I know I'm late to the party but I don't agree arguing vs. Matrix is bad and counter-productive. As a user I may well be interested in the pros and cons as seen by those involved in the protocols.
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zinid
Holger: 👍
Zash
Know thy bias
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Holger
It's quite common that participants in discussions are biased :-)
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zinid
I also don't understand this: several XMPP folks walk around and try to convince some communities to install XMPP instead of Matrix (KDE is such an example, I think Seve tried to convince them, I also recall that Licaon_Kter were trying the same in another community). So, if we don't "fight", let's just give up and let them installing Matrix? So those XMPP folks are just wasting time?
Ge0rG
Holger: I think it's all about being polite and open to feedback and insights from the other side.
Ge0rG
Also I'm ashamed about how some of "us" are bashing "them" on every possible occasion
zinid
yeah, people are obsessed with politeness
zinid
facts don't matter anymore even in high-tech community, you just need to be polite
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Ge0rG
zinid: facts don't matter as long as you are impolite, in any community, since ever. Except when you are the dictator and can just ignore people's feelings.
zinid
how does the fact relates to politeness?
zinid
the earth is not flat, whatever you like it to be
Holger
Ge0rG: That's just not true. Different people, different tone, in any community, since ever. I feel it's a more recent-ish fashion to discuss tone all day, but you won't change it no matter how much energy you put into such meta discussions.
zinid
I also find it strange to focus on the tone endlessly
Guus
We focus on tone as yours is actively scaring people away. I understand that you don't consider your tone to be offensive. However, it is to a lot of people that do not share your background. This is how you can do damage to the community as a whole, even when your intentions are nobel. When discussing in a group of people with mixed backgrounds, it is best to err on the side of caution.
zinid
you see, again this 😀
Guus
Yes, and I will, as long as I feel that you are hurting the community.
Ge0rG
Guus: thanks, that's exactly what I wanted to say, but lacked the right words for
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zinid
Guus, who is the community?
zinid
this room?
Guus
A mix of people of varied backgrounds.
zinid
yeah, very precise definition
Ge0rG
"the people who want to make XMPP more successful" would be a better one.
Holger
So this was just all about tone. I'm sorry I stirred this up.
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zinid
Guus, btw, did you think that Matrix did more harm to our community by attracting them to Matrix?
Ge0rG
zinid: Matrix didn't do harm to our community. We did that harm by not providing the same perceived quality as Matrix.
zinid
we...
Ge0rG
(part of that is also yelling at our users)
Guus
I think XMPP was very complacent before Matrix. Now that they're around, we are more motivated to get things up to spec.
zinid
Ge0rG, I never heard that someone switched to Matrix because XMPP community is agressive
pep.
Guus, you mean forced? :P
Guus
zinid, I've had various talks with people that think XMPP people are acting like dicks.
zinid
Guus, and I didn't
zinid
I mean I never heard that
Guus
zinid, I have been trying to tell you over and over and over.
Ge0rG
zinid: maybe because you've got a reputation?
Holger
Guus: "Now that they're around, we are more motivated to get things up to spec." Really? I argued against someone making that statement just this morning. You feel XEP or software development is pushed by the competition from Matrix?
zinid
Ge0rG, so it's "you" but "we"?
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zinid
Ge0rG, so it's "me" who hurt the community, but hypothetical "we" when you want to describe your failure?
Guus
Holger I didn't see that disccussion (was it here), but I do think that it, for instance, Matrix has shown what the effect is of XMPP clients generally offering bad UX/UI.
Zash
I sure don't feel like we're chasing Matrix. I just wanna sit in my corner and make things better.
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Guus
Holger I didn't see that disccussion (was it here?), but I do think that it, for instance, Matrix has shown what the effect is of XMPP clients generally offering bad UX/UI.
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zinid
note that I'm silent at all outside of these few rooms, I don't see how I can hurt the community
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Ge0rG
zinid: you have a very aggressive tone on HN, and in discussions here and in the other MUCs
Holger
Guus: Not sure we needed Matrix to show that, even less sure we improved anything due to Matrix :-)
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zinid
Ge0rG, I have 3 posts at HN, and I'm joined 3 rooms (one of them is ejabberd and I don't hurt anyone there at all)
Guus
Holger: we _knew_ it, but we didn't act on it. "since matrix", I've been trying harder to improve things.
