XSF Discussion - 2019-03-06

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  92. zinid can someone point me where in the RFCs it's said that a client must ignore 'to' of incoming stanzas?
  93. zinid I might be blind, cannot find it
  94. zinid ah, found
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  96. flow zinid, where?
  97. flow I only had https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6120#section- in mind
  98. zinid yes, it is
  99. zinid there is no need for the client to check the 'to' address of incoming stanzas. However, if the client does check the 'to' address then it is suggested to check at most the bare JID portion (not the full JID), since the 'to' address might be the user's bare JID, the client's current full JID, or even a full JID with a different resourcepart
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  101. flow that is not really "most ignore", isn't it? ;)
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  104. zinid sorry for not being exactly precise in this bureacratic chatroom!
  105. Ge0rG I'm currently challenged by "check whether the user has finished entering a JID yet". The current naive version just lets the server hammer DNS and s2s...
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  108. Ge0rG https://op-co.de/tmp/yaxim-jid-search.mp4
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  110. waqas Ge0rG: I don't think I've ever had say an email client attempt that… why check for valid JIDs that way?
  111. Ge0rG waqas: I hope for better usability. First I was going to filter based on the public suffix list, but then I realized it's huge, complicated and messy, and it doesn't support local deployments
  112. waqas "it doesn't support local deployments" — wat? browsers do embed it, and tend to work locally...
  113. Ge0rG waqas: I mean it won't accept "mycoolxmpp.local"
  114. waqas If you want local stuff, well "helloworld" is a valid local hostname
  115. Ge0rG Also I'd have to either embed an immediately outdated list or load it at runtime periodically.
  116. Ge0rG waqas: that's exactly my point
  117. waqas I'm struggling to see the usability goal. What are you trying to solve for?
  118. waqas People mistyping hostname?
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  121. Ge0rG Giving people a way to explore xmpp? Dunno
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  123. waqas I wonder if there's a use-case for a directory of all publicly accessible XMPP servers
  124. Ge0rG It would be a good thing for auto completion.
  125. zinid > Giving people a way to explore xmpp? That's not needed
  126. Ge0rG > Giving people a way to explore MQTT?
  127. Wiktor For me the demo looked good 👍 I'd use that.
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  131. jonas’ Ge0rG, maybe add an explicit search button and prepare to integrate it with Jabber Search
  132. Ge0rG jonas’: it'a already integrated, you just need to open the lower group
  133. Ge0rG I'm still not sure about "have all ways to add JIDs in one dialog" vs "omg what is all this shit"
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  135. jonas’ Jabber Search is not muclumbus
  136. Ge0rG Wait. What's Jabber Search then?
  137. jonas’ XEP something
  138. Ge0rG something something.
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  140. jonas’ I don’t know it off the top of my head, you’ll find it in the XEP list, I’m at work
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  146. Ge0rG https://op-co.de/tmp/smack-typesystem.png
  147. Ge0rG *sigh*
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  180. zinid Ge0rG, you asked: http://upload.zinid.ru/xep-eax-csr.html
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  206. Kev Is slixmpp now the only maintained fork of sleek?
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  220. pep. Kev, are there any others?
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  224. Kev That's what I was asking.
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  228. pep. No you're asking if slixmpp is the only one :p
  229. pep. I know only of slixmpp
  230. pep. Link Mauve, ^
  231. Link Mauve That’s the only one I know of.
  232. Link Mauve And I’d really like to merge both projects, the only thing SleekXMPP has got for it is its python2 support, and that is getting EoL’d quick.
  233. Link Mauve SleekXMPP still seems pretty popular, so if we could just reuse the name and the website and rename the next slixmpp version that, it’d be perfect.
