HolgerI know I'm late to the party but I don't agree arguing vs. Matrix is bad and counter-productive. As a user I may well be interested in the pros and cons as seen by those involved in the protocols.
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zinidHolger: 👍
ZashKnow thy bias
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HolgerIt's quite common that participants in discussions are biased :-)
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zinidI also don't understand this: several XMPP folks walk around and try to convince some communities to install XMPP instead of Matrix (KDE is such an example, I think Seve tried to convince them, I also recall that Licaon_Kter were trying the same in another community). So, if we don't "fight", let's just give up and let them installing Matrix? So those XMPP folks are just wasting time?
Ge0rGHolger: I think it's all about being polite and open to feedback and insights from the other side.
Ge0rGAlso I'm ashamed about how some of "us" are bashing "them" on every possible occasion
zinidyeah, people are obsessed with politeness
zinidfacts don't matter anymore even in high-tech community, you just need to be polite
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Ge0rGzinid: facts don't matter as long as you are impolite, in any community, since ever. Except when you are the dictator and can just ignore people's feelings.
zinidhow does the fact relates to politeness?
zinidthe earth is not flat, whatever you like it to be
HolgerGe0rG: That's just not true. Different people, different tone, in any community, since ever. I feel it's a more recent-ish fashion to discuss tone all day, but you won't change it no matter how much energy you put into such meta discussions.
zinidI also find it strange to focus on the tone endlessly
GuusWe focus on tone as yours is actively scaring people away. I understand that you don't consider your tone to be offensive. However, it is to a lot of people that do not share your background. This is how you can do damage to the community as a whole, even when your intentions are nobel. When discussing in a group of people with mixed backgrounds, it is best to err on the side of caution.
zinidyou see, again this 😀
GuusYes, and I will, as long as I feel that you are hurting the community.
Ge0rGGuus: thanks, that's exactly what I wanted to say, but lacked the right words for
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zinidGuus, who is the community?
zinidthis room?
GuusA mix of people of varied backgrounds.
zinidyeah, very precise definition
Ge0rG"the people who want to make XMPP more successful" would be a better one.
HolgerSo this was just all about tone. I'm sorry I stirred this up.
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zinidGuus, btw, did you think that Matrix did more harm to our community by attracting them to Matrix?
Ge0rGzinid: Matrix didn't do harm to our community. We did that harm by not providing the same perceived quality as Matrix.
zinidwe...
Ge0rG(part of that is also yelling at our users)
GuusI think XMPP was very complacent before Matrix. Now that they're around, we are more motivated to get things up to spec.
zinidGe0rG, I never heard that someone switched to Matrix because XMPP community is agressive
pep.Guus, you mean forced? :P
Guuszinid, I've had various talks with people that think XMPP people are acting like dicks.
zinidGuus, and I didn't
zinidI mean I never heard that
Guuszinid, I have been trying to tell you over and over and over.
Ge0rGzinid: maybe because you've got a reputation?
HolgerGuus: "Now that they're around, we are more motivated to get things up to spec." Really? I argued against someone making that statement just this morning. You feel XEP or software development is pushed by the competition from Matrix?
zinidGe0rG, so it's "you" but "we"?
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zinidGe0rG, so it's "me" who hurt the community, but hypothetical "we" when you want to describe your failure?
GuusHolger I didn't see that disccussion (was it here), but I do think that it, for instance, Matrix has shown what the effect is of XMPP clients generally offering bad UX/UI.
ZashI sure don't feel like we're chasing Matrix. I just wanna sit in my corner and make things better.
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GuusHolger I didn't see that disccussion (was it here?), but I do think that it, for instance, Matrix has shown what the effect is of XMPP clients generally offering bad UX/UI.
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zinidnote that I'm silent at all outside of these few rooms, I don't see how I can hurt the community
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Ge0rGzinid: you have a very aggressive tone on HN, and in discussions here and in the other MUCs
HolgerGuus: Not sure we needed Matrix to show that, even less sure we improved anything due to Matrix :-)
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zinidGe0rG, I have 3 posts at HN, and I'm joined 3 rooms (one of them is ejabberd and I don't hurt anyone there at all)
GuusHolger: we _knew_ it, but we didn't act on it. "since matrix", I've been trying harder to improve things.