Andrew Nenakhov
First, matrix official client riot is quite a piece of something not very good. Slow, blinking and often crashing.
Guus
so maybe it's just me 🙂
zinid
Ge0rG, so I ruined everything by 3 posts?
Guus
(but I think it's more than just me)
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Andrew Nenakhov
So I don't know about what perceived quality you are talking
Zash
Skype was a terrible client too. Yet percieved as better than XMPP.
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Andrew Nenakhov
Second, on zinid's tone. I think he did (and does) more for xmpp than most. Ejabberd is great server.
Zash
Something something marketing
Zash
And network effect
Seve
Thing is, you are not looking with your average user eyes
zinid
Guus, indeed, maybe it's just you? Maybe it's something not related to the tone?
Holger
Andrew Nenakhov: 👍
Ge0rG
Andrew Nenakhov: doing good things for the community isn't a permit to behave like an asshole, though.
Guus
but, it's not just UX: it also follows things like funding, marketing, getting your foot behind the door of larger organizations - there's much that we can learn from them.
Ge0rG
Guus: ...having a good easy-to-deploy coroprate setup.
Guus
(Note that there's much that they can learn from us too - but more interested in learning from them 🙂 )
Holger
Ge0rG: Awesome tone of yours.
zinid
Ge0rG, maybe then the XSF will remove those pages where they describe XMPP usages because of my tone? The majority of use cases are ejabberd
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Zash
Seve: Yeah, I don't have the same requirements or preferences as your average user. Often the excat inverse actually :)
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zinid
Ge0rG, and maybe the XSF will put the usages created by people from the XMPP "community"?
Ge0rG
zinid: what's your point, again?
zinid
Ge0rG, my point is that you need to be consistent
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zinid
at one hand I'm hurting the community, at another hand you use my product to promote XMPP
Ge0rG
zinid: I am. I appreciate you doing good development work for the community, while disliking your tone in public discussions.
Guus
I need to go -- be back in about an hour
Ge0rG
zinid: I'm interested in your professsional opinion on protocol matters, and that even includes ranting about XEP ugliness.
zinid
Ge0rG, me too, but your tone is not that great at all
zinid
so it's not you who should tell me about the tone
pep.
"Andrew Nenakhov> Second, on zinid's tone. I think he did (and does) more for xmpp than most. Ejabberd is great server.", This is just like saying "My husband beats me but he also buys me everything I want he's a great husband", (sorry zinid I didn't have any other comparison in mind :p)
Ge0rG
zinid: I'm guilty of a good share of ranting myself, yeah. But I try to rant about things I know about, like XMPP, in the respective community, including this place.
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Andrew Nenakhov
I remember recently we shared an alpha build to our upcoming grrreat xmpp client for iOS, and certain member of community started concentrating on incomplete add contact screen imstead of marvelling at consistent work with message archive, beautiful chat interface, beautiful vcards, capabilities to send files and media...
Ge0rG
zinid: and I also tend to adapt my tone to the "incoming" tone, which is not the best of practices.
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Andrew Nenakhov
Calling it a 'mockup' of an app. 😐
Ge0rG
Andrew Nenakhov: you can call me out.
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Zash
Linus parallells?
Wiktor
Riot is ugly and slow indeed, but it's still more usable than anything I've seen on desktop for average user (read: looks like normal messaging app). I didn't check stuff recently though.
Ge0rG
Andrew Nenakhov: I tried to login with Xabber/iOS, it went from "Authenticating" to "Offline" immediately, with no error message. I wasn't able to add contacts, nor to send or receive messages. What other conclusion should I make than that it's a mockup?
zinid
pep., I don't find the comparison correct, but okay 😛
Andrew Nenakhov
You had to try harder, I guess. It does not go offline for us with our server
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Seve
I think you guys are mixing topics :)
zinid
Seve, that happens all the time when you start discussing "tone" 😀
Ge0rG
Andrew Nenakhov: I entered the wrong JID, but it didn't tell me that.
