XSF Discussion - 2019-02-25

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  310. Holger I know I'm late to the party but I don't agree arguing vs. Matrix is bad and counter-productive. As a user I may well be interested in the pros and cons as seen by those involved in the protocols.
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  313. zinid Holger: πŸ‘
  314. Zash Know thy bias
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  317. Holger It's quite common that participants in discussions are biased :-)
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  321. zinid I also don't understand this: several XMPP folks walk around and try to convince some communities to install XMPP instead of Matrix (KDE is such an example, I think Seve tried to convince them, I also recall that Licaon_Kter were trying the same in another community). So, if we don't "fight", let's just give up and let them installing Matrix? So those XMPP folks are just wasting time?
  322. Ge0rG Holger: I think it's all about being polite and open to feedback and insights from the other side.
  323. Ge0rG Also I'm ashamed about how some of "us" are bashing "them" on every possible occasion
  324. zinid yeah, people are obsessed with politeness
  325. zinid facts don't matter anymore even in high-tech community, you just need to be polite
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  327. Ge0rG zinid: facts don't matter as long as you are impolite, in any community, since ever. Except when you are the dictator and can just ignore people's feelings.
  328. zinid how does the fact relates to politeness?
  329. zinid the earth is not flat, whatever you like it to be
  330. Holger Ge0rG: That's just not true. Different people, different tone, in any community, since ever. I feel it's a more recent-ish fashion to discuss tone all day, but you won't change it no matter how much energy you put into such meta discussions.
  331. zinid I also find it strange to focus on the tone endlessly
  332. Guus We focus on tone as yours is actively scaring people away. I understand that you don't consider your tone to be offensive. However, it is to a lot of people that do not share your background. This is how you can do damage to the community as a whole, even when your intentions are nobel. When discussing in a group of people with mixed backgrounds, it is best to err on the side of caution.
  333. zinid you see, again this πŸ˜€
  334. Guus Yes, and I will, as long as I feel that you are hurting the community.
  335. Ge0rG Guus: thanks, that's exactly what I wanted to say, but lacked the right words for
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  337. zinid Guus, who is the community?
  338. zinid this room?
  339. Guus A mix of people of varied backgrounds.
  340. zinid yeah, very precise definition
  341. Ge0rG "the people who want to make XMPP more successful" would be a better one.
  342. Holger So this was just all about tone. I'm sorry I stirred this up.
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  345. zinid Guus, btw, did you think that Matrix did more harm to our community by attracting them to Matrix?
  346. Ge0rG zinid: Matrix didn't do harm to our community. We did that harm by not providing the same perceived quality as Matrix.
  347. zinid we...
  348. Ge0rG (part of that is also yelling at our users)
  349. Guus I think XMPP was very complacent before Matrix. Now that they're around, we are more motivated to get things up to spec.
  350. zinid Ge0rG, I never heard that someone switched to Matrix because XMPP community is agressive
  351. pep. Guus, you mean forced? :P
  352. Guus zinid, I've had various talks with people that think XMPP people are acting like dicks.
  353. zinid Guus, and I didn't
  354. zinid I mean I never heard that
  355. Guus zinid, I have been trying to tell you over and over and over.
  356. Ge0rG zinid: maybe because you've got a reputation?
  357. Holger Guus: "Now that they're around, we are more motivated to get things up to spec." Really? I argued against someone making that statement just this morning. You feel XEP or software development is pushed by the competition from Matrix?
  358. zinid Ge0rG, so it's "you" but "we"?
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  361. zinid Ge0rG, so it's "me" who hurt the community, but hypothetical "we" when you want to describe your failure?
  362. Guus Holger I didn't see that disccussion (was it here), but I do think that it, for instance, Matrix has shown what the effect is of XMPP clients generally offering bad UX/UI.
  363. Zash I sure don't feel like we're chasing Matrix. I just wanna sit in my corner and make things better.
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  365. Guus Holger I didn't see that disccussion (was it here?), but I do think that it, for instance, Matrix has shown what the effect is of XMPP clients generally offering bad UX/UI.
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  367. zinid note that I'm silent at all outside of these few rooms, I don't see how I can hurt the community
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  369. Ge0rG zinid: you have a very aggressive tone on HN, and in discussions here and in the other MUCs
  370. Holger Guus: Not sure we needed Matrix to show that, even less sure we improved anything due to Matrix :-)
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  372. zinid Ge0rG, I have 3 posts at HN, and I'm joined 3 rooms (one of them is ejabberd and I don't hurt anyone there at all)
  373. Guus Holger: we _knew_ it, but we didn't act on it. "since matrix", I've been trying harder to improve things.
  374. Andrew Nenakhov First, matrix official client riot is quite a piece of something not very good. Slow, blinking and often crashing.