Andrew NenakhovFirst, matrix official client riot is quite a piece of something not very good. Slow, blinking and often crashing.
Guusso maybe it's just me 🙂
zinidGe0rG, so I ruined everything by 3 posts?
Guus(but I think it's more than just me)
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Andrew NenakhovSo I don't know about what perceived quality you are talking
ZashSkype was a terrible client too. Yet percieved as better than XMPP.
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Andrew NenakhovSecond, on zinid's tone. I think he did (and does) more for xmpp than most. Ejabberd is great server.
ZashSomething something marketing
ZashAnd network effect
SeveThing is, you are not looking with your average user eyes
zinidGuus, indeed, maybe it's just you? Maybe it's something not related to the tone?
HolgerAndrew Nenakhov: 👍
Ge0rGAndrew Nenakhov: doing good things for the community isn't a permit to behave like an asshole, though.
Guusbut, it's not just UX: it also follows things like funding, marketing, getting your foot behind the door of larger organizations - there's much that we can learn from them.
Ge0rGGuus: ...having a good easy-to-deploy coroprate setup.
Guus(Note that there's much that they can learn from us too - but more interested in learning from them 🙂 )
HolgerGe0rG: Awesome tone of yours.
zinidGe0rG, maybe then the XSF will remove those pages where they describe XMPP usages because of my tone? The majority of use cases are ejabberd
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ZashSeve: Yeah, I don't have the same requirements or preferences as your average user. Often the excat inverse actually :)
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zinidGe0rG, and maybe the XSF will put the usages created by people from the XMPP "community"?
Ge0rGzinid: what's your point, again?
zinidGe0rG, my point is that you need to be consistent
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zinidat one hand I'm hurting the community, at another hand you use my product to promote XMPP
Ge0rGzinid: I am. I appreciate you doing good development work for the community, while disliking your tone in public discussions.
GuusI need to go -- be back in about an hour
Ge0rGzinid: I'm interested in your professsional opinion on protocol matters, and that even includes ranting about XEP ugliness.
zinidGe0rG, me too, but your tone is not that great at all
zinidso it's not you who should tell me about the tone
pep."Andrew Nenakhov> Second, on zinid's tone. I think he did (and does) more for xmpp than most. Ejabberd is great server.", This is just like saying "My husband beats me but he also buys me everything I want he's a great husband", (sorry zinid I didn't have any other comparison in mind :p)
Ge0rGzinid: I'm guilty of a good share of ranting myself, yeah. But I try to rant about things I know about, like XMPP, in the respective community, including this place.
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Andrew NenakhovI remember recently we shared an alpha build to our upcoming grrreat xmpp client for iOS, and certain member of community started concentrating on incomplete add contact screen imstead of marvelling at consistent work with message archive, beautiful chat interface, beautiful vcards, capabilities to send files and media...
Ge0rGzinid: and I also tend to adapt my tone to the "incoming" tone, which is not the best of practices.
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Andrew NenakhovCalling it a 'mockup' of an app. 😐
Ge0rGAndrew Nenakhov: you can call me out.
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ZashLinus parallells?
WiktorRiot is ugly and slow indeed, but it's still more usable than anything I've seen on desktop for average user (read: looks like normal messaging app). I didn't check stuff recently though.
Ge0rGAndrew Nenakhov: I tried to login with Xabber/iOS, it went from "Authenticating" to "Offline" immediately, with no error message. I wasn't able to add contacts, nor to send or receive messages. What other conclusion should I make than that it's a mockup?
zinidpep., I don't find the comparison correct, but okay 😛
Andrew NenakhovYou had to try harder, I guess. It does not go offline for us with our server
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SeveI think you guys are mixing topics :)
zinidSeve, that happens all the time when you start discussing "tone" 😀
Ge0rGAndrew Nenakhov: I entered the wrong JID, but it didn't tell me that.
