XSF Discussion - 2019-02-21

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  115. jubalh

    is there a way to tell the xmpp server to only send me messages from contacts in my roster? or do some clients have such a feature to drop everything that comes from contacts not in the roster?

  116. Zash


  117. Zash


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  120. jubalh


  121. Zash

    Privacy lists did this, but we killed it. Now I think clients just don't notify about messages from non-roster entities.

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  124. jubalh

    ok, thanks

  125. Zash

    jubalh: What's your reason for this?

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  128. jubalh

    Zash, https://github.com/boothj5/profanity/issues/955

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  130. Zash

    A couple of clients have such anti-spam feature, where non-contacts are required to answer some question before their message is shown to the user.

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  134. jubalh

    which kind of clients? would like to see what they do. i thought about just blocking if user enables that feature

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  136. Zash

    I think there's a plugin for Gajim, and something similar for some other client that I'm not sure which one it is. Psi perhaps?

  137. rion

    yep Psi

  138. Zash

    Haven't used this feature myself, I got along by blocking domains for a while.

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  141. jubalh

    yeah me too

  142. jubalh

    ok will take a look at those two

  143. zinid

    profanity is alive?

  144. Zash sees recent commits by a "julbah", whoever that might be

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  146. Zash sees recent commits by a "jubalh", whoever that might be

  147. jubalh


  148. jubalh

    i try to keep it alive, yes

  149. jubalh

    released a 0.6.0 couple of days ago

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  151. Guus

    OneTeam is a ProcessOne project, isn't it?

  152. Guus

    oneteam.im isn't responding for me

  153. zinid

    Guus, yes

  154. Zash

    jubalh: how alive? maintaining or active development? :)

  155. zinid

    Guus, it's discontinued

  156. jubalh

    Zash, so far it was maintaining and now i'm slowly transitioning to active development

  157. Guus

    ah, then we probably should take it off of https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html

  158. jubalh

    but i can only do it in small time chunks because of other obligations

  159. zinid

    Guus, yes

  160. Zash

    Doesn't that happen by itself?

  161. jubalh

    closed quite some bugs in recent weeks, and now try to add new features

  162. Zash


  163. zinid

    jubalh, is it XEP-0412 compliant yet? :)

  164. Zash

    jubalh: Can I interest you in doing the timestamp update thing so it shows up on https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html ?

  165. jubalh

    zinid, didnt check, dont think so

  166. jubalh

    Zash, timestamp update thing?

  167. zinid


  168. Zash

    jubalh: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/blob/master/data/README.rst

  169. rion

    hm Psi is not in the list.

  170. Zash

    rion: you too then ↑

  171. jubalh

    ah i thought timestamp update thing is somehow a xep ;)

  172. zinid

    yeah and please somebody remove OneTeam from the list :)

  173. jubalh

    you mean just updating the entry there

  174. Zash

    zinid: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/529

  175. jubalh

    sure i'll do this for profanity later toay

  176. goffi

    would be good to have a xmpp or email reminder for this timestamp thing, I haven't noticed it was off for SàT for a couple of months.

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  178. zinid

    Zash, 👍

  179. rion

    hm update-entry.py also did this - "name": "Bruno the Jabber™ Bear", + "name": "Bruno the Jabber\u2122 Bear",

  180. Zash

    Normalization is fun!

  181. rion

    I'll remove this change and do PR

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  183. jonas’

    yeah, python is by default very conservative about emitting JSON

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  186. jubalh

    Zash, https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/530

  187. Zash


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  192. Ge0rG

    jubalh: which server software are you using?

  193. jubalh

    Ge0rG, prosody

  194. Ge0rG

    You can block spam with mod_firewall, I've heard

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  196. jubalh

    Ge0rG, I myself block already via prosody. But this issue was not created by me, and I don't know whether the user runs his own server

  197. Guus

    > would be good to have a xmpp or email reminder for this timestamp thing, I haven't noticed it was off for SàT for a couple of months. That kind of defeats the purpose of having the timeout.

  198. Guus

    But you can easily add a recurring reminder in your own calendar. 😉

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  203. goffi

    Guus: why would that be defeating the purpose? A reminder doesn't prevent the manual update, which is the real indicator of project activity.

