XSF Discussion - 2019-03-06

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  92. zinid

    can someone point me where in the RFCs it's said that a client must ignore 'to' of incoming stanzas?

  93. zinid

    I might be blind, cannot find it

  94. zinid

    ah, found

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  96. flow

    zinid, where?

  97. flow

    I only had https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6120#section- in mind

  98. zinid

    yes, it is

  99. zinid

    there is no need for the client to check the 'to' address of incoming stanzas. However, if the client does check the 'to' address then it is suggested to check at most the bare JID portion (not the full JID), since the 'to' address might be the user's bare JID, the client's current full JID, or even a full JID with a different resourcepart

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  101. flow

    that is not really "most ignore", isn't it? ;)

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  104. zinid

    sorry for not being exactly precise in this bureacratic chatroom!

  105. Ge0rG

    I'm currently challenged by "check whether the user has finished entering a JID yet". The current naive version just lets the server hammer DNS and s2s...

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  108. Ge0rG


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  110. waqas

    Ge0rG: I don't think I've ever had say an email client attempt that… why check for valid JIDs that way?

  111. Ge0rG

    waqas: I hope for better usability. First I was going to filter based on the public suffix list, but then I realized it's huge, complicated and messy, and it doesn't support local deployments

  112. waqas

    "it doesn't support local deployments" — wat? browsers do embed it, and tend to work locally...

  113. Ge0rG

    waqas: I mean it won't accept "mycoolxmpp.local"

  114. waqas

    If you want local stuff, well "helloworld" is a valid local hostname

  115. Ge0rG

    Also I'd have to either embed an immediately outdated list or load it at runtime periodically.

  116. Ge0rG

    waqas: that's exactly my point

  117. waqas

    I'm struggling to see the usability goal. What are you trying to solve for?

  118. waqas

    People mistyping hostname?

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  121. Ge0rG

    Giving people a way to explore xmpp? Dunno

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  123. waqas

    I wonder if there's a use-case for a directory of all publicly accessible XMPP servers

  124. Ge0rG

    It would be a good thing for auto completion.

  125. zinid

    > Giving people a way to explore xmpp? That's not needed

  126. Ge0rG

    > Giving people a way to explore MQTT?

  127. Wiktor

    For me the demo looked good 👍 I'd use that.

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  131. jonas’

    Ge0rG, maybe add an explicit search button and prepare to integrate it with Jabber Search

  132. Ge0rG

    jonas’: it'a already integrated, you just need to open the lower group

  133. Ge0rG

    I'm still not sure about "have all ways to add JIDs in one dialog" vs "omg what is all this shit"

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  135. jonas’

    Jabber Search is not muclumbus

  136. Ge0rG

    Wait. What's Jabber Search then?

  137. jonas’

    XEP something

  138. Ge0rG

    something something.

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  140. jonas’

    I don’t know it off the top of my head, you’ll find it in the XEP list, I’m at work

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  180. zinid

    Ge0rG, you asked: http://upload.zinid.ru/xep-eax-csr.html

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  206. Kev

    Is slixmpp now the only maintained fork of sleek?

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  220. pep.

    Kev, are there any others?

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  224. Kev

    That's what I was asking.

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  228. pep.

    No you're asking if slixmpp is the only one :p

  229. pep.

    I know only of slixmpp

  230. pep.

    Link Mauve, ^

  231. Link Mauve

    That’s the only one I know of.

  232. Link Mauve

    And I’d really like to merge both projects, the only thing SleekXMPP has got for it is its python2 support, and that is getting EoL’d quick.

  233. Link Mauve

    SleekXMPP still seems pretty popular, so if we could just reuse the name and the website and rename the next slixmpp version that, it’d be perfect.

  234. flow

    Ge0rG, https://github.com/Flowdalic/android-xmpp-iot-demo/blob/master/app/src/main/java/com/clayster/xmppiotdemo/JidTextWatcher.java#L61 is what I did a while ago

  235. flow

    regarding user provided jid string verification

  236. Ge0rG

    flow: yeah, but I also need it to work on domain JIDs, and this is somewhat harder ;)

  237. Ge0rG

    flow: did you see last night's yaxim video?