  234. flow Ge0rG, https://github.com/Flowdalic/android-xmpp-iot-demo/blob/master/app/src/main/java/com/clayster/xmppiotdemo/JidTextWatcher.java#L61 is what I did a while ago
  235. flow regarding user provided jid string verification
  236. Ge0rG flow: yeah, but I also need it to work on domain JIDs, and this is somewhat harder ;)
  237. Ge0rG flow: did you see last night's yaxim video?
  238. flow Ge0rG, no
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  240. Ge0rG flow: what I'm essentially looking for is "does the whole string / what comes after an @ qualify as a domain part"
  241. Ge0rG https://op-co.de/tmp/yaxim-jid-search.mp4
  242. Ge0rG flow: ^
  243. Wiktor Ge0rG: can't you just cheat somehow? I dont know... Fire dns srv queries on the client?... :)
  244. Ge0rG Wiktor: my ISP is already serving ServFail to SRV requests... with a 3s delay.
  245. Ge0rG Sending a disco#info is actually the least work for me.
  246. Wiktor Dns over HTTPS! For every problem I've got two solutions a.k.a "next problems"
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  248. Wiktor for faster access better grab a local client index of all jabber domains, as TLS certs are now logged in Certificate Transparency logs the list is there... but it would take a lot of space... so use bloom filters, see, easy! ;-)
  249. Wiktor no, I just got a better, CaaS - Completion as a Service, you send a query and it autocompletes the domain part, then you can start offering it to others for a small fee... it's an unmet need right there :)
  250. flow Ge0rG, the "what comes after the @ qualify as domain part" check is what the code I linked does
  251. flow plus, does the string before the @ qualify as localpart
  252. Ge0rG flow: it only checks whether what's between @ and / is non-empty.
  253. flow Ge0rG, I don't think so
  254. Ge0rG Wiktor: https://foaas.com/greed/cloud/Ge0rG 😁
  255. Wiktor Wow, great... 👍
  256. Ge0rG flow: it calls JidUtil.isValidEntityBareJid() which splits and calls XmppStringUtils.parseDomain() which just splits, and then checks the length.
  257. Ge0rG flow: unless you added magic in smack 4.4
  258. Ge0rG or rather, jxmpp 0.6.4
  259. flow Ge0rG, hmm, no?
  260. flow you possibly missed that line: https://github.com/igniterealtime/jxmpp/blob/0.6/jxmpp-jid/src/main/java/org/jxmpp/jid/util/JidUtil.java#L140
  261. Ge0rG flow: ah, right, it goes down into Domainpart.from() which also ensures domainprep.
  262. Ge0rG but I'm not sure how much that actually adds.
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  267. Ge0rG flow: or, in other words, does it add any value over attempting to JidCreate.from(string)?
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  270. Ge0rG is also interested in feedback on the search UX
  271. zinid btw, great twitter (uh!) thread what people thinking about XMPP: https://twitter.com/bascule/status/1102693889842921472 😀
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  277. flow Ge0rG, it does. It ensures that there is a "valid" localpart and domainpart, and no resourcepart, and provides better feedback about what is missing for the string to become a valid JID
  278. Ge0rG flow: but I'm hiding the error anyway, at least in the last version ;)
  279. Ge0rG https://twitter.com/DLitz/status/1102961301616156676 🤣🤣🤣
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  281. zinid Ge0rG, wut?
  282. zinid I actually replied to this
  283. dwd Has anyone got a server-side implementation of MIX-PAM (XEP-0405) anywhere?
  284. Ge0rG zinid: yeah, saw that a bit later. Master trolling at work.
  285. zinid dwd, I have
  286. zinid dwd, part of ejabberd 19.02 actually
  287. Ge0rG Damn android single tasking. If I open Twitter links from yaxim, then use yaxim, the Twitter client forgets what I was looking at.
  288. zinid Ge0rG, yeah, that's annoying AF
  289. zinid Ge0rG, and btw I didn't mean to troll, but whatever
  290. Ge0rG zinid: not speaking of you! 😀
  291. zinid oh, really, I'm impressed
  292. zinid yeah, that dude just goes full strawman hoping from subject to subject
  293. zinid and gains a ton of likes because, well, XMPP is godawful
  294. dwd zinid, Oh, really? That's awesome. I'll check it out.
