XSF Discussion - 2019-02-20


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  131. goffi

    https://dot.kde.org/2019/02/20/kde-migrating-matrix

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  135. zinid

    > Other alternatives, such as Telegram, Slack and Discord, although feature-rich, are centralized and built around closed-source technologies and offer even less control than IRC. Pretending XMPP doesn't exist

  136. zinid

    btw, they used to have an XMPP server

  137. Seve

    My first or second account was on their server

  138. Seve

    They kind of ignored me when I tried to approach them, so this does not surprise me

  139. Seve

    Sad news in my opinion but it is up to them in the end

  140. zinid

    I personally don't care, KDE is not representative

  141. !xsf_Martin

    What is a KDE?

  142. Seve

    I made this table with help from others here https://github.com/SeveFP/KDE_IM_Requirements/wiki/XMPP-Table and sent it to them and try to see if we could do something together but they didn't show any interest on it

  143. Seve

    when they announced they wanted to move to some solution

  144. Guus

    Let's try to focus on increasing our exposure, instead of discussing the exposure of Matrix. Let's learn from what they do right.

  145. Guus

    (That's actually a nice table, Seve!)

  146. goffi

    Guus: they have money

  147. goffi

    I mean, we could have polished UIs if more people were working full time on XMPP

  148. Guus

    Goffi: given that there are _several_ commercial providers of XMPP solutions: we have money too.

  149. goffi

    but I know only 2 clients which can do this: Conversations and Converse, and both are only done by one people as far as I know.

  150. Guus

    And there are ways to gain more money (we'll discuss this in upcoming board meetings too)

  151. Guus

    Try to think of solutions, not of problems.

  152. goffi

    you need to know the problem to find a solution

  153. Guus

    You identified two recurring issues: lack of money (which I doubt we have, to be honest), and a need to improve UI / UX in our clients.

  154. Guus

    I'll add a third one: we're not showing off enough of what we can do.

  155. goffi

    we have money in servers, not in clients.

  156. Guus

    "not having money" is not a problem. It's something that prevents us from finding some easy solutions.

  157. Guus

    "not having a good UI" is a problem.

  158. Guus

    let's worry about that.

  159. Guus

    I've tried reaching out to OpenSourceDesign, where I need to to follow ups

  160. Guus

    Ge0rG et al. are making progress on UX guidelines

  161. goffi

    Guus: it's link to being able to work full time. You need time to focus on polishing.

  162. goffi

    linked*

  163. Guus

    goffi that helps, but isn't going to fix UI/UX things. You need expertise, too.

  164. Guus

    where do we find these?

  165. Guus

    do we integrate our solutions at customers, where such expertise is available?

  166. Guus

    maybe we can ask for help there.

  167. Guus

    We have several pretty successful projects that are making money. Maybe we can start sharing experience on how to do that, so that more projects can reach that level.

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  169. Guus

    We can think of plenty of things that can be effective. That's way more stimulating that just being jealous at Matrix for "having money".

  170. Guus

    I'm still convinced that the XMPP proposition is at least as good as Matrix's one. So with that in mind, we must be able to at least match what they're doing.

  171. Guus

    but we'll have to put in the effort.

  172. Guus

    I'm going to visit a commercial org tomorrow, that I've met at FOSDEM. They expressed interest in stimulating XMPP. They offered to host a sprint, and they like to see the UX of the IOS clients to be improved. We'll discuss that tomorrow.

  173. Guus

    let's find more of these people, and reach out!

  174. goffi

    Guus: who's jealous ? it's not about being jealous, it's about explaining why they have more polished UI and attraction.

  175. pep.

    Guus, oh is that the one that we discussed with?

  176. Guus

    let's do more outreach - write more blog post, show off stuff that we _can_ do moar, better, faster.

  177. Guus

    goffi: so let's fix that. But I'm convinced that there's a level of jealousy in the XMPP community. In some MUCs, "matrix" is mentioned more than the topic of the MUC, which I think is such a shame.

  178. Guus

    pep. the two guys who talked to you after your presentation, yes

  179. goffi

    There have been lot ot unfair attacks from Matrix community (and leaders) toward XMPP one, specially at the beginning (it's slightly better now), so there have been reactions to that. And it's important to know what going around in other protocols/software.

  180. Guus

    Could someone help me get job postings at https://opensourcedesign.net/ for clients that want/need help from designers?

  181. pep.

    I want help from them as a server operator, for now :x I need to post that someday

  182. Guus

    please, do!

  183. zinid

    I agree with goffi - money is the problem

  184. zinid

    a few full time devs and you get your UI

  185. zinid

    and we obviously don't have money, I don't understand why Guus said the opposite

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  188. Guus

    zinid Money is not a problem, it offers a possible solution to a problem.

  189. pep.

    We do critically lack resources

  190. pep.

    At least in the public part of the community

  191. Guus

    so, let's find resources.

  192. zinid

    Guus, money is the obvious way to get human resources

  193. zinid

    Guus, other methods have failed

  194. zinid

    we tried a lot of them in the past 15 years

  195. Guus

    don't get me wrong: I'm not saying that we should not try to get more money. That's why I put this (sponsoring, financing) on the agenda of the board again. But I am sure that we can find more ways to attack the problem.

  196. pep.

    Guus, well that boils down to other people spending this money (time)

  197. pep.

    s/other //

  198. Guus

    pep. As XMPP is used pretty much everywhere, that must be possible to do.

  199. pep.

    All the sprints we do are not free, for example, time, transportation, accomodations, that's all on our own. Even if at the end I'm happy to do it, that comes with a cost

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  201. Guus

    I think the sprints are great to have, and I ❤ the people spending time/resources to make them happen!

  202. Guus

    Do we have employers (or customers) that are somehow invested in XMPP, and have UI/UX employees that they can spare for a day per week?

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  204. Guus

    commercial organizations do OSS sponsoring all the time. This could be one way of doing that.

  205. zinid

    > spare for a day per week? That's not how development works

  206. zinid

    you need some focus and dedication in order to produce something valuable

  207. Guus

    zinid: then find a collaboration that works better.

  208. pep.

    It's already better than nothing.

