production anyway π
pep.
Wait, isn't that what production means? :)
Guus
pep. you also deploy on Fridays, don't you?
pep.
I deploy on weekends, even worse
goffi
yes, that what one of my friend well aware of business stuff told me: you should not wait to have something bullet proof, nobody does.
Guus
goffi sounds like you have a friend that could offer ideas to more of the XMPP community!
zinid
> zinid please offer better solutions then!
> I'm open to anything
> as long as it's not "we don't have money so we're doomed"
Guus: I have no solutions except money, and even that is not easy to collect and redistribute
Guus
maybe you should invite him to share ideas
Guus
zinid I just shared an idea on how to make money. We can use more ideas like that.
goffi
Guus: he already wrote interesting reads on his blog: https://blog.addictedtointer.net/2017/09/26/goodbye-cozy/
Guus
I'll share another one. I've heard of several people in companies that would like to 'sponsor' an open source project that they're using, but setting up sponsoring through their corporate procedures is difficult (not standardized). What is, however, easy for them to do, is to buy a 'support contract'. So, OSS projects could start offering 'support contracts' with the idea that this really is just sponsoring.
Guus
I'm currently not doing that, so I can't tell if it's effective - but again, it's somethign that you might consider for your project.
karoshihas left
lnjhas left
alacerhas joined
404.cityhas left
karoshihas joined
Guus
As a third, and final, idea / food for thought: I've learned about idea 1 and 2 when I met up with people at either FOSDEM or (what then was not yet called) sprints. I highly recommend getting together like that!
Ge0rG
Guus: those things should be documented in the xdf maybe?
Ge0rG
https://xmpp-developers.foundation
Guus
Maybe. Go for it. Not sure if these are thoughts to be stamped as 'approved by the XDF'.
lnjhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
Guus
Ge0rG it's discourse link is broken: https://discourse.xmpp-developers.foundation/
Ge0rG
Somebody needs to open an issue on https://github.com/XMPP-Developers-Foundation/website I suppose
pep.
I am already ready to oppose the use of discourse, fwiw
Maybe it's time to revive it instead of pretending it's not there
Guus
off to lunch with me.
Ge0rG
There were six mails this year.
Ge0rG
Lunch is an awesome idea. BBL
pep.
Or.. if you really want to kill that list, it's not impossible to have bulletin boards on XMPP, and goffi has a barebone implementation of one in SΓ T. Porting discourse to XMPP would be another idea.
rtq3has joined
Guus
pep.: Flow mentioned something like that for Ignite Realtime earlier
Guus
Using smack
pep.
Like which part?
Guus
XMPP Discourse integration
pep.
I see
pep.
By that I meant not just authentication right
pep.
I also meant using XMPP as the storage backend (pubsub)
Guus
I think Flows Idea was to post replies to discourse, using XMPP
pep.
Well if you have it using pubsub, yes that'd be possible
Guus
I think it already offers an API that you can hook an XMPP client library in
Guus
Unsure, talk to Flow. π
blablahas left
xnamedhas joined
blablahas joined
olihas joined
pep.
The thing is that I'd just want discourse to be a dumb frontend
Ge0rG
Then we could use xmpp as the transport and matrix as the backend! π
Guus
Unsure if that is achievable
MattJ
It is if you write it in Lua
goffi
:D
goffi
but that's a point which is annoying me a bit, we have tools not perfect but usable and which can be easily improved, and community want to use non XMPP software instead. How can we promote XMPP if the community itself doesn't use it?
goffi
(lunch time)
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
Seve
XMPP based forums is something I dream with since long time ago actually, I will ping you goffi I think, I'm really curious
lumihas joined
jonasβ
we do use XMPP, donβt we?
karoshihas left
karoshihas joined
ThibGhas left
ThibGhas joined
zinid
jonasβ, how is jabbercat doing?
zinid
oh, 2 months without a single commit
pep.
It's dead! Don't use it it's unmaintained!!1!1
zinid
I won't, okay
novnovhas joined
debacle
Is there anybody in the XMPP community who does *not* have their very own client? That's so nice about XMPP: You can choose betwenn many, many clients, all bad in their own way. Fixing issues would be boring, so why not write a new one?
Guus
ME!
Guus
but I have my own server. Does that count?
MattJ
Real server devs have their own client too
debacle
And I have only a bot.
alameyo
only one client? you need one on each platform
Guus
Also, I'm wrapping every web-based client that I can find as a plugin... π
Ge0rG
MattJ: what's yours? :D
MattJ
clix, for the command-line
pep.