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Ge0rGAndrew Nenakhov: on the other hand, I was just using your own words, which you used to describe another iOS client, that actually works in my experience... so there is _really_ no need to feel offended ;)
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Andrew NenakhovI'm not the one here preaching politeness and ethics.
Ge0rG> and I also tend to adapt my tone to the "incoming" tone, which is not the best of practices.
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Andrew NenakhovI'm actually ok with criticism. Especially when it is aimed at released products
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Ge0rGAndrew Nenakhov: so you didn't release the beta to obtain feedback, but ...?
zinidGe0rG, we also don't release betas btw
Andrew NenakhovWe have access to builds cause people were asking
zinidnobody use betas
Andrew Nenakhov*We gave
zinidXMPP software has too small user base for betas
Andrew NenakhovAnd we are open to a constructive feedback and bug reports. Stress on constructive.
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Ge0rGAndrew Nenakhov: what about this?
> I tried to login with Xabber/iOS, it went from "Authenticating" to "Offline" immediately, with no error message. I wasn't able to add contacts, nor to send or receive messages.
Andrew NenakhovLike, filed issues on GitHub. "I can't connect to xabber.org server, app immediately goes offline".
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Ge0rGIssues: 0
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Ge0rGAndrew Nenakhov: is https://github.com/redsolution/xabber-ios/issues the right place?
Andrew NenakhovThat's not a constructive feedback but whining on a muc channel that I rarely visit in my spare time.
Andrew NenakhovYes, that's the place
zinidAndrew Nenakhov, Ge0rG is too proud to create issues, he only can make such advices, double standards, that is
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ZashGe0rG doesn't report issues?
WiktorI just tested Xabber Web, works and looks really nice, this is not open-source though? (thinking about self-hosting and adding support for HTTP Upload)
ZashSo those 61 issues in our issue tracker is an illusion then? :)
zinidZash, yeah, he only creates issues in "right" software projects
ziniddouble standards again
Andrew NenakhovWiktor, it's agpl and not only it does support sending files, but probably does it im a very advanced way
pep.Why do you have to use superlatives all the time :x
HolgerWiktor: The problem is no MUC support.
WiktorAndrew Nenakhov, oh, I didn't spot the link to source, I found that xabber accounts have file upload but my own that supports http upload :0 didn't work
WiktorHolger, oh, I didn't go as far as that in my tests, thanks for input
Wiktorfor the record here's the source: https://github.com/redsolution/xabber-web
HolgerWiktor: They do a custom MUC replacement.
Wiktorah, yep, now I recalled that, got it
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Zashpep.: superlatives is the key to the reality distortion field, don't you know?
Ge0rGzinid: https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/issues?utf8=✓&q=is%3Aissue+author%3Age0rg is not as impressive as with other projects, but I'm not even a user of ejabberd.
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zinidGe0rG, I'm aware of those, yes
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Ge0rGzinid: I'm with Guus here. Please tone down.
zinidGe0rG, my tone is fine, please back off
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Ge0rGzinid: "Ge0rG is too proud to create issues, he only can make such advices, double standards, that is"
Ge0rGzinid: oh, wait. I didn't see the </s>
ZashIs this going to end with a CoC?
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Ge0rGZash: only if it's St. Benedicts.
zinidnah, they don't need CoC to ban XMPP developers 😉
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Ge0rGAndrew Nenakhov: also in the past, I've had some questionable experience with reporting issues to xabber-* projects. https://github.com/redsolution/xabber-android/issues/839 is the less controversial one.
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MattJAndrew Nenakhov, what XMPP servers don't support MAM pagination?
pep.Even our own community members are spreading FUD, yay
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Andrew Nenakhov> Why do you have to use superlatives all the time :x
How many clients you know that can send several images at once and present a niiice gallery to view them? Or send voice messages?
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Andrew NenakhovGe0rG, if you are that bothered by our vCard handling you can send us a pull request.
Ge0rGAndrew Nenakhov: is that your answer to all my issues?
Ge0rGAndrew Nenakhov: I will be glad to send you pull requests for everything you ask me to, you just need to pay my employer our standard consulting fee.
