XSF Discussion - 2019-03-08

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  56. moparisthebest

    Wiktor, anyone else interested, code is up https://github.com/moparisthebest/jDnsProxy/blob/dox/dox.md

  57. moparisthebest

    also I have it running at dns@moparisthebest.com/listener if anyone wants to query some DNS over XMPP

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  86. Link Mauve

    “20:04:36 flow> I never understood why we use numbers when humans are much better with letters”, Western* humans, just ask a random Chinese person to remember letters instead of numbers and you’ll have a bad time.

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  88. Ge0rG

    Link Mauve: not even if those letters are abbreviations of the subject matter name?

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  90. Link Mauve

    AIUI, even then.

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  103. flow

    Link Mauve, TIL. But is that an argument that we shouldn't use short names instead of numbers?

  104. Zash

    But, we do have short names

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  109. flow

    that nobody uses

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  111. flow

    that makes the situation even more ironic, we have them, I hope they are supposed to be short and unique, and still we use additinally numbers

  112. Zash

    But IIRC they get assigned at Draft or something

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  118. wurstsalat

    > wurstsalat: it is already? pep., I meant on the xmpp.org frontpage, with a banner?

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  123. pep.

    Ah you want the fancy banner :p

  124. pep.

    If you come up with the CSS for it I assume somebody will accept it

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  133. wurstsalat

    pep., still no computer access for me until end of march, sorry. next time it will be a PR ;)

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  170. jonas’

    flow, the numbers can be uniquely searched for, the short names may be so short that they occur in other words

  171. jonas’

    so using the numbers is much better for searchability

  172. jonas’

    at least that’s my rationale for using them in the ML subject and in rooms

  173. flow

    jonas’, XEP-SM?

  174. jonas’

    then we can never have XEP-SMART

  175. flow


  176. jonas’

    and what about avatars

  177. jonas’

    or bookmarks

  178. flow

    I immeditaly will know what XEP-FMUC is about, can you tell me the FMUC number from the top of your head?

  179. jonas’


  180. jonas’

    no, since I never cared about FMUC

  181. flow

    jonas’, right, but it doesn't make the situation worser

  182. jonas’

    the others I use I typically know, but I’m a number person

  183. flow

    also XEP-CAPS, and XEP-CAPS2 works pretty well for me

  184. jonas’

    then you can’t search for the old caps only

  185. jonas’

    you’ll always get both

  186. flow

    I think I could live with that

  187. jonas’

    not much more frustrating than having inaccurate search results and not being able to do anything about it

  188. flow

    it would be even better if we could tag threads and messages of the ML with unique xep tags for searching, but that is a different discussion

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  191. jonas’

    I agree

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  197. zinid

    > Western* humans, just ask a random Chinese person to remember letters instead of numbers and you’ll have a bad time who cares, there is already a ton of language discrimination 🙂 It's even more sharp when your native alphabet is not latin

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  199. zinid

    this stringprep crap for example, not every language has a problem with character cases, and this shit is built into the protocol, permanently consuming resources at the servers

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  206. Ge0rG


  207. Ge0rG

    The obvious solution is to use XEP Emoji Shortnames.

  208. Ge0rG

    I would like to propose a minor change to XEP<FacePalm><Male><Fitzpatrick-Modifier-3><ZeroWidthJoin><Regional-Indicator-Letter-Ф>

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  211. Zash

    User was banned for this crime against sanity

  212. Guus


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  228. dwd

    FWIW, I think we often do refer to protocols by name, and not number. We refer to the documents by number for precision, but there's only a handful that are routinely referred to by number (198, for example). Most of the time we talk about MUC, or vCards, or whatever.

  229. Ge0rG

    does "MUC" also include all the undocumented quirks that are not part of 0045? 😁

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  231. MattJ

    Ge0rG, fancy documenting those?

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  233. Zash

    What undocumented quirks are there? I can think of the vCard hack and MSN

  234. Ge0rG

    MattJ: MSN is the most prominent example. I think *somebody* started a wiki page on it, but then it was widely ignored by the people who know the most about their respective implementations.

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  236. Zash

    Was that among the losses in the great server crash?

  237. Zash

    Was that page among the losses in the great server crash?