  295. zinid dwd, I can create you an account at my server, I'm running mix pam there
  296. dwd zinid, Is it a module? And is it available (open source, downloadable, whatever)?
  297. zinid dwd, yes, it's a module (actually two) and is a part of ejabberd distribution
  298. Ge0rG While that thread is actually rather sad, it's showing Twitter at its best. You can try to convince them, or try to insult them, but it's not going to change anything.
  299. dwd zinid, Do you have any clients or MIX servers that use it?
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  302. dwd Oh, wow. Found a client library that supports MIX, and claims to have a GUI client. (Which is an example only - I've not attempted to see if it has a MIX UI yet).
  303. pep. dwd, slixmpp has OMEMO, Jingle, and MAM support (I think?), poezio has none of that :P
  304. zinid dwd: no I don't, Daniel has some experimental branch of Conversations though, we tested our implementations
  305. dwd zinid, https://github.com/qxmpp-project/qxmpp might work, I have no clue.
  306. dwd pep., Yeah, the MAM is handy, and the '60, but no MIX. I might have to fix that.
  307. zinid Ge0rG: true, they have already set up their minds, and I am not sure this is actually attributed to Twitter
  308. pep. Heh, qxmpp, is that what the telepathy people starting to use?
  309. pep. for telepathy-nonsense?
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  311. zinid Ge0rG: this is just blatant IT hype and groupthinking
  312. Ge0rG zinid: twitter is known for this kind of toxicity. It's also a good place for short, "state-less" rants making it impossible to have a proper debate based on merit
  313. Ge0rG it's like XMPP! 😁
  314. zinid Ge0rG: well you can debate at other more appropriate place, but you can do nothing when you're told that XML is shit (which is I agree BTW)
  315. zinid and every xmpp discussion ends up there
  316. Ge0rG zinid: I agree with that too, and I'd love to see them solving extensibility on top of JSON :>
  317. Ge0rG But they can't.
  318. zinid Ge0rG: you can do that in asn.1 😁
  319. zinid oids ftw!
  320. Ge0rG Anyway, with Matrix we do have the anti-design to XMPP. Monolithic spec instead of modular, JSON instead of XML, persistent message database instead of a stream of ephemeral events. Let's wait five years and see what sticks.
  321. dwd Extensibility is easy in JSON. Permissionless extensibility is somewhat harder.
  322. jonas’ zinid, mmm, OIDs, which you can only allocate with a bureaucratic process which doesn’t even work?
  323. zinid yeah, sticks where?
  324. zinid jonas’: why doesn't it work? last time we registered oids in iana
  325. zinid in 2004 😂
  326. dwd But my usual argument about XMPP and XML is that we don't use XML like SOAP - instead, it's very terse XML and pragmatically-driven, so while it's still XML, it's vastly nicer than what they may have experienced before.
  327. Andrew Nenakhov > persistent message database instead of a stream of ephemeral events. That one is actually good
  328. dwd Sorta - you can record a stream, but you can't make a persistent database ephemeral.
  329. zinid dwd: yeah, but I'd love to see those arguments spelled at public, not in this chat where everyone is already converted 😁
  330. dwd zinid, For sure.
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  332. dwd zinid, Also, the "Nobody uses XMPP" thing, except for half the games industry, military, government, and so on.
  333. zinid also, though xml is not, let's say, ideal, it's not as fatal as opponent trying to draw it
  334. zinid also, though xml is not, let's say, ideal, it's not as fatal as opponents trying to draw it
  335. zinid it's just not ideal, indeed
  336. Ge0rG Indeed. There are larger problems in XMPP. Maybe we should tell them about the mess that is MUC, Carbons and message routing (which are just my favorite pet problems)
  337. Andrew Nenakhov But but it's confusing! 😂
  338. zinid > That one is actually good Andrew Nenakhov: agreed
  339. Seve pep., qxmpp is what Kaidan is using if I recall correctly, lnj?
  340. zinid Ge0rG: we can say that of course, but they won't even understand those problem may exist, because designing protocols is easy
  341. zinid you just need to stick to json and http!