  238. flow

    Ge0rG, no

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  240. Ge0rG

    flow: what I'm essentially looking for is "does the whole string / what comes after an @ qualify as a domain part"

  241. Ge0rG


  242. Ge0rG

    flow: ^

  243. Wiktor

    Ge0rG: can't you just cheat somehow? I dont know... Fire dns srv queries on the client?... :)

  244. Ge0rG

    Wiktor: my ISP is already serving ServFail to SRV requests... with a 3s delay.

  245. Ge0rG

    Sending a disco#info is actually the least work for me.

  246. Wiktor

    Dns over HTTPS! For every problem I've got two solutions a.k.a "next problems"

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  248. Wiktor

    for faster access better grab a local client index of all jabber domains, as TLS certs are now logged in Certificate Transparency logs the list is there... but it would take a lot of space... so use bloom filters, see, easy! ;-)

  249. Wiktor

    no, I just got a better, CaaS - Completion as a Service, you send a query and it autocompletes the domain part, then you can start offering it to others for a small fee... it's an unmet need right there :)

  250. flow

    Ge0rG, the "what comes after the @ qualify as domain part" check is what the code I linked does

  251. flow

    plus, does the string before the @ qualify as localpart

  252. Ge0rG

    flow: it only checks whether what's between @ and / is non-empty.

  253. flow

    Ge0rG, I don't think so

  254. Ge0rG

    Wiktor: https://foaas.com/greed/cloud/Ge0rG 😁

  255. Wiktor

    Wow, great... 👍

  256. Ge0rG

    flow: it calls JidUtil.isValidEntityBareJid() which splits and calls XmppStringUtils.parseDomain() which just splits, and then checks the length.

  257. Ge0rG

    flow: unless you added magic in smack 4.4

  258. Ge0rG

    or rather, jxmpp 0.6.4

  259. flow

    Ge0rG, hmm, no?

  260. flow

    you possibly missed that line: https://github.com/igniterealtime/jxmpp/blob/0.6/jxmpp-jid/src/main/java/org/jxmpp/jid/util/JidUtil.java#L140

  261. Ge0rG

    flow: ah, right, it goes down into Domainpart.from() which also ensures domainprep.

  262. Ge0rG

    but I'm not sure how much that actually adds.

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  267. Ge0rG

    flow: or, in other words, does it add any value over attempting to JidCreate.from(string)?

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  270. Ge0rG is also interested in feedback on the search UX

  271. zinid

    btw, great twitter (uh!) thread what people thinking about XMPP: https://twitter.com/bascule/status/1102693889842921472 😀

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  277. flow

    Ge0rG, it does. It ensures that there is a "valid" localpart and domainpart, and no resourcepart, and provides better feedback about what is missing for the string to become a valid JID

  278. Ge0rG

    flow: but I'm hiding the error anyway, at least in the last version ;)

  279. Ge0rG

    https://twitter.com/DLitz/status/1102961301616156676 🤣🤣🤣

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  281. zinid

    Ge0rG, wut?

  282. zinid

    I actually replied to this

  283. dwd

    Has anyone got a server-side implementation of MIX-PAM (XEP-0405) anywhere?

  284. Ge0rG

    zinid: yeah, saw that a bit later. Master trolling at work.

  285. zinid

    dwd, I have

  286. zinid

    dwd, part of ejabberd 19.02 actually

  287. Ge0rG

    Damn android single tasking. If I open Twitter links from yaxim, then use yaxim, the Twitter client forgets what I was looking at.

  288. zinid

    Ge0rG, yeah, that's annoying AF

  289. zinid

    Ge0rG, and btw I didn't mean to troll, but whatever

  290. Ge0rG

    zinid: not speaking of you! 😀

  291. zinid

    oh, really, I'm impressed

  292. zinid

    yeah, that dude just goes full strawman hoping from subject to subject

  293. zinid

    and gains a ton of likes because, well, XMPP is godawful

  294. dwd

    zinid, Oh, really? That's awesome. I'll check it out.

