XSF Discussion - 2019-02-21

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  115. jubalh is there a way to tell the xmpp server to only send me messages from contacts in my roster? or do some clients have such a feature to drop everything that comes from contacts not in the roster?
  116. Zash yes
  117. Zash :)
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  120. jubalh which/how?
  121. Zash Privacy lists did this, but we killed it. Now I think clients just don't notify about messages from non-roster entities.
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  124. jubalh ok, thanks
  125. Zash jubalh: What's your reason for this?
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  128. jubalh Zash, https://github.com/boothj5/profanity/issues/955
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  130. Zash A couple of clients have such anti-spam feature, where non-contacts are required to answer some question before their message is shown to the user.
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  134. jubalh which kind of clients? would like to see what they do. i thought about just blocking if user enables that feature
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  136. Zash I think there's a plugin for Gajim, and something similar for some other client that I'm not sure which one it is. Psi perhaps?
  137. rion yep Psi
  138. Zash Haven't used this feature myself, I got along by blocking domains for a while.
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  141. jubalh yeah me too
  142. jubalh ok will take a look at those two
  143. zinid profanity is alive?
  144. Zash sees recent commits by a "julbah", whoever that might be
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  146. Zash sees recent commits by a "jubalh", whoever that might be
  147. jubalh ;)
  148. jubalh i try to keep it alive, yes
  149. jubalh released a 0.6.0 couple of days ago
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  151. Guus OneTeam is a ProcessOne project, isn't it?
  152. Guus oneteam.im isn't responding for me
  153. zinid Guus, yes
  154. Zash jubalh: how alive? maintaining or active development? :)
  155. zinid Guus, it's discontinued
  156. jubalh Zash, so far it was maintaining and now i'm slowly transitioning to active development
  157. Guus ah, then we probably should take it off of https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html
  158. jubalh but i can only do it in small time chunks because of other obligations
  159. zinid Guus, yes
  160. Zash Doesn't that happen by itself?
  161. jubalh closed quite some bugs in recent weeks, and now try to add new features
  162. Zash Nice!
  163. zinid jubalh, is it XEP-0412 compliant yet? :)
  164. Zash jubalh: Can I interest you in doing the timestamp update thing so it shows up on https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html ?
  165. jubalh zinid, didnt check, dont think so
  166. jubalh Zash, timestamp update thing?
  167. zinid heh
  168. Zash jubalh: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/blob/master/data/README.rst
  169. rion hm Psi is not in the list.
  170. Zash rion: you too then ↑
  171. jubalh ah i thought timestamp update thing is somehow a xep ;)
  172. zinid yeah and please somebody remove OneTeam from the list :)
  173. jubalh you mean just updating the entry there
  174. Zash zinid: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/529
  175. jubalh sure i'll do this for profanity later toay
  176. goffi would be good to have a xmpp or email reminder for this timestamp thing, I haven't noticed it was off for SàT for a couple of months.
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  178. zinid Zash, 👍
  179. rion hm update-entry.py also did this - "name": "Bruno the Jabber™ Bear", + "name": "Bruno the Jabber\u2122 Bear",
  180. Zash Normalization is fun!
  181. rion I'll remove this change and do PR
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  183. jonas’ yeah, python is by default very conservative about emitting JSON
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  186. jubalh Zash, https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/530
  187. Zash 👍
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  192. Ge0rG jubalh: which server software are you using?
  193. jubalh Ge0rG, prosody
  194. Ge0rG You can block spam with mod_firewall, I've heard
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  196. jubalh Ge0rG, I myself block already via prosody. But this issue was not created by me, and I don't know whether the user runs his own server
  197. Guus > would be good to have a xmpp or email reminder for this timestamp thing, I haven't noticed it was off for SàT for a couple of months. That kind of defeats the purpose of having the timeout.
  198. Guus But you can easily add a recurring reminder in your own calendar. 😉
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  203. goffi Guus: why would that be defeating the purpose? A reminder doesn't prevent the manual update, which is the real indicator of project activity.