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Ge0rG
Andrew Nenakhov: on the other hand, I was just using your own words, which you used to describe another iOS client, that actually works in my experience... so there is _really_ no need to feel offended ;)
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Andrew Nenakhov
I'm not the one here preaching politeness and ethics.
Ge0rG
> and I also tend to adapt my tone to the "incoming" tone, which is not the best of practices.
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Andrew Nenakhov
I'm actually ok with criticism. Especially when it is aimed at released products
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Ge0rG
Andrew Nenakhov: so you didn't release the beta to obtain feedback, but ...?
zinid
Ge0rG, we also don't release betas btw
Andrew Nenakhov
We have access to builds cause people were asking
zinid
nobody use betas
Andrew Nenakhov
*We gave
zinid
XMPP software has too small user base for betas
Andrew Nenakhov
And we are open to a constructive feedback and bug reports. Stress on constructive.
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Ge0rG
Andrew Nenakhov: what about this?
> I tried to login with Xabber/iOS, it went from "Authenticating" to "Offline" immediately, with no error message. I wasn't able to add contacts, nor to send or receive messages.
Andrew Nenakhov
Like, filed issues on GitHub. "I can't connect to xabber.org server, app immediately goes offline".
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Ge0rG
Issues: 0
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Ge0rG
Andrew Nenakhov: is https://github.com/redsolution/xabber-ios/issues the right place?
Andrew Nenakhov
That's not a constructive feedback but whining on a muc channel that I rarely visit in my spare time.
Andrew Nenakhov
Yes, that's the place
zinid
Andrew Nenakhov, Ge0rG is too proud to create issues, he only can make such advices, double standards, that is
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Zash
Ge0rG doesn't report issues?
Wiktor
I just tested Xabber Web, works and looks really nice, this is not open-source though? (thinking about self-hosting and adding support for HTTP Upload)
Zash
So those 61 issues in our issue tracker is an illusion then? :)
zinid
Zash, yeah, he only creates issues in "right" software projects
zinid
double standards again
Andrew Nenakhov
Wiktor, it's agpl and not only it does support sending files, but probably does it im a very advanced way
pep.
Why do you have to use superlatives all the time :x
Holger
Wiktor: The problem is no MUC support.
Wiktor
Andrew Nenakhov, oh, I didn't spot the link to source, I found that xabber accounts have file upload but my own that supports http upload :0 didn't work
Wiktor
Holger, oh, I didn't go as far as that in my tests, thanks for input
Wiktor
for the record here's the source: https://github.com/redsolution/xabber-web
Holger
Wiktor: They do a custom MUC replacement.
Wiktor
ah, yep, now I recalled that, got it
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Zash
pep.: superlatives is the key to the reality distortion field, don't you know?
Ge0rG
zinid: https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/issues?utf8=✓&q=is%3Aissue+author%3Age0rg is not as impressive as with other projects, but I'm not even a user of ejabberd.
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zinid
Ge0rG, I'm aware of those, yes
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Ge0rG
zinid: I'm with Guus here. Please tone down.
zinid
Ge0rG, my tone is fine, please back off
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Ge0rG
zinid: "Ge0rG is too proud to create issues, he only can make such advices, double standards, that is"
Ge0rG
zinid: oh, wait. I didn't see the </s>
Zash
Is this going to end with a CoC?
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Ge0rG
Zash: only if it's St. Benedicts.
zinid
nah, they don't need CoC to ban XMPP developers 😉
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Ge0rG
Andrew Nenakhov: also in the past, I've had some questionable experience with reporting issues to xabber-* projects. https://github.com/redsolution/xabber-android/issues/839 is the less controversial one.
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MattJ
Andrew Nenakhov, what XMPP servers don't support MAM pagination?
Even our own community members are spreading FUD, yay
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Andrew Nenakhov
> Why do you have to use superlatives all the time :x
How many clients you know that can send several images at once and present a niiice gallery to view them? Or send voice messages?
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Andrew Nenakhov
Ge0rG, if you are that bothered by our vCard handling you can send us a pull request.
Ge0rG
Andrew Nenakhov: is that your answer to all my issues?
Ge0rG
Andrew Nenakhov: I will be glad to send you pull requests for everything you ask me to, you just need to pay my employer our standard consulting fee.
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Andrew Nenakhov
MattJ, you are out of context about pagination. Guy was asking why we load many messages - but we load only 1 (one) message from every conversation.
