XSF Discussion - 2019-03-04

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  296. Andrew Nenakhov

    Is there any reason to choose license different from GNU LGPL for an open source iOS library with .ogg support?

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  302. tux

    embedded systems that use static linking?

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  305. Andrew Nenakhov

    Well, has anyone heard of embedded iOS devices?

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  309. Andrew Nenakhov

    Also. Are there any reasons to use xep 184 delivery receipts, or xep-333 chat markers can do everything 184 can plus some more. ?

  310. flow

    Andrew Nenakhov, xep184 is possibly more widely supported

  311. flow

    and i've heard that xep333 is going to change (but I am hearing that for a while now without anything happen)

  312. Zash

    Is there a reason to use 333 when 184 and 85 does most of it?

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  316. Andrew Nenakhov

    It does not.

  317. Andrew Nenakhov

    Xep 085 has very different purpose

  318. Andrew Nenakhov

    And 184 does not indicate anything but delivery.

  319. Andrew Nenakhov

    While 333 tells when message was displayed to user (kinda "read"), as opposing to just delivered to one of his devices and never viewed

  320. Zash

    Chat states can tell you whether the user is looking at the chat or not. chat state == active and receipt received := displayed, maybe read

  321. Zash

    Do I have to write my own client to show how this works?

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  323. Andrew Nenakhov

    User may have scrolled to 10 years ago do his activity in chat does not in the slightest indicate that he has seen a message in question.

  324. Andrew Nenakhov

    Read markers send progressive updates on user seeing messages that were sent to him.

  325. Andrew Nenakhov

    *so his activity in message above, not "do his activity"

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  327. Zash

    > most of it It's not 100%. But you can get the 80% that matters, eg by setting chat state=not active when they scroll up

  328. Andrew Nenakhov

    Ok, zash, I heard your opinion and we won't do 80% in our client. We need a good quality 100% solution, not repurposing XEP that was meant for other things to do read markers.

  329. Zash

    Good luck

  330. Andrew Nenakhov

    We do support xep 0085 for what it is purposed: indicating chat state. Also we want to extend it to send 'recording voice message', 'uploading file' states

  331. Holger

    Zash: What do you dislike about 0333?

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  333. Zash

    Holger: Overlap with 85 and 184.

  334. Andrew Nenakhov

    No overlap with 0085 at all.

  335. Andrew Nenakhov

    With 184, yes, there is, hence my question

  336. pep.

    Andrew Nenakhov, re extending 0085, as people have suggesting, that can be done, so I guess you can write the XEP :)

  337. Zash

    Holger: Also that people have asked me to implement it in Prosody, and when I read it, it made no sense to me whatsoever.

  338. Holger

    Andrew Nenakhov: I agree, I don't quite see the point of keeping 0184 either. Except everyone does it and nobody does 0333, as usual.

  339. Andrew Nenakhov

    Holger, well I think we'll probably use 333 then, discarding 184.

  340. Holger

    Zash: Implement it server-side?

  341. Andrew Nenakhov

    I was thinking of providing more gentle fallback, but overhead seems to be unnecessary.

  342. Zash

    Holger: Yes. With offers of payment.

  343. Andrew Nenakhov

    Hm. These are client side xeps

  344. Holger

    Andrew Nenakhov: The only thing I see that might be problematic is how a 0333 ACK also acknowledges all previous messages. So you can't really use it to check against unreliable message delivery.

  345. Zash

    Holger: What? Does it?

  346. Zash

    That sorta confirms my overall feeling of "it doesn't do what it says it's supposed to do"

  347. Andrew Nenakhov

    Holger, yes we are aware of that. We decided that server errors are sufficient to tell client that something went wrong with s2s delivery.

  348. Holger

    Zash: Yes? In my book that's a feature. Just mentioning the difference compared to 0184.

  349. Andrew Nenakhov

    > That sorta confirms my overall feeling of "it doesn't do what it says it's supposed to do" 333 is called "chat markers", not 333 "reliable s2s message delivery receipts"

  350. Holger

    Andrew Nenakhov: I agree there as well. If our message delivery isn't reliable we should make it reliable rather than making sure we expose the problem properly to the end user.

  351. Holger

    And 0333's behavior is much nicer than 0184's e.g. when syncing up tons of messages from MAM or so.

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  357. Ge0rG

    Holger: except we could easily solve that by allowing multiple markers in a single 0184 message.

  358. Ge0rG

    Bump the namespace, have a server side module translate in both directions and to 0333

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  363. Andrew Nenakhov

    Ge0rG, in practice you don't need to send markers on every message, it's unnecessarily excessive.

  364. Ge0rG

    Andrew Nenakhov: did I mention how it would make sense to integrate 0184, 0198 acks and self-carbons with mam-id into one awesome session thing?

  365. Ge0rG

    For remote 0184/0333 it would actually make sense to make them CSI unimportant

  366. Ge0rG

    I wonder which implementations do

  367. Andrew Nenakhov

    We are getting rid of 0198.