  375. Guus so maybe it's just me πŸ™‚
  376. zinid Ge0rG, so I ruined everything by 3 posts?
  377. Guus (but I think it's more than just me)
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  379. Andrew Nenakhov So I don't know about what perceived quality you are talking
  380. Zash Skype was a terrible client too. Yet percieved as better than XMPP.
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  382. Andrew Nenakhov Second, on zinid's tone. I think he did (and does) more for xmpp than most. Ejabberd is great server.
  383. Zash Something something marketing
  384. Zash And network effect
  385. Seve Thing is, you are not looking with your average user eyes
  386. zinid Guus, indeed, maybe it's just you? Maybe it's something not related to the tone?
  387. Holger Andrew Nenakhov: πŸ‘
  388. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: doing good things for the community isn't a permit to behave like an asshole, though.
  389. Guus but, it's not just UX: it also follows things like funding, marketing, getting your foot behind the door of larger organizations - there's much that we can learn from them.
  390. Ge0rG Guus: ...having a good easy-to-deploy coroprate setup.
  391. Guus (Note that there's much that they can learn from us too - but more interested in learning from them πŸ™‚ )
  392. Holger Ge0rG: Awesome tone of yours.
  393. zinid Ge0rG, maybe then the XSF will remove those pages where they describe XMPP usages because of my tone? The majority of use cases are ejabberd
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  395. Zash Seve: Yeah, I don't have the same requirements or preferences as your average user. Often the excat inverse actually :)
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  398. zinid Ge0rG, and maybe the XSF will put the usages created by people from the XMPP "community"?
  399. Ge0rG zinid: what's your point, again?
  400. zinid Ge0rG, my point is that you need to be consistent
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  402. zinid at one hand I'm hurting the community, at another hand you use my product to promote XMPP
  403. Ge0rG zinid: I am. I appreciate you doing good development work for the community, while disliking your tone in public discussions.
  404. Guus I need to go -- be back in about an hour
  405. Ge0rG zinid: I'm interested in your professsional opinion on protocol matters, and that even includes ranting about XEP ugliness.
  406. zinid Ge0rG, me too, but your tone is not that great at all
  407. zinid so it's not you who should tell me about the tone
  408. pep. "Andrew Nenakhov> Second, on zinid's tone. I think he did (and does) more for xmpp than most. Ejabberd is great server.", This is just like saying "My husband beats me but he also buys me everything I want he's a great husband", (sorry zinid I didn't have any other comparison in mind :p)
  409. Ge0rG zinid: I'm guilty of a good share of ranting myself, yeah. But I try to rant about things I know about, like XMPP, in the respective community, including this place.
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  411. Andrew Nenakhov I remember recently we shared an alpha build to our upcoming grrreat xmpp client for iOS, and certain member of community started concentrating on incomplete add contact screen imstead of marvelling at consistent work with message archive, beautiful chat interface, beautiful vcards, capabilities to send files and media...
  412. Ge0rG zinid: and I also tend to adapt my tone to the "incoming" tone, which is not the best of practices.
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  416. Andrew Nenakhov Calling it a 'mockup' of an app. 😐
  417. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: you can call me out.
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  419. Zash Linus parallells?
  420. Wiktor Riot is ugly and slow indeed, but it's still more usable than anything I've seen on desktop for average user (read: looks like normal messaging app). I didn't check stuff recently though.
  421. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: I tried to login with Xabber/iOS, it went from "Authenticating" to "Offline" immediately, with no error message. I wasn't able to add contacts, nor to send or receive messages. What other conclusion should I make than that it's a mockup?
  422. zinid pep., I don't find the comparison correct, but okay πŸ˜›
  423. Andrew Nenakhov You had to try harder, I guess. It does not go offline for us with our server
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  425. Seve I think you guys are mixing topics :)
  426. zinid Seve, that happens all the time when you start discussing "tone" πŸ˜€
  427. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: I entered the wrong JID, but it didn't tell me that.
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  429. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: on the other hand, I was just using your own words, which you used to describe another iOS client, that actually works in my experience... so there is _really_ no need to feel offended ;)
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  454. Andrew Nenakhov I'm not the one here preaching politeness and ethics.
  455. Ge0rG > and I also tend to adapt my tone to the "incoming" tone, which is not the best of practices.
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  458. Andrew Nenakhov I'm actually ok with criticism. Especially when it is aimed at released products
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  463. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: so you didn't release the beta to obtain feedback, but ...?