Also scansion?
MattJ
scansion counts too, I guess :)
MattJ
But isn't for users
Ge0rG
...as opposed to clix, right?
bowlofeggshas joined
MattJ
Absolutely :)
Ge0rG
Uhm. Yeah.
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
jonasβ
zinid, currently the improvements are more happening in aioxmpp ;)
jonasβ
looking forward to implement MIX there and then in JC
novnovhas left
zinid
jonasβ, you need to work full time on JC, JSF (created by Ge0rG) will pay you
Ge0rG
zinid: and you will pay the JSF?
zinid
Ge0rG, no, I'm affiliated, I cannot pay, I can only receive
valohas left
valohas joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
lumihas left
lumihas joined
jonasβ
zinid, sounds like a plan
olihas left
alacerhas joined
zinid
btw, the current state of matrix.org patreon is ~$3800 per month
zinid
I wonder if the xsf can collect similar money
debacle
jonas' why doesn't JC work on JC? :)
Alex
> I wonder if the xsf can collect similar money
we easily can
xnamedhas left
xnamedhas joined
zinid
Alex: I don't find the xsf at patreon π
zinid
I see only sponsoring page where the amount starts at $1000
!xsf_Martinhas left
alacerhas left
goffi
Seve: https://www.libervia.org/forums/list it's really basic but working. The hierarchy of forums is stored in a pubsub node linked to the language (so you can have different topics in different languages), and then it's XEP-0277 blog nodes with open access. Experimentation is concluant, so that one of the protoXEP I need to write and propose.
ralphmhas joined
yvohas left
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
Nekithas joined
xnamedhas left
xnamedhas joined
xnamedhas left
xnamedhas joined
alacerhas joined
olihas joined
labdsfhas joined
alacerhas left
alacerhas joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
flow
Ge0rG, looks like the blog post was edited: https://dot.kde.org/2019/02/20/kde-adding-matrix-its-im-framework
alacerhas left
bowlofeggshas left
Alexhas left
bowlofeggshas joined
!xsf_Martinhas joined
rtq3has left
rtq3has joined
lumihas left
Andrew Nenakhovhas left
Andrew Nenakhovhas joined
frainzhas left
alacerhas joined
Andrew Nenakhovhas left
frainzhas joined
alacerhas left
alacerhas joined
rtq3has left
Andrew Nenakhovhas joined
xnamedhas left
pep.
They say matrix provides "presence" in that article, I wonder what they mean by that
andyhas joined
pep.
Is it just the status? online/unavailable/offline/whatever
Kevhas left
alacerhas left
Matthewhas left
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
waqashas joined
karoshihas left
peterhas joined
alacerhas joined
Bifrost Bothas joined
alacerhas left
alacerhas joined
karoshihas joined
UsLhas left
lnjhas left
UsLhas joined
peterhas left
lnjhas joined
jonasβ
Ge0rG, can you confirm real quick that youβre happy with this version of the '156 diff? https://github.com/xsf/xeps/commit/160145b9152fbae62620637a70830e91b597987e
andyhas left
dwdhas left
dwdhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
jeroenhas joined
Alexhas joined
Ge0rG
jonasβ: π
jonasβ
non-emoji please
Ge0rG
jonasβ: yes
jonasβ
thx
Ge0rG
jonasβ: the English is a bit bumpy, but I'm OK with the content
jonasβ
feel free to fix the former
Ge0rG
Or... I'll just go back to work
jonasβ
or that
jeroenhas left
alacerhas left
alacerhas joined
dwdhas left
dwdhas joined
alacerhas left
alacerhas joined
alacerhas left
pep.
Ge0rG, also to answer your question, http://logs.jabber.org/jdev@conference.jabber.org.html, but that seems to have stopped in 2015, not sure why
pep.
I wonder what this was, http://logs.jabber.org/devcon@conference.jabber.org.html
pep.
hmm, and https seems borked: "The certificate is only valid for the following names: logs.xmpp.org, muc.xmpp.org, www.xmpp.org, xmpp.org"
pep.
ohhh, logs.xmpp.org ~
pep.
less links though :(
pep.
What's techreview@muc.xmpp.org?
pep.
No description, no name
pep.
hmm, and topic says "visit xmpp:xsf@muc.xmpp.org?join instead"
igoosehas left
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
igoosehas joined
alacerhas joined
alacerhas left
j.rhas left
j.rhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
ralphmhas left
alacerhas joined
dwdhas left
dwdhas joined
alacerhas left
dwdhas left
ralphmhas joined
pep.
https://jitsi.org/news/telephony-support-on-meet-jit-si/ anybody tried their gateway support? Also is it possible to self-host that dial-in gateway or is it all closed?