Andrew Nenakhov
And there is no way to load all recent conversations but by polling all contacts I roster
Andrew Nenakhov
And since answers on Google play are limited to just 350characters there is no much space for details
Andrew Nenakhov
Because per our customer service policy we also have to insult jerky entitled commenters
zinid
😀
pep.
First the "You know nothing!" is nice, and then I understood it exactly as MattJ did. It's really badly explained in that answer. "XMPP servers DO NOT support pagination" can mean quite a few things
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Alex
memberbot is online and will accept your votes for the Q1-2019 membership applications
Wiktor
You know nothing, Jon Snow. :)
Andrew Nenakhov
Ge0rG, oh so we have to fix your problems with our app for free then, but you are willing to change us your standard consulting fee, uh oh
pep.
Alex, thanks!
intosi
Thanks Alex.
Andrew Nenakhov
pep., Yes, technically you are right. We should have been more technically precise
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Ge0rG
Andrew Nenakhov: I report problems with your app for free, and I expect that you at least fix protocol violations.
Ge0rG
Andrew Nenakhov: you are paying your developers to write the app, so why shouldn't I expect you to pay me to fix your code, if you want me to do it for you? :P
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Andrew Nenakhov
There was a guy somewhere here who was running around GitHub and spamming all the projects with nonsense issues like compatibility suite. I think he was thinking that he was doing a great community service.
pep.
A voté !
Andrew Nenakhov
Just saying.
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Andrew Nenakhov
Ge0rG, if you are having a problem with our code, I don't expect you to fix it, but to wait till we get to fixing it. If you are really impatient you may send us a fix, we rarely turn down PRs
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zinid
Andrew Nenakhov, he is right now ranting in ejabberd@ room 😀
zinid
we don't want to support his precious SCRAM-SHA-256 🙁
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Andrew Nenakhov
Lazy developer asses you are!
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zinid
Andrew Nenakhov, hum, I thought XMPP is all about endless discussions and meetings, no? Should we implement something? I'm confused 🤔
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Andrew Nenakhov
Have you read a post-meritocracy manifesto?
zinid
no
Andrew Nenakhov
These core values and principles are:
We do not believe that our value as human beings is intrinsically tied to our value as knowledge workers. Our professions do not define us; we are more than the work we do.
We believe that interpersonal skills are at least as important as technical skills.
We can add the most value as professionals by drawing on the diversity of our identities, backgrounds, experiences, and perspectives. Homogeneity is an antipattern.
Andrew Nenakhov
https://postmeritocracy.org/
zinid
how does this relate? stop confusing me, plz
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Andrew Nenakhov
I mean, we are doing everything wrong by trying to build something.
Andrew Nenakhov
We must be friendly and open an inclusive
Andrew Nenakhov
And then things will somehow get themselves done
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Andrew Nenakhov
By our welcoming community.
pep.
I think we haven't addressed the elephant in the room that is the language barrier
zinid
Andrew Nenakhov, we also need to attract those pissed minority, they will do the job for us 😀
Andrew Nenakhov
zinid, so now you plan to EXPLOIT offended minorities??! You monster.
zinid
I just suggest the solutions
zinid
and you only criticize me
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Andrew Nenakhov
Ok guys jokes aside, have to go off chat. Need to oversee updates to three xmpp clients and some more projects. Unfortunately so far we don't have any minorities in our team (though gender diversity is pretty high, 40% of our developer team are females!)
pep.
out of?
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Andrew Nenakhov
Currently, there are 5 developers plus one sysamin and me
pep.
Cool :)
Andrew Nenakhov
Also one fringe member who works on designing required protocol extensions
Ge0rG
Andrew Nenakhov: it would be great if you could triage incoming bug requests and say whether you are going to fix them or not, and if yes then on which time frame
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Andrew Nenakhov
Actually we have trouble keeping up with GitHubs tracker. We treat is a public backlog for now, and we rely on internal redmine tracker for real development.