  464. zinid Ge0rG, we also don't release betas btw
  465. Andrew Nenakhov We have access to builds cause people were asking
  466. zinid nobody use betas
  467. Andrew Nenakhov *We gave
  468. zinid XMPP software has too small user base for betas
  469. Andrew Nenakhov And we are open to a constructive feedback and bug reports. Stress on constructive.
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  471. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: what about this? > I tried to login with Xabber/iOS, it went from "Authenticating" to "Offline" immediately, with no error message. I wasn't able to add contacts, nor to send or receive messages.
  472. Andrew Nenakhov Like, filed issues on GitHub. "I can't connect to xabber.org server, app immediately goes offline".
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  475. Ge0rG Issues: 0
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  477. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: is https://github.com/redsolution/xabber-ios/issues the right place?
  478. Andrew Nenakhov That's not a constructive feedback but whining on a muc channel that I rarely visit in my spare time.
  479. Andrew Nenakhov Yes, that's the place
  480. zinid Andrew Nenakhov, Ge0rG is too proud to create issues, he only can make such advices, double standards, that is
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  484. Zash Ge0rG doesn't report issues?
  485. Wiktor I just tested Xabber Web, works and looks really nice, this is not open-source though? (thinking about self-hosting and adding support for HTTP Upload)
  486. Zash So those 61 issues in our issue tracker is an illusion then? :)
  487. zinid Zash, yeah, he only creates issues in "right" software projects
  488. zinid double standards again
  489. Andrew Nenakhov Wiktor, it's agpl and not only it does support sending files, but probably does it im a very advanced way
  490. pep. Why do you have to use superlatives all the time :x
  491. Holger Wiktor: The problem is no MUC support.
  492. Wiktor Andrew Nenakhov, oh, I didn't spot the link to source, I found that xabber accounts have file upload but my own that supports http upload :0 didn't work
  493. Wiktor Holger, oh, I didn't go as far as that in my tests, thanks for input
  494. Wiktor for the record here's the source: https://github.com/redsolution/xabber-web
  495. Holger Wiktor: They do a custom MUC replacement.
  496. Wiktor ah, yep, now I recalled that, got it
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  498. Zash pep.: superlatives is the key to the reality distortion field, don't you know?
  499. Ge0rG zinid: https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/issues?utf8=βœ“&q=is%3Aissue+author%3Age0rg is not as impressive as with other projects, but I'm not even a user of ejabberd.
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  503. zinid Ge0rG, I'm aware of those, yes
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  506. Ge0rG zinid: I'm with Guus here. Please tone down.
  507. zinid Ge0rG, my tone is fine, please back off
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  509. Ge0rG zinid: "Ge0rG is too proud to create issues, he only can make such advices, double standards, that is"
  510. Ge0rG zinid: oh, wait. I didn't see the </s>
  511. Zash Is this going to end with a CoC?
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  514. Ge0rG Zash: only if it's St. Benedicts.
  515. zinid nah, they don't need CoC to ban XMPP developers πŸ˜‰
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  522. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: also in the past, I've had some questionable experience with reporting issues to xabber-* projects. https://github.com/redsolution/xabber-android/issues/839 is the less controversial one.
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  526. MattJ Andrew Nenakhov, what XMPP servers don't support MAM pagination?
  527. MattJ (re https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.xabber.android&reviewId=gp%3AAOqpTOHSQsuOQ0KIwNFHOY0ECYRaQZ4PVHpQppwVRTmXr8z06YGRbaP5M32yrq9RericFG1i3UlA4cMhN9SJE8M )
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  531. pep. Even our own community members are spreading FUD, yay
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  535. Andrew Nenakhov > Why do you have to use superlatives all the time :x How many clients you know that can send several images at once and present a niiice gallery to view them? Or send voice messages?
  536. lorddavidiii has left
  537. Andrew Nenakhov Ge0rG, if you are that bothered by our vCard handling you can send us a pull request.
  538. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: is that your answer to all my issues?
  539. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: I will be glad to send you pull requests for everything you ask me to, you just need to pay my employer our standard consulting fee.
  540. lorddavidiii has joined
  541. Andrew Nenakhov MattJ, you are out of context about pagination. Guy was asking why we load many messages - but we load only 1 (one) message from every conversation.
  542. Andrew Nenakhov And there is no way to load all recent conversations but by polling all contacts I roster
  543. Andrew Nenakhov And since answers on Google play are limited to just 350characters there is no much space for details
  544. Andrew Nenakhov Because per our customer service policy we also have to insult jerky entitled commenters
  545. zinid πŸ˜€
  546. pep. First the "You know nothing!" is nice, and then I understood it exactly as MattJ did. It's really badly explained in that answer. "XMPP servers DO NOT support pagination" can mean quite a few things
  547. Half-ShotX has joined
  548. Alex memberbot is online and will accept your votes for the Q1-2019 membership applications
  549. Wiktor You know nothing, Jon Snow. :)
  550. Andrew Nenakhov Ge0rG, oh so we have to fix your problems with our app for free then, but you are willing to change us your standard consulting fee, uh oh
  551. pep. Alex, thanks!