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  214. Ge0rG goffi: caring enough to have your own reminder is even more indicatior of project activity.
  215. zinid I disagree
  216. zinid that's only an indicator that the project author enabled the reminder
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  222. goffi Ge0rG: Guus: it forces me to install a calendar or something to set up a reminder, while for XSF it's just about a script in cron which do an XMPP send.
  223. Ge0rG goffi: what about you configuring a cron which do an XMPP send?
  224. goffi Ge0rG: that exactly what I'm asking for
  225. Ge0rG goffi: essentially everybody in XSF is absolutely overloaded with work.
  226. goffi on clients dev side it mean that they have to setup a server, make a regular sync with git repos, and do a cron to check that. And trust me all client devs are overloaded too.
  227. Ge0rG goffi: you don't need any of that. Just a cron job: `30 8 21 2 * echo 'renew my xmpp.org software'`
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  236. goffi Ge0rG: supposing all client devs have a anacron or similar available, and check logs. Just this morning has shown that 2 clients were not visible because devs have missed it. As a result, the list of client is not up to date. If think it's a pity as it could be easily fixed. But not need to talk about that for hours.
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  241. Ge0rG goffi: I'm sure you have read the rationale in https://xmpp.org/2017/03/new-xmpp-software-listing-rules/
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  246. goffi Ge0rG: yes I know that, I don't see how it changes any bit of what I've said.
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  310. flow https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19216077
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  312. Andrew Nenakhov I, for one, think that email is just a xep
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  314. Ge0rG https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19216252 sarcasm overflow!
  315. Ge0rG https://slashdot.org/story/99/01/04/1621211/open-real-time-messaging-system
  316. pep. Ge0rG, please reply that? :P
  317. Seve o/
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  320. Seve ralphm, do we have meeting today?
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  322. Guus I can't make it
  323. Guus In car
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  325. Guus Traffic jam now
  326. Seve No worries Guus, take care
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  331. MattJ I'm semi-around, have a bad headache... so I won't complain if we skip this week
  332. Seve MattJ, doesn't look like Board is present so.. :) Get well soon
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  335. MattJ Thanks
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  338. zinid > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19216252 sarcasm overflow! I also replied 🙂
  339. zinid https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19216963
  340. Ge0rG 🍿
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  352. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: so I charged my iPhone now. Xabber beta on TestFlight is a month old. My xabber.com account shows as "offline", despite being activated. The first tab (messages?) is empty and the add dialog has no action buttons. The second tab is completely blank.
  353. Ge0rG do you need a video of that?
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  356. oli of you eating 🍿
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  361. Ge0rG https://upload.yax.im/upload/73-dxDyvscbeeqyY/XabberFail.mp4
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  366. Andrew Nenakhov Ge0rG, We didn't give this area any work. Looking for other things to marvel at.
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  368. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: by "this area" you are speaking of Xabber/iOS?
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  371. jonas’ I think Ge0rG is trying to say that the current UI as-is is confusing to him and it appears to be not working at all
  372. Ge0rG jonas’: there is "confusing" and there is "broken".
  373. jonas’ I have to agree that all those empty fields are extremely confusing/misleading/broken-looking
  374. Andrew Nenakhov Hard stuff is not adding contacts, but consistently working with message archive
  375. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: I can not login. I can not send messages. What should there be in that consistently hard message archive?
  376. Ge0rG And there are no offline messages on xabber.com
  377. Andrew Nenakhov Yes! Offline messages is an outdated concept.
  378. Andrew Nenakhov Ge0rG, I can log in, can send messages. If you can't, file an issue with test accounts on your server. Probably smth wrong with that.
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  388. jonas’ isn’t the video showing xabber.com as serevr?
  389. Andrew Nenakhov Hardly. Registration on that server is not free.
  390. oli login, online and messages are outdated concepts
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  392. Ge0rG > Registration on that server is not free. That would be a better error message than "Offline".