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  214. Ge0rG

    goffi: caring enough to have your own reminder is even more indicatior of project activity.

  215. zinid

    I disagree

  216. zinid

    that's only an indicator that the project author enabled the reminder

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  222. goffi

    Ge0rG: Guus: it forces me to install a calendar or something to set up a reminder, while for XSF it's just about a script in cron which do an XMPP send.

  223. Ge0rG

    goffi: what about you configuring a cron which do an XMPP send?

  224. goffi

    Ge0rG: that exactly what I'm asking for

  225. Ge0rG

    goffi: essentially everybody in XSF is absolutely overloaded with work.

  226. goffi

    on clients dev side it mean that they have to setup a server, make a regular sync with git repos, and do a cron to check that. And trust me all client devs are overloaded too.

  227. Ge0rG

    goffi: you don't need any of that. Just a cron job: `30 8 21 2 * echo 'renew my xmpp.org software'`

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  236. goffi

    Ge0rG: supposing all client devs have a anacron or similar available, and check logs. Just this morning has shown that 2 clients were not visible because devs have missed it. As a result, the list of client is not up to date. If think it's a pity as it could be easily fixed. But not need to talk about that for hours.

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  241. Ge0rG

    goffi: I'm sure you have read the rationale in https://xmpp.org/2017/03/new-xmpp-software-listing-rules/

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  246. goffi

    Ge0rG: yes I know that, I don't see how it changes any bit of what I've said.

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  310. flow


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  312. Andrew Nenakhov

    I, for one, think that email is just a xep

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  314. Ge0rG

    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19216252 sarcasm overflow!

  315. Ge0rG


  316. pep.

    Ge0rG, please reply that? :P

  317. Seve


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  320. Seve

    ralphm, do we have meeting today?

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  322. Guus

    I can't make it

  323. Guus

    In car

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  325. Guus

    Traffic jam now

  326. Seve

    No worries Guus, take care

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  331. MattJ

    I'm semi-around, have a bad headache... so I won't complain if we skip this week

  332. Seve

    MattJ, doesn't look like Board is present so.. :) Get well soon

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  338. zinid

    > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19216252 sarcasm overflow! I also replied 🙂

  339. zinid


  340. Ge0rG


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  352. Ge0rG

    Andrew Nenakhov: so I charged my iPhone now. Xabber beta on TestFlight is a month old. My xabber.com account shows as "offline", despite being activated. The first tab (messages?) is empty and the add dialog has no action buttons. The second tab is completely blank.

  353. Ge0rG

    do you need a video of that?

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  356. oli

    of you eating 🍿

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  361. Ge0rG


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  366. Andrew Nenakhov

    Ge0rG, We didn't give this area any work. Looking for other things to marvel at.

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  368. Ge0rG

    Andrew Nenakhov: by "this area" you are speaking of Xabber/iOS?

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  371. jonas’

    I think Ge0rG is trying to say that the current UI as-is is confusing to him and it appears to be not working at all

  372. Ge0rG

    jonas’: there is "confusing" and there is "broken".

  373. jonas’

    I have to agree that all those empty fields are extremely confusing/misleading/broken-looking

  374. Andrew Nenakhov

    Hard stuff is not adding contacts, but consistently working with message archive

  375. Ge0rG

    Andrew Nenakhov: I can not login. I can not send messages. What should there be in that consistently hard message archive?

  376. Ge0rG

    And there are no offline messages on xabber.com

  377. Andrew Nenakhov

    Yes! Offline messages is an outdated concept.

  378. Andrew Nenakhov

    Ge0rG, I can log in, can send messages. If you can't, file an issue with test accounts on your server. Probably smth wrong with that.

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  388. jonas’

    isn’t the video showing xabber.com as serevr?

  389. Andrew Nenakhov

    Hardly. Registration on that server is not free.

  390. oli

    login, online and messages are outdated concepts

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  392. Ge0rG

    > Registration on that server is not free. That would be a better error message than "Offline".

  393. Ge0rG

    so yay, I can login to xabber.org but not to .com.

  394. Ge0rG

    now I have two accounts configured with no way to delete the broken one.

