XSF Discussion - 2019-03-11

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  166. zinid jonas’, hey, I have sent you the protoXEP, I know you're busy, but maybe you will find some time to accept it for the upcoming agenda
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  182. jonas’ zinid, thanks for the hint
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  216. dwd lnj, Is qxmpp your project?
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  223. lnj dwd: not its not, but I'm contributing to it
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  227. dwd lnj, Any idea if the example GUI does MIX at all? I saw the library does.
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  232. zinid dwd, are you working at any XMPP projects nowadays?
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  234. dwd zinid, Trying to. :-)
  235. dwd zinid, Both Threads Styling stuff (lots of gatewaying into other IM systems) and Metre. I should be doing Openfire too (although I'm not really sure they need my help right now).
  236. dwd zinid, Current Threads thing is a standalone MIX implementation that I'm then building on to do our gatewaying interface. Hoping to get the MIX bits out as OSS for people to play with.
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  239. zinid dwd: okay
  240. zinid good to know someone is doing MIX
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  245. Guus dwd we just upgraded MINA, and you're wondering if we need your help? 🙂
  246. lnj dwd: I'm working on the MIX implementation in QXmpp, but it's not entirely finished and not all of my pull requests have been merged yet.
  247. lnj But all parsing / serialization of the main xep and xep 405 is working (in the unit tests).
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  250. dwd Guus, That's what I mean, you clearly don't!
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  252. dwd lnj, Ah, OK. For my purposes, just a real client I can use for exploratory testing would be really helpful.
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  255. Guus dwd Imply what you want - we're still assigning all issues to you. 🙂
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  259. Guus dwd We'd like to welcome you home. Kindly re-auto-join open_chat 🙂
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  261. Zash Would you kindly
  262. Guus That'd be as if I'm giving him a choice. Nope. 🙂
  263. Guus We need our glorious leader back!
  264. Guus The fashion industry has stolen him from us!
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  274. dwd So - if a XEP-0060 node supports XEP-0313, the archived items are the events sent out? What about retracts when notify is set to false - do these events which don't get sent get archived nonetheless?
  275. ralphm dwd: a retract is not an item, it is the removal of one, so I'm not sure if it is appropriate to store in MAM.
  276. dwd ralphm, What's in MAM then, if not events?
  277. ralphm I.e. if you request items from a pubsub node, you only get items, and if a previously existing item was retracted, it will not be included in the result.
  278. dwd ralphm, Oh, certainly. But if you ask for the Things from MAM, that wouldn't be items, but events? Or what?
  279. ralphm dwd: this is a good question. Either the MAM archive is a record of the notifications (even if they weren't sent?) or it is an archive of items.
  280. ralphm I kinda expected the latter, to be consistent with the pubsub items iq results.
  281. dwd ralphm, I thought it was a good questioin when I asked it.
  282. ralphm It is
  283. ralphm because we also have other notifications
  284. ralphm like node deletion
  285. dwd ralphm, Yes, this is true. Are those also events (as in {http://jabber.org/protocol/pubsub}event)?
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  287. ralphm ``` <xs:element name='event'> <xs:complexType> <xs:choice> <xs:element ref='collection'/> <xs:element ref='configuration'/> <xs:element ref='delete'/> <xs:element ref='items'/> <xs:element ref='purge'/> <xs:element ref='subscription'/> </xs:choice> </xs:complexType> </xs:element> ```
  288. dwd Oh. Gosh. Lots of types I hadn't thought about.
  289. MattJ dwd, FWIW the pubsub stuff in MAM has never delighted me, for reasons like this. I've had a lot of feedback that it should at least be split out, but I haven't had time for that yet.
  290. ralphm And items can include 'item' or 'retract'.
  291. MattJ I don't really understand what it would be expected to return, but I suspect it would have to leave a tombstone for retracted items
  292. dwd MattJ, I would advocate splitting it out if it weren't for the minor point that there seems to be only one sentence of it...
  293. MattJ No, there is more: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html#business-storeret-pubsub-archives
  294. MattJ Oh right, that paragraph is a sentence
  295. MattJ No, two
  296. ralphm Since MIX critically depends on MAM and PubSub, this is something that requires a clear answer.
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  299. dwd MattJ, SO that looks as if it's saying that it's the events that are stored, but the only mandatory event is the 'item' event (for publicaiton).
  300. dwd MattJ, One assumes, therefore, that other events might be permissible. If one squints enough.
  301. dwd ralphm, This, incidentally, is why I'm asking the question.
  302. ralphm So really, events with <items><item/></items>
  303. ralphm but with retracted items excluded
  304. dwd ralphm, Yes. Sorry, it seems today everyone has to use very loose parsing on what I'm trying to say...
  305. dwd ralphm, No, it mentions no limitations, just a requirement to include the item publishes.