  393. Ge0rG so yay, I can login to xabber.org but not to .com.
  394. Ge0rG now I have two accounts configured with no way to delete the broken one.
  395. Ge0rG But I still can't add contacts or send messages.
  396. Andrew Nenakhov Ge0rG, try doing it an iOS way.
  397. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: doing what, what way?
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  400. Andrew Nenakhov Ge0rG, > now I have two accounts configured with no way to delete the broken one.
  401. Andrew Nenakhov That is done the iOS way
  402. Ge0rG By swiping it? I tried.
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  404. zinid oh, I'm getting downvoted on HN, lovely
  405. Ge0rG zinid: they know a troll. :P
  406. Andrew Nenakhov > By swiping it? I tried. Go to connection settings
  407. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: been there
  408. zinid Ge0rG, any reply to matrix talibans is trolling, okay
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  410. Ge0rG zinid: not any. Just yours 😁
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  412. jonas’ c’mon, Ge0rG
  413. Andrew Nenakhov https://xmpp.redsolution.com/upload/4bddf4f264f5c6577f16551f16a0abdf3f7ff84d/BhZOF4b0/IMG_20190221_205419.jpg
  414. zinid speaking about xmpp promotion
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  417. Andrew Nenakhov In Xabber iOS adding contacts, and settings in general are the least worked on parts. Cause they are too trivial and in inconsequential.
  418. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: now *this* is fucking well hidden. Settings -> Account -> Connection -> all the way down to the basement
  419. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: why isn't it at the bottom of Account?
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  421. zinid Ge0rG, then reply to matrix dude something, stoping eating pop-corn, or just take your ass and upvote those who replied
  422. debacle good, it supports stream compression
  423. Andrew Nenakhov We know we can do it any time putting in a couple of days of work
  424. Ge0rG > We know we can do it any time putting in a couple of days of work Awesome.
  425. Andrew Nenakhov So why wasting time on that when we have more potentially deal breakers in front of us?
  426. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: so what *are* you working on?
  427. Ge0rG New-MUC?
  428. jonas’ itym GC1.0-NIH
  429. Andrew Nenakhov Like a library to decode/encode ogg for example
  430. jonas’ aren’t there libraries to do that already?
  431. Ge0rG You know that saying about you needing to learn walking before starting to fly?
  432. Andrew Nenakhov jonas’, you'd be surprised, but no, there is no ogg lib for iOS
  433. Andrew Nenakhov In 2019!
  434. jonas’ thefuck
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  436. jonas’ if this is for telephony, go straight to opus
  437. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: okay, congratulations. you have explained to me how to use the account setup part of your non-working client
  438. Andrew Nenakhov That's exactly what we went for
  439. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: why can't I send and receive fucking text messages, like it's 2002?
  440. Andrew Nenakhov Ge0rG, this client is not even released
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  442. Andrew Nenakhov Ge0rG, you can't send messages because you are lame
  443. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: you know that part about "public beta tests"?
  444. Ge0rG you announce it. People test it and report back. Unless they realize after five minutes that it's a broken mockup with your company logo on top
  445. oli you'are all a bunch of neurons
  446. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: why can't I *receive* messages, then?
  447. Andrew Nenakhov Ge0rG, cause you are lame, I guess. For me Xabber works extremely well now.
  448. Andrew Nenakhov Those parts of it that work, at least ;)
  449. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: send a message to ge0rg@xabber.org
  450. zinid Andrew Nenakhov, only ass-ugly yaxim works for him
  451. Ge0rG The most funniests thing is this: I receive back a 0184 receipt, but the message doesn't arrive in Xabber.
  452. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: Ha! I got a notification from you. Tapped it. Xabber crashed.
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  455. zinid Ge0rG, last time you told me to file a bug report when I said something like that about another client
  456. zinid Ge0rG, so go file a fucking bug report!
  457. Ge0rG zinid: why? The developer doesn't believe me anyway. I'm a liar.
  458. jonas’ maybe with a stacktrace they will
  459. Andrew Nenakhov Most likely the version on test flight is fairly old.
  460. zinid Ge0rG, because you're indeed a liar?
