XSF Discussion - 2019-03-08

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  56. moparisthebest Wiktor, anyone else interested, code is up https://github.com/moparisthebest/jDnsProxy/blob/dox/dox.md
  57. moparisthebest also I have it running at dns@moparisthebest.com/listener if anyone wants to query some DNS over XMPP
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  86. Link Mauve “20:04:36 flow> I never understood why we use numbers when humans are much better with letters”, Western* humans, just ask a random Chinese person to remember letters instead of numbers and you’ll have a bad time.
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  88. Ge0rG Link Mauve: not even if those letters are abbreviations of the subject matter name?
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  90. Link Mauve AIUI, even then.
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  103. flow Link Mauve, TIL. But is that an argument that we shouldn't use short names instead of numbers?
  104. Zash But, we do have short names
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  109. flow that nobody uses
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  111. flow that makes the situation even more ironic, we have them, I hope they are supposed to be short and unique, and still we use additinally numbers
  112. Zash But IIRC they get assigned at Draft or something
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  118. wurstsalat > wurstsalat: it is already? pep., I meant on the xmpp.org frontpage, with a banner?
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  123. pep. Ah you want the fancy banner :p
  124. pep. If you come up with the CSS for it I assume somebody will accept it
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  133. wurstsalat pep., still no computer access for me until end of march, sorry. next time it will be a PR ;)
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  170. jonas’ flow, the numbers can be uniquely searched for, the short names may be so short that they occur in other words
  171. jonas’ so using the numbers is much better for searchability
  172. jonas’ at least that’s my rationale for using them in the ML subject and in rooms
  173. flow jonas’, XEP-SM?
  174. jonas’ then we can never have XEP-SMART
  176. jonas’ and what about avatars
  177. jonas’ or bookmarks
  178. flow I immeditaly will know what XEP-FMUC is about, can you tell me the FMUC number from the top of your head?
  180. jonas’ no, since I never cared about FMUC
  181. flow jonas’, right, but it doesn't make the situation worser
  182. jonas’ the others I use I typically know, but I’m a number person
  183. flow also XEP-CAPS, and XEP-CAPS2 works pretty well for me
  184. jonas’ then you can’t search for the old caps only
  185. jonas’ you’ll always get both
  186. flow I think I could live with that
  187. jonas’ not much more frustrating than having inaccurate search results and not being able to do anything about it
  188. flow it would be even better if we could tag threads and messages of the ML with unique xep tags for searching, but that is a different discussion
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  191. jonas’ I agree
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  197. zinid > Western* humans, just ask a random Chinese person to remember letters instead of numbers and you’ll have a bad time who cares, there is already a ton of language discrimination 🙂 It's even more sharp when your native alphabet is not latin
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  199. zinid this stringprep crap for example, not every language has a problem with character cases, and this shit is built into the protocol, permanently consuming resources at the servers
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  206. Ge0rG ZİNİD!
  207. Ge0rG The obvious solution is to use XEP Emoji Shortnames.
  208. Ge0rG I would like to propose a minor change to XEP<FacePalm><Male><Fitzpatrick-Modifier-3><ZeroWidthJoin><Regional-Indicator-Letter-Ф>
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  211. Zash User was banned for this crime against sanity
  212. Guus +1
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  228. dwd FWIW, I think we often do refer to protocols by name, and not number. We refer to the documents by number for precision, but there's only a handful that are routinely referred to by number (198, for example). Most of the time we talk about MUC, or vCards, or whatever.
  229. Ge0rG does "MUC" also include all the undocumented quirks that are not part of 0045? 😁
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  231. MattJ Ge0rG, fancy documenting those?
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  233. Zash What undocumented quirks are there? I can think of the vCard hack and MSN
  234. Ge0rG MattJ: MSN is the most prominent example. I think *somebody* started a wiki page on it, but then it was widely ignored by the people who know the most about their respective implementations.
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  236. Zash Was that among the losses in the great server crash?