  306. ralphm MAM in turn also seems to kinda support the notion of messages being removed from an archive, without providing protocol for it.
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  308. ralphm (section 3.2)
  309. MattJ It definitely doesn't support the notion of messages being *removed*
  310. dwd ralphm, Seems reasonable. I suspect there are a number of use-cases for siilently removing a message from the archive.
  311. ralphm MattJ: second paragraph
  312. dwd MattJ, Blame Kev?
  313. MattJ The second paragraph essentially explains that the entry is still there, but without a payload
  314. ralphm But, reading XEP-313's 5.1.3, I definitely read that as grafting the MAM protocol on top of a pubsub item store and faking it
  315. ralphm I.e. not actually requiring storing events, but constructing them as if sent to a subscriber, wrapped by the envelope.
  316. ralphm Also note that it doesn't allow multiple items in one message, which /is/ ok for actual event notifications.
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  319. ralphm For what it is worth, I think this is fine.
  320. ralphm The only gap I see is that a client may not ever become aware of the retraction of an item.
  321. ralphm because if it happened to be offline when the notification got sent, and the item is 'emptied' (as MattJ suggests), there will not be a thing representing that deletion in the archive.
  322. ralphm However, on the other hand, the retract event *should* be in the user's own archive, assuming the model where the server manages the users subscription (PAM).
  323. ralphm And given that, it is sufficiently consistent to me.
  324. ralphm I.e. if you were not yet subscribed, retrieving the archive just lacks the retracted items, and is the consolidated state of things.
  325. ralphm (retrieving it from the pubsub node)
  326. ralphm dwd?
  327. dwd processes.
  328. Zash And where did the text about having to return item-not-found for unknown ids in RSM?
  329. Zash And where did the text about having to return item-not-found for unknown ids in RSM come from?
  330. dwd ralphm, No, I think that sucks a bit. Asking a remote source for MAM items should yield the same result as asking your local source filtering for the remote sender. I think.
  331. Guus Was there a DST switchover last weekend?
  332. MattJ US changed, yes
  333. Guus \o/ first time in ... ever ... that I learned about this _before_ being late for a meeting.
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  338. ralphm dwd: why? The first in this case is the archive of the pubsub node, and the second is the archive of messages sent to you.
  339. ralphm Guus: make sure you tell Arc
  340. Guus arc ^^
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  342. arc Lol
  343. arc It's a DST miracle
  344. dwd (In other news, I think I can make MIX without MIX-PAM work reasonably well, which might make it less of a forklift upgrade)
  345. Zash And EU chickened out of abolishing DST :(
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  347. dwd Zash, It may be the only positive from Brexit.
  348. ralphm dwd: having MAM remember all the possible events sent to users for pubsub nodes is a bit terrible itself. E.g. it would need to record config changes.
  349. ralphm Not even sure about subscription approvals
  350. dwd ralphm, Well sure. But for items, at least, recording old versions of items and retractions seems reasonable.
  351. Guus Zash wait what?
  352. dwd ralphm, Otherwise what's the point of having the archive?
  353. ralphm dwd: why? The semantics of a publish request with the same item id, is that the previous item is obliterated and replaced with the new one.
  354. dwd ralphm, Besides which, it'd mean querying the MAM archive of the messages node of a MIX channel always gave you nothing. Boring.
  355. ralphm If you do an items request, you don't get that either.
  356. Zash Guus: The EU considered abolishing DST changes, but chickened out and didn't give any requirements and "every country could do whatever they want", so it seems nothing changes and we get the stupid DST headache twice a year.
  357. ralphm dwd: why would querying the mam archive of the messages node of a mix channel give you no items?
  358. Guus Zash fwiw, I thought that most countries would still go ahead and change it - although there might not be a uniform choice across Europe (and for those that do stop switching over, it's undecided if they'd go for summer, or winter time.
  359. ralphm dwd: even though the notifications are sent as regular <message/> stanzas with bodies, there's no reason the message archive for the node to not return 'proper' constructed events as with every node.
  360. dwd ralphm, Because it's explicitly defined to not store pubsub items.
  361. ralphm dwd: so that node is transient?
  362. dwd ralphm, See XEP-0369#4.7.2
  363. Zash Guus: So without coordination we might get a worse mess than now.
  364. Guus Zash perhaps
  365. dwd Zash, Same time for any switches that do happen, mind.
  366. Zash Don't most of the EU switch at the same time already?
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  368. ralphm dwd: wait, so in that section, which archive is being referred to? The archive of the messages node, or of the channel itself?
  369. dwd ralphm, It doesn't mention an archive there. But your proposal means that querying the archive for the MIX channel gives messages, whereas querying the archive of the messages node of the MIX channel doesn't.