Andrew Nenakhov
Problem with GitHub is that it gets spammed all to quickly with all sorts of request, so it takes a lot of time just to sort it,
Wiktor
Andrew Nenakhov, I agree, I've seen this problem with another project I've been involved with, too much noise
zinid
+1, and if you don't address that spam your bugtracker looks like a pile of 💩
Ge0rG
Just close down the tracker then?
zinid
just cut off the head, yeah
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Andrew Nenakhov
Some day in the future we'll hire a support team and will probably retain issue creation for team only.
Andrew Nenakhov
So to file bug report users will need to email their problem to us and we'll publish only verified issues.
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Andrew Nenakhov
But this may also work bad. So for the time being we're mostly treating GitHub issues like a toxic dump and try to avoid it :(
Ge0rG
Andrew Nenakhov: let me try to find a better phrasing for my point: if you want people to report more issues, you should have a process where reported issues are at least categorized on a somewhat timely scale.
Ge0rG
Andrew Nenakhov: some hours ago, you asked me to report my issues on github.
Andrew Nenakhov
They actually are. I add labels to them!
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Andrew Nenakhov
Xabber for Web GitHub tracker so far had zero issues, so it was less dreadful 😁
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Ge0rG
Andrew Nenakhov: so you only want me to report on github about xabber-web and xabber-ios but not about xabber-android? :D
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Andrew Nenakhov
Also, your bug reports are pointless and wasteful.
Ge0rG
Andrew Nenakhov: okay, so you don't want me to report issues at all?
Andrew Nenakhov
This is an incomplete portion of app, so it just works for us. What is the point reacting on it when we know we'll rebuild everything there?
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Ge0rG
Andrew Nenakhov: so you admit it's just a mockup? 😁
Andrew Nenakhov
Probably yes, Georg, you better not report issues to us. Use some Dino or Gajim or Conversations or even Yaxim.
Andrew Nenakhov
Ge0rG, no, it's a very functional xmpp client that has a couple of incomplete interfaces, both of which are truly trivial.
Ge0rG
Andrew Nenakhov: point taken.
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Andrew Nenakhov
You see, what's the point making beautiful login interface for an app if we suspect there will be some trouble down the road that we might not be able to solve?
Andrew Nenakhov
So we concentrate on hard things first. Trivial things and polish later.
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Guus
Zash a couple of weeks ago you were about to test something in Openfire - there was a breakdown of s2s somewhere halfway in our conversation - were you able to reproduce that issue?
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Guus
initial presence echo, I think was what the issue related to.
Zash
Guus: Hmm, can you provide more hints to help me remember?
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Zash
Ah. I think I found that to be working now.
Guus
\o/
Guus
Thanks
Guus
edhelas - that's one of your issues with Openfire, btw.
Guus
so hopefully, that's gone now.
Zash
Guus: If you want a project for the day, try getting scansion ( MattJs test runner) up and running :)
Guus
Zash I'm actually interested - but it's one of a long list of awesome stuff I want do get done 🙂
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Guus
> Guus: ...having a good easy-to-deploy coroprate setup.
You mentioned that earlier, Ge0rG - that's actually something that Openfire strives to do. Any thoughts/pointers there?
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Zash
Hold on, I'm under the impression that that's already a strong point of Openfire, leave some for us too ;)
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Ge0rG
Guus: I haven't run openfire yet, but having a short introduction article on how to host it with all mobile features enabled, and integrate it with your AD and stay compliant to GDPR, would be great.
Guus
Zash you get _all other_ stuff 🙂
Guus
GDPR is something we haven't touched on
Guus
LDAP (AD?) integration you get out of the box
Guus
'all mobile features' likely means enabling some plugins, that we're planning to ship as a default set in the future.
Ge0rG
Guus [13:48]:
> GDPR is something we haven't touched on
That's a tough sell in the EU
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Guus
Ge0rG - if you think that 'easy corporate setup' fills an important gap in what we have for XMPP, I'd love for you to look at Openfire for that - see if we can improve it more in just that (I think, like Zash suggests, its already pretty well on its way in that direction). I do see value for Openfire to specialize there.
Guus
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
dele
Guus I hope XEP-0357: Push Notifications is in your long list of awesomeness. It will help reduce the battery power drain when using Conversations with Openfire
Guus
dele yes, yes
dele
🙂
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Zash
Got CSI?