  237. Zash Was that page among the losses in the great server crash?
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  239. Ge0rG Zash: no
  240. Ge0rG At least I don't think so
  241. Zash I think I started writing a sentence about the vcard hack but git ate it, probably when I looked at GC 1.0 removal
  242. Zash Hah, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0089.html
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  245. Zash What was the conclusion of looking at an old XEP each week?
  246. dwd Zash, Everyone thought that someone else should definitely do that?
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  248. Zash Let's talk about XEP-XXXX: Tragedy of the Commons
  249. dwd Have we changed to roman numerals?
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  253. pep. What do people think about this: https://lab.louiz.org/poezio/poezio/issues/3462 ? poezio bug: "LMC replaces the whole stanza"
  254. Guus pep. given that we're already in a situation where both approaches exist, an implementation note that warns to expect both methods might be good.
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  262. Kev Replacing the whole stanza isn't what 308 asks you to do.
  263. Kev Just the payloads.
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  266. Ge0rG that's getting rather philosophical.
  267. Zash Stanza of Theseus
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  270. zinid client developers problems
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  287. lovetox does poezio save stanzas to its local storage?
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  301. Alex If you are a XSF member and have not voted yet in our current voting period then please do so. Memberbot is online and waiting to accept your votes ;-) Thank You
  302. MattJ Done, thanks :)
  303. Alex (Y)
  304. Ge0rG The deadline is 2019-03-12 19:00 UTC!
  305. Ge0rG Alex: thanks for running all this process 👍
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  312. jonas’ done, thanks!
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  315. Seve Alex, very appreciated :)
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  318. Seve New applicants :O
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  325. Syndace Yeah!
  326. pep. lovetox, no it doesn't
  327. lovetox then how does it "replace" a stanza
  328. pep. What do you call local storage?
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  330. lovetox are you saying it keeps the received stanzas in some cache?
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  332. pep. yeah, there's a buffer of stanzas that get displayed or sth
  333. pep. (I don't exactly know the details yet)
  334. pep. LMC will go as many times as it's corrected in the logs in any case, I think
  335. pep. But not displayed
  336. pep. (but **poezio will not display all of them, unless you ask for it)
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  338. lovetox yes, but you wrote it replaces a stanza, but now from what you tell it does sound like it does put every message into storage
  339. pep. By replacing the whole stanza we also lose the ability to see corrections _after_. You have to have that setting _before_ that happens
  340. lovetox so i dont see replacing going oon
  341. pep. lovetox, there's hot/cold storage :p
  342. Ge0rG what about warm storage?
  343. pep. lovetox, when I say "replace" in that issue, I mean that the original stanza is getting replaced by the correction, in the buffer that will get displayed
  344. pep. (I think that's how it works, Link Mauve/mathieui will know better)
  345. Ge0rG not the stanza but the displayed text
  346. pep. no, the stanza
  347. Ge0rG (I'm pretty sure that LMC doesn't apply in the xml tab)
  348. pep. Yeah that's a different tab..
  349. pep. But we keep the stanza, with the associated ids/attributes etc., and that's actually what's causing the issue here, because we don't know about the original ID anymore
  350. pep. So we expect other implementations to refer to the one-to-last id
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  353. Ge0rG Oh, I should have read the issue first.
  354. pep. :)
  355. lovetox pep. but every impl refers to the last message
  356. lovetox not to the first
  357. lovetox if i remember correctly
  358. pep. lovetox, not every no
  359. pep. converse doesn't
  360. pep. And the XEP is not explicit about it
  361. lovetox then you have no base for action
  362. lovetox so why change anything
  363. pep. everything?
  364. lovetox hm no i said anything :D
  365. pep. Ge0rG, I like your time machine
  366. pep. ah, anything.
  367. Ge0rG tl;dr: nobody cares.
  368. pep. lovetox, well, because some LMC messages won't appear as LMC
  369. pep. And it's still valid
  370. lovetox you mean you impl displaying both ways?
  371. Ge0rG pep.: tell converse that it's called LMC and not FMC for a reason.
  372. pep. Ge0rG, we could do that by being explicit in the XEP yes
  373. pep. Or we could fix poezio to support all cases
  374. Ge0rG lovetox: yaxim only stores _one_ message in the DB (yeah, I know, I know). So it can only follow a linear LMC trace and not a tree.