  209. Guus

    but in any case, 1 day per week is better than 0 days per week.

  210. zinid

    I don't buy that argument honestly, I hear it a lot

  211. Guus

    my point is: let's try to find ways to pull in resources.

  212. pep.

    And that's already how lots of the free software projects around here work

  213. zinid

    what you can say is 1 > 0, that's it

  214. Guus

    zinid please offer better solutions then!

  215. Guus

    I'm open to anything

  216. Guus

    as long as it's not "we don't have money so we're doomed"

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  218. goffi

    I'm working part time (80%), that mean that I have one day a week I pay on my own to work on my project, and I'm overwhelmed and have no time for now to work on UI polishing. I don't say we are doomed, but I say it's not sustainable on the long run without paid full time dev.

  219. Guus

    pep. I'm interested in your reason for searching for UI/UX experts as a server operator. What exactly would you like to see improved there?

  220. pep.

    See my wonderful design skills: https://cluxia.eu/

  221. pep.

    I'd like to have a color theme / logo

  222. pep.

    I have a few ideas, but no clue how to put that together

  223. Guus

    that seems like a solvable problem 🙂

  224. Seve

    goffi, I'm guessing somebody else apart from you working on the project would also help

  225. Seve

    I understand is hard to find collaboration, I know

  226. Guus

    pep. I think I can set you up with someone that can improve that page

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  228. Guus

    pep. could you send me a brief "this is what I would like to happen" summary?

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  230. pep.

    Sure I'll try to write something down. Thanks

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  232. Ge0rG

    > The requested page "/2019/02/20/kde-migrating-matrix" could not be found. Looks like somebody pulled the plug

  233. Ge0rG

    Guus: "we have money" is illusive, because we as the XSF have a complex process to access that money, and it is (rightfully) demanded that the money is spent in a fair and impartial way. We can't just throw 10k€ at improving Monal, even if we have consensus that we badly need a good iOS client, nor can we throw 10k€ at me implementing my favorite yaxim feature.

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  235. Ge0rG

    I can see how sponsoring (open-access) Sprints and Summits and conferences is a Good Thing.

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  237. Ge0rG

    But this only goes so far in bringing forward XMPP

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  240. Guus

    Ge0rG all true. On top of the XSF getting more money, I'd also like to set up a way for individual projects to share knowledge about making money for themselves.

  241. Guus

    Some projects are more successful than others.

  242. Seve

    We for sure can help to promote crowdfunding campaigns though, if Monal has one, for example

  243. Guus

    We can learn from eachother there.

  244. Ge0rG

    Guus: I know I'm sounding like a broken record, but this would be a great task for The Jabber Software Foundation™

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  246. Guus

    Ge0rG make it happen, please.

  247. pep.

    Ge0rG, you mean sponsoring etc.? Or teaching people how to get money

  248. pep.

    Because I also want in on these tips

  249. Ge0rG

    Guus: I learned the hard way that You Shall Not Create A Jabber Org.

  250. Guus

    Ge0rG doesn't stop you from preparing to get people together, start collecting / sharing information, right?

  251. Ge0rG

    pep.: promoting sponsorship awareness as well as redistributing money

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  253. Guus

    the name is just a name.

  254. pep.

    Ge0rG, yeah well that was discussed at the summit, and I think we can do something with what we started already

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  256. Guus

    \o/ progress!

  257. pep.

    I'm patiently awaiting (I long) for the time I have _any_ time to put in it.. hopefully soon enough.

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  259. goffi

    Guus: I agree about sharing knowledge, but people may fear to see councurent projects raising and taking there grants/customers.

  260. goffi

    their*

  261. Guus

    goffi we don't know before we try.

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  263. Ge0rG

    Guus: what pep. said. We all have things on our TODO lists. But they always get overridden with higher-priority non-XMPP things.

  264. Guus

    goffi I'm also more thinking of sharing _techniques_ rather than _customers_

  265. Ge0rG

    Ironically, some of us might be able to invest more time if it were paid ;)

  266. Guus

    to give a very practical example

  267. Ge0rG

    So does anyone have a cache of https://dot.kde.org/2019/02/20/kde-migrating-matrix - the page was removed :(

  268. Guus

    someone told me it'd be a good idea to have a 'professional services' section on the igniterealtime website, so that people that search for ways to spend money on Openfire, Smack, etc would find people willing to accept money.

  269. Guus

    we put up a very basic section: I've already been approached through that a couple of times in the last few weeks alone.

  270. Ge0rG

    Guus: what do I need to do to get enlisted there?

  271. Ge0rG

    ...with my employer's hat on?

  272. Guus

    Ge0rG a credible link as a service provider of ignite-realtime related projects.

  273. goffi

    Guus: could the XSF help to put people willing to spend money for service/feature reach people offering them? Like a dedicate page on XMPP.org?

  274. Guus

    (who's your employer?)

  275. Ge0rG

    Guus: https://rt-solutions.de/en/

  276. Guus

    goffi I don't know - we can consider it.

  277. Guus

    Ge0rG from a quick browse on the website, I'm not seeing obvious Openfire/Smack service providing offerings?

  278. Ge0rG

    Guus: as a person, I'm heavily invested in Smack (and obviously experienced in XMPP as a whole), but there is no way to rent me out except via my employer.

  279. Ge0rG

    Guus: the latter is expensive, and heavily targeted at German companies, but there is a market for that, and if you need some kind of page on our homepage about competent XMPP support (I'd prefer XMPP over specific Ignite projects if possible), I can probably make it happen.

  280. Guus

    Ge0rG the way that we've set up that page at IgniteRealtime, we expect that visitors of the 'professional support' page to be searching for very specific solutions / expertise. So, if you'd like to be listed there, I suggest you have a landing page at your employers site, that lists the (Smack-based) services that you can provide.

  281. Guus

    I shared the IgniteRealtime "professional support" thingy as an example of how other OSS projects could also try to attract more money.

  282. Guus

    I'm not saying that this is the only solution. goffi already suggested having something that's more XMPP-generic - which seems to suit you better.