  295. zinid

    dwd, I can create you an account at my server, I'm running mix pam there

  296. dwd

    zinid, Is it a module? And is it available (open source, downloadable, whatever)?

  297. zinid

    dwd, yes, it's a module (actually two) and is a part of ejabberd distribution

  298. Ge0rG

    While that thread is actually rather sad, it's showing Twitter at its best. You can try to convince them, or try to insult them, but it's not going to change anything.

  299. dwd

    zinid, Do you have any clients or MIX servers that use it?

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  302. dwd

    Oh, wow. Found a client library that supports MIX, and claims to have a GUI client. (Which is an example only - I've not attempted to see if it has a MIX UI yet).

  303. pep.

    dwd, slixmpp has OMEMO, Jingle, and MAM support (I think?), poezio has none of that :P

  304. zinid

    dwd: no I don't, Daniel has some experimental branch of Conversations though, we tested our implementations

  305. dwd

    zinid, https://github.com/qxmpp-project/qxmpp might work, I have no clue.

  306. dwd

    pep., Yeah, the MAM is handy, and the '60, but no MIX. I might have to fix that.

  307. zinid

    Ge0rG: true, they have already set up their minds, and I am not sure this is actually attributed to Twitter

  308. pep.

    Heh, qxmpp, is that what the telepathy people starting to use?

  309. pep.

    for telepathy-nonsense?

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  311. zinid

    Ge0rG: this is just blatant IT hype and groupthinking

  312. Ge0rG

    zinid: twitter is known for this kind of toxicity. It's also a good place for short, "state-less" rants making it impossible to have a proper debate based on merit

  313. Ge0rG

    it's like XMPP! 😁

  314. zinid

    Ge0rG: well you can debate at other more appropriate place, but you can do nothing when you're told that XML is shit (which is I agree BTW)

  315. zinid

    and every xmpp discussion ends up there

  316. Ge0rG

    zinid: I agree with that too, and I'd love to see them solving extensibility on top of JSON :>

  317. Ge0rG

    But they can't.

  318. zinid

    Ge0rG: you can do that in asn.1 😁

  319. zinid

    oids ftw!

  320. Ge0rG

    Anyway, with Matrix we do have the anti-design to XMPP. Monolithic spec instead of modular, JSON instead of XML, persistent message database instead of a stream of ephemeral events. Let's wait five years and see what sticks.

  321. dwd

    Extensibility is easy in JSON. Permissionless extensibility is somewhat harder.

  322. jonas’

    zinid, mmm, OIDs, which you can only allocate with a bureaucratic process which doesn’t even work?

  323. zinid

    yeah, sticks where?

  324. zinid

    jonas’: why doesn't it work? last time we registered oids in iana

  325. zinid

    in 2004 😂

  326. dwd

    But my usual argument about XMPP and XML is that we don't use XML like SOAP - instead, it's very terse XML and pragmatically-driven, so while it's still XML, it's vastly nicer than what they may have experienced before.

  327. Andrew Nenakhov

    > persistent message database instead of a stream of ephemeral events. That one is actually good

  328. dwd

    Sorta - you can record a stream, but you can't make a persistent database ephemeral.

  329. zinid

    dwd: yeah, but I'd love to see those arguments spelled at public, not in this chat where everyone is already converted 😁

  330. dwd

    zinid, For sure.

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  332. dwd

    zinid, Also, the "Nobody uses XMPP" thing, except for half the games industry, military, government, and so on.

  333. zinid

    also, though xml is not, let's say, ideal, it's not as fatal as opponent trying to draw it

  334. zinid

    also, though xml is not, let's say, ideal, it's not as fatal as opponents trying to draw it

  335. zinid

    it's just not ideal, indeed

  336. Ge0rG

    Indeed. There are larger problems in XMPP. Maybe we should tell them about the mess that is MUC, Carbons and message routing (which are just my favorite pet problems)

  337. Andrew Nenakhov

    But but it's confusing! 😂

  338. zinid

    > That one is actually good Andrew Nenakhov: agreed

  339. Seve

    pep., qxmpp is what Kaidan is using if I recall correctly, lnj?