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  239. Ge0rG

    Zash: no

  240. Ge0rG

    At least I don't think so

  241. Zash

    I think I started writing a sentence about the vcard hack but git ate it, probably when I looked at GC 1.0 removal

  242. Zash

    Hah, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0089.html

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  245. Zash

    What was the conclusion of looking at an old XEP each week?

  246. dwd

    Zash, Everyone thought that someone else should definitely do that?

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  248. Zash

    Let's talk about XEP-XXXX: Tragedy of the Commons

  249. dwd

    Have we changed to roman numerals?

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  253. pep.

    What do people think about this: https://lab.louiz.org/poezio/poezio/issues/3462 ? poezio bug: "LMC replaces the whole stanza"

  254. Guus

    pep. given that we're already in a situation where both approaches exist, an implementation note that warns to expect both methods might be good.

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  262. Kev

    Replacing the whole stanza isn't what 308 asks you to do.

  263. Kev

    Just the payloads.

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  266. Ge0rG

    that's getting rather philosophical.

  267. Zash

    Stanza of Theseus

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  270. zinid

    client developers problems

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  287. lovetox

    does poezio save stanzas to its local storage?

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  301. Alex

    If you are a XSF member and have not voted yet in our current voting period then please do so. Memberbot is online and waiting to accept your votes ;-) Thank You

  302. MattJ

    Done, thanks :)

  303. Alex


  304. Ge0rG

    The deadline is 2019-03-12 19:00 UTC!

  305. Ge0rG

    Alex: thanks for running all this process 👍

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  312. jonas’

    done, thanks!

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  315. Seve

    Alex, very appreciated :)

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  318. Seve

    New applicants :O

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  325. Syndace


  326. pep.

    lovetox, no it doesn't

  327. lovetox

    then how does it "replace" a stanza

  328. pep.

    What do you call local storage?

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  330. lovetox

    are you saying it keeps the received stanzas in some cache?

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  332. pep.

    yeah, there's a buffer of stanzas that get displayed or sth

  333. pep.

    (I don't exactly know the details yet)

  334. pep.

    LMC will go as many times as it's corrected in the logs in any case, I think

  335. pep.

    But not displayed

  336. pep.

    (but **poezio will not display all of them, unless you ask for it)

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  338. lovetox

    yes, but you wrote it replaces a stanza, but now from what you tell it does sound like it does put every message into storage

  339. pep.

    By replacing the whole stanza we also lose the ability to see corrections _after_. You have to have that setting _before_ that happens

  340. lovetox

    so i dont see replacing going oon

  341. pep.

    lovetox, there's hot/cold storage :p

  342. Ge0rG

    what about warm storage?

  343. pep.

    lovetox, when I say "replace" in that issue, I mean that the original stanza is getting replaced by the correction, in the buffer that will get displayed

  344. pep.

    (I think that's how it works, Link Mauve/mathieui will know better)

  345. Ge0rG

    not the stanza but the displayed text

  346. pep.

    no, the stanza

  347. Ge0rG

    (I'm pretty sure that LMC doesn't apply in the xml tab)

  348. pep.

    Yeah that's a different tab..

  349. pep.

    But we keep the stanza, with the associated ids/attributes etc., and that's actually what's causing the issue here, because we don't know about the original ID anymore

  350. pep.

    So we expect other implementations to refer to the one-to-last id

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  353. Ge0rG

    Oh, I should have read the issue first.

  354. pep.


  355. lovetox

    pep. but every impl refers to the last message

  356. lovetox

    not to the first

  357. lovetox

    if i remember correctly

  358. pep.

    lovetox, not every no

  359. pep.

    converse doesn't

  360. pep.

    And the XEP is not explicit about it

  361. lovetox

    then you have no base for action

  362. lovetox

    so why change anything

  363. pep.


  364. lovetox

    hm no i said anything :D

  365. pep.

    Ge0rG, I like your time machine

  366. pep.

    ah, anything.

  367. Ge0rG

    tl;dr: nobody cares.

  368. pep.

    lovetox, well, because some LMC messages won't appear as LMC

  369. pep.

    And it's still valid

  370. lovetox

    you mean you impl displaying both ways?

  371. Ge0rG

    pep.: tell converse that it's called LMC and not FMC for a reason.

  372. pep.

    Ge0rG, we could do that by being explicit in the XEP yes

  373. pep.