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Andrew NenakhovMattJ, you are out of context about pagination. Guy was asking why we load many messages - but we load only 1 (one) message from every conversation.
Andrew NenakhovAnd there is no way to load all recent conversations but by polling all contacts I roster
Andrew NenakhovAnd since answers on Google play are limited to just 350characters there is no much space for details
Andrew NenakhovBecause per our customer service policy we also have to insult jerky entitled commenters
zinid😀
pep.First the "You know nothing!" is nice, and then I understood it exactly as MattJ did. It's really badly explained in that answer. "XMPP servers DO NOT support pagination" can mean quite a few things
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Alexmemberbot is online and will accept your votes for the Q1-2019 membership applications
WiktorYou know nothing, Jon Snow. :)
Andrew NenakhovGe0rG, oh so we have to fix your problems with our app for free then, but you are willing to change us your standard consulting fee, uh oh
pep.Alex, thanks!
intosiThanks Alex.
Andrew Nenakhovpep., Yes, technically you are right. We should have been more technically precise
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Ge0rGAndrew Nenakhov: I report problems with your app for free, and I expect that you at least fix protocol violations.
Ge0rGAndrew Nenakhov: you are paying your developers to write the app, so why shouldn't I expect you to pay me to fix your code, if you want me to do it for you? :P
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Andrew NenakhovThere was a guy somewhere here who was running around GitHub and spamming all the projects with nonsense issues like compatibility suite. I think he was thinking that he was doing a great community service.
pep.A voté !
Andrew NenakhovJust saying.
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Andrew NenakhovGe0rG, if you are having a problem with our code, I don't expect you to fix it, but to wait till we get to fixing it. If you are really impatient you may send us a fix, we rarely turn down PRs
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zinidAndrew Nenakhov, he is right now ranting in ejabberd@ room 😀
zinidwe don't want to support his precious SCRAM-SHA-256 🙁
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Andrew NenakhovLazy developer asses you are!
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zinidAndrew Nenakhov, hum, I thought XMPP is all about endless discussions and meetings, no? Should we implement something? I'm confused 🤔
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Andrew NenakhovHave you read a post-meritocracy manifesto?
zinidno
Andrew NenakhovThese core values and principles are:
We do not believe that our value as human beings is intrinsically tied to our value as knowledge workers. Our professions do not define us; we are more than the work we do.
We believe that interpersonal skills are at least as important as technical skills.
We can add the most value as professionals by drawing on the diversity of our identities, backgrounds, experiences, and perspectives. Homogeneity is an antipattern.
Andrew Nenakhovhttps://postmeritocracy.org/
zinidhow does this relate? stop confusing me, plz
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Andrew NenakhovI mean, we are doing everything wrong by trying to build something.
Andrew NenakhovWe must be friendly and open an inclusive
Andrew NenakhovAnd then things will somehow get themselves done
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Andrew NenakhovBy our welcoming community.
pep.I think we haven't addressed the elephant in the room that is the language barrier
zinidAndrew Nenakhov, we also need to attract those pissed minority, they will do the job for us 😀
Andrew Nenakhovzinid, so now you plan to EXPLOIT offended minorities??! You monster.
zinidI just suggest the solutions
zinidand you only criticize me
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Andrew NenakhovOk guys jokes aside, have to go off chat. Need to oversee updates to three xmpp clients and some more projects. Unfortunately so far we don't have any minorities in our team (though gender diversity is pretty high, 40% of our developer team are females!)
pep.out of?
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Andrew NenakhovCurrently, there are 5 developers plus one sysamin and me
pep.Cool :)
Andrew NenakhovAlso one fringe member who works on designing required protocol extensions
Ge0rGAndrew Nenakhov: it would be great if you could triage incoming bug requests and say whether you are going to fix them or not, and if yes then on which time frame
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Andrew NenakhovActually we have trouble keeping up with GitHubs tracker. We treat is a public backlog for now, and we rely on internal redmine tracker for real development.