Guus
Zash, I have working code that advertises the feature, but as I couldn't find anything that would actually benefit from CSI without breaking spec (mostly the out-of-order restriction, iirc), I've never pushed that.
MattJ
Guus, in theory a significant benefit comes from just witholding unimportant stanzas for $time and sending them together in batches
Zash
Yeah, messing with the ordering is just ... icky.
Zashtypes "xep" and 3 random digits into a search engine and gets https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0286.html
MattJ
If you do more than that you're in dangerous territory, and even doing just that requires some work to get right
Guus
MattJ It's all a bit further away in my memory, but if I recall correctly, I thought that, practically, there wouldn't be to much value to it.
Guus
(I might be very wrong)
Zash
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0286.html#sect-idm45485296239888
> 4.1 Transmit no data
> 4.2 When transmitting, transmit as much as you can
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Zash
That sums up a good strategy.
Zash
Harder to quantify that tho
Guus
Yeah - I was basically wondering if it effectively is worth the added complexity of CSI, in practice. That's why I held off.
MattJ
Guus, look up the study that found the Pandora music streaming client used 90% of its battery consumption on 2% of the traffic (because it downloaded all the track at the start [good], and then sent periodic pings back to the server [bad])
Guus
MattJ but doesn't SM affect that more than CSI?
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flow
I think it is possible that even a trival CSI server implementation just withholding presence stanzas would have an measurable impact on battery life
Zash
Wasn't that part of SM removed?
Guus
flow if that's true, then I sit here corrected.
Guus
my completely uneducated guess was that that's not a meaningful change
Guus
(as there's plenty of traffic that would cause the buffer to flush)
Zash
Plenty of presence can be bunched up in batches
flow
Guus, well it clearly depends on the exact use case. But you could possiblly easly measure the longest idle time for the connection and compare the values with and without CSI
flow
or s/use case/user/
Guus
Yeah, that's a thought.
Guus
Also, I'm not saying that there's absolutely no merit in CSI
Zash
Measuring would be good tho
Guus
but the discussion I had at the time made me re-evaluate the priority of that added to Openfire
Guus
so I kicked that can down the road
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Guus
So, yeah, GDPR, possibly CSI... what more enterprisy stuff is XMPP lacking? (or do you think is lacking because you've not tried our most awesome server)?
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Zash
As a self-hosting proponent I'd prefer to see CSI prioritized over push notifications, since that ties into Google and Apple.
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Guus
_completely_ unrelated: when tailing a logfile, it's easy to put in a marker by hitting enter, which introduces a blank line. Can you do something similar when following in less?
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Guus
Zash, I don't think that there are self-hosted alternatives to clients running on Google and Apple (apart from web clients that don't have particularly good UX on mobile phones)?
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Guus
In other words: adding Push Notifications doesn't hurt self-hosting?
Zash
It doesn't help with mobile OSes killing your app, but it does help with power usage.✎
Zash
CSI doesn't help with mobile OSes killing your app, but it does help with power usage. ✏
Guus
I'm not saying CSI is useless - I just wondered how you compared it against push notifications. Support for either XEP would benefit the exact same clients, I think.
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Wiktor
Guus, CSI doesn't help if your app is killed, push is handled by system and will start your app if it's not running (e.g. killed by aggressive battery optimization).
Guus
Wiktor, that sounds about right
pep.
Android clients should all implement VoIP to get past the push business :P
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Wiktor
Both are useful, it's just their use-case areas do not overlap perfectly :)
Guus
I think I'm confusing people. I didn't want to say either CSI or Push is better or worse than the other. I only didn't understand the argument to prefer Push _as that's better for self-hosting_
Guus
doesn't really matter anyways
Guus
I was just curious
pep.
Conversations has really worked fine for me without any push support (I run the fdroid build)
Zash
But then need for agressive murderous battery savings can be mitigated somewhat by CSI
pep.
Guus, no that's the opposite, **to prefer CSI
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Guus
pep. err, right - but my question remains: I'm not seeing that there's a difference for the _self-hosted_ aspect of things.
pep.
Using push means I am dependent on the developer's Push server
Wiktor
for self-hosting? push is no problem for server operators, rather to client developers (as they need to operate push proxy server). Or maybe I misunderstood what you meant
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pep.