  340. zinid

    Ge0rG: we can say that of course, but they won't even understand those problem may exist, because designing protocols is easy

  341. zinid

    you just need to stick to json and http!

  342. zinid

    > That one is actually good although seems like the design is awful, looking at how their servers behaves

  343. Ge0rG

    zinid: implement matrix protocol in ejabberd! 😁😁

  344. zinid

    and you probably cannot make such type of replication terribly efficient, so matrix will be always slower than xmpp by design

  345. zinid

    Ge0rG: we considered that a few years ago and I had the discussion about it a few *days* ago with the boss

  346. zinid

    the conclusion is "this will require too much effort, let's wait if matrix demonstrate some real progress except hype"

  347. zinid

    5 years have passed and where is the progress?

  348. Zash

    What's 'this'?

  349. zinid

    Zash: implementing matrix in ejabberd

  350. zinid

    note that after 5 years of evolving of xmpp we had several servers and clients and rfcs

  351. Zash

    Implementing the c2s protocol is probably doable, then we can steal all their clients. ;)

  352. Zash

    The s2s protocol .. yeah, no.

  353. zinid

    Zash: doable of course, but requires full time commitment and we are currently limited in human resources at p1

  354. pep.

    s/ at p1//

  355. zinid

    mqtt and sip were much easier to implement

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  357. zinid

    also, the only attractive part of the protocol is replication, everything else is terrible, they reiterate the mistakes of xmpp

  358. zinid

    and I personally rather disappointed in federation and looking at P2P

  359. Zash

    Doesn't MQTT provide way less functionality than what XMPP-Core does?

  360. Zash

    It seems weird to me to compare MQTT to XMPP

  361. zinid

    Zash: sure, mqtt is very dumb

  362. zinid

    Zash: you cannot compare them

  363. zinid

    I don't understand why people do that all the time

  364. Andrew Nenakhov

    I personally don't think that full p2p will have great UX

  365. zinid

    Andrew Nenakhov: not full

  366. zinid

    I could say here wait for me to complete my xor proposal, but seems like nobody reads them 😂

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  369. zinid

    Zash: did you read the matrix s2s spec BTW? Is it finalized?

  370. Zash

    zinid: Not really and not really.

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  373. zinid

    ok, let's wait 5 more years

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  377. zinid

    > Also, the "Nobody uses XMPP" thing, except for half the games industry, military, government, and so on. dwd: oh, just saw it. yeah, virtually every second our customer is gamedev, hehe. xmpp is quite strong there.

  378. zinid

    and again, also the reason I consider MIX: group chats in gamedev is hell, thousands of participants

  379. Andrew Nenakhov

    Our Groupchats should probably handle that well and quite easy to implement

  380. zinid

    Andrew Nenakhov: 😉

  381. Ge0rG

    zinid: it would be really great to have testimonials from them about XMPP

  382. Ge0rG

    zinid: or maybe at least contact people to interview, cc winfried

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  384. zinid

    Ge0rG: hum, let me explain how their development is done: they hire some developers (usually from India) and assign them to work with us. their project managers are almost clueless and their bosses are totally clueless. so the question is whom to ask? that developer from India?

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  387. zinid

    chat infrastructure is actually a huge pain for gamedev they offload the work because that's not their area of competence

  388. Ge0rG

    zinid: good point. Is there some kind of in-house senior tech project manager?

  389. zinid

    so it's just like to ask you to promote that cool Japan engine in your murican car.

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  392. zinid

    Ge0rG: I don't contact them, so I am also not the right person to ask, sorry

  393. zinid

    and thanks gods I don't 😁

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  395. Ge0rG


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  482. lnj

    > pep., qxmpp is what Kaidan is using if I recall correctly, lnj? Yes, that's right and I'm working on the MIX implementation in QXmpp. It's not completely finished though and most of the pull requests haven't been merged yet.