Andrew NenakhovProblem with GitHub is that it gets spammed all to quickly with all sorts of request, so it takes a lot of time just to sort it,
WiktorAndrew Nenakhov, I agree, I've seen this problem with another project I've been involved with, too much noise
zinid+1, and if you don't address that spam your bugtracker looks like a pile of 💩
Ge0rGJust close down the tracker then?
zinidjust cut off the head, yeah
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Andrew NenakhovSome day in the future we'll hire a support team and will probably retain issue creation for team only.
Andrew NenakhovSo to file bug report users will need to email their problem to us and we'll publish only verified issues.
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Andrew NenakhovBut this may also work bad. So for the time being we're mostly treating GitHub issues like a toxic dump and try to avoid it :(
Ge0rGAndrew Nenakhov: let me try to find a better phrasing for my point: if you want people to report more issues, you should have a process where reported issues are at least categorized on a somewhat timely scale.
Ge0rGAndrew Nenakhov: some hours ago, you asked me to report my issues on github.
Andrew NenakhovThey actually are. I add labels to them!
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Andrew NenakhovXabber for Web GitHub tracker so far had zero issues, so it was less dreadful 😁
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Ge0rGAndrew Nenakhov: so you only want me to report on github about xabber-web and xabber-ios but not about xabber-android? :D
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Andrew NenakhovAlso, your bug reports are pointless and wasteful.
Ge0rGAndrew Nenakhov: okay, so you don't want me to report issues at all?
Andrew NenakhovThis is an incomplete portion of app, so it just works for us. What is the point reacting on it when we know we'll rebuild everything there?
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Ge0rGAndrew Nenakhov: so you admit it's just a mockup? 😁
Andrew NenakhovProbably yes, Georg, you better not report issues to us. Use some Dino or Gajim or Conversations or even Yaxim.
Andrew NenakhovGe0rG, no, it's a very functional xmpp client that has a couple of incomplete interfaces, both of which are truly trivial.
Ge0rGAndrew Nenakhov: point taken.
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Andrew NenakhovYou see, what's the point making beautiful login interface for an app if we suspect there will be some trouble down the road that we might not be able to solve?
Andrew NenakhovSo we concentrate on hard things first. Trivial things and polish later.
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GuusZash a couple of weeks ago you were about to test something in Openfire - there was a breakdown of s2s somewhere halfway in our conversation - were you able to reproduce that issue?
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Guusinitial presence echo, I think was what the issue related to.
ZashGuus: Hmm, can you provide more hints to help me remember?
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ZashAh. I think I found that to be working now.
Guus\o/
GuusThanks
Guusedhelas - that's one of your issues with Openfire, btw.
Guusso hopefully, that's gone now.
ZashGuus: If you want a project for the day, try getting scansion ( MattJs test runner) up and running :)
GuusZash I'm actually interested - but it's one of a long list of awesome stuff I want do get done 🙂
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Guus> Guus: ...having a good easy-to-deploy coroprate setup.
You mentioned that earlier, Ge0rG - that's actually something that Openfire strives to do. Any thoughts/pointers there?
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ZashHold on, I'm under the impression that that's already a strong point of Openfire, leave some for us too ;)
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Ge0rGGuus: I haven't run openfire yet, but having a short introduction article on how to host it with all mobile features enabled, and integrate it with your AD and stay compliant to GDPR, would be great.
GuusZash you get _all other_ stuff 🙂
GuusGDPR is something we haven't touched on
GuusLDAP (AD?) integration you get out of the box
Guus'all mobile features' likely means enabling some plugins, that we're planning to ship as a default set in the future.
Ge0rGGuus [13:48]:
> GDPR is something we haven't touched on
That's a tough sell in the EU
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GuusGe0rG - if you think that 'easy corporate setup' fills an important gap in what we have for XMPP, I'd love for you to look at Openfire for that - see if we can improve it more in just that (I think, like Zash suggests, its already pretty well on its way in that direction). I do see value for Openfire to specialize there.
GuusYeah, you're absolutely right.
deleGuus I hope XEP-0357: Push Notifications is in your long list of awesomeness. It will help reduce the battery power drain when using Conversations with Openfire
Guusdele yes, yes
dele🙂
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ZashGot CSI?