  395. Ge0rG

    But I still can't add contacts or send messages.

  396. Andrew Nenakhov

    Ge0rG, try doing it an iOS way.

  397. Ge0rG

    Andrew Nenakhov: doing what, what way?

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  400. Andrew Nenakhov

    Ge0rG, > now I have two accounts configured with no way to delete the broken one.

  401. Andrew Nenakhov

    That is done the iOS way

  402. Ge0rG

    By swiping it? I tried.

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  404. zinid

    oh, I'm getting downvoted on HN, lovely

  405. Ge0rG

    zinid: they know a troll. :P

  406. Andrew Nenakhov

    > By swiping it? I tried. Go to connection settings

  407. Ge0rG

    Andrew Nenakhov: been there

  408. zinid

    Ge0rG, any reply to matrix talibans is trolling, okay

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  410. Ge0rG

    zinid: not any. Just yours 😁

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  412. jonas’

    c’mon, Ge0rG

  413. Andrew Nenakhov


  414. zinid

    speaking about xmpp promotion

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  417. Andrew Nenakhov

    In Xabber iOS adding contacts, and settings in general are the least worked on parts. Cause they are too trivial and in inconsequential.

  418. Ge0rG

    Andrew Nenakhov: now *this* is fucking well hidden. Settings -> Account -> Connection -> all the way down to the basement

  419. Ge0rG

    Andrew Nenakhov: why isn't it at the bottom of Account?

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  421. zinid

    Ge0rG, then reply to matrix dude something, stoping eating pop-corn, or just take your ass and upvote those who replied

  422. debacle

    good, it supports stream compression

  423. Andrew Nenakhov

    We know we can do it any time putting in a couple of days of work

  424. Ge0rG

    > We know we can do it any time putting in a couple of days of work Awesome.

  425. Andrew Nenakhov

    So why wasting time on that when we have more potentially deal breakers in front of us?

  426. Ge0rG

    Andrew Nenakhov: so what *are* you working on?

  427. Ge0rG


  428. jonas’

    itym GC1.0-NIH

  429. Andrew Nenakhov

    Like a library to decode/encode ogg for example

  430. jonas’

    aren’t there libraries to do that already?

  431. Ge0rG

    You know that saying about you needing to learn walking before starting to fly?

  432. Andrew Nenakhov

    jonas’, you'd be surprised, but no, there is no ogg lib for iOS

  433. Andrew Nenakhov

    In 2019!

  434. jonas’


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  436. jonas’

    if this is for telephony, go straight to opus

  437. Ge0rG

    Andrew Nenakhov: okay, congratulations. you have explained to me how to use the account setup part of your non-working client

  438. Andrew Nenakhov

    That's exactly what we went for

  439. Ge0rG

    Andrew Nenakhov: why can't I send and receive fucking text messages, like it's 2002?

  440. Andrew Nenakhov

    Ge0rG, this client is not even released

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  442. Andrew Nenakhov

    Ge0rG, you can't send messages because you are lame

  443. Ge0rG

    Andrew Nenakhov: you know that part about "public beta tests"?

  444. Ge0rG

    you announce it. People test it and report back. Unless they realize after five minutes that it's a broken mockup with your company logo on top

  445. oli

    you'are all a bunch of neurons

  446. Ge0rG

    Andrew Nenakhov: why can't I *receive* messages, then?

  447. Andrew Nenakhov

    Ge0rG, cause you are lame, I guess. For me Xabber works extremely well now.

  448. Andrew Nenakhov

    Those parts of it that work, at least ;)

  449. Ge0rG

    Andrew Nenakhov: send a message to ge0rg@xabber.org

  450. zinid

    Andrew Nenakhov, only ass-ugly yaxim works for him

  451. Ge0rG

    The most funniests thing is this: I receive back a 0184 receipt, but the message doesn't arrive in Xabber.

  452. Ge0rG

    Andrew Nenakhov: Ha! I got a notification from you. Tapped it. Xabber crashed.

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  455. zinid

    Ge0rG, last time you told me to file a bug report when I said something like that about another client

  456. zinid

    Ge0rG, so go file a fucking bug report!

  457. Ge0rG

    zinid: why? The developer doesn't believe me anyway. I'm a liar.