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  491. jonas’

    zinid, I assigned XEP-0415 to XOR and XEP-0416 to EAX

  492. jonas’

    push is done, waiting for the build to happen, so ETA 1h or so

  493. zinid

    jonas’, thanks a lot

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  497. zinid


  498. pep.

    zinid, #old, I linked that yesterday :p

  499. Andrew Nenakhov

    It was here a couple of days ago

  500. zinid


  501. zinid

    sorry guys, I'm too slow

  502. pep.

    https://lwn.net/Articles/781205/ comments

  503. zinid

    oh, good start: they attacked the author's graphs!

  504. Zash

    Don't read the comments

  505. zinid

    is it Dirac, power-law or loglog distribution? hum... so many questions

  506. oli has joined

  507. Andrew Nenakhov

    That funny article failed to address the most famous federated protocol: email

  508. jmpman has joined

  509. pep.

    No it did

  510. pep.

    You probably missed some points

  511. Ge0rG

    stop throwing links! I need to work still.

  512. Zash

    The part about how gmail has 100% of the market and self-hosting is impossible?

  513. zinid

    Ge0rG, I just copied it! You should have read it already

  514. Andrew Nenakhov

    pep., It didn't provide any graphs for email, I mean

  515. pep.

    Zash, I'm not saying I agree with all she's saying

  516. Ge0rG

    zinid: it's right behind your CA proto-XEP, but it will move up if you keep talking about it

  517. zinid

    Ge0rG, I shut up, carry on

  518. zinid

    nah, just joking, I cannot shut up

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  520. Andrew Nenakhov

    Just claim that 'most people have email on Gmail', but what about outlook, Yahoo, mail.ru, hundreds of them noticeable big servers

  521. zinid

    Andrew Nenakhov, still power-law distribution

  522. Andrew Nenakhov

    Yes, but: not sharp and with plenty other choices.

  523. zinid

    I already have brought an article somewhere from 2001 where the same thesis about federation was spelled

  524. pep.

    zinid, I'm interested if you can find it again, but don't bother if it's too much of a hassle

  525. moparisthebest

    they are all basically the same "federation doesn't solve all problems" ok, agreed, also the sky is blue and water is wet, why the long blog post?

  526. Andrew Nenakhov

    Funny thing is, what do they offer as an alternative?

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  528. Zash


  529. Zash


  530. Andrew Nenakhov

    Centralized services, 'because federations are centralized anyway'?

  531. Ge0rG


  532. zinid

    pep., http://shirky.com/writings/powerlaw_weblog.html

  533. zinid

    pep., from 2003, sorry!

  534. lovetox has joined

  535. zinid

    > In systems where many people are free to choose between many options, a small subset of the whole will get a disproportionate amount of traffic (or attention, or income), even if no members of the system actively work towards such an outcome. The very act of choosing, spread widely enough and freely enough, creates a power law distribution

  536. pep.


  537. zinid

    so predicted 20 years ago

  538. zinid

    Andrew Nenakhov, centralization is a bad solution obviously

  539. zinid

    it has the same drawbacks plus others

  540. Zash

    That reminds me to search for ...

  541. Zash

    and find http://urbanpolicy.berkeley.edu/pdf/AQWJEG0804PB.pdf

  542. zinid

    btw, today I noticed that my xmpp domain was suspended (I forgot to pay for it). It's becoming quite annoying to self-host even if you have the needed qualification.

  543. Link Mauve

    That has happened so many times to me. >_<

  544. zinid

    The DNS Mafia!

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  546. Ge0rG

    zinid: it always was an extortion business, but with the buy your own TLD for $$$ business, it became unbearable.

  547. Ge0rG

    We need an alternative DNS root!

  548. Ge0rG

    I propose the XSF.

  549. zinid

    right after the CA!

  550. zinid

    after me please

  551. Ge0rG

    Also DNS-over-XMPP!