GuusZash, I have working code that advertises the feature, but as I couldn't find anything that would actually benefit from CSI without breaking spec (mostly the out-of-order restriction, iirc), I've never pushed that.
MattJGuus, in theory a significant benefit comes from just witholding unimportant stanzas for $time and sending them together in batches
ZashYeah, messing with the ordering is just ... icky.
Zashtypes "xep" and 3 random digits into a search engine and gets https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0286.html
MattJIf you do more than that you're in dangerous territory, and even doing just that requires some work to get right
GuusMattJ It's all a bit further away in my memory, but if I recall correctly, I thought that, practically, there wouldn't be to much value to it.
Guus(I might be very wrong)
Zashhttps://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0286.html#sect-idm45485296239888
> 4.1 Transmit no data
> 4.2 When transmitting, transmit as much as you can
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ZashThat sums up a good strategy.
ZashHarder to quantify that tho
GuusYeah - I was basically wondering if it effectively is worth the added complexity of CSI, in practice. That's why I held off.
MattJGuus, look up the study that found the Pandora music streaming client used 90% of its battery consumption on 2% of the traffic (because it downloaded all the track at the start [good], and then sent periodic pings back to the server [bad])
GuusMattJ but doesn't SM affect that more than CSI?
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flowI think it is possible that even a trival CSI server implementation just withholding presence stanzas would have an measurable impact on battery life
ZashWasn't that part of SM removed?
Guusflow if that's true, then I sit here corrected.
Guusmy completely uneducated guess was that that's not a meaningful change
Guus(as there's plenty of traffic that would cause the buffer to flush)
ZashPlenty of presence can be bunched up in batches
flowGuus, well it clearly depends on the exact use case. But you could possiblly easly measure the longest idle time for the connection and compare the values with and without CSI
flowor s/use case/user/
GuusYeah, that's a thought.
GuusAlso, I'm not saying that there's absolutely no merit in CSI
ZashMeasuring would be good tho
Guusbut the discussion I had at the time made me re-evaluate the priority of that added to Openfire
Guusso I kicked that can down the road
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GuusSo, yeah, GDPR, possibly CSI... what more enterprisy stuff is XMPP lacking? (or do you think is lacking because you've not tried our most awesome server)?
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ZashAs a self-hosting proponent I'd prefer to see CSI prioritized over push notifications, since that ties into Google and Apple.
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Guus_completely_ unrelated: when tailing a logfile, it's easy to put in a marker by hitting enter, which introduces a blank line. Can you do something similar when following in less?
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GuusZash, I don't think that there are self-hosted alternatives to clients running on Google and Apple (apart from web clients that don't have particularly good UX on mobile phones)?
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GuusIn other words: adding Push Notifications doesn't hurt self-hosting?
ZashIt doesn't help with mobile OSes killing your app, but it does help with power usage.
ZashCSI doesn't help with mobile OSes killing your app, but it does help with power usage.
GuusI'm not saying CSI is useless - I just wondered how you compared it against push notifications. Support for either XEP would benefit the exact same clients, I think.
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WiktorGuus, CSI doesn't help if your app is killed, push is handled by system and will start your app if it's not running (e.g. killed by aggressive battery optimization).
GuusWiktor, that sounds about right
pep.Android clients should all implement VoIP to get past the push business :P
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WiktorBoth are useful, it's just their use-case areas do not overlap perfectly :)
GuusI think I'm confusing people. I didn't want to say either CSI or Push is better or worse than the other. I only didn't understand the argument to prefer Push _as that's better for self-hosting_
Guusdoesn't really matter anyways
GuusI was just curious
pep.Conversations has really worked fine for me without any push support (I run the fdroid build)
ZashBut then need for agressive murderous battery savings can be mitigated somewhat by CSI
pep.Guus, no that's the opposite, **to prefer CSI
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Guuspep. err, right - but my question remains: I'm not seeing that there's a difference for the _self-hosted_ aspect of things.
pep.Using push means I am dependent on the developer's Push server
Wiktorfor self-hosting? push is no problem for server operators, rather to client developers (as they need to operate push proxy server). Or maybe I misunderstood what you meant
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pep.If I decide to self-host that push server, that means I have to rebuild the app, and register that to google(?), provide it in the play store etc.