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  286. Guus

    So, although I'd certainly consider adding your company to the Ignite listing, I'm also/primarily using this as an example of things that other projects could also do.

  287. Guus

    and no, that won't fix all of our problems overnight

  288. Guus

    but by sharing ideas like this, we _will_ improve things.

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  296. Guus

    goffi From a quick browse, I'm not finding a way for me to hire someone on my salut-a-toi problems (if I have one), at https://salut-a-toi.org/

  297. Guus

    Maybe considering adding that to the website?

  298. Guus

    Maybe consider adding that to the website?

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  301. goffi

    Guus: yes, I'm currently redoing the website so I can add this. But SàT itself was not ready so far to be used in production, it should be alright starting with the incoming release.

  302. goffi

    We've made a couple of strategic mistakes, starting by not doing the famous "release early, realease often"

  303. Guus

    goffi I have no experience with it, so I can't judge. One thing that I can say is that I am sometimes amazed at how people use pre-release, not-ready stuff in production anyway 🙂

  304. pep.

    Wait, isn't that what production means? :)

  305. Guus

    pep. you also deploy on Fridays, don't you?

  306. pep.

    I deploy on weekends, even worse

  307. goffi

    yes, that what one of my friend well aware of business stuff told me: you should not wait to have something bullet proof, nobody does.

  308. Guus

    goffi sounds like you have a friend that could offer ideas to more of the XMPP community!

  309. zinid

    > zinid please offer better solutions then! > I'm open to anything > as long as it's not "we don't have money so we're doomed" Guus: I have no solutions except money, and even that is not easy to collect and redistribute

  310. Guus

    maybe you should invite him to share ideas

  311. Guus

    zinid I just shared an idea on how to make money. We can use more ideas like that.

  312. goffi

    Guus: he already wrote interesting reads on his blog: https://blog.addictedtointer.net/2017/09/26/goodbye-cozy/

  313. Guus

    I'll share another one. I've heard of several people in companies that would like to 'sponsor' an open source project that they're using, but setting up sponsoring through their corporate procedures is difficult (not standardized). What is, however, easy for them to do, is to buy a 'support contract'. So, OSS projects could start offering 'support contracts' with the idea that this really is just sponsoring.

  314. Guus

    I'm currently not doing that, so I can't tell if it's effective - but again, it's somethign that you might consider for your project.

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  320. Guus

    As a third, and final, idea / food for thought: I've learned about idea 1 and 2 when I met up with people at either FOSDEM or (what then was not yet called) sprints. I highly recommend getting together like that!

  321. Ge0rG

    Guus: those things should be documented in the xdf maybe?

  322. Ge0rG

    https://xmpp-developers.foundation

  323. Guus

    Maybe. Go for it. Not sure if these are thoughts to be stamped as 'approved by the XDF'.

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  327. Guus

    Ge0rG it's discourse link is broken: https://discourse.xmpp-developers.foundation/

  328. Ge0rG

    Somebody needs to open an issue on https://github.com/XMPP-Developers-Foundation/website I suppose

  329. pep.

    I am already ready to oppose the use of discourse, fwiw

  330. pep.

    We already have a venue for that, which is jdev@

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  332. Guus

    https://github.com/XMPP-Developers-Foundation/website/issues/1

  333. pep.

    Which I was planning to discuss with daniel

  334. Ge0rG

    is jdev@ publically logged?

  335. pep.

    I mean the ML

  336. Ge0rG

    Ah.

  337. pep.

    Maybe it's time to revive it instead of pretending it's not there

  338. Guus

    off to lunch with me.

  339. Ge0rG

    There were six mails this year.

  340. Ge0rG

    Lunch is an awesome idea. BBL

  341. pep.

    Or.. if you really want to kill that list, it's not impossible to have bulletin boards on XMPP, and goffi has a barebone implementation of one in SàT. Porting discourse to XMPP would be another idea.

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  343. Guus

    pep.: Flow mentioned something like that for Ignite Realtime earlier

  344. Guus

    Using smack

  345. pep.

    Like which part?

  346. Guus

    XMPP Discourse integration

  347. pep.

    I see

  348. pep.

    By that I meant not just authentication right

  349. pep.

    I also meant using XMPP as the storage backend (pubsub)

  350. Guus

    I think Flows Idea was to post replies to discourse, using XMPP

  351. pep.

    Well if you have it using pubsub, yes that'd be possible

  352. Guus

    I think it already offers an API that you can hook an XMPP client library in

  353. Guus

    Unsure, talk to Flow. 😉

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  358. pep.

    The thing is that I'd just want discourse to be a dumb frontend

  359. Ge0rG

    Then we could use xmpp as the transport and matrix as the backend! 😜

  360. Guus

    Unsure if that is achievable

  361. MattJ

    It is if you write it in Lua

  362. goffi

    :D

  363. goffi

    but that's a point which is annoying me a bit, we have tools not perfect but usable and which can be easily improved, and community want to use non XMPP software instead. How can we promote XMPP if the community itself doesn't use it?

  364. goffi

    (lunch time)

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  383. Seve

    XMPP based forums is something I dream with since long time ago actually, I will ping you goffi I think, I'm really curious

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  385. jonas’

    we do use XMPP, don’t we?

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  390. zinid

    jonas’, how is jabbercat doing?

  391. zinid

    oh, 2 months without a single commit

  392. pep.

    It's dead! Don't use it it's unmaintained!!1!1

  393. zinid

    I won't, okay

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  395. debacle

    Is there anybody in the XMPP community who does *not* have their very own client? That's so nice about XMPP: You can choose betwenn many, many clients, all bad in their own way. Fixing issues would be boring, so why not write a new one?

  396. Guus

    ME!

  397. Guus

    but I have my own server. Does that count?

  398. MattJ

    Real server devs have their own client too

  399. debacle

    And I have only a bot.

  400. alameyo

    only one client? you need one on each platform

  401. Guus

    Also, I'm wrapping every web-based client that I can find as a plugin... 😛

  402. Ge0rG

    MattJ: what's yours? :D

  403. MattJ

    clix, for the command-line

  404. pep.

    Also scansion?