  461. Ge0rG > Most likely the version on test flight is fairly old. Yes. One month.
  462. jonas’ okay, at this point, I’d like to point out to *all* participants of this conversation (yes, you too, Ge0rG), that the level of toxicity you’ve reached is terrible and you all should take a step back.
  463. Alex jonas’: thank you (Y)
  464. Ge0rG jonas’: sorry. I'm calm now.
  465. oli 🍿 no, they are just starting...
  466. jonas’ Ge0rG, if you don’t want to debug xabber, then just don’. Andrew Nenakhov, if you want Ge0rG to help you make xabber better (because I don’t doubt that there are issues), please point out the info you need in bugreports and how Ge0rG can gather it (mind that he’s not an iOS dev).
  467. jonas’ thanks
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  470. Andrew Nenakhov Xabber is not even a beta release, it's a rolling alpha builds. Some parts of it work (and do it great. Like, you've seen many clients that load recent chats history in a consistent way?). Some can react to it positively, some can go to very trivial to do areas of app and point fingers.
  471. Andrew Nenakhov So I actually don't care for pointed fingers. :) We know what we do and why we do it in this exact order, and we'll release when we're ready.
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  473. Ge0rG 🤐
  474. zinid I would rather suggest to Andrew Nenakhov to stop paying attention to Ge0rG since he's known hypocrite with double standards. And rather focus on client development - the task Ge0rG definitely failed 🙂
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  476. zinid now I shut up 😀
  477. Andrew Nenakhov Lol )
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  480. Andrew Nenakhov Also, better check this niiiiice vCard view
  481. Andrew Nenakhov https://xmpp.redsolution.com/upload/4bddf4f264f5c6577f16551f16a0abdf3f7ff84d/TJKNGQTe/IMG_20190221_211000209.jpg
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  483. jonas’ that’s indeed nice
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  493. Andrew Nenakhov jonas’, thanks
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  506. jubalh question regarding OMEMO: "A random preKeyPublic entry is selected, and used to build an SignalProtocol session." why a random one from the list?
  507. Andrew Nenakhov To minimize conflicts, I guess
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  510. Ge0rG there is no protocol support to tell the server "give me a unique prekey"
  511. jubalh ah later one we remove a key from the list, I see
  512. jubalh got it got it :)
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  514. jubalh so lets say 20 preKeyPublic entries got published, which is hte minimum as i understand it, and i have 5 clients online. als they choose a random key. if they collide how is that detected again? i'm not clear about this part
  515. Ge0rG jubalh: as soon as you used a prekey, the other side is supposed to update the list in PEP
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  527. pep. Ge0rG, "it depends"
  528. vanitasvitae Once your client receives a prekey message for a certain prekey, it deletes said key. So if yet another client builds a session with that exact key, your client will be unable to decrypt that prekey message.
  529. pep. vanitasvitae, you means once you have confirmation that the session is initiated, right?
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  531. pep. (I also need to understand the thing as I fear I'm going to spend time debugging it in the near future)
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  533. vanitasvitae Hehe
  534. vanitasvitae > vanitasvitae, you means once you have confirmation that the session is initiated, right? ?
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  536. vanitasvitae It deletes the prekey after it successfully decrypted the prekey message which initiates a session.
  537. pep. Right
  538. pep. Oh, wait so, you to me and me to you, that's two different sessions?
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  541. Ge0rG Whoever invented per device keys shall burn in hell forever
  542. pep. master key has other disadvantages fwiw
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  772. lovetox pep. a session can have more than one stage here
  773. lovetox first you chose a prekey and send X messages, thats stage 1, it has not yet the full security propertys
  774. lovetox so you have a session in stage 1
  775. lovetox after some time the other side answers, this pushs the session into stage 2
  776. lovetox and from that point on you have all the propertys like FS and what not
  777. lovetox in stage one its like pgp i think
  778. lovetox in the sense that it has no FS, if someone gets your secret key he can decrypt all past and future message of a stage 1
  779. lovetox session
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