  458. jonas’

    maybe with a stacktrace they will

  459. Andrew Nenakhov

    Most likely the version on test flight is fairly old.

  460. zinid

    Ge0rG, because you're indeed a liar?

  461. Ge0rG

    > Most likely the version on test flight is fairly old. Yes. One month.

  462. jonas’

    okay, at this point, I’d like to point out to *all* participants of this conversation (yes, you too, Ge0rG), that the level of toxicity you’ve reached is terrible and you all should take a step back.

  463. Alex

    jonas’: thank you (Y)

  464. Ge0rG

    jonas’: sorry. I'm calm now.

  465. oli

    🍿 no, they are just starting...

  466. jonas’

    Ge0rG, if you don’t want to debug xabber, then just don’. Andrew Nenakhov, if you want Ge0rG to help you make xabber better (because I don’t doubt that there are issues), please point out the info you need in bugreports and how Ge0rG can gather it (mind that he’s not an iOS dev).

  467. jonas’


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  470. Andrew Nenakhov

    Xabber is not even a beta release, it's a rolling alpha builds. Some parts of it work (and do it great. Like, you've seen many clients that load recent chats history in a consistent way?). Some can react to it positively, some can go to very trivial to do areas of app and point fingers.

  471. Andrew Nenakhov

    So I actually don't care for pointed fingers. :) We know what we do and why we do it in this exact order, and we'll release when we're ready.

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  473. Ge0rG


  474. zinid

    I would rather suggest to Andrew Nenakhov to stop paying attention to Ge0rG since he's known hypocrite with double standards. And rather focus on client development - the task Ge0rG definitely failed 🙂

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  476. zinid

    now I shut up 😀

  477. Andrew Nenakhov

    Lol )

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  480. Andrew Nenakhov

    Also, better check this niiiiice vCard view

  481. Andrew Nenakhov


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  483. jonas’

    that’s indeed nice

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  493. Andrew Nenakhov

    jonas’, thanks

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  506. jubalh

    question regarding OMEMO: "A random preKeyPublic entry is selected, and used to build an SignalProtocol session." why a random one from the list?

  507. Andrew Nenakhov

    To minimize conflicts, I guess

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  510. Ge0rG

    there is no protocol support to tell the server "give me a unique prekey"

  511. jubalh

    ah later one we remove a key from the list, I see

  512. jubalh

    got it got it :)

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  514. jubalh

    so lets say 20 preKeyPublic entries got published, which is hte minimum as i understand it, and i have 5 clients online. als they choose a random key. if they collide how is that detected again? i'm not clear about this part

  515. Ge0rG

    jubalh: as soon as you used a prekey, the other side is supposed to update the list in PEP

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  527. pep.

    Ge0rG, "it depends"

  528. vanitasvitae

    Once your client receives a prekey message for a certain prekey, it deletes said key. So if yet another client builds a session with that exact key, your client will be unable to decrypt that prekey message.

  529. pep.

    vanitasvitae, you means once you have confirmation that the session is initiated, right?

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  531. pep.

    (I also need to understand the thing as I fear I'm going to spend time debugging it in the near future)

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  533. vanitasvitae


  534. vanitasvitae

    > vanitasvitae, you means once you have confirmation that the session is initiated, right? ?

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  536. vanitasvitae

    It deletes the prekey after it successfully decrypted the prekey message which initiates a session.

  537. pep.


  538. pep.

    Oh, wait so, you to me and me to you, that's two different sessions?

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  541. Ge0rG

    Whoever invented per device keys shall burn in hell forever

  542. pep.

    master key has other disadvantages fwiw

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  772. lovetox

    pep. a session can have more than one stage here

  773. lovetox

    first you chose a prekey and send X messages, thats stage 1, it has not yet the full security propertys

  774. lovetox

    so you have a session in stage 1

  775. lovetox

    after some time the other side answers, this pushs the session into stage 2

  776. lovetox

    and from that point on you have all the propertys like FS and what not

  777. lovetox

    in stage one its like pgp i think

  778. lovetox

    in the sense that it has no FS, if someone gets your secret key he can decrypt all past and future message of a stage 1

  779. lovetox


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