  342. zinid > That one is actually good although seems like the design is awful, looking at how their servers behaves
  343. Ge0rG zinid: implement matrix protocol in ejabberd! 😁😁
  344. zinid and you probably cannot make such type of replication terribly efficient, so matrix will be always slower than xmpp by design
  345. zinid Ge0rG: we considered that a few years ago and I had the discussion about it a few *days* ago with the boss
  346. zinid the conclusion is "this will require too much effort, let's wait if matrix demonstrate some real progress except hype"
  347. zinid 5 years have passed and where is the progress?
  348. Zash What's 'this'?
  349. zinid Zash: implementing matrix in ejabberd
  350. zinid note that after 5 years of evolving of xmpp we had several servers and clients and rfcs
  351. Zash Implementing the c2s protocol is probably doable, then we can steal all their clients. ;)
  352. Zash The s2s protocol .. yeah, no.
  353. zinid Zash: doable of course, but requires full time commitment and we are currently limited in human resources at p1
  354. pep. s/ at p1//
  355. zinid mqtt and sip were much easier to implement
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  357. zinid also, the only attractive part of the protocol is replication, everything else is terrible, they reiterate the mistakes of xmpp
  358. zinid and I personally rather disappointed in federation and looking at P2P
  359. Zash Doesn't MQTT provide way less functionality than what XMPP-Core does?
  360. Zash It seems weird to me to compare MQTT to XMPP
  361. zinid Zash: sure, mqtt is very dumb
  362. zinid Zash: you cannot compare them
  363. zinid I don't understand why people do that all the time
  364. Andrew Nenakhov I personally don't think that full p2p will have great UX
  365. zinid Andrew Nenakhov: not full
  366. zinid I could say here wait for me to complete my xor proposal, but seems like nobody reads them 😂
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  369. zinid Zash: did you read the matrix s2s spec BTW? Is it finalized?
  370. Zash zinid: Not really and not really.
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  373. zinid ok, let's wait 5 more years
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  377. zinid > Also, the "Nobody uses XMPP" thing, except for half the games industry, military, government, and so on. dwd: oh, just saw it. yeah, virtually every second our customer is gamedev, hehe. xmpp is quite strong there.
  378. zinid and again, also the reason I consider MIX: group chats in gamedev is hell, thousands of participants
  379. Andrew Nenakhov Our Groupchats should probably handle that well and quite easy to implement
  380. zinid Andrew Nenakhov: 😉
  381. Ge0rG zinid: it would be really great to have testimonials from them about XMPP
  382. Ge0rG zinid: or maybe at least contact people to interview, cc winfried
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  384. zinid Ge0rG: hum, let me explain how their development is done: they hire some developers (usually from India) and assign them to work with us. their project managers are almost clueless and their bosses are totally clueless. so the question is whom to ask? that developer from India?
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  387. zinid chat infrastructure is actually a huge pain for gamedev they offload the work because that's not their area of competence
  388. Ge0rG zinid: good point. Is there some kind of in-house senior tech project manager?
  389. zinid so it's just like to ask you to promote that cool Japan engine in your murican car.
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  392. zinid Ge0rG: I don't contact them, so I am also not the right person to ask, sorry
  393. zinid and thanks gods I don't 😁
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  395. Ge0rG Haha!
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  482. lnj > pep., qxmpp is what Kaidan is using if I recall correctly, lnj? Yes, that's right and I'm working on the MIX implementation in QXmpp. It's not completely finished though and most of the pull requests haven't been merged yet.