  405. MattJ

    scansion counts too, I guess :)

  406. MattJ

    But isn't for users

  407. Ge0rG

    ...as opposed to clix, right?

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  409. MattJ

    Absolutely :)

  410. Ge0rG

    Uhm. Yeah.

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  413. jonas’

    zinid, currently the improvements are more happening in aioxmpp ;)

  414. jonas’

    looking forward to implement MIX there and then in JC

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  416. zinid

    jonas’, you need to work full time on JC, JSF (created by Ge0rG) will pay you

  417. Ge0rG

    zinid: and you will pay the JSF?

  418. zinid

    Ge0rG, no, I'm affiliated, I cannot pay, I can only receive

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  425. jonas’

    zinid, sounds like a plan

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  428. zinid

    btw, the current state of matrix.org patreon is ~$3800 per month

  429. zinid

    I wonder if the xsf can collect similar money

  430. debacle

    jonas' why doesn't JC work on JC? :)

  431. Alex

    > I wonder if the xsf can collect similar money we easily can

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  434. zinid

    Alex: I don't find the xsf at patreon 😁

  435. zinid

    I see only sponsoring page where the amount starts at $1000

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  438. goffi

    Seve: https://www.libervia.org/forums/list it's really basic but working. The hierarchy of forums is stored in a pubsub node linked to the language (so you can have different topics in different languages), and then it's XEP-0277 blog nodes with open access. Experimentation is concluant, so that one of the protoXEP I need to write and propose.

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  455. flow

    Ge0rG, looks like the blog post was edited: https://dot.kde.org/2019/02/20/kde-adding-matrix-its-im-framework

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  475. pep.

    They say matrix provides "presence" in that article, I wonder what they mean by that

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  477. pep.

    Is it just the status? online/unavailable/offline/whatever

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  506. jonas’

    Ge0rG, can you confirm real quick that you’re happy with this version of the '156 diff? https://github.com/xsf/xeps/commit/160145b9152fbae62620637a70830e91b597987e

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  524. Ge0rG

    jonas’: 👍

  525. jonas’

    non-emoji please

  526. Ge0rG

    jonas’: yes

  527. jonas’

    thx

  528. Ge0rG

    jonas’: the English is a bit bumpy, but I'm OK with the content

  529. jonas’

    feel free to fix the former

  530. Ge0rG

    Or... I'll just go back to work

  531. jonas’

    or that

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  540. pep.

    Ge0rG, also to answer your question, http://logs.jabber.org/jdev@conference.jabber.org.html, but that seems to have stopped in 2015, not sure why

  541. pep.

    I wonder what this was, http://logs.jabber.org/devcon@conference.jabber.org.html

  542. pep.

    hmm, and https seems borked: "The certificate is only valid for the following names: logs.xmpp.org, muc.xmpp.org, www.xmpp.org, xmpp.org"

  543. pep.

    ohhh, logs.xmpp.org ~

  544. pep.

    less links though :(

  545. pep.

    What's techreview@muc.xmpp.org?

  546. pep.

    No description, no name

  547. pep.

    hmm, and topic says "visit xmpp:xsf@muc.xmpp.org?join instead"

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  569. pep.

    https://jitsi.org/news/telephony-support-on-meet-jit-si/ anybody tried their gateway support? Also is it possible to self-host that dial-in gateway or is it all closed?

  570. Guus

    pep. although I'm not sure, I think they're using a third-party dial-in gateway

  571. Guus

    I'm guessing that they're pulling in the media through their SIP stack (but that's a total guess)

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  605. Guus

    What's the state of each of the XMPP IOS clients?

  606. zinid

    quite bad

  607. Guus

    what's lacking in clients, specifically

  608. zinid

    ChatSecure is abandoned and Monal has strange distribution policy and full of bugs

  609. Guus

    _apart from money_ 😉

  610. Guus

    ChatSecure had a release last December?

  611. zinid

    that's what I'm told 🙂

  612. Ge0rG

    Guus: maybe, but that release didn't fix some show stopper bugs. And general development seems to be down to yaxim speed

  613. Guus

    What are the show stopper bugs?

  614. Guus

    is someone in contact with their developers?

  615. Guus

    (are they here?)

  616. Ge0rG

    zinid: what's with the Monal distribution? The author fixed GDPR some months ago

  617. jonas’

    there was something about OMEMO the other day

  618. zinid

    Ge0rG, he invented yet another problem recently

  619. jonas’

    Ge0rG, https://monal.im/blog/omemo-and-french-laws/

  620. Ge0rG

    Guus: https://github.com/ChatSecure/ChatSecure-iOS/issues/906

  621. Ge0rG

    Guus: I've chatted with Chris some time ago, but he looks too busy to push forward

  622. Ge0rG

    zinid: that's a problem invented by the French government, enforced by Apple...

  623. zinid

    Ge0rG, maybe

  624. Guus

    Ge0rG that's just one bug. That surely isn't stopping ChatSecure from being the Conversations equivalent on IOS?

  625. Ge0rG

    And regarding bugs, yeah, Monal is very fresh. Don't use it for MUCs yet.

  626. Ge0rG

    Guus: it's generally crappy, has a horrible backend store performance problem, doesn't quite get stream management right and is more abandoned than not. That bug is just my canary for a simple issue that's very annoying for users and easy to fix for a developer.

  627. Ge0rG

    But yeah, it's the Conversations equivalent on iOS! 🤣🤣

  628. Guus

    What flavors do we have on IOS? ChatSecure, Monal, Beagle, ... ?

  629. zinid

    depends on flavors you prefer 🙂

  630. Guus

    I'm primarily trying to see if there's one that's most likely to be pushed over the finish line

  631. zinid

    Monal, seems like

  632. zinid

    but I'm not sure you can communicate with the author

  633. Ge0rG

    there is also Xabber, which looks like a prototype mockup

  634. zinid

    Xabber doesn't even support MUC

  635. Ge0rG

    Guus: currently, Monal has the highest trajectory. However, the developer is on a multi-week trip right now

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  640. Guus

    What are the current issues with Monal?

  641. Guus

    MUC support, apparently?

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  644. zinid

    Holger, did you try Monal recently?