  552. zinid

    we wanted to buy process.one and guess what? It's $8000 per year. Tell me about CA mafia now 😛

  553. zinid

    oh, it's still free, no surprise

  554. moparisthebest

    Ge0rG, why not cloudflare does it literally every other possible way https://developers.cloudflare.com/

  555. moparisthebest

    it would avoid the TLS setup cost, should be pretty performant actually

  556. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: that list is missing XMPP.

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  558. pep.

    Ge0rG, add that to the missing integrations page :p

  559. Ge0rG

    I wonder if SamWhited knows somebody who can be convinced to make it happen

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  561. moparisthebest

    it should be pretty easy to make a component to do that, hmmmm

  562. moparisthebest

    great I needed another useless project

  563. pep.

    If you want I have a whole list I can share with you

  564. zinid

    the list of useless things?

  565. pep.

    If you can do some of these for me

  566. moparisthebest

    I already have a whole list of my own thanks

  567. pep.

    zinid, useless and not useless. Often the line is pretty thin :P

  568. moparisthebest

    if I create a xmpp component to answer DNS queries, and add support to a DNS proxy to use it, will anyone in here use it ? :P

  569. Zash

    moparisthebest: Aware of any DNS client libraries that let you easily feed them data without it coming from the network?

  570. Zash

    If so, give me BASE64'd DNSSEC-signed blobs plz!

  571. Zash

    But then, what problem are you solving?

  572. moparisthebest

    I was not aware of one so I wrote one https://github.com/moparisthebest/jDnsProxy it would be easy to, using that, write a xmpp component to answer them, and a resolver to ask said xmpp component :)

  573. moparisthebest

    same problem DNS-over-HTTPS and DNS-over-TLS is solving I guess?

  574. moparisthebest

    maybe faster though, if the S2S stream is already established

  575. Ge0rG

    Please make a bot that runs `dig $message_content` and responds with the stdout+stderr content.

  576. Zash


  577. Ge0rG

    I promise not to do evil. Not too much at least.

  578. jonas’

    17:24:55 Vlatin Pudimir> !dig SRV _xmpp-server._tcp.muc.xmpp.org 17:24:56 foorl> _xmpp-server._tcp.muc.xmpp.org (SRV): 1 1 9269 xmpp.xmpp.org.

  579. Zash

    moparisthebest: It won't help clients do initial connections tho, where we have actual problems still.

  580. Ge0rG

    jonas’: now all we need to do is to host that bot as a component on

  581. Zash

    I'm sure Ge0rG can tell us (or already did?) how many fail at SRV lookups

  582. Ge0rG

    can you have SRV records for IP addresses?

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  585. moparisthebest

    Zash, it will if the resolvers are set up to use it, like my router is

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  587. Zash

    Routers that don't support SRV lookups but they'll support DNS-over-XMPP?

  588. Ge0rG

    Wow, my ISP fixed their resolver. It's not servfailing after 3s any more.

  589. moparisthebest

    but wire-format-wise it'd just be like DOH, base64'd raw TCP request bytes

  590. moparisthebest

    Zash, yea honestly endpoints will end up using DOH etc first before all the routers get fixed, android phones already do DNS-over-TLS to google by default now

  591. moparisthebest

    firefox also can or does

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  606. Wiktor

    Dns over xmpp sounds like a perfect April 1st XEP folks

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  608. jonas’

    better than jackbeer?

  609. moparisthebest

    how about this, if I can write the code to get a working POC in the next, 2 weeks max, will someone else commit to writing the XEP :D Wiktor ? :)

  610. zinid

    moparisthebest, the XEP for April 1st you mean?

  611. moparisthebest


  612. zinid

    not sure if trolling

  613. zinid


  614. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: are you going to map all DNS payloads to XML elements?

  615. moparisthebest

    hell no, down that path only lies tears

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  617. Ge0rG

    tears of joy!

  618. moparisthebest

    it'll be just like DOH, base64 raw DNS packet bytes

  619. Ge0rG


  620. Wiktor

    moparisthebest: 👍

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  622. moparisthebest

    call it DOX ?