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  491. jonas’ zinid, I assigned XEP-0415 to XOR and XEP-0416 to EAX
  492. jonas’ push is done, waiting for the build to happen, so ETA 1h or so
  493. zinid jonas’, thanks a lot
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  497. zinid https://rosenzweig.io/blog/the-federation-fallacy.html
  498. pep. zinid, #old, I linked that yesterday :p
  499. Andrew Nenakhov It was here a couple of days ago
  500. zinid argh
  501. zinid sorry guys, I'm too slow
  502. pep. https://lwn.net/Articles/781205/ comments
  503. zinid oh, good start: they attacked the author's graphs!
  504. Zash Don't read the comments
  505. zinid is it Dirac, power-law or loglog distribution? hum... so many questions
  506. oli has joined
  507. Andrew Nenakhov That funny article failed to address the most famous federated protocol: email
  508. jmpman has joined
  509. pep. No it did
  510. pep. You probably missed some points
  511. Ge0rG stop throwing links! I need to work still.
  512. Zash The part about how gmail has 100% of the market and self-hosting is impossible?
  513. zinid Ge0rG, I just copied it! You should have read it already
  514. Andrew Nenakhov pep., It didn't provide any graphs for email, I mean
  515. pep. Zash, I'm not saying I agree with all she's saying
  516. Ge0rG zinid: it's right behind your CA proto-XEP, but it will move up if you keep talking about it
  517. zinid Ge0rG, I shut up, carry on
  518. zinid nah, just joking, I cannot shut up
  519. debacle has joined
  520. Andrew Nenakhov Just claim that 'most people have email on Gmail', but what about outlook, Yahoo, mail.ru, hundreds of them noticeable big servers
  521. zinid Andrew Nenakhov, still power-law distribution
  522. Andrew Nenakhov Yes, but: not sharp and with plenty other choices.
  523. zinid I already have brought an article somewhere from 2001 where the same thesis about federation was spelled
  524. pep. zinid, I'm interested if you can find it again, but don't bother if it's too much of a hassle
  525. moparisthebest they are all basically the same "federation doesn't solve all problems" ok, agreed, also the sky is blue and water is wet, why the long blog post?
  526. Andrew Nenakhov Funny thing is, what do they offer as an alternative?
  527. Steve Kille has joined
  528. Zash Wikipedia
  529. Zash ?
  530. Andrew Nenakhov Centralized services, 'because federations are centralized anyway'?
  531. Ge0rG Facebook!
  532. zinid pep., http://shirky.com/writings/powerlaw_weblog.html
  533. zinid pep., from 2003, sorry!
  534. lovetox has joined
  535. zinid > In systems where many people are free to choose between many options, a small subset of the whole will get a disproportionate amount of traffic (or attention, or income), even if no members of the system actively work towards such an outcome. The very act of choosing, spread widely enough and freely enough, creates a power law distribution
  536. pep. thanks
  537. zinid so predicted 20 years ago
  538. zinid Andrew Nenakhov, centralization is a bad solution obviously
  539. zinid it has the same drawbacks plus others
  540. Zash That reminds me to search for ...
  541. Zash and find http://urbanpolicy.berkeley.edu/pdf/AQWJEG0804PB.pdf
  542. zinid btw, today I noticed that my xmpp domain was suspended (I forgot to pay for it). It's becoming quite annoying to self-host even if you have the needed qualification.
  543. Link Mauve That has happened so many times to me. >_<
  544. zinid The DNS Mafia!
  545. Nekit has left
  546. Ge0rG zinid: it always was an extortion business, but with the buy your own TLD for $$$ business, it became unbearable.
  547. Ge0rG We need an alternative DNS root!
  548. Ge0rG I propose the XSF.
  549. zinid right after the CA!