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  369. Andrew Nenakhov

    We came to conclusion that the way forward is not resumption of stream on reconnect, but restoration of current state.

  370. Ge0rG

    There is a fine line between these two

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  374. Holger

    Ge0rG: ejabberd's CSI (by default) sends you only the most recent chat state of a given JID when you become active again.

  375. Holger

    (I was going to de-dup 0333 as well just keep forgetting.)

  376. Ge0rG

    Holger: that's useful.

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  381. Holger

    Ge0rG: Not sure the traffic savings are such a big deal, you mobile guys usually tell me it doesn't really matter once the cost of waking the radio is payed. I mostly do these things to keep the CSI queue size smaller, to get less frequent queue flushes.

  382. jonas’

    Holger, well, on bad links, every friggin byte counts ;)

  383. jonas’

    and you don’t want everything to hang just because you replayed the last 15 minutes of chat states in xsf@

  384. Ge0rG

    Holger: without the evil compression, keeping only the latest presence and chat state will make sense indeed. I'm not sure either, but I can imagine that the phone will stay on 2G if there is not too much data

  385. Ge0rG

    Yeah, we finally need parallel streams over one TCP connection.

  386. jonas’


  387. jonas’


  388. jonas’


  389. Ge0rG


  390. jonas’

    itym QUIC?

  391. Ge0rG

    Whatever. X is for XMPP! 🤷‍♂️

  392. MattJ

    I just want to mention, at the summit it was suggested that IM-NG could put chatstates in presence

  393. MattJ

    Everything about this makes sense to me

  394. MattJ

    *in directed presence

  395. Zash

    That makes .. some sense

  396. MattJ


  397. Andrew Nenakhov

    Intriguing but I'm not convinced.

  398. MattJ

    Sensible clients already discard chat state info when they receive unavailable presence

  399. MattJ

    Most of the past week someone in this room was typing a message (it's "fixed" since I restarted my client)

  400. MattJ

    But consider that if someone is typing, you don't get that info when you join a MUC, you would if it was in presence

  401. MattJ

    It cancels when they go offline, without the client needing to do extra work

  402. Ge0rG

    It should time out after 30s or so anyway.

  403. MattJ

    Some people type slowly :)

  404. Ge0rG

    Let me rephrase that: it should expire after 30s and be refreshed by the sending client every 15s.

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  406. Guus

    (combined with a pop-up in the client that asks the user to kindly write a chat message, not an email)

  407. Andrew Nenakhov

    Guus, Most emails I get these days are shorter than your message

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  409. Guus

    Lucky bastard.

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  417. jjrh

    less lucky when it's a response to a long email with multiple questions asked.

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  420. Guus

    that's why you never, ever, must ask more than one question in an email message.

  421. Guus

    send mulitiple messages if you have more questions.

  422. Andrew Nenakhov

    Btw I can't understand how internet has arrived to this abysmal culture to reply above original email and not include quoted text properly

  423. Andrew Nenakhov

    FIDO had a culture of quoting covered in 1993

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  425. jonas’

    it’s all those vegetarians with their TOFU (sorry, I’ll show myself out)

  426. pep.

    I like tofu! and I'm not veg(etari)?an

  427. Ge0rG

    Andrew Nenakhov: blame Microsoft Outlook

  428. Andrew Nenakhov

    AN>>> original message MJ>> reply to it MJ>> second line of reply AN> third level reply And my answer What could be more simple and better?

  429. jonas’

    Andrew Nenakhov, I heard from a non-representative sample of non-technicals that that layout is extremely confusing.

  430. Ge0rG

    Nobody but nerds can follow nested quotes.

  431. Guus

    Nobody but nerds care, either.

  432. Ge0rG

    Yeah. That, too

  433. pep.

    I'm sure they're blaming $things when they don't understand what the reply is talking about and they have to read 5 huge emails above.

  434. Zash

    Eternal September

  435. pep.

    But not the fact that they're top-posting

  436. Andrew Nenakhov

    FIDO was full of non tech people and no one had problems with it cause mail editors automatically took care of these initials and >>> symbold

  437. Ge0rG

    > Andrew Nenakhov: blame Microsoft Outlook

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  440. oli

    Andrew Nenakhov: it was | in fido, if i remember correctly

  441. oli

    Not >

  442. Andrew Nenakhov

    In Russian Fido it was definitely >

  443. Andrew Nenakhov


  444. oli

    i think my brain is broken

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  448. Andrew Nenakhov

    That's what we Russian hackers do.

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  451. oli

    at least it's not my fault 🤕

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  453. oli

    anyway, i also don't remember any major problems with quoting in fidonet. but maybe i'm remembering it all wrong ;)

  454. Andrew Nenakhov

    There were moderators who gave you * and + for overquoting, that kinda kept quotes in check

  455. oli

    bandwith was limited :)

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  564. zinid

    jonas’, is there any ETA when XEP-XOR and XEP-EAX will be published? I need the XEP numbers for references.

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  568. zinid

    jonas’, maybe I can help somehow?

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  623. Alex has joined

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