  375. lovetox Ge0rG, Gajim stores all messages but still corrects the last
  376. Ge0rG technically, it should suffice to store two IDs, the _first_ ID and the _last_ ID for correction purposes.
  377. Ge0rG but then you need to index on both.
  378. pep. lovetox, yeah but at least you know the id converse is referring to. poezio doesn't
  379. lovetox i know the id but i still dont show the correction
  380. pep. heh, why?
  381. lovetox because i only allow the last message to be corrected
  382. Ge0rG pep.: I suggest you write a PR outlining that always the lastest message is to be referenced.
  383. pep. hmm
  384. lovetox its called last message correction :D
  385. pep. lovetox, It's not called "last <message> correction" though
  386. lovetox i dont see the difference
  387. lovetox ah i get it
  388. lovetox you mean the user decides what counts as a message
  389. Zash XEP-XXXX: Message Correction Like Last Message Correction, but any recent message, within reason.
  390. Zash There I fixed it
  391. Ge0rG lovetox: I also have a time machine deployment for you: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2018-June/035143.html ;)
  392. pep. Ge0rG, I want access to your time machine
  393. lovetox either way this convers stuff is a good clue
  394. Zash <feature var="any-message-correction"/>
  395. lovetox because i have a bug report with not working LMC
  396. lovetox and now i think i know why
  397. Ge0rG pep.: it's called mutt <esc>/~S
  398. pep. hehe
  399. Ge0rG lovetox: to quote from my past self: > I think there is a compelling reason to allow correcting more than just the last message - imagine typing multiple lines in a row, and only then reading what you sent, to realize a typo / incorrectness.
  400. lovetox im not against it within reason
  401. pep. Mattermost allows Any of My Messages Correction, unless you're an admin and then it's YMC
  402. lovetox Any makes not much sense to me, we are chatting here, this is not a document
  403. pep. Tell that to users with strong OCDs
  404. lovetox also its too much impl work
  405. Ge0rG lovetox: yaxim defines "within reason" as "the last 10 stored messages from that user"
  406. lovetox because when people can alter your history next thing your users want it to be made aware of it
  407. pep. lovetox, I agree
  408. Ge0rG as corrections are overwriting the original message, you can do an unlimited number of corrections of the same msg.
  409. MattJ implemented an animated progress bar in a bot already ;)
  410. pep. or as /marquee
  411. Ge0rG MattJ: showcase!
  412. MattJ Here? In this MUC?? ;)
  413. Zash In this part of XMPP?
  414. Ge0rG MattJ: dunno. Record a screencap maybe?
  415. MattJ Alas, it's a private project, and I don't intend to make this public because someone worse than me will use it somewhere
  416. Ge0rG imagines poezio /upload sending the upload progress of large files
  417. Zash Ge0rG: Don't give them ideas!
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  419. Ge0rG [=====> ] 23.42KB/s ETA: tomorrow
  420. Zash Not when /marquee is a thing already
  421. Ge0rG is there a way to determine the width of the recipient's terminal over XMPP?
  422. Zash Put it in disco#info
  423. pep. XEP-XXXX: RTW
  424. Zash <winch columns="80" lines="24"/>
  425. pep. Ge0rG, do you send something different for each participant?
  426. pep. Or is that a server thing?
  427. Ge0rG pep.: yes!
  428. pep. <width columns="273" lines="74"/>
  429. Zash SIGWINCH
  430. Zash in PEP
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  446. Ge0rG https://op-co.de/tmp/progress.mp4
  447. Ge0rG I did it.
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  449. Ge0rG Now let's make 2D animated art.
  450. dwd I don't know if I'm impressed, or disappointed.
  451. Ge0rG can't you be both, along different aspects of it?
  452. MattJ Star Wars over XMPP
  453. Ge0rG (now somebody must make the stupid name joke)
  454. MattJ Wow, it's still up
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  555. Maranda Pft Star Wars
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