  370. dwd Zash, They do, all, switch at the same time. The UK moved its changeover time, IIRC, by an hour, to match the rest of the EU.
  371. Zash And is mostly in the same timezone (except the uk and finland?)
  372. Zash And what's this about MIX and MAM?
  373. dwd Zash, And Portugal. Not sure about some of Eastern Europe either.
  374. dwd Zash, MIX, MAM, and '60.
  375. dwd Zash, But mostly, what's in a '60 MAM archive.
  376. Zash Don't you get all messages regardless of whether you have online resources?
  377. Zash .. to your account? So you could query them from there?
  378. Zash And without getting a copy per joined resource?
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  380. ralphm dwd: well, I'm not sure if it a proposal, but it is one or the other. Either the messages node is persistent, but sends out notifications as regular messages instead of pubsub events, or it is not a real pubsub node, and subscribing to it just indicates the desire to get the non-event-but-bare-stanzas-with-payload messages.
  381. arc Zash no we get it four or more times a year because different parts of the world switch at different times
  382. Zash I meant within the EU tho
  383. ralphm In the latter case, maybe having the archive be at the channel level, not the nodes it contains. I'm not sure how that interacts with hypothetical 'root node' subscriptions and their MAM archive.
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  389. arc Yea, that kind of thinking is problematic because it spreads. At a tech conferences here in the US, I keep hearing things like "xmpp? Don't they just use that in the EU?"
  390. MattJ No, they also use it in the UK
  391. ralphm Zash: I think you want to scroll back to http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2019-03-11#2019-03-11-fb946fc83908ade3
  392. ralphm arc: you could reply with 'Fortnite'.
  393. dwd MattJ, Another 18 days until that works.
  394. arc Adults don't understand fortnight
  395. dwd arc, Eve Online. Origin. NATO.
  396. dwd arc, Actually, your president doesn't understand NATO, at least. :-)
  397. ralphm arc: adults are overrated
  398. arc Not my president. He's only president for Nazis and rednecks
  399. ralphm dwd: what about my message earlier?
  400. dwd ralphm, FWIW, I wanted the messages node to hold all messages. But I lost that one. My solution was to have MAM flags which could "condense" the items, for example by eliding retractions and corrected messages. I've been toying with the idea of such things to flag messages which have been acknowledged by '184, etc.
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  402. dwd ralphm, But in any case, the MAM/MIX vs MAM/'60-on-messages-node is just a curiosity. Subscribing to the messages node with '60 syntax should/might give you a pubsub-syntax event stream of messages.
  403. ralphm I am happy for something that condenses archived messages in general, although keeping in mind the discussion on multiple dimensions as discussed with Kev on the Summit.
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  405. dwd ralphm, I don't remember the discussion being discussed.
  406. dwd ralphm, Did we discuss a discussion during the discussion?
  407. ralphm However, I strongly believe that MAM on PubSub nodes currently are defined as a protocol to the item archive, not the message archive, and this is just a choice. I don't think right now that it is a bad one.
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  410. ralphm To cover the weird semantics of the messages node sending out notifications is a non-XEP-0060 syntax is something we could encode in the node configuration.
  411. ralphm There is (some) precedent for this.
  412. Zash If it was an archive of events then you'd probably want a way to filter them for the data payloads
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  414. ralphm I remember that when Twitter supported XMPP pubsub (yes, really), it sent out atom elements and bodies in the bare message instead of using the event structure.
  415. ralphm The goal was to make it easier for client devs to work with.
  416. Zash pubsub#include_body is pretty nice
  417. ralphm yes and no
  418. ralphm it would only cover the body
  419. Zash True
  420. ralphm But we could define something similar
  421. ralphm like
  422. Zash Including a picture would be neat in some cases actually.
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  424. ralphm a config item that represents 'bare notifications'
  425. Zash What do you mean by "bare"?
  426. ralphm Zash: a notification without the pubsub event wrapper
  427. Zash Wait did they send `<message><{atom}item>atom stuff</item><body>someone tweeted hello</body></message>` without the pubsub container?
  428. ralphm Zash: we are considering what notifications a user gets when subscribed to the messages node in a mix channel, right?
  429. ralphm So at some point we said we wanted 'regular' messages to be sent as 'regular' messages originating in the channels' JID
  430. ralphm However, you still have to subscribe to the 'messages' node.
  431. ralphm For all other nodes, you'd get notifications with the normal pubsub event wrapper.
  432. Zash I'm afraid I haven't managed to read the MIX specs yet.
  433. ralphm So if we want to change that for this purpose, you'd have to have a flag to represent this behaviour.
  434. Zash I remember discussions about that and thought containerless was the case already.
  435. ralphm Zash: yes, but implicit in the sense that if you just throw a pubsub service onto the jid representing a channel, it doesn't work that way.