  552. intosi Thanks Alex.
  553. Andrew Nenakhov pep., Yes, technically you are right. We should have been more technically precise
  554. alacer has joined
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  556. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: I report problems with your app for free, and I expect that you at least fix protocol violations.
  557. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: you are paying your developers to write the app, so why shouldn't I expect you to pay me to fix your code, if you want me to do it for you? :P
  558. Half-ShotX has left
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  560. Andrew Nenakhov There was a guy somewhere here who was running around GitHub and spamming all the projects with nonsense issues like compatibility suite. I think he was thinking that he was doing a great community service.
  561. pep. A votΓ© !
  562. Andrew Nenakhov Just saying.
  563. moparisthebest has left
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  565. Andrew Nenakhov Ge0rG, if you are having a problem with our code, I don't expect you to fix it, but to wait till we get to fixing it. If you are really impatient you may send us a fix, we rarely turn down PRs
  566. moparisthebest has joined
  567. zinid Andrew Nenakhov, he is right now ranting in ejabberd@ room πŸ˜€
  568. zinid we don't want to support his precious SCRAM-SHA-256 πŸ™
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  571. Andrew Nenakhov Lazy developer asses you are!
  572. krauq has left
  573. zinid Andrew Nenakhov, hum, I thought XMPP is all about endless discussions and meetings, no? Should we implement something? I'm confused πŸ€”
  574. Half-ShotX has joined
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  576. Andrew Nenakhov Have you read a post-meritocracy manifesto?
  577. zinid no
  578. Andrew Nenakhov These core values and principles are: We do not believe that our value as human beings is intrinsically tied to our value as knowledge workers. Our professions do not define us; we are more than the work we do. We believe that interpersonal skills are at least as important as technical skills. We can add the most value as professionals by drawing on the diversity of our identities, backgrounds, experiences, and perspectives. Homogeneity is an antipattern.
  579. Andrew Nenakhov https://postmeritocracy.org/
  580. zinid how does this relate? stop confusing me, plz
  581. Lance has left
  582. Andrew Nenakhov I mean, we are doing everything wrong by trying to build something.
  583. Andrew Nenakhov We must be friendly and open an inclusive
  584. Andrew Nenakhov And then things will somehow get themselves done
  585. Half-ShotX has left
  586. Andrew Nenakhov By our welcoming community.
  587. pep. I think we haven't addressed the elephant in the room that is the language barrier
  588. zinid Andrew Nenakhov, we also need to attract those pissed minority, they will do the job for us πŸ˜€
  589. Andrew Nenakhov zinid, so now you plan to EXPLOIT offended minorities??! You monster.
  590. zinid I just suggest the solutions
  591. zinid and you only criticize me
  592. goffi has left
  593. Andrew Nenakhov Ok guys jokes aside, have to go off chat. Need to oversee updates to three xmpp clients and some more projects. Unfortunately so far we don't have any minorities in our team (though gender diversity is pretty high, 40% of our developer team are females!)
  594. pep. out of?
  595. Half-ShotX has joined
  596. Andrew Nenakhov Currently, there are 5 developers plus one sysamin and me
  597. pep. Cool :)
  598. Andrew Nenakhov Also one fringe member who works on designing required protocol extensions
  599. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: it would be great if you could triage incoming bug requests and say whether you are going to fix them or not, and if yes then on which time frame
  600. jmpman has left
  601. Andrew Nenakhov Actually we have trouble keeping up with GitHubs tracker. We treat is a public backlog for now, and we rely on internal redmine tracker for real development.
  602. Andrew Nenakhov Problem with GitHub is that it gets spammed all to quickly with all sorts of request, so it takes a lot of time just to sort it,
  603. Wiktor Andrew Nenakhov, I agree, I've seen this problem with another project I've been involved with, too much noise
  604. zinid +1, and if you don't address that spam your bugtracker looks like a pile of πŸ’©
  605. Ge0rG Just close down the tracker then?
  606. zinid just cut off the head, yeah
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  610. Andrew Nenakhov Some day in the future we'll hire a support team and will probably retain issue creation for team only.
  611. Andrew Nenakhov So to file bug report users will need to email their problem to us and we'll publish only verified issues.