Guus
pep. although I'm not sure, I think they're using a third-party dial-in gateway
Guus
I'm guessing that they're pulling in the media through their SIP stack (but that's a total guess)
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
Bifrost Bothas left
j.rhas left
j.rhas joined
Guus
What's the state of each of the XMPP IOS clients?
zinid
quite bad
Guus
what's lacking in clients, specifically
zinid
ChatSecure is abandoned and Monal has strange distribution policy and full of bugs
Guus
_apart from money_ π
Guus
ChatSecure had a release last December?
zinid
that's what I'm told π
Ge0rG
Guus: maybe, but that release didn't fix some show stopper bugs. And general development seems to be down to yaxim speed
Guus
What are the show stopper bugs?
Guus
is someone in contact with their developers?
Guus
(are they here?)
Ge0rG
zinid: what's with the Monal distribution? The author fixed GDPR some months ago
Guus: I've chatted with Chris some time ago, but he looks too busy to push forward
Ge0rG
zinid: that's a problem invented by the French government, enforced by Apple...
zinid
Ge0rG, maybe
Guus
Ge0rG that's just one bug. That surely isn't stopping ChatSecure from being the Conversations equivalent on IOS?
Ge0rG
And regarding bugs, yeah, Monal is very fresh. Don't use it for MUCs yet.
Ge0rG
Guus: it's generally crappy, has a horrible backend store performance problem, doesn't quite get stream management right and is more abandoned than not. That bug is just my canary for a simple issue that's very annoying for users and easy to fix for a developer.
Ge0rG
But yeah, it's the Conversations equivalent on iOS! π€£π€£
Guus
What flavors do we have on IOS? ChatSecure, Monal, Beagle, ... ?
zinid
depends on flavors you prefer π
Guus
I'm primarily trying to see if there's one that's most likely to be pushed over the finish line
zinid
Monal, seems like
zinid
but I'm not sure you can communicate with the author
Ge0rG
there is also Xabber, which looks like a prototype mockup
zinid
Xabber doesn't even support MUC
Ge0rG
Guus: currently, Monal has the highest trajectory. However, the developer is on a multi-week trip right now
dwdhas joined
waqashas left
waqashas joined
waqashas left
Guus
What are the current issues with Monal?
Guus
MUC support, apparently?
dwdhas left
neshtaxmpphas left
zinid
Holger, did you try Monal recently?
Ge0rG
Guus: MUC support is very rudimentary, OMEMO is apparently very freshly in.
Ge0rG
I can't evaluate the latter.
lovetoxhas joined
404.cityhas joined
Lancehas joined
dwdhas joined
neshtaxmpphas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
Nekithas left
peterhas joined
j.rhas left
karoshihas left
karoshihas joined
Lancehas left
lumihas joined
vaulorhas left
vaulorhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
lskdjfhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
Lancehas joined
frainzhas left
frainzhas joined
ralphmhas left
waqashas joined
j.rhas joined
Steve Killehas left
Holger
zinid: Yes, kinda better than ChatSecure, not good of course. The author is more active right now.
Yagizahas left
dwdhas left
labdsfhas left
dwdhas joined
Steve Killehas joined
Alexhas left
lovetoxhas left
remkohas joined
remkohas left
remkohas joined
lovetoxhas joined
Alexhas joined
lovetoxhas left
Alexhas left
lovetoxhas joined
Alexhas joined
Guus
Holger: please elaborate
Holger
Guus: Better than ChatSecure because (a) I didn't see it loose messages and (b) it has that VoIP flag that allows it to use silent notifications (unlike ChatSecure which produces "New message!" notifications). Still not good because bugs (duplicates and whatnot), UI is meh, and MUC still rudimentary as Ge0rG said.
Guus
Tx
j.rhas left
j.rhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
wurstsalathas joined
alacerhas joined
alacerhas left
peter
Does anyone other than Guus and Ralph have expenses that need to be reimbursed from FOSDEM? I plan to go to the bank on Friday to send reimbursements.
j.rhas left
Guus
(nothing pops to mind - I think I reimbursed everyone that spent money that wasn't sponsoring - but I might be forgetting something)
peter
OK, thanks.
remkohas left
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
peterhas left
Guus
intosi - didn't you buy stuff for the stand, perhaps?
