XSF Discussion - 2019-03-04

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  296. Andrew Nenakhov Is there any reason to choose license different from GNU LGPL for an open source iOS library with .ogg support?
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  302. tux embedded systems that use static linking?
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  305. Andrew Nenakhov Well, has anyone heard of embedded iOS devices?
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  309. Andrew Nenakhov Also. Are there any reasons to use xep 184 delivery receipts, or xep-333 chat markers can do everything 184 can plus some more. ?
  310. flow Andrew Nenakhov, xep184 is possibly more widely supported
  311. flow and i've heard that xep333 is going to change (but I am hearing that for a while now without anything happen)
  312. Zash Is there a reason to use 333 when 184 and 85 does most of it?
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  316. Andrew Nenakhov It does not.
  317. Andrew Nenakhov Xep 085 has very different purpose
  318. Andrew Nenakhov And 184 does not indicate anything but delivery.
  319. Andrew Nenakhov While 333 tells when message was displayed to user (kinda "read"), as opposing to just delivered to one of his devices and never viewed
  320. Zash Chat states can tell you whether the user is looking at the chat or not. chat state == active and receipt received := displayed, maybe read
  321. Zash Do I have to write my own client to show how this works?
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  323. Andrew Nenakhov User may have scrolled to 10 years ago do his activity in chat does not in the slightest indicate that he has seen a message in question.
  324. Andrew Nenakhov Read markers send progressive updates on user seeing messages that were sent to him.
  325. Andrew Nenakhov *so his activity in message above, not "do his activity"
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  327. Zash > most of it It's not 100%. But you can get the 80% that matters, eg by setting chat state=not active when they scroll up
  328. Andrew Nenakhov Ok, zash, I heard your opinion and we won't do 80% in our client. We need a good quality 100% solution, not repurposing XEP that was meant for other things to do read markers.
  329. Zash Good luck
  330. Andrew Nenakhov We do support xep 0085 for what it is purposed: indicating chat state. Also we want to extend it to send 'recording voice message', 'uploading file' states
  331. Holger Zash: What do you dislike about 0333?
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  333. Zash Holger: Overlap with 85 and 184.
  334. Andrew Nenakhov No overlap with 0085 at all.
  335. Andrew Nenakhov With 184, yes, there is, hence my question
  336. pep. Andrew Nenakhov, re extending 0085, as people have suggesting, that can be done, so I guess you can write the XEP :)
  337. Zash Holger: Also that people have asked me to implement it in Prosody, and when I read it, it made no sense to me whatsoever.
  338. Holger Andrew Nenakhov: I agree, I don't quite see the point of keeping 0184 either. Except everyone does it and nobody does 0333, as usual.
  339. Andrew Nenakhov Holger, well I think we'll probably use 333 then, discarding 184.
  340. Holger Zash: Implement it server-side?
  341. Andrew Nenakhov I was thinking of providing more gentle fallback, but overhead seems to be unnecessary.
  342. Zash Holger: Yes. With offers of payment.
  343. Andrew Nenakhov Hm. These are client side xeps
  344. Holger Andrew Nenakhov: The only thing I see that might be problematic is how a 0333 ACK also acknowledges all previous messages. So you can't really use it to check against unreliable message delivery.
  345. Zash Holger: What? Does it?
  346. Zash That sorta confirms my overall feeling of "it doesn't do what it says it's supposed to do"
  347. Andrew Nenakhov Holger, yes we are aware of that. We decided that server errors are sufficient to tell client that something went wrong with s2s delivery.
  348. Holger Zash: Yes? In my book that's a feature. Just mentioning the difference compared to 0184.
  349. Andrew Nenakhov > That sorta confirms my overall feeling of "it doesn't do what it says it's supposed to do" 333 is called "chat markers", not 333 "reliable s2s message delivery receipts"
  350. Holger Andrew Nenakhov: I agree there as well. If our message delivery isn't reliable we should make it reliable rather than making sure we expose the problem properly to the end user.
  351. Holger And 0333's behavior is much nicer than 0184's e.g. when syncing up tons of messages from MAM or so.
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  357. Ge0rG Holger: except we could easily solve that by allowing multiple markers in a single 0184 message.
  358. Ge0rG Bump the namespace, have a server side module translate in both directions and to 0333
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  363. Andrew Nenakhov Ge0rG, in practice you don't need to send markers on every message, it's unnecessarily excessive.
  364. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: did I mention how it would make sense to integrate 0184, 0198 acks and self-carbons with mam-id into one awesome session thing?
  365. Ge0rG For remote 0184/0333 it would actually make sense to make them CSI unimportant
  366. Ge0rG I wonder which implementations do
  367. Andrew Nenakhov We are getting rid of 0198.
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  369. Andrew Nenakhov We came to conclusion that the way forward is not resumption of stream on reconnect, but restoration of current state.