  612. Half-ShotX has left
  613. Andrew Nenakhov But this may also work bad. So for the time being we're mostly treating GitHub issues like a toxic dump and try to avoid it :(
  614. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: let me try to find a better phrasing for my point: if you want people to report more issues, you should have a process where reported issues are at least categorized on a somewhat timely scale.
  615. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: some hours ago, you asked me to report my issues on github.
  616. Andrew Nenakhov They actually are. I add labels to them!
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  618. Andrew Nenakhov Xabber for Web GitHub tracker so far had zero issues, so it was less dreadful 😁
  619. contrapunctus has left
  620. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: so you only want me to report on github about xabber-web and xabber-ios but not about xabber-android? :D
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  623. Andrew Nenakhov Also, your bug reports are pointless and wasteful.
  624. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: okay, so you don't want me to report issues at all?
  625. Andrew Nenakhov This is an incomplete portion of app, so it just works for us. What is the point reacting on it when we know we'll rebuild everything there?
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  628. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: so you admit it's just a mockup? 😁
  629. Andrew Nenakhov Probably yes, Georg, you better not report issues to us. Use some Dino or Gajim or Conversations or even Yaxim.
  630. Andrew Nenakhov Ge0rG, no, it's a very functional xmpp client that has a couple of incomplete interfaces, both of which are truly trivial.
  631. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: point taken.
  632. Half-ShotX has joined
  633. Andrew Nenakhov You see, what's the point making beautiful login interface for an app if we suspect there will be some trouble down the road that we might not be able to solve?
  634. Andrew Nenakhov So we concentrate on hard things first. Trivial things and polish later.
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  639. Guus Zash a couple of weeks ago you were about to test something in Openfire - there was a breakdown of s2s somewhere halfway in our conversation - were you able to reproduce that issue?
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  641. Guus initial presence echo, I think was what the issue related to.
  642. Zash Guus: Hmm, can you provide more hints to help me remember?
  643. Half-ShotX has left
  644. Zash Ah. I think I found that to be working now.
  645. Guus \o/
  646. Guus Thanks
  647. Guus edhelas - that's one of your issues with Openfire, btw.
  648. Guus so hopefully, that's gone now.
  649. Zash Guus: If you want a project for the day, try getting scansion ( MattJs test runner) up and running :)
  650. Guus Zash I'm actually interested - but it's one of a long list of awesome stuff I want do get done πŸ™‚
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  654. Guus > Guus: ...having a good easy-to-deploy coroprate setup. You mentioned that earlier, Ge0rG - that's actually something that Openfire strives to do. Any thoughts/pointers there?
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  657. Zash Hold on, I'm under the impression that that's already a strong point of Openfire, leave some for us too ;)
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  660. Ge0rG Guus: I haven't run openfire yet, but having a short introduction article on how to host it with all mobile features enabled, and integrate it with your AD and stay compliant to GDPR, would be great.
  661. Guus Zash you get _all other_ stuff πŸ™‚
  662. Guus GDPR is something we haven't touched on
  663. Guus LDAP (AD?) integration you get out of the box
  664. Guus 'all mobile features' likely means enabling some plugins, that we're planning to ship as a default set in the future.
  665. Ge0rG Guus [13:48]: > GDPR is something we haven't touched on That's a tough sell in the EU
  666. Half-ShotX has left
  667. Guus Ge0rG - if you think that 'easy corporate setup' fills an important gap in what we have for XMPP, I'd love for you to look at Openfire for that - see if we can improve it more in just that (I think, like Zash suggests, its already pretty well on its way in that direction). I do see value for Openfire to specialize there.
  668. Guus Yeah, you're absolutely right.
  669. dele Guus I hope XEP-0357: Push Notifications is in your long list of awesomeness. It will help reduce the battery power drain when using Conversations with Openfire
  670. Guus dele yes, yes
  671. dele πŸ™‚
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  674. Zash Got CSI?
  675. Guus Zash, I have working code that advertises the feature, but as I couldn't find anything that would actually benefit from CSI without breaking spec (mostly the out-of-order restriction, iirc), I've never pushed that.
  676. MattJ Guus, in theory a significant benefit comes from just witholding unimportant stanzas for $time and sending them together in batches
  677. Zash Yeah, messing with the ordering is just ... icky.
  678. Zash types "xep" and 3 random digits into a search engine and gets https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0286.html
  679. MattJ If you do more than that you're in dangerous territory, and even doing just that requires some work to get right
  680. Guus MattJ It's all a bit further away in my memory, but if I recall correctly, I thought that, practically, there wouldn't be to much value to it.