  645. Ge0rG

    Guus: MUC support is very rudimentary, OMEMO is apparently very freshly in.

  646. Ge0rG

    I can't evaluate the latter.

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  687. Holger

    zinid: Yes, kinda better than ChatSecure, not good of course. The author is more active right now.

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  704. Guus

    Holger: please elaborate

  705. Holger

    Guus: Better than ChatSecure because (a) I didn't see it loose messages and (b) it has that VoIP flag that allows it to use silent notifications (unlike ChatSecure which produces "New message!" notifications). Still not good because bugs (duplicates and whatnot), UI is meh, and MUC still rudimentary as Ge0rG said.

  706. Guus

    Tx

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  724. peter

    Does anyone other than Guus and Ralph have expenses that need to be reimbursed from FOSDEM? I plan to go to the bank on Friday to send reimbursements.

  725. j.r has left

  726. Guus

    (nothing pops to mind - I think I reimbursed everyone that spent money that wasn't sponsoring - but I might be forgetting something)

  727. peter

    OK, thanks.

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  746. Guus

    intosi - didn't you buy stuff for the stand, perhaps?

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  761. rion

    > Xabber doesn't even support MUC Their dev told me they invented something better than muc and mix

  762. Ge0rG

    Yeah. Sure.

  763. moparisthebest

    if it's been implemented once it's already better than MIX ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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  766. rion

    🙂

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  776. zinid

    > Their dev told me they invented something better than muc and mix the whole point of xmpp is standards, I don't see any points in inventing proprietary extensions, eventually you'll end up in supporting both: you proprietary wheel and the standard one

  777. jonas’

    rion, they re-invented group chat 1.0

  778. Zash

    Isn't part of the point of XMPP the freedom to invent your own extensions?

  779. zinid

    Zash: in theory yes

  780. zinid

    in practice I already said how this will end up

  781. zinid

    and I know that because we at processone have such problems now

  782. zinid

    note that was against that shit from the beginning 😁

  783. zinid

    *that I

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  786. zinid

    we have currently proprietary SM, proprietary push, proprietary MUC. some customers want that or this, interaction between the extensions is a nightmare

  787. peter

    ouch

  788. Zash

    Interactions between standardized extensions can be complicated as well:)

  789. zinid

    Zash: true, and having proprietary don't help at all, quite contrary

  790. peter

    Just because you have the freedom to do something doesn't mean it's a good idea. ;-)

  791. rion

    > they re-invented group chat 1.0 I didn't see the protocol. But he promissed to add support to every piece of xmpp software.

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  793. zinid

    lol

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  797. Andrew Nenakhov

    > if it's been implemented once it's already better than MIX ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ It's already implemented, working on server and one client, covered with tests, has nicknames, badges, history search, messages retraction, flexible system of permissions and restrictions, can work pretty well with legacy clients, can work if participants server does not support it, can work with multiple devices (seamlessly even if one client does support it and another does not)

  798. Andrew Nenakhov

    Everyone interested may come and see. Like, right now.

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  800. Andrew Nenakhov

    rion, since you are Russian I can give you access to Google doc

  801. labdsf has joined

  802. Andrew Nenakhov

    > What are the current issues with Monal? My biggest issue with it was that it just doesn't work.

  803. Ge0rG

    It works much better than Xabber ios... 🤷‍♂️

  804. moparisthebest

    "implemented on 1 client and server that work together" makes it better than MIX regardless of anything else

  805. moparisthebest

    you can go into endless discussions about whether MIX is superior protocol-wise, but none of that really matters when it seems like no one will ever implement both ends

  806. Andrew Nenakhov

    Ge0rG, > It works much better than Xabber ios... 🤷‍♂️ It is a false statement.

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  808. Ge0rG

    Andrew Nenakhov: less false than: > My biggest issue with it was that it just doesn't work.

  809. Andrew Nenakhov

    Xabber for iOS is in pretty reliable state, and my Monal has never-ever received a push notification.

  810. Ge0rG

    I've tested both, latest Testflight

  811. Andrew Nenakhov

    Can record you a video like right now of monal and Xabber running concurrently

  812. Ge0rG

    Xabber didn't even connect to my account, had to register one on the Xabber server

  813. Ge0rG

    And even then nothing worked, most functions were just mockup

  814. Andrew Nenakhov

    Maybe some non standard configuration, whatever

  815. Andrew Nenakhov

    Ge0rG, liar )

  816. Ge0rG

    Yeah. Right.

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  819. Ge0rG

    Andrew Nenakhov [21:38]: > Ge0rG, liar ) zinid, is it you?

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  821. Ge0rG

    Andrew Nenakhov: I take it as a hint that you don't want me to retest and open issues on the tracker? You are probably already fed up with my issues on Xabber android anyway... 😁

  822. Andrew Nenakhov

    No, I just want to to stop lying

  823. jonas’

    Andrew Nenakhov, maybe don’t assume the worst right away

  824. Andrew Nenakhov

    Just a sec, uploading a video taken right now

  825. jonas’

    instead, consider: - there may be a situation with some devices which break things in your software - there might be a language barrier of some type - any other technical weirdness which might influence how the app is (not) working

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  827. Andrew Nenakhov

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/Z4kh4CF7nb8mvRUX7

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  829. Andrew Nenakhov

    jonas’, indeed it is possible that he has some weird setup for connecting. Besides ours, we test against jabber.ru, xmpp.jp and jabber.at servers.

  830. rion

    hm I thought that would be a video of a group chat.

  831. Ge0rG

    Andrew Nenakhov: my statement was as true as your statement about Monal. I've tested both, Monal worked, Xabber didn't. So who's lying?

  832. Andrew Nenakhov

    You are, of course.

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  835. moparisthebest

    my guess would be neither, isn't it perfectly possible both of you are telling the truth?

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  838. Andrew Nenakhov

    Send me a video of monal receiving push notification.

  839. moparisthebest

    surely you aren't saying Xabber works 100% of the time everywhere and has 0 bugs

  840. Andrew Nenakhov

    Like after 10 minutes of being in background.