404.cityhas left
ralphmhas joined
melvohas joined
melvohas left
lskdjfhas left
labdsfhas joined
valohas left
waqashas left
waqashas joined
waqashas left
ThibGhas left
ThibGhas joined
intosihas left
404.cityhas joined
rion
> Xabber doesn't even support MUC
Their dev told me they invented something better than muc and mix
Ge0rG
Yeah. Sure.
moparisthebest
if it's been implemented once it's already better than MIX Β―\_(γ)_/Β―
lskdjfhas joined
debaclehas left
rion
π
peterhas joined
Nekithas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
labdsfhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
ralphmhas left
j.rhas joined
zinid
> Their dev told me they invented something better than muc and mix
the whole point of xmpp is standards, I don't see any points in inventing proprietary extensions, eventually you'll end up in supporting both: you proprietary wheel and the standard one
jonasβ
rion, they re-invented group chat 1.0
Zash
Isn't part of the point of XMPP the freedom to invent your own extensions?
zinid
Zash: in theory yes
zinid
in practice I already said how this will end up
zinid
and I know that because we at processone have such problems now
zinid
note that was against that shit from the beginning π
zinid
*that I
lskdjfhas left
lskdjfhas joined
zinid
we have currently proprietary SM, proprietary push, proprietary MUC. some customers want that or this, interaction between the extensions is a nightmare
peter
ouch
Zash
Interactions between standardized extensions can be complicated as well:)
zinid
Zash: true, and having proprietary don't help at all, quite contrary
peter
Just because you have the freedom to do something doesn't mean it's a good idea. ;-)
rion
> they re-invented group chat 1.0
I didn't see the protocol. But he promissed to add support to every piece of xmpp software.
labdsfhas joined
zinid
lol
peterhas left
404.cityhas left
thorstenhas joined
Andrew Nenakhov
> if it's been implemented once it's already better than MIX Β―\_(γ)_/Β―
It's already implemented, working on server and one client, covered with tests, has nicknames, badges, history search, messages retraction, flexible system of permissions and restrictions, can work pretty well with legacy clients, can work if participants server does not support it, can work with multiple devices (seamlessly even if one client does support it and another does not)
Andrew Nenakhov
Everyone interested may come and see. Like, right now.
labdsfhas left
Andrew Nenakhov
rion, since you are Russian I can give you access to Google doc
labdsfhas joined
Andrew Nenakhov
> What are the current issues with Monal?
My biggest issue with it was that it just doesn't work.
Ge0rG
It works much better than Xabber ios... π€·ββοΈ
moparisthebest
"implemented on 1 client and server that work together" makes it better than MIX regardless of anything else
moparisthebest
you can go into endless discussions about whether MIX is superior protocol-wise, but none of that really matters when it seems like no one will ever implement both ends
Andrew Nenakhov
Ge0rG,
> It works much better than Xabber ios... π€·ββοΈ
It is a false statement.
efrithas joined
Ge0rG
Andrew Nenakhov: less false than:
> My biggest issue with it was that it just doesn't work.
Andrew Nenakhov
Xabber for iOS is in pretty reliable state, and my Monal has never-ever received a push notification.
Ge0rG
I've tested both, latest Testflight
Andrew Nenakhov
Can record you a video like right now of monal and Xabber running concurrently
Ge0rG
Xabber didn't even connect to my account, had to register one on the Xabber server
Ge0rG
And even then nothing worked, most functions were just mockup
Andrew Nenakhov
Maybe some non standard configuration, whatever
Andrew Nenakhov
Ge0rG, liar )
Ge0rG
Yeah. Right.
Andrew Nenakhovhas left
Andrew Nenakhovhas joined
Ge0rG
Andrew Nenakhov [21:38]:
> Ge0rG, liar )
zinid, is it you?
lskdjfhas left
Ge0rG
Andrew Nenakhov: I take it as a hint that you don't want me to retest and open issues on the tracker? You are probably already fed up with my issues on Xabber android anyway... π
Andrew Nenakhov
No, I just want to to stop lying
jonasβ
Andrew Nenakhov, maybe donβt assume the worst right away
Andrew Nenakhov
Just a sec, uploading a video taken right now
jonasβ
instead, consider:
- there may be a situation with some devices which break things in your software
- there might be a language barrier of some type
- any other technical weirdness which might influence how the app is (not) working
lnjhas left
Andrew Nenakhov
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Z4kh4CF7nb8mvRUX7
lskdjfhas joined
Andrew Nenakhov
jonasβ, indeed it is possible that he has some weird setup for connecting. Besides ours, we test against jabber.ru, xmpp.jp and jabber.at servers.
rion
hm I thought that would be a video of a group chat.