  681. Guus (I might be very wrong)
  682. Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0286.html#sect-idm45485296239888 > 4.1 Transmit no data > 4.2 When transmitting, transmit as much as you can
  683. Half-ShotX has joined
  684. Zash That sums up a good strategy.
  685. Zash Harder to quantify that tho
  686. Guus Yeah - I was basically wondering if it effectively is worth the added complexity of CSI, in practice. That's why I held off.
  687. MattJ Guus, look up the study that found the Pandora music streaming client used 90% of its battery consumption on 2% of the traffic (because it downloaded all the track at the start [good], and then sent periodic pings back to the server [bad])
  688. Guus MattJ but doesn't SM affect that more than CSI?
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  690. flow I think it is possible that even a trival CSI server implementation just withholding presence stanzas would have an measurable impact on battery life
  691. Zash Wasn't that part of SM removed?
  692. Guus flow if that's true, then I sit here corrected.
  693. Guus my completely uneducated guess was that that's not a meaningful change
  694. Guus (as there's plenty of traffic that would cause the buffer to flush)
  695. Zash Plenty of presence can be bunched up in batches
  696. flow Guus, well it clearly depends on the exact use case. But you could possiblly easly measure the longest idle time for the connection and compare the values with and without CSI
  697. flow or s/use case/user/
  698. Guus Yeah, that's a thought.
  699. Guus Also, I'm not saying that there's absolutely no merit in CSI
  700. Zash Measuring would be good tho
  701. Guus but the discussion I had at the time made me re-evaluate the priority of that added to Openfire
  702. Guus so I kicked that can down the road
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  704. Guus So, yeah, GDPR, possibly CSI... what more enterprisy stuff is XMPP lacking? (or do you think is lacking because you've not tried our most awesome server)?
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  707. Zash As a self-hosting proponent I'd prefer to see CSI prioritized over push notifications, since that ties into Google and Apple.
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  709. Guus _completely_ unrelated: when tailing a logfile, it's easy to put in a marker by hitting enter, which introduces a blank line. Can you do something similar when following in less?
  710. Half-ShotX has left
  711. Guus Zash, I don't think that there are self-hosted alternatives to clients running on Google and Apple (apart from web clients that don't have particularly good UX on mobile phones)?
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  716. Guus In other words: adding Push Notifications doesn't hurt self-hosting?
  717. Zash It doesn't help with mobile OSes killing your app, but it does help with power usage.
  718. Zash CSI doesn't help with mobile OSes killing your app, but it does help with power usage.
  719. Guus I'm not saying CSI is useless - I just wondered how you compared it against push notifications. Support for either XEP would benefit the exact same clients, I think.
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  723. Wiktor Guus, CSI doesn't help if your app is killed, push is handled by system and will start your app if it's not running (e.g. killed by aggressive battery optimization).
  724. Guus Wiktor, that sounds about right
  725. pep. Android clients should all implement VoIP to get past the push business :P
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  727. Wiktor Both are useful, it's just their use-case areas do not overlap perfectly :)
  728. Guus I think I'm confusing people. I didn't want to say either CSI or Push is better or worse than the other. I only didn't understand the argument to prefer Push _as that's better for self-hosting_
  729. Guus doesn't really matter anyways
  730. Guus I was just curious
  731. pep. Conversations has really worked fine for me without any push support (I run the fdroid build)
  732. Zash But then need for agressive murderous battery savings can be mitigated somewhat by CSI
  733. pep. Guus, no that's the opposite, **to prefer CSI
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  735. Guus pep. err, right - but my question remains: I'm not seeing that there's a difference for the _self-hosted_ aspect of things.
  736. pep. Using push means I am dependent on the developer's Push server
  737. Wiktor for self-hosting? push is no problem for server operators, rather to client developers (as they need to operate push proxy server). Or maybe I misunderstood what you meant
  738. Half-ShotX has left
  739. pep. If I decide to self-host that push server, that means I have to rebuild the app, and register that to google(?), provide it in the play store etc.
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  741. Zash Guus: I don't get no push notifications. So I personally don't directly benefit from push. Mostly it annoys me with implying that XMPP isn't push already.
  742. Guus Zash ok, sure - if you'd not use it even if the feature was available, then it makes sense to want to have a different feature first πŸ™‚
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  745. Guus Wiktor no, you did not misunderstand me. That exactly was my confusion.