  623. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: that's not XMPP style.

  624. Wiktor

    Then we get cloud flare in the loop

  625. moparisthebest

    it's not HTTP style either yet here we are

  626. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: if you do that, you can as well just run jonas’' SRV bot.

  627. Wiktor

    They'd like the April joke I bet haha

  628. moparisthebest

    Ge0rG, no it'd be actually useful, because you'd have a UDP/TCP DNS port locally you can query, put in resolv.conf or whatever, except it's just connected to an XMPP server to resolve names

  629. moparisthebest

    for, some definition of useful :P

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  631. Wiktor

    wait a minute, Ge0rG was complaining about his ISP failing DNS queries... if only he had DNS-over-XMPP!

  632. moparisthebest

    he soon will!

  633. uhoreg

    There's already DNS over HTTPS and HTTP over XMPP, so if you chain them together, then you can easily get DNS over XMPP

  634. moparisthebest

    so... what's the latest/greatest java xmpp library for clients nowadays...

  635. Ge0rG

    uhoreg: that sounds like there is no need for an own XEP

  636. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: sed

  637. zinid

    oh, I finally finished reading that "federation sucks" article

  638. zinid

    great ending: > To see the future of liberty for the many, look not to the obscurity of XMPP, for arcane technical voodoo can never be wielded by those who need it most. To see the free future, look to Wikipedia.

  639. flow

    re council@: I think it is a terrible idea if we start to omit namespace bumps on experimental XEPs. That will only lead to confusion and a bad reputation wrt. XMPP's interoperability

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  641. zinid

    flow, so, after the publication of my XEPs I now need to bump the namespaces after every second PR? nowaaaay

  642. zinid

    however, not that I'm against that much

  643. flow

    zinid, that I why I am in favor of an "incubating" state of XEPs, where they got an stable identifier and a clearly visibile notice that there may be no namespace bumps on backwards incompatible changes

  644. zinid

    flow, if you incubate too much how they will become visible?

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  646. Ge0rG

    flow: that's called "Experimental"

  647. flow

    Ge0rG, I hope not

  648. zinid

    whatever, I'm not against at bumping the namespace at every commit, I know sed!

  649. flow

    I see people starting to implement XEPs and then wondering why their implementation does not interoperate with another one

  650. Ge0rG

    Namespace bumping is one of the worst ways to iterate protocols.

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  653. flow

    Ge0rG, I think you mean backwards incompatible changes are the worst way to iterate protocols

  654. zinid

    flow, but when you implement IETF I-D you don't wonder?

  655. Ge0rG

    Unless it is a major rewrite, protocols should come with feature tags.

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  657. flow

    but sometimes they can not be avoided, but in this case you need a namespace bump

  658. flow

    at least for my definition of backwards incompatible change

  659. flow

    zinid, exactly

  660. flow

    probably because an ID has not RFC number

  661. zinid

    flow, I kinda agree that we need a concept of a "living standard" and "final"

  662. zinid

    everything in between should be burnt with fire

  663. flow

    but an experimental XEP has an XEP number

  664. zinid

    I honestly prefer numbers, it's easier to reference them

  665. flow

    it may appear as a small difference but I think it has an huge impact on how people perceive the standard

  666. flow

    zinid, as soon as the thing is out of the incubating state, give it a number

  667. zinid


  668. zinid


  669. flow

    or, even much better, a short name

  670. flow

    I never understood why we use numbers when humans are much better with letters

  671. Ge0rG

    flow: let's namespace-bump MUC and see what happens?

  672. flow

    I already memorized the short names of zinids new XEPs, and have a idea what is behind every name

  673. flow

    I doubt I would have been able to memorize it if they where assigned a number on submission

  674. zinid

    flow, my next xep will have a terrible name, I cannot invent it

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  733. wurstsalat

    Should the upcoming sprint be announced on xmpp.org ?

  734. Zash


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  736. zinid

    summit, fosdem, sprint

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