Ge0rG
Andrew Nenakhov: my statement was as true as your statement about Monal. I've tested both, Monal worked, Xabber didn't. So who's lying?
Andrew Nenakhov
You are, of course.
lskdjfhas left
lskdjfhas joined
moparisthebest
my guess would be neither, isn't it perfectly possible both of you are telling the truth?
lskdjfhas left
lskdjfhas joined
Andrew Nenakhov
Send me a video of monal receiving push notification.
moparisthebest
surely you aren't saying Xabber works 100% of the time everywhere and has 0 bugs
Andrew Nenakhov
Like after 10 minutes of being in background.
lskdjfhas left
Andrew Nenakhov
moparisthebest, of course xabber has lots of bugs
lskdjfhas joined
Andrew Nenakhov
But calling it a mock-up opposing to monal, it's an insult
Ge0rG
Andrew Nenakhov: Monal is using VoIP priority push. Works reliably for me even when I kill it
Andrew Nenakhov
My managers suffered for years with monal
Ge0rG
Andrew Nenakhov: my iPhone isn't charged and hidden somewhere in a bag
Ge0rG
Andrew Nenakhov: Monal significantly improved in the last two or three months
Ge0rG
Andrew Nenakhov: but calling me a liar won't make me create a demo video just for you, sorry.
labdsfhas left
efrithas left
j.rhas left
j.rhas joined
Andrew Nenakhov
Whatever
intosihas joined
lovetox
hug it out :D
intosi
I spent a few euros, but not worth the trouble. See it as sponsorship.
moparisthebest
Andrew Nenakhov, means nothing coming from me of course, but I also tend to like running code first, specs later, just hoping you release specs soon and are open for feedback etc :D
intosi
^ Guus
Andrew Nenakhov
> hm I thought that would be a video of a group chat.
Left my laptop in the office,so not now. However, group chats can be experienced live on https://web.xabber.com/develop/ right now
lskdjfhas left
lskdjfhas joined
Andrew Nenakhov
moparisthebest, I'm very open for feedback
!xsf_Martinhas left
!xsf_Martinhas joined
lskdjfhas left
lskdjfhas joined
lskdjfhas left
lskdjfhas joined
Andrew Nenakhov
Ge0rG, well, I've installed monal just now, set up my account, waited till roster loads, pressed home button.
nycohas joined
Andrew Nenakhov
10 seconds later I send a message... And 2 minutes later it's still not delivered.
moparisthebest
Andrew Nenakhov, sorry if I missed it but are the specs someplace public?
Andrew Nenakhov
I'm not surprised. I never saw it work even remotely reliable. Not that pushes not at all work, sometimes am hour later it explodes and loads something. But ... Very unpredictable
zinid
Andrew Nenakhov: nobody will implement non-standard extension, just accept it
Ge0rG
Andrew Nenakhov: Testflight or store? Do you have the push XEP active on your server.
Andrew Nenakhov
moparisthebest, you see, it's in Google doc, can share it but it's all in Russian
zinid
Andrew Nenakhov: I told you that already btw π
Andrew Nenakhov
Ge0rG, store, 0357 supported
moparisthebest
zinid, that's no problem if he plans to standardize it, you should submit it as a XEP as soon as you can Andrew Nenakhov
zinid
also, MIX will be released with ejabberd 19.02 next week, so "nobody implemented it" won't hold anymore
Andrew Nenakhov
zinid, non standard extensions can very well become one.of course xsf can still pursue that dream of mix or whatever.
zinid
Andrew Nenakhov: too late, mix will become a thing
Andrew Nenakhov
Anyway our group chats has pretty decent compatibility with any legacy client
zinid
ejabberd and conversations will implement it and it is documented within the xsf
moparisthebest
zinid, which clients work with ejabberd 19.02 MIX ?