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  842. Andrew Nenakhov

    moparisthebest, of course xabber has lots of bugs

  843. lskdjf has joined

  844. Andrew Nenakhov

    But calling it a mock-up opposing to monal, it's an insult

  845. Ge0rG

    Andrew Nenakhov: Monal is using VoIP priority push. Works reliably for me even when I kill it

  846. Andrew Nenakhov

    My managers suffered for years with monal

  847. Ge0rG

    Andrew Nenakhov: my iPhone isn't charged and hidden somewhere in a bag

  848. Ge0rG

    Andrew Nenakhov: Monal significantly improved in the last two or three months

  849. Ge0rG

    Andrew Nenakhov: but calling me a liar won't make me create a demo video just for you, sorry.

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  854. Andrew Nenakhov

    Whatever

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  856. lovetox

    hug it out :D

  857. intosi

    I spent a few euros, but not worth the trouble. See it as sponsorship.

  858. moparisthebest

    Andrew Nenakhov, means nothing coming from me of course, but I also tend to like running code first, specs later, just hoping you release specs soon and are open for feedback etc :D

  859. intosi

    ^ Guus

  860. Andrew Nenakhov

    > hm I thought that would be a video of a group chat. Left my laptop in the office,so not now. However, group chats can be experienced live on https://web.xabber.com/develop/ right now

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  863. Andrew Nenakhov

    moparisthebest, I'm very open for feedback

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  870. Andrew Nenakhov

    Ge0rG, well, I've installed monal just now, set up my account, waited till roster loads, pressed home button.

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  872. Andrew Nenakhov

    10 seconds later I send a message... And 2 minutes later it's still not delivered.

  873. moparisthebest

    Andrew Nenakhov, sorry if I missed it but are the specs someplace public?

  874. Andrew Nenakhov

    I'm not surprised. I never saw it work even remotely reliable. Not that pushes not at all work, sometimes am hour later it explodes and loads something. But ... Very unpredictable

  875. zinid

    Andrew Nenakhov: nobody will implement non-standard extension, just accept it

  876. Ge0rG

    Andrew Nenakhov: Testflight or store? Do you have the push XEP active on your server.

  877. Andrew Nenakhov

    moparisthebest, you see, it's in Google doc, can share it but it's all in Russian

  878. zinid

    Andrew Nenakhov: I told you that already btw 😁

  879. Andrew Nenakhov

    Ge0rG, store, 0357 supported

  880. moparisthebest

    zinid, that's no problem if he plans to standardize it, you should submit it as a XEP as soon as you can Andrew Nenakhov

  881. zinid

    also, MIX will be released with ejabberd 19.02 next week, so "nobody implemented it" won't hold anymore

  882. Andrew Nenakhov

    zinid, non standard extensions can very well become one.of course xsf can still pursue that dream of mix or whatever.

  883. zinid

    Andrew Nenakhov: too late, mix will become a thing

  884. Andrew Nenakhov

    Anyway our group chats has pretty decent compatibility with any legacy client

  885. zinid

    ejabberd and conversations will implement it and it is documented within the xsf

  886. moparisthebest

    zinid, which clients work with ejabberd 19.02 MIX ?

  887. zinid

    moparisthebest: conversations branch

  888. MattJ

    zinid, but nobody can use it because you don't know if everyone else's server supports it

  889. MattJ

    (or client)

  890. moparisthebest

    interesting, so then maybe it's no longer "no one implements it" that would be a step forward

  891. moparisthebest

    surprising for a 4+ year old XEP

  892. moparisthebest

    in a good way

  893. zinid

    Andrew Nenakhov: I suggested you to release a xep back then, you did not

  894. Andrew Nenakhov

    Our group chat can be installed on any serer )

  895. lovetox

    Problem is almost never the XEP itself in my expierience, its just that devs have no time for experiments

  896. moparisthebest

    still can release a XEP, who knows, maybe it's far superior protocol-wise to MIX

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  898. Andrew Nenakhov

    zinid, it wasn't ready. Also my xep guy is fucking seriously ill for the last couple of months

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  900. zinid

    I wonder why I cannot cite MattJ, seems like he is not joined 😁

  901. MattJ

    Blame MUC :)

  902. Ge0rG

    zinid: welcome to GC1.0

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  904. flow

    MattJ, "nobody can use it" appears exaggerated…

  905. MattJ

    flow, hmm?

  906. flow

    MattJ, your response to zinids annoucement that ejabberd will support MIX

  907. MattJ

    I think it's fine (even good) for closed environments, custom clients, etc.

  908. lovetox

    ... i think he meant why you think that

  909. flow

    I hope that I, using ejabberd, will be able to join a MIX at some other ejabberd once it is released and i've updated my ejabberd

  910. lovetox

    :D

  911. MattJ

    flow, you will, of course

  912. MattJ

    But you'll be alone :)

  913. flow

    Then I hope that I am not nobody :)

  914. MattJ

    As soon as you want to invite someone from another server, either their server or their client (or one of their clients) won't support MIX

  915. flow

    Right, but I am willing to continue with that experiment

  916. lovetox

    does the other server need support?

  917. lovetox

    honest question i didnt read all the XEPs yet

  918. flow

    It sure would be nice if a MUC successor wouldn't require home-server support

  919. Ge0rG

    I'm so glad I demanded full muc compatibility back then.

  920. MattJ

    flow, please don't think that I'm not happy that people are experimenting, or implementing MIX

  921. flow

    And maybe someone will come up with a solution that does not and that solution experiences high traction in means of implementations

  922. Andrew Nenakhov

    flow, xabber gruop chat does not require home server support

  923. MattJ

    I'm glad that something is finally coming of all the work that has been put into it

  924. MattJ

    But it doesn't change this simple fact that it is badly designed if we ever want to see it widely adopted on the network

  925. MattJ

    (within the next 5-10 years)

  926. Ge0rG

    MattJ [22:15]: > But it doesn't change this simple fact that it is badly designed. There, I fixed it.

  927. flow

    Andrew Nenakhov, that is great, but I was told that the spec is only in russian? That maybe hurts adoption a bit outside the native speakers

  928. MattJ

    Ge0rG, I don't think it's all that bad, but it made different design choices to MUC

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  930. flow

    MattJ, and by badly designed you mean the design as whole or the fact that it requires home server support?