  550. zinid after me please
  551. Ge0rG Also DNS-over-XMPP!
  552. zinid we wanted to buy process.one and guess what? It's $8000 per year. Tell me about CA mafia now 😛
  553. zinid oh, it's still free, no surprise
  554. moparisthebest Ge0rG, why not cloudflare does it literally every other possible way https://developers.cloudflare.com/
  555. moparisthebest it would avoid the TLS setup cost, should be pretty performant actually
  556. Ge0rG moparisthebest: that list is missing XMPP.
  557. j.r has left
  558. pep. Ge0rG, add that to the missing integrations page :p
  559. Ge0rG I wonder if SamWhited knows somebody who can be convinced to make it happen
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  561. moparisthebest it should be pretty easy to make a component to do that, hmmmm
  562. moparisthebest great I needed another useless project
  563. pep. If you want I have a whole list I can share with you
  564. zinid the list of useless things?
  565. pep. If you can do some of these for me
  566. moparisthebest I already have a whole list of my own thanks
  567. pep. zinid, useless and not useless. Often the line is pretty thin :P
  568. moparisthebest if I create a xmpp component to answer DNS queries, and add support to a DNS proxy to use it, will anyone in here use it ? :P
  569. Zash moparisthebest: Aware of any DNS client libraries that let you easily feed them data without it coming from the network?
  570. Zash If so, give me BASE64'd DNSSEC-signed blobs plz!
  571. Zash But then, what problem are you solving?
  572. moparisthebest I was not aware of one so I wrote one https://github.com/moparisthebest/jDnsProxy it would be easy to, using that, write a xmpp component to answer them, and a resolver to ask said xmpp component :)
  573. moparisthebest same problem DNS-over-HTTPS and DNS-over-TLS is solving I guess?
  574. moparisthebest maybe faster though, if the S2S stream is already established
  575. Ge0rG Please make a bot that runs `dig $message_content` and responds with the stdout+stderr content.
  576. Zash :D
  577. Ge0rG I promise not to do evil. Not too much at least.
  578. jonas’ 17:24:55 Vlatin Pudimir> !dig SRV _xmpp-server._tcp.muc.xmpp.org 17:24:56 foorl> _xmpp-server._tcp.muc.xmpp.org (SRV): 1 1 9269 xmpp.xmpp.org.
  579. Zash moparisthebest: It won't help clients do initial connections tho, where we have actual problems still.
  580. Ge0rG jonas’: now all we need to do is to host that bot as a component on
  581. Zash I'm sure Ge0rG can tell us (or already did?) how many fail at SRV lookups
  582. Ge0rG can you have SRV records for IP addresses?
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  585. moparisthebest Zash, it will if the resolvers are set up to use it, like my router is
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  587. Zash Routers that don't support SRV lookups but they'll support DNS-over-XMPP?
  588. Ge0rG Wow, my ISP fixed their resolver. It's not servfailing after 3s any more.
  589. moparisthebest but wire-format-wise it'd just be like DOH, base64'd raw TCP request bytes
  590. moparisthebest Zash, yea honestly endpoints will end up using DOH etc first before all the routers get fixed, android phones already do DNS-over-TLS to google by default now
  591. moparisthebest firefox also can or does
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  606. Wiktor Dns over xmpp sounds like a perfect April 1st XEP folks
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  608. jonas’ better than jackbeer?
  609. moparisthebest how about this, if I can write the code to get a working POC in the next, 2 weeks max, will someone else commit to writing the XEP :D Wiktor ? :)
  610. zinid moparisthebest, the XEP for April 1st you mean?
  611. moparisthebest yea
  612. zinid not sure if trolling
  613. zinid ah
  614. Ge0rG moparisthebest: are you going to map all DNS payloads to XML elements?
  615. moparisthebest hell no, down that path only lies tears
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  617. Ge0rG tears of joy!
  618. moparisthebest it'll be just like DOH, base64 raw DNS packet bytes
  619. Ge0rG 😂
  620. Wiktor moparisthebest: 👍
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  622. moparisthebest call it DOX ?