zinid
moparisthebest: conversations branch
MattJ
zinid, but nobody can use it because you don't know if everyone else's server supports it
MattJ
(or client)
moparisthebest
interesting, so then maybe it's no longer "no one implements it" that would be a step forward
moparisthebest
surprising for a 4+ year old XEP
moparisthebest
in a good way
zinid
Andrew Nenakhov: I suggested you to release a xep back then, you did not
Andrew Nenakhov
Our group chat can be installed on any serer )
lovetox
Problem is almost never the XEP itself in my expierience, its just that devs have no time for experiments
moparisthebest
still can release a XEP, who knows, maybe it's far superior protocol-wise to MIX
thorstenhas left
Andrew Nenakhov
zinid, it wasn't ready. Also my xep guy is fucking seriously ill for the last couple of months
remkohas joined
zinid
I wonder why I cannot cite MattJ, seems like he is not joined π
MattJ
Blame MUC :)
Ge0rG
zinid: welcome to GC1.0
labdsfhas joined
flow
MattJ, "nobody can use it" appears exaggeratedβ¦
MattJ
flow, hmm?
flow
MattJ, your response to zinids annoucement that ejabberd will support MIX
MattJ
I think it's fine (even good) for closed environments, custom clients, etc.
lovetox
... i think he meant why you think that
flow
I hope that I, using ejabberd, will be able to join a MIX at some other ejabberd once it is released and i've updated my ejabberd
lovetox
:D
MattJ
flow, you will, of course
MattJ
But you'll be alone :)
flow
Then I hope that I am not nobody :)
MattJ
As soon as you want to invite someone from another server, either their server or their client (or one of their clients) won't support MIX
flow
Right, but I am willing to continue with that experiment
lovetox
does the other server need support?
lovetox
honest question i didnt read all the XEPs yet
flow
It sure would be nice if a MUC successor wouldn't require home-server support
Ge0rG
I'm so glad I demanded full muc compatibility back then.
MattJ
flow, please don't think that I'm not happy that people are experimenting, or implementing MIX
flow
And maybe someone will come up with a solution that does not and that solution experiences high traction in means of implementations
Andrew Nenakhov
flow, xabber gruop chat does not require home server support
MattJ
I'm glad that something is finally coming of all the work that has been put into it
MattJ
But it doesn't change this simple fact that it is badly designed if we ever want to see it widely adopted on the network
MattJ
(within the next 5-10 years)
Ge0rG
MattJ [22:15]:
> But it doesn't change this simple fact that it is badly designed.
There, I fixed it.
flow
Andrew Nenakhov, that is great, but I was told that the spec is only in russian? That maybe hurts adoption a bit outside the native speakers
MattJ
Ge0rG, I don't think it's all that bad, but it made different design choices to MUC
valohas joined
flow
MattJ, and by badly designed you mean the design as whole or the fact that it requires home server support?
MattJ
Ge0rG, if you're developing certain kinds of closed group chat, I think it's pretty neat to have... compared to needing to implement all the problems MUC has for those environments
Ge0rG
MattJ: I think the proxy JID "feature" is adding huge complexity for a very small user group.
MattJ
flow, mainly just the latter
flow
Then that isn't bad design in my eyes. It is one of two possibly design choices with that regard, each with their pros and cons
Andrew Nenakhov
flow, we just don't have time to translate it. And we planned to start translating once it's really final
flow
I personally would make the same decission. But I would also encourage other approaches. Ultimately it is not the XEP, not the council but the ecosystem which determines the survivor
oli
xmpp => just amazing
MattJ
flow, please re-read what I wrote
MattJ
flow, I didn't say it was "bad design." I said it was "badly designed if we ever want to see it widely adopted on the network"
MattJ
I said in a later message that I think it is great for some use-cases
oli
so we will have muc and mix and the xabber-stuff-which-is-the-best and some other upcoming alternatives, because mix is badly designed for wide adoption
flow
MattJ, ah yes, ok, sorry, but I am also not sure about that. The implementation effort for MIX-PAM is manageable
Marandahas left
Marandahas joined
flow
at least that is my impression
MattJ
flow, it's not just about implementation, it's about deployment
flow
Ok, but you have to deploy anything that is new, how is MIX different?
MattJ
Because many of the problems with MUC can be solved in backwards-compatible ways
MattJ
which allows for progressively improving the experience, as users upgrade their clients, etc.
remkohas left
MattJ
As it is right now, MUC will still be a fact of life for everyone until we reach some high percentage of MIX support in clients/servers in years to come
flow
That is probably true, and I fully support the efforts put into MUC.