  931. MattJ

    Ge0rG, if you're developing certain kinds of closed group chat, I think it's pretty neat to have... compared to needing to implement all the problems MUC has for those environments

  932. Ge0rG

    MattJ: I think the proxy JID "feature" is adding huge complexity for a very small user group.

  933. MattJ

    flow, mainly just the latter

  934. flow

    Then that isn't bad design in my eyes. It is one of two possibly design choices with that regard, each with their pros and cons

  935. Andrew Nenakhov

    flow, we just don't have time to translate it. And we planned to start translating once it's really final

  936. flow

    I personally would make the same decission. But I would also encourage other approaches. Ultimately it is not the XEP, not the council but the ecosystem which determines the survivor

  937. oli

    xmpp => just amazing

  938. MattJ

    flow, please re-read what I wrote

  939. MattJ

    flow, I didn't say it was "bad design." I said it was "badly designed if we ever want to see it widely adopted on the network"

  940. MattJ

    I said in a later message that I think it is great for some use-cases

  941. oli

    so we will have muc and mix and the xabber-stuff-which-is-the-best and some other upcoming alternatives, because mix is badly designed for wide adoption

  942. flow

    MattJ, ah yes, ok, sorry, but I am also not sure about that. The implementation effort for MIX-PAM is manageable

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  945. flow

    at least that is my impression

  946. MattJ

    flow, it's not just about implementation, it's about deployment

  947. flow

    Ok, but you have to deploy anything that is new, how is MIX different?

  948. MattJ

    Because many of the problems with MUC can be solved in backwards-compatible ways

  949. MattJ

    which allows for progressively improving the experience, as users upgrade their clients, etc.

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  951. MattJ

    As it is right now, MUC will still be a fact of life for everyone until we reach some high percentage of MIX support in clients/servers in years to come

  952. flow

    That is probably true, and I fully support the efforts put into MUC.

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  954. flow

    Yep, fully aggree (minus the timeframe)

  955. MattJ

    and if everyone is using MUC daily, because MIX is unusable for general-purpose chats, there isn't much to motivate developers (assume client developers) to maintain both MUC and MIX in their clients

  956. flow

    It could be 5+ years, could also be 2-3 years

  957. MattJ

    Let me know how you plan to upgrade all those Pidgin users who still don't have MAM :)

  958. MattJ

    which is a significant portion of the XMPP userbase, like it or not

  959. flow

    apt remove pidgin

  960. intosi has left

  961. MattJ

    It doesn't work like that, but we all wish it did

  962. MattJ

    I spoke to multiple people at FOSDEM who directly went from Pidgin+XMPP -> Matrix

  963. MattJ

    because Pidgin was their experience of XMPP, and it was rubbish

  964. flow

    No yes, of course, but I am not arguing against MUC and MUC+, but for being adventurous and progressive regarding a new persistent groupchat protocol

  965. MattJ

    Pidgin was an extremely popular client, most people who used XMPP "back in the day" used it, and don't keep up with modern client development like everyone in this room does

  966. flow

    which may or may not be MIX

  967. MattJ

    This room is a bubble in the XMPP sphere, trust me, out there it's Pidgin all the way

  968. MattJ

    (ok, maybe I exaggerate a little here :) )

  969. flow

    No I trust you, I was also a pidgin user when I was in the computer room at my university

  970. MattJ

    But you can't underestimate the deployed userbase. Except for group chats to be used only by XSF members, you're basically always going to have at least one occupant who isn't able to join a MIX room

  971. MattJ

    for quite some time to come

  972. MattJ

    Obviously the sooner we get the ball rolling with MIX, the sooner we can switch to it

  973. flow

    That is why I hope for multi protcol rooms

  974. MattJ

    Which is why I'm glad it now has implementations

  975. MattJ

    Yes, multi-protocol rooms will help somewhat

  976. MattJ

    But if you can access every MIX room via MUC, and MUC is already implemented and compatible with every server... why maintain two group chat implementations in every client?

  977. MattJ

    It's a hard sell if you ask me

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  981. flow

    Well I am speculating that MIX(like) protocols provide better posibilities than MUC when it comes to hibernated mobile devices

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  984. flow

    Or for huge participant rooms where you often do not want pushes of every message, and only read the backlog when you open the window of the channel/room

  985. MattJ

    For sure

  986. MattJ

    But if over the next year we solve both those things for MUC...

  987. flow

    That is the point, I am not sure if they are solvable, or solvable in I way I would like

  988. flow

    There where a lot of improvements to MUC in the past years, but I could imagine that at some point there is just no more one could fix without either sacrificing backwards compatibility *or* really dirty hacks

  989. oli

    you only need one android, one ios and one cross platform desktop client

  990. Andrew Nenakhov

    MUC is based on flawed ideas and must be destroyed.

  991. flow

    I could be wrong, that is why I say "let's go down both holes and see where we come out"

  992. Andrew Nenakhov

    Xmpp does not have 2-5 years for this. Our ship is burning.

  993. Andrew Nenakhov

    And is going to be overtaken by matrix or something else if nothing changes

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  996. zinid

    Andrew Nenakhov: relax, xmpp is in zombie mode now just like IRC 😁

  997. zinid

    zombies cannot die

  998. lovetox

    yeah also the more people adopt it the more clients are out there, if they get another server impl except the reference

  999. lovetox

    they will suffer the same problems as xmpp

  1000. lovetox

    its easy to make something work when everyone uses the same server software

  1001. lovetox

    we know this since whatsapp

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  1003. zinid

    and the same version of the same client btw

  1004. lovetox

    zinid, to be fair there are more than one client

  1005. pep.

    "MattJ> I spoke to multiple people at FOSDEM who directly went from Pidgin+XMPP -> Matrix" I wonder how the Matrix support for libpurple is

  1006. lovetox

    but yes probably most use the same

  1007. Andrew Nenakhov

    lovetox, they'll suffer, no doubt, but as a protocol that has already won, not as competotor

  1008. pep.

    Or did they change clients entirely

  1009. pep.