  370. Ge0rG There is a fine line between these two
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  374. Holger Ge0rG: ejabberd's CSI (by default) sends you only the most recent chat state of a given JID when you become active again.
  375. Holger (I was going to de-dup 0333 as well just keep forgetting.)
  376. Ge0rG Holger: that's useful.
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  381. Holger Ge0rG: Not sure the traffic savings are such a big deal, you mobile guys usually tell me it doesn't really matter once the cost of waking the radio is payed. I mostly do these things to keep the CSI queue size smaller, to get less frequent queue flushes.
  382. jonas’ Holger, well, on bad links, every friggin byte counts ;)
  383. jonas’ and you don’t want everything to hang just because you replayed the last 15 minutes of chat states in xsf@
  384. Ge0rG Holger: without the evil compression, keeping only the latest presence and chat state will make sense indeed. I'm not sure either, but I can imagine that the phone will stay on 2G if there is not too much data
  385. Ge0rG Yeah, we finally need parallel streams over one TCP connection.
  386. jonas’ SCTP!
  387. jonas’ HTTP/2!
  388. jonas’ barf
  389. Ge0rG QUIX
  390. jonas’ itym QUIC?
  391. Ge0rG Whatever. X is for XMPP! 🤷‍♂️
  392. MattJ I just want to mention, at the summit it was suggested that IM-NG could put chatstates in presence
  393. MattJ Everything about this makes sense to me
  394. MattJ *in directed presence
  395. Zash That makes .. some sense
  396. MattJ Yep
  397. Andrew Nenakhov Intriguing but I'm not convinced.
  398. MattJ Sensible clients already discard chat state info when they receive unavailable presence
  399. MattJ Most of the past week someone in this room was typing a message (it's "fixed" since I restarted my client)
  400. MattJ But consider that if someone is typing, you don't get that info when you join a MUC, you would if it was in presence
  401. MattJ It cancels when they go offline, without the client needing to do extra work
  402. Ge0rG It should time out after 30s or so anyway.
  403. MattJ Some people type slowly :)
  404. Ge0rG Let me rephrase that: it should expire after 30s and be refreshed by the sending client every 15s.
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  406. Guus (combined with a pop-up in the client that asks the user to kindly write a chat message, not an email)
  407. Andrew Nenakhov Guus, Most emails I get these days are shorter than your message
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  409. Guus Lucky bastard.
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  417. jjrh less lucky when it's a response to a long email with multiple questions asked.
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  420. Guus that's why you never, ever, must ask more than one question in an email message.
  421. Guus send mulitiple messages if you have more questions.
  422. Andrew Nenakhov Btw I can't understand how internet has arrived to this abysmal culture to reply above original email and not include quoted text properly
  423. Andrew Nenakhov FIDO had a culture of quoting covered in 1993
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  425. jonas’ it’s all those vegetarians with their TOFU (sorry, I’ll show myself out)
  426. pep. I like tofu! and I'm not veg(etari)?an
  427. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: blame Microsoft Outlook
  428. Andrew Nenakhov AN>>> original message MJ>> reply to it MJ>> second line of reply AN> third level reply And my answer What could be more simple and better?
  429. jonas’ Andrew Nenakhov, I heard from a non-representative sample of non-technicals that that layout is extremely confusing.
  430. Ge0rG Nobody but nerds can follow nested quotes.
  431. Guus Nobody but nerds care, either.
  432. Ge0rG Yeah. That, too
  433. pep. I'm sure they're blaming $things when they don't understand what the reply is talking about and they have to read 5 huge emails above.
  434. Zash Eternal September
  435. pep. But not the fact that they're top-posting
  436. Andrew Nenakhov FIDO was full of non tech people and no one had problems with it cause mail editors automatically took care of these initials and >>> symbold
  437. Ge0rG > Andrew Nenakhov: blame Microsoft Outlook
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  440. oli Andrew Nenakhov: it was | in fido, if i remember correctly
  441. oli Not >
  442. Andrew Nenakhov In Russian Fido it was definitely >
  443. Andrew Nenakhov http://www.fandom.ru/fido/ru_fantasy/text/67.htm
  444. oli i think my brain is broken
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  448. Andrew Nenakhov That's what we Russian hackers do.
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  451. oli at least it's not my fault 🤕
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  453. oli anyway, i also don't remember any major problems with quoting in fidonet. but maybe i'm remembering it all wrong ;)
  454. Andrew Nenakhov There were moderators who gave you * and + for overquoting, that kinda kept quotes in check
  455. oli bandwith was limited :)
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  564. zinid jonas’, is there any ETA when XEP-XOR and XEP-EAX will be published? I need the XEP numbers for references.
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  568. zinid jonas’, maybe I can help somehow?
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