  623. Ge0rG moparisthebest: that's not XMPP style.
  624. Wiktor Then we get cloud flare in the loop
  625. moparisthebest it's not HTTP style either yet here we are
  626. Ge0rG moparisthebest: if you do that, you can as well just run jonas’' SRV bot.
  627. Wiktor They'd like the April joke I bet haha
  628. moparisthebest Ge0rG, no it'd be actually useful, because you'd have a UDP/TCP DNS port locally you can query, put in resolv.conf or whatever, except it's just connected to an XMPP server to resolve names
  629. moparisthebest for, some definition of useful :P
  630. rtq3 has joined
  631. Wiktor wait a minute, Ge0rG was complaining about his ISP failing DNS queries... if only he had DNS-over-XMPP!
  632. moparisthebest he soon will!
  633. uhoreg There's already DNS over HTTPS and HTTP over XMPP, so if you chain them together, then you can easily get DNS over XMPP
  634. moparisthebest so... what's the latest/greatest java xmpp library for clients nowadays...
  635. Ge0rG uhoreg: that sounds like there is no need for an own XEP
  636. Ge0rG moparisthebest: sed
  637. zinid oh, I finally finished reading that "federation sucks" article
  638. zinid great ending: > To see the future of liberty for the many, look not to the obscurity of XMPP, for arcane technical voodoo can never be wielded by those who need it most. To see the free future, look to Wikipedia.
  639. flow re council@: I think it is a terrible idea if we start to omit namespace bumps on experimental XEPs. That will only lead to confusion and a bad reputation wrt. XMPP's interoperability
  640. wurstsalat has joined
  641. zinid flow, so, after the publication of my XEPs I now need to bump the namespaces after every second PR? nowaaaay
  642. zinid however, not that I'm against that much
  643. flow zinid, that I why I am in favor of an "incubating" state of XEPs, where they got an stable identifier and a clearly visibile notice that there may be no namespace bumps on backwards incompatible changes
  644. zinid flow, if you incubate too much how they will become visible?
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  646. Ge0rG flow: that's called "Experimental"
  647. flow Ge0rG, I hope not
  648. zinid whatever, I'm not against at bumping the namespace at every commit, I know sed!
  649. flow I see people starting to implement XEPs and then wondering why their implementation does not interoperate with another one
  650. Ge0rG Namespace bumping is one of the worst ways to iterate protocols.
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  653. flow Ge0rG, I think you mean backwards incompatible changes are the worst way to iterate protocols
  654. zinid flow, but when you implement IETF I-D you don't wonder?
  655. Ge0rG Unless it is a major rewrite, protocols should come with feature tags.
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  657. flow but sometimes they can not be avoided, but in this case you need a namespace bump
  658. flow at least for my definition of backwards incompatible change
  659. flow zinid, exactly
  660. flow probably because an ID has not RFC number
  661. zinid flow, I kinda agree that we need a concept of a "living standard" and "final"
  662. zinid everything in between should be burnt with fire
  663. flow but an experimental XEP has an XEP number
  664. zinid I honestly prefer numbers, it's easier to reference them
  665. flow it may appear as a small difference but I think it has an huge impact on how people perceive the standard
  666. flow zinid, as soon as the thing is out of the incubating state, give it a number
  667. zinid XEP-DRAFT-0123
  668. zinid DER-0123!
  669. flow or, even much better, a short name
  670. flow I never understood why we use numbers when humans are much better with letters
  671. Ge0rG flow: let's namespace-bump MUC and see what happens?
  672. flow I already memorized the short names of zinids new XEPs, and have a idea what is behind every name
  673. flow I doubt I would have been able to memorize it if they where assigned a number on submission
  674. zinid flow, my next xep will have a terrible name, I cannot invent it
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  733. wurstsalat Should the upcoming sprint be announced on xmpp.org ?
  734. Zash Yes
  735. lumi has left
  736. zinid summit, fosdem, sprint
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