-
lude5
aaaaaa
-
Andrew Nenakhov
Is there any reason to choose license different from GNU LGPL for an open source iOS library with .ogg support?
-
tux
embedded systems that use static linking?
-
Andrew Nenakhov
Well, has anyone heard of embedded iOS devices?
-
Andrew Nenakhov
Also. Are there any reasons to use xep 184 delivery receipts, or xep-333 chat markers can do everything 184 can plus some more. ?
-
flow
Andrew Nenakhov, xep184 is possibly more widely supported
-
flow
and i've heard that xep333 is going to change (but I am hearing that for a while now without anything happen)
-
Zash
Is there a reason to use 333 when 184 and 85 does most of it?
-
Andrew Nenakhov
It does not.
-
Andrew Nenakhov
Xep 085 has very different purpose
-
Andrew Nenakhov
And 184 does not indicate anything but delivery.
-
Andrew Nenakhov
While 333 tells when message was displayed to user (kinda "read"), as opposing to just delivered to one of his devices and never viewed
-
Zash
Chat states can tell you whether the user is looking at the chat or not. chat state == active and receipt received := displayed, maybe read
-
Zash
Do I have to write my own client to show how this works?
-
Andrew Nenakhov
User may have scrolled to 10 years ago do his activity in chat does not in the slightest indicate that he has seen a message in question.
-
Andrew Nenakhov
Read markers send progressive updates on user seeing messages that were sent to him.
-
Andrew Nenakhov
*so his activity in message above, not "do his activity"
-
Zash
> most of it It's not 100%. But you can get the 80% that matters, eg by setting chat state=not active when they scroll up
-
Andrew Nenakhov
Ok, zash, I heard your opinion and we won't do 80% in our client. We need a good quality 100% solution, not repurposing XEP that was meant for other things to do read markers.
-
Zash
Good luck
-
Andrew Nenakhov
We do support xep 0085 for what it is purposed: indicating chat state. Also we want to extend it to send 'recording voice message', 'uploading file' states
-
Holger
Zash: What do you dislike about 0333?
-
Zash
Holger: Overlap with 85 and 184.
-
Andrew Nenakhov
No overlap with 0085 at all.
-
Andrew Nenakhov
With 184, yes, there is, hence my question
-
pep.
Andrew Nenakhov, re extending 0085, as people have suggesting, that can be done, so I guess you can write the XEP :)
-
Zash
Holger: Also that people have asked me to implement it in Prosody, and when I read it, it made no sense to me whatsoever.
-
Holger
Andrew Nenakhov: I agree, I don't quite see the point of keeping 0184 either. Except everyone does it and nobody does 0333, as usual.
-
Andrew Nenakhov
Holger, well I think we'll probably use 333 then, discarding 184.
-
Holger
Zash: Implement it server-side?
-
Andrew Nenakhov
I was thinking of providing more gentle fallback, but overhead seems to be unnecessary.
-
Zash
Holger: Yes. With offers of payment.
-
Andrew Nenakhov
Hm. These are client side xeps
-
Holger
Andrew Nenakhov: The only thing I see that might be problematic is how a 0333 ACK also acknowledges all previous messages. So you can't really use it to check against unreliable message delivery.
-
Zash
Holger: What? Does it?
-
Zash
That sorta confirms my overall feeling of "it doesn't do what it says it's supposed to do"
-
Andrew Nenakhov
Holger, yes we are aware of that. We decided that server errors are sufficient to tell client that something went wrong with s2s delivery.
-
Holger
Zash: Yes? In my book that's a feature. Just mentioning the difference compared to 0184.
-
Andrew Nenakhov
> That sorta confirms my overall feeling of "it doesn't do what it says it's supposed to do" 333 is called "chat markers", not 333 "reliable s2s message delivery receipts"
-
Holger
Andrew Nenakhov: I agree there as well. If our message delivery isn't reliable we should make it reliable rather than making sure we expose the problem properly to the end user.
-
Holger
And 0333's behavior is much nicer than 0184's e.g. when syncing up tons of messages from MAM or so.
-
Ge0rG
Holger: except we could easily solve that by allowing multiple markers in a single 0184 message.
-
Ge0rG
Bump the namespace, have a server side module translate in both directions and to 0333
-
Andrew Nenakhov
Ge0rG, in practice you don't need to send markers on every message, it's unnecessarily excessive.
-
Ge0rG
Andrew Nenakhov: did I mention how it would make sense to integrate 0184, 0198 acks and self-carbons with mam-id into one awesome session thing?
-
Ge0rG
For remote 0184/0333 it would actually make sense to make them CSI unimportant
-
Ge0rG
I wonder which implementations do
-
Andrew Nenakhov
We are getting rid of 0198.