    Or we could fix poezio to support all cases

  374. Ge0rG

    lovetox: yaxim only stores _one_ message in the DB (yeah, I know, I know). So it can only follow a linear LMC trace and not a tree.

  375. lovetox

    Ge0rG, Gajim stores all messages but still corrects the last

  376. Ge0rG

    technically, it should suffice to store two IDs, the _first_ ID and the _last_ ID for correction purposes.

  377. Ge0rG

    but then you need to index on both.

  378. pep.

    lovetox, yeah but at least you know the id converse is referring to. poezio doesn't

  379. lovetox

    i know the id but i still dont show the correction

  380. pep.

    heh, why?

  381. lovetox

    because i only allow the last message to be corrected

  382. Ge0rG

    pep.: I suggest you write a PR outlining that always the lastest message is to be referenced.

  383. pep.


  384. lovetox

    its called last message correction :D

  385. pep.

    lovetox, It's not called "last <message> correction" though

  386. lovetox

    i dont see the difference

  387. lovetox

    ah i get it

  388. lovetox

    you mean the user decides what counts as a message

  389. Zash

    XEP-XXXX: Message Correction Like Last Message Correction, but any recent message, within reason.

  390. Zash

    There I fixed it

  391. Ge0rG

    lovetox: I also have a time machine deployment for you: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2018-June/035143.html ;)

  392. pep.

    Ge0rG, I want access to your time machine

  393. lovetox

    either way this convers stuff is a good clue

  394. Zash

    <feature var="any-message-correction"/>

  395. lovetox

    because i have a bug report with not working LMC

  396. lovetox

    and now i think i know why

  397. Ge0rG

    pep.: it's called mutt <esc>/~S

  398. pep.


  399. Ge0rG

    lovetox: to quote from my past self: > I think there is a compelling reason to allow correcting more than just the last message - imagine typing multiple lines in a row, and only then reading what you sent, to realize a typo / incorrectness.

  400. lovetox

    im not against it within reason

  401. pep.

    Mattermost allows Any of My Messages Correction, unless you're an admin and then it's YMC

  402. lovetox

    Any makes not much sense to me, we are chatting here, this is not a document

  403. pep.

    Tell that to users with strong OCDs

  404. lovetox

    also its too much impl work

  405. Ge0rG

    lovetox: yaxim defines "within reason" as "the last 10 stored messages from that user"

  406. lovetox

    because when people can alter your history next thing your users want it to be made aware of it

  407. pep.

    lovetox, I agree

  408. Ge0rG

    as corrections are overwriting the original message, you can do an unlimited number of corrections of the same msg.

  409. MattJ implemented an animated progress bar in a bot already ;)

  410. pep.

    or as /marquee

  411. Ge0rG

    MattJ: showcase!

  412. MattJ

    Here? In this MUC?? ;)

  413. Zash

    In this part of XMPP?

  414. Ge0rG

    MattJ: dunno. Record a screencap maybe?

  415. MattJ

    Alas, it's a private project, and I don't intend to make this public because someone worse than me will use it somewhere

  416. Ge0rG imagines poezio /upload sending the upload progress of large files

  417. Zash

    Ge0rG: Don't give them ideas!

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  419. Ge0rG

    [=====> ] 23.42KB/s ETA: tomorrow

  420. Zash

    Not when /marquee is a thing already

  421. Ge0rG

    is there a way to determine the width of the recipient's terminal over XMPP?

  422. Zash

    Put it in disco#info

  423. pep.


  424. Zash

    <winch columns="80" lines="24"/>

  425. pep.

    Ge0rG, do you send something different for each participant?

  426. pep.

    Or is that a server thing?

  427. Ge0rG

    pep.: yes!

  428. pep.

    <width columns="273" lines="74"/>

  429. Zash


  430. Zash

    in PEP

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  446. Ge0rG


  447. Ge0rG

    I did it.

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  449. Ge0rG

    Now let's make 2D animated art.

  450. dwd

    I don't know if I'm impressed, or disappointed.

  451. Ge0rG

    can't you be both, along different aspects of it?

  452. MattJ

    Star Wars over XMPP

  453. Ge0rG

    (now somebody must make the stupid name joke)

  454. MattJ

    Wow, it's still up

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  555. Maranda

    Pft Star Wars

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