goffihas left
flow
Yep, fully aggree (minus the timeframe)
MattJ
and if everyone is using MUC daily, because MIX is unusable for general-purpose chats, there isn't much to motivate developers (assume client developers) to maintain both MUC and MIX in their clients
flow
It could be 5+ years, could also be 2-3 years
MattJ
Let me know how you plan to upgrade all those Pidgin users who still don't have MAM :)
MattJ
which is a significant portion of the XMPP userbase, like it or not
flow
apt remove pidgin
intosihas left
MattJ
It doesn't work like that, but we all wish it did
MattJ
I spoke to multiple people at FOSDEM who directly went from Pidgin+XMPP -> Matrix
MattJ
because Pidgin was their experience of XMPP, and it was rubbish
flow
No yes, of course, but I am not arguing against MUC and MUC+, but for being adventurous and progressive regarding a new persistent groupchat protocol
MattJ
Pidgin was an extremely popular client, most people who used XMPP "back in the day" used it, and don't keep up with modern client development like everyone in this room does
flow
which may or may not be MIX
MattJ
This room is a bubble in the XMPP sphere, trust me, out there it's Pidgin all the way
MattJ
(ok, maybe I exaggerate a little here :) )
flow
No I trust you, I was also a pidgin user when I was in the computer room at my university
MattJ
But you can't underestimate the deployed userbase. Except for group chats to be used only by XSF members, you're basically always going to have at least one occupant who isn't able to join a MIX room
MattJ
for quite some time to come
MattJ
Obviously the sooner we get the ball rolling with MIX, the sooner we can switch to it
flow
That is why I hope for multi protcol rooms
MattJ
Which is why I'm glad it now has implementations
MattJ
Yes, multi-protocol rooms will help somewhat
MattJ
But if you can access every MIX room via MUC, and MUC is already implemented and compatible with every server... why maintain two group chat implementations in every client?
MattJ
It's a hard sell if you ask me
lskdjfhas left
lskdjfhas joined
lskdjfhas left
flow
Well I am speculating that MIX(like) protocols provide better posibilities than MUC when it comes to hibernated mobile devices
lskdjfhas joined
lskdjfhas left
flow
Or for huge participant rooms where you often do not want pushes of every message, and only read the backlog when you open the window of the channel/room
MattJ
For sure
MattJ
But if over the next year we solve both those things for MUC...
flow
That is the point, I am not sure if they are solvable, or solvable in I way I would like
flow
There where a lot of improvements to MUC in the past years, but I could imagine that at some point there is just no more one could fix without either sacrificing backwards compatibility *or* really dirty hacks
oli
you only need one android, one ios and one cross platform desktop client
Andrew Nenakhov
MUC is based on flawed ideas and must be destroyed.
flow
I could be wrong, that is why I say "let's go down both holes and see where we come out"
Andrew Nenakhov
Xmpp does not have 2-5 years for this. Our ship is burning.
Andrew Nenakhov
And is going to be overtaken by matrix or something else if nothing changes
edhelashas left
edhelashas joined
zinid
Andrew Nenakhov: relax, xmpp is in zombie mode now just like IRC π
zinid
zombies cannot die
lovetox
yeah also the more people adopt it the more clients are out there, if they get another server impl except the reference
lovetox
they will suffer the same problems as xmpp
lovetox
its easy to make something work when everyone uses the same server software
lovetox
we know this since whatsapp
!xsf_Martinhas left
zinid
and the same version of the same client btw
lovetox
zinid, to be fair there are more than one client
pep.
"MattJ> I spoke to multiple people at FOSDEM who directly went from Pidgin+XMPP -> Matrix" I wonder how the Matrix support for libpurple is
lovetox
but yes probably most use the same
Andrew Nenakhov
lovetox, they'll suffer, no doubt, but as a protocol that has already won, not as competotor
pep.
Or did they change clients entirely
pep.
In which case they could have just changed XMPP clients..
lovetox
why Andrew Nenakhov ?
pep.
Guus, here is an actionable item for you, put money on pidgin XMPP support :P
zinid
> lovetox, they'll suffer, no doubt, but as a protocol that has already won, not as competotor
even so, I don't see how this can bother us, xmpp has always been a marginal protocol, what has been changed?
Guus
pep.: I was thinking the same
lovetox
yeah xmpp is already in a very small niche
pep.