-
Andrew Nenakhov
We came to conclusion that the way forward is not resumption of stream on reconnect, but restoration of current state.
-
Ge0rG
There is a fine line between these two
-
Holger
Ge0rG: ejabberd's CSI (by default) sends you only the most recent chat state of a given JID when you become active again.
-
Holger
(I was going to de-dup 0333 as well just keep forgetting.)
-
Ge0rG
Holger: that's useful.
-
Holger
Ge0rG: Not sure the traffic savings are such a big deal, you mobile guys usually tell me it doesn't really matter once the cost of waking the radio is payed. I mostly do these things to keep the CSI queue size smaller, to get less frequent queue flushes.
-
jonas’
Holger, well, on bad links, every friggin byte counts ;)
-
jonas’
and you don’t want everything to hang just because you replayed the last 15 minutes of chat states in xsf@
-
Ge0rG
Holger: without the evil compression, keeping only the latest presence and chat state will make sense indeed. I'm not sure either, but I can imagine that the phone will stay on 2G if there is not too much data
-
Ge0rG
Yeah, we finally need parallel streams over one TCP connection.
-
jonas’
SCTP!
-
jonas’
HTTP/2!
-
jonas’
barf
-
Ge0rG
QUIX
-
jonas’
itym QUIC?
-
Ge0rG
Whatever. X is for XMPP! 🤷♂️
-
MattJ
I just want to mention, at the summit it was suggested that IM-NG could put chatstates in presence
-
MattJ
Everything about this makes sense to me
-
MattJ
*in directed presence
-
Zash
That makes .. some sense
-
MattJ
Yep
-
Andrew Nenakhov
Intriguing but I'm not convinced.
-
MattJ
Sensible clients already discard chat state info when they receive unavailable presence
-
MattJ
Most of the past week someone in this room was typing a message (it's "fixed" since I restarted my client)
-
MattJ
But consider that if someone is typing, you don't get that info when you join a MUC, you would if it was in presence
-
MattJ
It cancels when they go offline, without the client needing to do extra work
-
Ge0rG
It should time out after 30s or so anyway.
-
MattJ
Some people type slowly :)
-
Ge0rG
Let me rephrase that: it should expire after 30s and be refreshed by the sending client every 15s.
-
Guus
(combined with a pop-up in the client that asks the user to kindly write a chat message, not an email)
-
Andrew Nenakhov
Guus, Most emails I get these days are shorter than your message
-
Guus
Lucky bastard.
-
jjrh
less lucky when it's a response to a long email with multiple questions asked.
-
Guus
that's why you never, ever, must ask more than one question in an email message.
-
Guus
send mulitiple messages if you have more questions.
-
Andrew Nenakhov
Btw I can't understand how internet has arrived to this abysmal culture to reply above original email and not include quoted text properly
-
Andrew Nenakhov
FIDO had a culture of quoting covered in 1993
-
jonas’
it’s all those vegetarians with their TOFU (sorry, I’ll show myself out)
-
pep.
I like tofu! and I'm not veg(etari)?an
-
Ge0rG
Andrew Nenakhov: blame Microsoft Outlook
-
Andrew Nenakhov
AN>>> original message MJ>> reply to it MJ>> second line of reply AN> third level reply And my answer What could be more simple and better?
-
jonas’
Andrew Nenakhov, I heard from a non-representative sample of non-technicals that that layout is extremely confusing.
-
Ge0rG
Nobody but nerds can follow nested quotes.
-
Guus
Nobody but nerds care, either.
-
Ge0rG
Yeah. That, too
-
pep.
I'm sure they're blaming $things when they don't understand what the reply is talking about and they have to read 5 huge emails above.
-
Zash
Eternal September
-
pep.
But not the fact that they're top-posting
-
Andrew Nenakhov
FIDO was full of non tech people and no one had problems with it cause mail editors automatically took care of these initials and >>> symbold
-
Ge0rG
> Andrew Nenakhov: blame Microsoft Outlook
-
oli
Andrew Nenakhov: it was | in fido, if i remember correctly
-
oli
Not >
-
Andrew Nenakhov
In Russian Fido it was definitely >
-
Andrew Nenakhov
http://www.fandom.ru/fido/ru_fantasy/text/67.htm
-
oli
i think my brain is broken
-
Andrew Nenakhov
That's what we Russian hackers do.
-
oli
at least it's not my fault 🤕
-
oli
anyway, i also don't remember any major problems with quoting in fidonet. but maybe i'm remembering it all wrong ;)
-
Andrew Nenakhov
There were moderators who gave you * and + for overquoting, that kinda kept quotes in check
-
oli
bandwith was limited :)
-
zinid
jonas’, is there any ETA when XEP-XOR and XEP-EAX will be published? I need the XEP numbers for references.
-
zinid
jonas’, maybe I can help somehow?