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ZashGuus: I don't get no push notifications. So I personally don't directly benefit from push. Mostly it annoys me with implying that XMPP isn't push already.
GuusZash ok, sure - if you'd not use it even if the feature was available, then it makes sense to want to have a different feature first 🙂
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GuusWiktor no, you did not misunderstand me. That exactly was my confusion.
WiktorOkay!
Guus(and I naively assumed that 'self-hosting' only applied to the XMPP server itself)
WiktorYeah, well, I wouldn't use "self-hosting" to describe running your own push node, just like I wouldn't use it to describe forking a client, but that's just semantics I guess
ZashNo push notifications in my phone OS that I know of either.
GuusZash sure, but then you're running something that the vast, vast majority of corporate users isn't running.
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Wiktorfor the record there are alternative push services to google, random example: https://developer.huawei.com/consumer/en/devservice/doc/20102
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ZashFun fact: the first implementation of push notifications for prosody was tested against an SMS API
GuusWhich says more about the developer than the intended use case, I think 🙂
Guusintended/expected
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Zash:)
ZashThe part that sits in the XMPP server doesn't need to know anything about the push server, so why not
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SeveMattJ, you mentioned that if XMPP started today, it would not use XML. What do you think would it be, and why?
MattJA good question :)
ZashProbably depends on who started it
MattJThe thing is, I personally believe XML was, and still is, a great fit for XMPP
pep.The X in XMPP stands for XML right, there's no way we use something else
MattJThe reason is that it has namespaces right there
MattJNamespaces in most formats tend to end up pretty ugly at the end of the day
ZashJSON with namespaces and schema isn't really nicer than XML
zinidthis is not a technical question, but marketing
pep.But why use namespaces when you can have everything included (!! No I'm not trying to revive the discussion :p)
zinidXML has bad reputation already
ZashXML got a bad reputation because it was popular and used for things where it wasn't a good fit
zinidZash, does it matter why?
ZashJSON is used for things today where it's not a good fit.
Zashzinid: Does anything matter?
zinidZash, yes, something definitely matters
Guusfwiw, I've found that standardizing anything on XML is easier than doing the same on JSON.
zinidbut not why XML got "outdated"
MattJEverything gets outdated
Guusand I agree with zinid, XML has a bad reputation - I think that's primarily caused by the fact that it's hard to use for people that use it in a usecase where json is a better fit.
ZashBring back ASN.1!
zinidZash, yes!111
zinidlet's call it ASN.2
zinidnew exciting thingy
GuusASN.2.0 <-- you need the marketing thingy!
ZashIs binary, has schema, namespaces, all the bells and whistles anyone could want
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ZashOr well, ASN.1 is ... the schema?
zinidZash, I think it's schema + encoding, no?
MattJSeve, none of this answers your question. The answer is probably "HTTP+JSON" and because that's what people use for everything today...
zinidMattJ, yeah, but HTTP+JSON is a very rigid construction, it doesn't fit everything
GuusI would call JSON many things, but not 'rigid'. 🙂
MattJzinid, it's k->v pairs + arrays, it does fit everything :)
MattJMaybe not optimally, but it can be done
MattJNote that I'm not saying it would be a good idea
ZashMattJ: Did you see the thing I played with this morning? It failed sometimes because of the order of keys in JSON objects.
MattJFun
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zinidwell, they invented CBOR, which has 1:1 mapping with JSON, why?
ZashCBOR is nice
zinidbtw, CBOR is even more compact than ASN.1
Zashzinid: That doesn't make sense
zinidZash, what exactly?
SeveMattJ, I didn't say anything because I'm interested on the topic and wanted to know what people say. I was just wondering when you mentioned that, if you had some other solution for it that could replace XML today for XMPP or if you had in mind the popularity JSON has these days. Very appreciated :)
MattJSeve, no, I have no better solution in mind
Zashzinid: Is CBOR more compact than PER or the one I forget the name of that's ültra-compact bit packing?
zinidZash, I think there is comparison with DER in RFC 7049
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ZashI wrote a CBOR lib, so I think CBOR is nice. It can fit Lua tables natively, as opposed to JSON.