If I decide to self-host that push server, that means I have to rebuild the app, and register that to google(?), provide it in the play store etc.
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Zash
Guus: I don't get no push notifications. So I personally don't directly benefit from push. Mostly it annoys me with implying that XMPP isn't push already.
Guus
Zash ok, sure - if you'd not use it even if the feature was available, then it makes sense to want to have a different feature first 🙂
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Guus
Wiktor no, you did not misunderstand me. That exactly was my confusion.
Wiktor
Okay!
Guus
(and I naively assumed that 'self-hosting' only applied to the XMPP server itself)
Wiktor
Yeah, well, I wouldn't use "self-hosting" to describe running your own push node, just like I wouldn't use it to describe forking a client, but that's just semantics I guess
Zash
No push notifications in my phone OS that I know of either.
Guus
Zash sure, but then you're running something that the vast, vast majority of corporate users isn't running.
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Wiktor
for the record there are alternative push services to google, random example: https://developer.huawei.com/consumer/en/devservice/doc/20102
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Zash
Fun fact: the first implementation of push notifications for prosody was tested against an SMS API
Guus
Which says more about the developer than the intended use case, I think 🙂
Guus
intended/expected
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Zash
:)
Zash
The part that sits in the XMPP server doesn't need to know anything about the push server, so why not
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Seve
MattJ, you mentioned that if XMPP started today, it would not use XML. What do you think would it be, and why?
MattJ
A good question :)
Zash
Probably depends on who started it
MattJ
The thing is, I personally believe XML was, and still is, a great fit for XMPP
pep.
The X in XMPP stands for XML right, there's no way we use something else
MattJ
The reason is that it has namespaces right there
MattJ
Namespaces in most formats tend to end up pretty ugly at the end of the day
Zash
JSON with namespaces and schema isn't really nicer than XML
zinid
this is not a technical question, but marketing
pep.
But why use namespaces when you can have everything included (!! No I'm not trying to revive the discussion :p)
zinid
XML has bad reputation already
Zash
XML got a bad reputation because it was popular and used for things where it wasn't a good fit
zinid
Zash, does it matter why?
Zash
JSON is used for things today where it's not a good fit.
Zash
zinid: Does anything matter?
zinid
Zash, yes, something definitely matters
Guus
fwiw, I've found that standardizing anything on XML is easier than doing the same on JSON.
zinid
but not why XML got "outdated"
MattJ
Everything gets outdated
Guus
and I agree with zinid, XML has a bad reputation - I think that's primarily caused by the fact that it's hard to use for people that use it in a usecase where json is a better fit.
Zash
Bring back ASN.1!
zinid
Zash, yes!111
zinid
let's call it ASN.2
zinid
new exciting thingy
Guus
ASN.2.0 <-- you need the marketing thingy!
Zash
Is binary, has schema, namespaces, all the bells and whistles anyone could want
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Zash
Or well, ASN.1 is ... the schema?
zinid
Zash, I think it's schema + encoding, no?
MattJ
Seve, none of this answers your question. The answer is probably "HTTP+JSON" and because that's what people use for everything today...
zinid
MattJ, yeah, but HTTP+JSON is a very rigid construction, it doesn't fit everything
Guus
I would call JSON many things, but not 'rigid'. 🙂
MattJ
zinid, it's k->v pairs + arrays, it does fit everything :)
MattJ
Maybe not optimally, but it can be done
MattJ
Note that I'm not saying it would be a good idea
Zash
MattJ: Did you see the thing I played with this morning? It failed sometimes because of the order of keys in JSON objects.
MattJ
Fun
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zinid
well, they invented CBOR, which has 1:1 mapping with JSON, why?
Zash
CBOR is nice
zinid
btw, CBOR is even more compact than ASN.1
Zash
zinid: That doesn't make sense
zinid
Zash, what exactly?