  746. Wiktor Okay!
  747. Guus (and I naively assumed that 'self-hosting' only applied to the XMPP server itself)
  748. Wiktor Yeah, well, I wouldn't use "self-hosting" to describe running your own push node, just like I wouldn't use it to describe forking a client, but that's just semantics I guess
  749. Zash No push notifications in my phone OS that I know of either.
  750. Guus Zash sure, but then you're running something that the vast, vast majority of corporate users isn't running.
  751. Half-ShotX has left
  752. Wiktor for the record there are alternative push services to google, random example: https://developer.huawei.com/consumer/en/devservice/doc/20102
  753. alacer has joined
  754. Zash Fun fact: the first implementation of push notifications for prosody was tested against an SMS API
  755. Guus Which says more about the developer than the intended use case, I think πŸ™‚
  756. Guus intended/expected
  757. Half-ShotX has joined
  758. Zash :)
  759. Zash The part that sits in the XMPP server doesn't need to know anything about the push server, so why not
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  792. Seve MattJ, you mentioned that if XMPP started today, it would not use XML. What do you think would it be, and why?
  793. MattJ A good question :)
  794. Zash Probably depends on who started it
  795. MattJ The thing is, I personally believe XML was, and still is, a great fit for XMPP
  796. pep. The X in XMPP stands for XML right, there's no way we use something else
  797. MattJ The reason is that it has namespaces right there
  798. MattJ Namespaces in most formats tend to end up pretty ugly at the end of the day
  799. Zash JSON with namespaces and schema isn't really nicer than XML
  800. zinid this is not a technical question, but marketing
  801. pep. But why use namespaces when you can have everything included (!! No I'm not trying to revive the discussion :p)
  802. zinid XML has bad reputation already
  803. Zash XML got a bad reputation because it was popular and used for things where it wasn't a good fit
  804. zinid Zash, does it matter why?
  805. Zash JSON is used for things today where it's not a good fit.
  806. Zash zinid: Does anything matter?
  807. zinid Zash, yes, something definitely matters
  808. Guus fwiw, I've found that standardizing anything on XML is easier than doing the same on JSON.
  809. zinid but not why XML got "outdated"
  810. MattJ Everything gets outdated
  811. Guus and I agree with zinid, XML has a bad reputation - I think that's primarily caused by the fact that it's hard to use for people that use it in a usecase where json is a better fit.
  812. Zash Bring back ASN.1!
  813. zinid Zash, yes!111
  814. zinid let's call it ASN.2
  815. zinid new exciting thingy
  816. Guus ASN.2.0 <-- you need the marketing thingy!
  817. Zash Is binary, has schema, namespaces, all the bells and whistles anyone could want
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  819. Zash Or well, ASN.1 is ... the schema?
  820. zinid Zash, I think it's schema + encoding, no?
  821. MattJ Seve, none of this answers your question. The answer is probably "HTTP+JSON" and because that's what people use for everything today...
  822. zinid MattJ, yeah, but HTTP+JSON is a very rigid construction, it doesn't fit everything
  823. Guus I would call JSON many things, but not 'rigid'. πŸ™‚
  824. MattJ zinid, it's k->v pairs + arrays, it does fit everything :)
  825. MattJ Maybe not optimally, but it can be done
  826. MattJ Note that I'm not saying it would be a good idea
  827. Zash MattJ: Did you see the thing I played with this morning? It failed sometimes because of the order of keys in JSON objects.
  828. MattJ Fun
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  831. zinid well, they invented CBOR, which has 1:1 mapping with JSON, why?
  832. Zash CBOR is nice
  833. zinid btw, CBOR is even more compact than ASN.1
  834. Zash zinid: That doesn't make sense
  835. zinid Zash, what exactly?
  836. Seve MattJ, I didn't say anything because I'm interested on the topic and wanted to know what people say. I was just wondering when you mentioned that, if you had some other solution for it that could replace XML today for XMPP or if you had in mind the popularity JSON has these days. Very appreciated :)
  837. MattJ Seve, no, I have no better solution in mind
  838. Zash zinid: Is CBOR more compact than PER or the one I forget the name of that's ΓΌltra-compact bit packing?
  839. zinid Zash, I think there is comparison with DER in RFC 7049
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  841. Zash I wrote a CBOR lib, so I think CBOR is nice. It can fit Lua tables natively, as opposed to JSON.
  842. zinid ah, BER!!!
  843. zinid https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7049#appendix-E
  844. Zash CBOR is pretty compact for something that is self-describing
  845. Zash BER & co is also self-describing
  846. zinid > 3. no schema description needed That's a moot advantage of CBOR, tbh
  847. Zash But I imagine schema-aware magic like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packed_Encoding_Rules#Packed_Encoding_Rules can be more compact
  848. zinid Zash, indeed, I think PER is more compact than BER
  849. Half-ShotX has left
  850. Zash But then you you lose the self-describingness and need the schema to decode
  851. zinid schemas are awesome
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  853. zinid ejabberd internally uses schemas only, no XML parsing
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  855. Wiktor Yep, CBOR is nice, every time I see base64 used nowadays I cry a little as this is just a workaround for the inability to directly store binary...