ZashCBOR is pretty compact for something that is self-describing
ZashBER & co is also self-describing
zinid> 3. no schema description needed
That's a moot advantage of CBOR, tbh
ZashBut I imagine schema-aware magic like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packed_Encoding_Rules#Packed_Encoding_Rules can be more compact
zinidZash, indeed, I think PER is more compact than BER
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ZashBut then you you lose the self-describingness and need the schema to decode
zinidschemas are awesome
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zinidejabberd internally uses schemas only, no XML parsing
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WiktorYep, CBOR is nice, every time I see base64 used nowadays I cry a little as this is just a workaround for the inability to directly store binary...
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zinidI still think ASN.1 is the best! Except maybe Cobol'ish syntax, but I can live with that
ZashCan haz CBOR encoding rules
zinidZash, ah, true
pep.zinid, what kind of schemas do you use in ejabberd exactly?
zinidpep., hand-made
pep.I mean, what schemas, what tech, XML schemas?
pep.schemas doing what
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zinidpep., no, erlang'ish, https://github.com/processone/xmpp/blob/master/specs/xmpp_codec.spec
zinidpep., the schema tells the codec how to decode/encode XML into internal Erlang structures
zinidso basically same stuff as ASN.1
pep.interesting
pep.That also builds parsers etc.?
zinidreally? Link Mauve is working on the same for Rust, I thought it's already well recognized approach
zinidpep., yes
Wiktorfor the record stanza.io does something similar: https://github.com/legastero/stanza.io/blob/master/src/protocol/stanzas/bookmarks.js#L6-L28
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pep.zinid, yes, and I'm also working on it, but we have an XML parser in there
pep.Well, we expect parsed structures already, we don't handle raw strings
zinidpep., well, yes, an XML parser translates into internal XML Erlang representation, then the codec converts the representation into valid Erlang records (kinda structures in C)
pep.Ok. I was confused for a sec
zinidso it has two passes, which is of course not very efficient
pep.But you gain a lot more with that anyway. And it's already way more efficient than doing the same in python, hands down..
zinidpep., <message/> -> #xml{} -> #message{}
pep.Okay
zinidthink of #foo{} as a C structure
Wiktortoo bad this can't be derived automatically from schema in xeps :)
pep.Wiktor, indeed
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pep.zinid, yeah I get it
zinidyes, so stanza.io guys, myself and Link Mauve are reinventing it from scratch
pep.We do the same in xmpp-parsers anyway
zinidwhat surprized me, is that ejabberd became faster with such approach
ZashWiktor: Was this because of the schemas being incomplete or XML schema itself not being capable of expressing things sufficiently?
Link MauveCompletely unsurprised. ^^
pep.Zash, both? I guess, mostly the latter
WiktorI remember schemas being incomplete when I tried parsing XSD -> TypeScript using a library (just a PoC), then there were issues with the library not supporting all constructs of XSD correctly
zinidLink Mauve, maybe for you 🙂 but I had doubts back then, I was thinking about slowing a bit
zinidthe problem with XML schemas is that you cannot build structures for your language from them
zinidat least I don't know how to do that
WiktorZash, e.g. https://github.com/spreeuwers/xsd2ts/issues/1
zinidI'm not proud of inventing my own schema at all
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Link MauveYeah, me neither.
Link MauveBut it was mandatory given xsd doesn’t help with internal structs.
Wiktorwell you can build structures but you need to write the xsd -> target language translator first, and that wouldn't be a weekend project, probably with a lot of bugs etc.
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zinidWiktor, yeah
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Wiktorand then write that translator for every Nth language... etc. so making a small DSL now is less work it seems
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Ge0rGAww, now I missed all the ordered JSON and DER discussion, so it's too late to come up with Canonical JSON <https://matrix.org/docs/spec/appendices.html#canonical-json>
XSF Discussion - 2019-02-25