    In which case they could have just changed XMPP clients..

  1010. lovetox

    why Andrew Nenakhov ?

  1011. pep.

    Guus, here is an actionable item for you, put money on pidgin XMPP support :P

  1012. zinid

    > lovetox, they'll suffer, no doubt, but as a protocol that has already won, not as competotor even so, I don't see how this can bother us, xmpp has always been a marginal protocol, what has been changed?

  1013. Guus

    pep.: I was thinking the same

  1014. lovetox

    yeah xmpp is already in a very small niche

  1015. pep.

    If you manage to revive libpurple's XMPP support, then finally we'll all stop ranting about it, and people might be a bit happier

  1016. Andrew Nenakhov

    Because they have an image of a shiny new protocol that currently has no interoperability problems and can be seen as a replacement for stale old not hipster friendly xmpp

  1017. zinid

    Andrew Nenakhov: so good luck to them

  1018. lovetox

    yeah its called hype

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  1020. Andrew Nenakhov

    Niche status won't change if xmpp does not roll out something that appeases to a wider audience

  1021. lovetox

    you can also learn a new programming language every year

  1022. lovetox

    because they invent something new that beats all the other

  1023. zinid

    Andrew Nenakhov: but it will not, I already ranted about this yesterday in another conference

  1024. lovetox

    but truth is the people that write C since 20 years will probably never out of a job

  1025. zinid

    xmpp is for nerds and their relatives, we just need to accept this and go this line

  1026. lovetox

    haha i like it zinid :D

  1027. zinid

    I don't see the problem here 😁

  1028. zinid

    you cannot fight WhatsApp or Google, that's not our league

  1029. lovetox

    yeah me too, there are billions that use whatsapp

  1030. Andrew Nenakhov

    zinid, I plan to ruin your nerdy lair.

  1031. zinid

    Andrew Nenakhov: let me know when you succeed

  1032. Andrew Nenakhov

    :) ok

  1033. Andrew Nenakhov

    lovetox, analogy between computer languages and social networks is not valid.

  1034. oli

    Andrew Nenakhov: xabber group chat does not require home server support, but uses some group server? is the group server (component) open source?

  1035. Andrew Nenakhov

    It will be open source, yes.

  1036. Andrew Nenakhov

    If anyone's interested we can ship test version tomorrow

  1037. Andrew Nenakhov

    It works with a central group chat server. We have ideas to make it distributed in the future, nothing seems to prevent that architecturally, but not all at once

  1038. lskdjf has joined

  1039. oli

    distributed means matrix style?

  1040. Andrew Nenakhov

    I don't know matrix style exactly. )

  1041. zinid

    stupid full replica copying

  1042. Andrew Nenakhov

    Thing is, our group chat has a fixed jid. If that server dies, .. it's unreachable via that jid

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  1046. Andrew Nenakhov

    In theory we can make failover jids so clients can msg any of those but it's clumsy.

  1047. Andrew Nenakhov

    zinid, how do they address group chats in matrix? I had an impression they have centralized index (or indexes) to discover channels

  1048. zinid

    Andrew Nenakhov: I am not sure, but looks like they just replicate room history, just like rsync

  1049. Andrew Nenakhov

    Replicate between what? Servers? Every server in federation has own chat history?

  1050. zinid

    yes

  1051. zinid

    something like that if I understand correctly

  1052. edhelas

    https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=KDE-Matrix-Support

  1053. zinid

    edhelas: so slow

  1054. Andrew Nenakhov

    When we were discussing architecture of our Groupchats, thought experiment ran into too many potential problems, especially when retracting messages, and syncing changes and accounting for possibility of s2s failure

  1055. edhelas

    :( sorry

  1056. zinid

    Andrew Nenakhov: distributed replication is hard

  1057. zinid

    especially when you try to invent it from scratch 😁

  1058. Andrew Nenakhov

    Yes. And not really necessary.

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  1063. zinid

    Andrew Nenakhov: modern jabber implements distributed replication exactly (using xmpp as a transport), so it's kinda necessary

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  1067. Andrew Nenakhov

    Twitter survived 7% total downtime in 2009, any decent server admin can achieve just 5% downtime

  1068. zinid

    not everyone realizes this

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  1076. zinid

    > Twitter survived 7% total downtime in 2009, any decent server admin can achieve just 5% downtime yeah, tell that to chatme.im 😁

  1077. zinid

    is it alive yet btw? 🤔

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  1079. Andrew Nenakhov

    Never heard of chatme.im

  1080. zinid

    Andrew Nenakhov: it's from operators@ mail list 😁

  1081. zinid

    Andrew Nenakhov: I use it as an example of xmpp fragility

  1082. edhelas

    zinid you have the link ?

  1083. edhelas

    found it

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  1085. edhelas

    that's also why I'm moving jappix.com and fr.movim.eu :D they were hosted on the same server as chatme.im

  1086. edhelas

    the admin just turned of the server without any notices, so I just asked him to turn it on again for a few days to let me migrate things before it's definitely stopped

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  1090. zinid

    yeah, my point is that from common user™ perspective Twitter or WhatsApp is more stable

  1091. zinid

    than any xmpp server

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  1093. Andrew Nenakhov

    Current Twitter is extremely stable.

  1094. Andrew Nenakhov

    Failwhale years were loooong ago

  1095. zinid

    Andrew Nenakhov: true, and it's possible to build extremely stable xmpp service, just it requires a lot of work

  1096. zinid

    no free-time admins can do that

  1097. Andrew Nenakhov

    @xabber.org had two major downtimes in 1.5 years, both caused by Linode

  1098. Andrew Nenakhov

    Of course it is maintained by paid admin.

  1099. zinid

    Andrew Nenakhov: sure, because you're hosted in the same place, no diversity

  1100. Andrew Nenakhov

    We have a backup xmpp server on digitalocean but so far sole DB server, can't make it failover because of reasonz

  1101. zinid

    I understand those reasons 😁

  1102. zinid

    I mean no blame, it's hard

  1103. Andrew Nenakhov

    )) there is one more silly reason you don't know but I'm to ashamed to tell about it in public

  1104. zinid

    okay 👍

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