If you manage to revive libpurple's XMPP support, then finally we'll all stop ranting about it, and people might be a bit happier
Andrew Nenakhov
Because they have an image of a shiny new protocol that currently has no interoperability problems and can be seen as a replacement for stale old not hipster friendly xmpp
zinid
Andrew Nenakhov: so good luck to them
lovetox
yeah its called hype
wurstsalathas left
Andrew Nenakhov
Niche status won't change if xmpp does not roll out something that appeases to a wider audience
lovetox
you can also learn a new programming language every year
lovetox
because they invent something new that beats all the other
zinid
Andrew Nenakhov: but it will not, I already ranted about this yesterday in another conference
lovetox
but truth is the people that write C since 20 years will probably never out of a job
zinid
xmpp is for nerds and their relatives, we just need to accept this and go this line
lovetox
haha i like it zinid :D
zinid
I don't see the problem here π
zinid
you cannot fight WhatsApp or Google, that's not our league
lovetox
yeah me too, there are billions that use whatsapp
Andrew Nenakhov
zinid, I plan to ruin your nerdy lair.
zinid
Andrew Nenakhov: let me know when you succeed
Andrew Nenakhov
:) ok
Andrew Nenakhov
lovetox, analogy between computer languages and social networks is not valid.
oli
Andrew Nenakhov: xabber group chat does not require home server support, but uses some group server? is the group server (component) open source?
Andrew Nenakhov
It will be open source, yes.
Andrew Nenakhov
If anyone's interested we can ship test version tomorrow
Andrew Nenakhov
It works with a central group chat server. We have ideas to make it distributed in the future, nothing seems to prevent that architecturally, but not all at once
lskdjfhas joined
oli
distributed means matrix style?
Andrew Nenakhov
I don't know matrix style exactly. )
zinid
stupid full replica copying
Andrew Nenakhov
Thing is, our group chat has a fixed jid. If that server dies, .. it's unreachable via that jid
Tobiashas left
lskdjfhas left
lskdjfhas joined
Andrew Nenakhov
In theory we can make failover jids so clients can msg any of those but it's clumsy.
Andrew Nenakhov
zinid, how do they address group chats in matrix? I had an impression they have centralized index (or indexes) to discover channels
zinid
Andrew Nenakhov: I am not sure, but looks like they just replicate room history, just like rsync
Andrew Nenakhov
Replicate between what? Servers? Every server in federation has own chat history?
When we were discussing architecture of our Groupchats, thought experiment ran into too many potential problems, especially when retracting messages, and syncing changes and accounting for possibility of s2s failure
edhelas
:( sorry
zinid
Andrew Nenakhov: distributed replication is hard
zinid
especially when you try to invent it from scratch π
Andrew Nenakhov
Yes. And not really necessary.
lskdjfhas left
lskdjfhas joined
lskdjfhas left
lskdjfhas joined
zinid
Andrew Nenakhov: modern jabber implements distributed replication exactly (using xmpp as a transport), so it's kinda necessary
Nekithas left
lskdjfhas left
lskdjfhas joined
Andrew Nenakhov
Twitter survived 7% total downtime in 2009, any decent server admin can achieve just 5% downtime
zinid
not everyone realizes this
lskdjfhas left
lskdjfhas joined
lskdjfhas left
lskdjfhas joined
lskdjfhas left
lskdjfhas joined
lskdjfhas left
zinid
> Twitter survived 7% total downtime in 2009, any decent server admin can achieve just 5% downtime
yeah, tell that to chatme.im π
zinid
is it alive yet btw? π€
moparisthebesthas left
Andrew Nenakhov
Never heard of chatme.im
zinid
Andrew Nenakhov: it's from operators@ mail list π
zinid
Andrew Nenakhov: I use it as an example of xmpp fragility
edhelas
zinid you have the link ?
edhelas
found it
blablahas left
edhelas
that's also why I'm moving jappix.com and fr.movim.eu :D they were hosted on the same server as chatme.im
edhelas
the admin just turned of the server without any notices, so I just asked him to turn it on again for a few days to let me migrate things before it's definitely stopped
moparisthebesthas joined
jeroenhas joined
jeroenhas left
zinid
yeah, my point is that from common userβ’ perspective Twitter or WhatsApp is more stable
zinid
than any xmpp server
wurstsalathas joined
Andrew Nenakhov
Current Twitter is extremely stable.
Andrew Nenakhov
Failwhale years were loooong ago
zinid
Andrew Nenakhov: true, and it's possible to build extremely stable xmpp service, just it requires a lot of work
zinid
no free-time admins can do that
Andrew Nenakhov
@xabber.org had two major downtimes in 1.5 years, both caused by Linode
Andrew Nenakhov
Of course it is maintained by paid admin.
zinid
Andrew Nenakhov: sure, because you're hosted in the same place, no diversity
Andrew Nenakhov
We have a backup xmpp server on digitalocean but so far sole DB server, can't make it failover because of reasonz
zinid
I understand those reasons π
zinid
I mean no blame, it's hard
Andrew Nenakhov
)) there is one more silly reason you don't know but I'm to ashamed to tell about it in public