Seve
MattJ, I didn't say anything because I'm interested on the topic and wanted to know what people say. I was just wondering when you mentioned that, if you had some other solution for it that could replace XML today for XMPP or if you had in mind the popularity JSON has these days. Very appreciated :)
MattJ
Seve, no, I have no better solution in mind
Zash
zinid: Is CBOR more compact than PER or the one I forget the name of that's ültra-compact bit packing?
zinid
Zash, I think there is comparison with DER in RFC 7049
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Zash
I wrote a CBOR lib, so I think CBOR is nice. It can fit Lua tables natively, as opposed to JSON.
zinid
ah, BER!!!
zinid
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7049#appendix-E
Zash
CBOR is pretty compact for something that is self-describing
Zash
BER & co is also self-describing
zinid
> 3. no schema description needed
That's a moot advantage of CBOR, tbh
Zash
But I imagine schema-aware magic like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packed_Encoding_Rules#Packed_Encoding_Rules can be more compact
zinid
Zash, indeed, I think PER is more compact than BER
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Zash
But then you you lose the self-describingness and need the schema to decode
zinid
schemas are awesome
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zinid
ejabberd internally uses schemas only, no XML parsing
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Wiktor
Yep, CBOR is nice, every time I see base64 used nowadays I cry a little as this is just a workaround for the inability to directly store binary...
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zinid
I still think ASN.1 is the best! Except maybe Cobol'ish syntax, but I can live with that
Zash
Can haz CBOR encoding rules
zinid
Zash, ah, true
pep.
zinid, what kind of schemas do you use in ejabberd exactly?
zinid
pep., hand-made
pep.
I mean, what schemas, what tech, XML schemas?
pep.
schemas doing what
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zinid
pep., no, erlang'ish, https://github.com/processone/xmpp/blob/master/specs/xmpp_codec.spec
zinid
pep., the schema tells the codec how to decode/encode XML into internal Erlang structures
zinid
so basically same stuff as ASN.1
pep.
interesting
pep.
That also builds parsers etc.?
zinid
really? Link Mauve is working on the same for Rust, I thought it's already well recognized approach
zinid
pep., yes
Wiktor
for the record stanza.io does something similar: https://github.com/legastero/stanza.io/blob/master/src/protocol/stanzas/bookmarks.js#L6-L28
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pep.
zinid, yes, and I'm also working on it, but we have an XML parser in there
pep.
Well, we expect parsed structures already, we don't handle raw strings
zinid
pep., well, yes, an XML parser translates into internal XML Erlang representation, then the codec converts the representation into valid Erlang records (kinda structures in C)
pep.
Ok. I was confused for a sec
zinid
so it has two passes, which is of course not very efficient
pep.
But you gain a lot more with that anyway. And it's already way more efficient than doing the same in python, hands down..
zinid
pep., <message/> -> #xml{} -> #message{}
pep.
Okay
zinid
think of #foo{} as a C structure
Wiktor
too bad this can't be derived automatically from schema in xeps :)
pep.
Wiktor, indeed
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pep.
zinid, yeah I get it
zinid
yes, so stanza.io guys, myself and Link Mauve are reinventing it from scratch
pep.
We do the same in xmpp-parsers anyway
zinid
what surprized me, is that ejabberd became faster with such approach
Zash
Wiktor: Was this because of the schemas being incomplete or XML schema itself not being capable of expressing things sufficiently?
Link Mauve
Completely unsurprised. ^^
pep.
Zash, both? I guess, mostly the latter
Wiktor
I remember schemas being incomplete when I tried parsing XSD -> TypeScript using a library (just a PoC), then there were issues with the library not supporting all constructs of XSD correctly
zinid
Link Mauve, maybe for you 🙂 but I had doubts back then, I was thinking about slowing a bit
zinid
the problem with XML schemas is that you cannot build structures for your language from them
zinid
at least I don't know how to do that
Wiktor
Zash, e.g. https://github.com/spreeuwers/xsd2ts/issues/1
zinid
I'm not proud of inventing my own schema at all
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Link Mauve
Yeah, me neither.
Link Mauve
But it was mandatory given xsd doesn’t help with internal structs.
Wiktor
well you can build structures but you need to write the xsd -> target language translator first, and that wouldn't be a weekend project, probably with a lot of bugs etc.
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zinid
Wiktor, yeah
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Wiktor
and then write that translator for every Nth language... etc. so making a small DSL now is less work it seems
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Ge0rG
Aww, now I missed all the ordered JSON and DER discussion, so it's too late to come up with Canonical JSON <https://matrix.org/docs/spec/appendices.html#canonical-json>