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  858. zinid I still think ASN.1 is the best! Except maybe Cobol'ish syntax, but I can live with that
  859. Zash Can haz CBOR encoding rules
  860. zinid Zash, ah, true
  861. pep. zinid, what kind of schemas do you use in ejabberd exactly?
  862. zinid pep., hand-made
  863. pep. I mean, what schemas, what tech, XML schemas?
  864. pep. schemas doing what
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  866. zinid pep., no, erlang'ish, https://github.com/processone/xmpp/blob/master/specs/xmpp_codec.spec
  867. zinid pep., the schema tells the codec how to decode/encode XML into internal Erlang structures
  868. zinid so basically same stuff as ASN.1
  869. pep. interesting
  870. pep. That also builds parsers etc.?
  871. zinid really? Link Mauve is working on the same for Rust, I thought it's already well recognized approach
  872. zinid pep., yes
  873. Wiktor for the record stanza.io does something similar: https://github.com/legastero/stanza.io/blob/master/src/protocol/stanzas/bookmarks.js#L6-L28
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  875. pep. zinid, yes, and I'm also working on it, but we have an XML parser in there
  876. pep. Well, we expect parsed structures already, we don't handle raw strings
  877. zinid pep., well, yes, an XML parser translates into internal XML Erlang representation, then the codec converts the representation into valid Erlang records (kinda structures in C)
  878. pep. Ok. I was confused for a sec
  879. zinid so it has two passes, which is of course not very efficient
  880. pep. But you gain a lot more with that anyway. And it's already way more efficient than doing the same in python, hands down..
  881. zinid pep., <message/> -> #xml{} -> #message{}
  882. pep. Okay
  883. zinid think of #foo{} as a C structure
  884. Wiktor too bad this can't be derived automatically from schema in xeps :)
  885. pep. Wiktor, indeed
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  887. pep. zinid, yeah I get it
  888. zinid yes, so stanza.io guys, myself and Link Mauve are reinventing it from scratch
  889. pep. We do the same in xmpp-parsers anyway
  890. zinid what surprized me, is that ejabberd became faster with such approach
  891. Zash Wiktor: Was this because of the schemas being incomplete or XML schema itself not being capable of expressing things sufficiently?
  892. Link Mauve Completely unsurprised. ^^
  893. pep. Zash, both? I guess, mostly the latter
  894. Wiktor I remember schemas being incomplete when I tried parsing XSD -> TypeScript using a library (just a PoC), then there were issues with the library not supporting all constructs of XSD correctly
  895. zinid Link Mauve, maybe for you πŸ™‚ but I had doubts back then, I was thinking about slowing a bit
  896. zinid the problem with XML schemas is that you cannot build structures for your language from them
  897. zinid at least I don't know how to do that
  898. Wiktor Zash, e.g. https://github.com/spreeuwers/xsd2ts/issues/1
  899. zinid I'm not proud of inventing my own schema at all
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  902. Link Mauve Yeah, me neither.
  903. Link Mauve But it was mandatory given xsd doesn’t help with internal structs.
  904. Wiktor well you can build structures but you need to write the xsd -> target language translator first, and that wouldn't be a weekend project, probably with a lot of bugs etc.
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  907. zinid Wiktor, yeah
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  910. Wiktor and then write that translator for every Nth language... etc. so making a small DSL now is less work it seems
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  966. Ge0rG Aww, now I missed all the ordered JSON and DER discussion, so it's too late to come up with Canonical JSON <https://matrix.org/docs/spec/appendices.html#canonical-json>
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  970. Maranda "Canonical" πŸ€”πŸ€”
  971. Maranda ?
  972. Maranda Huhuhu
  973. Maranda just opened that link
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  983. ralphm also no floats
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  1023. pep. https://bouah.net/2019/02/slixmpp-gets-omemo-support/ !
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  1031. zinid pep.: you too 😁
  1032. pep. I know right
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  1050. vanitasvitae pep.: great!
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  1052. pep. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19247856 for HN clickers
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  1098. Guus Despite Alex's mail, I'm not getting a response from memberbot
  1099. Guus is it online?
  1100. pep. It was earlier
  1101. Alex lemme check
  1102. Guus ah, it started to respond now
  1103. Alex just restarted the bot
  1104. Half-ShotX has left
  1105. Guus it responded to my message that I sent 6 minutes earlier
  1106. Guus unsure where that got stuck
  1107. Guus well, I voted. πŸ™‚
  1108. Guus Thanks Alex
  1109. Alex (Y)
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