  436. ralphm Zash: XEP-0369 now says something weird:
  437. ralphm “The Messages node is used to distribute messages. The Messages node is a transient node and so no PubSub items are held. Messages MUST go to the associated MAM archive and history is retrieved by use of MAM. Users subscribe to this node to indicate that messages from the channel are to be sent to them. Private Messages are not distributed by the Messages node. ”
  438. ralphm So this is not very clear on the details.
  439. zinid why isn't it clear?
  440. zinid I find it pretty clear
  441. zinid I implemented this part, didn't find caveates
  442. ralphm zinid: if the pubsub item 'messages' doesn't hold items, what MAM archive does this text refer to?
  443. ralphm pubsub node, I mean
  444. zinid I don't know, but that's how MIX designed
  445. zinid it's just weird
  446. ralphm zinid: so instead of saying 'it is weird', we are trying to properly define it.
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  448. ralphm zinid
  449. ralphm I didn't say the intent wasn't clear
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  451. zinid I mean the sentence "as an instruction" is clear. we have tons of weirdness in our XEPs, I kinda don't pay attention already
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  453. zinid whatever
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  455. ralphm zinid: so to retrieve the MAM archive for the channel's messages, where does the client direct it? The channel JID? With or without a node?
  456. zinid ralphm, to channel jid, no need for any nodes
  457. dwd zinid, +1
  458. zinid this node is kinda "ephemeral"
  459. ralphm zinid: ok, I'll buy that, but that means that the 'messages' node is not really a pubsub node.
  460. dwd ralphm, We assume that directing XEP-0060 traffic to individual nodes gives you "classic" XEP-0060 stuff.
  461. ralphm dwd: sure, I'm happy with that
  462. ralphm but the text I quoted should be more explicit on this
  463. dwd ralphm, And FWIW, the "subscription" to nodes is fully mediated by the MIX channel itself, so it can do "special" subscriptions for the messages node if done through a join. WHich is what I'm doing right now.
  464. ralphm Because even if it is a transient node, subscribing to it would normally yield empty notifications like this: <message from='pubsub.shakespeare.lit' to='francisco@denmark.lit'> <event xmlns='http://jabber.org/protocol/pubsub#event'> <items node='elsinore/doorbell'/> </event> </message>
  465. ralphm dwd: maybe it would be better to say: there is no XEP-0060 style 'messages' node.
  466. dwd ralphm, Why empty?
  467. ralphm dwd: right, good point. At least without an item id.
  468. zinid > the "subscription" to nodes is fully mediated by the MIX channel itself dwd, and that's the most weird thing of MIX. Back then when we implemented pubsub in ejabberd it was supposed to be a simple front-end to a database, now we introduce some "mediation" layer and the code is just useless now
  469. dwd ralphm, You're showing '60 Ex 3, there, which is explicitly a transient node that *also* doesn't have payloads.
  470. zinid so the complexity now is how to design internal pubsub handlers to work above any "mediated" layer
  471. zinid including database or MIX
  472. dwd ralphm, Whereas if you look at Table 4, bottom right is what we're expecting if you subscribe directly to the messages node.
  473. ralphm Right, without item ids
  474. dwd zinid, Right - in my toy implementation, subscriptions internally are callable types (functor objects), and so MIX just uses a different callable type for join'ed message subscriptions.
  475. dwd ralphm, No, they just don't *have* to have message ids.
  476. dwd ralphm, Argh. Item ids.
  477. zinid dwd, sure, it's quite doable if you don't have a ton of code you need to redesign 🙂
  478. dwd ralphm, And probably wouldn't - there's a lot of complexity unspoken about whether the id on a message coming out from MIX is an item id in Pubsub terms or some new Event Id.
  479. dwd zinid, Yes, as well I know from looking at doing similar in Openfire etc.
  480. ralphm dwd: it'd be better to say: the messages node is special, no notifications, no archive, you just indicate you want normal message from the channel and *it* has an archive
  481. yon has joined
  482. dwd ralphm, I think it works anyway, doesn't it? We just need to say that asking for the MAM archive from the channel itself is a Different Thing.
  483. dwd ralphm, Noting, of course, that MIX implementations do nto have to offer very much (if any) classic XEP-0060 on the nodes within channels.
  484. ralphm And that you don't get notifications from the node itself
  485. ralphm Well, I definitely expect other nodes to be proper pubsub nodes
  486. ralphm With retract, purge, etc.
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  488. ralphm Or at least all the normal mandatory stuff
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  510. zinid hey guys, any input on my last ranting on standards@ list?
  511. zinid https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2019-March/035857.html
  512. zinid nobody read? nobody cares?
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  516. moparisthebest I like the idea, haven't read the XEPs yet though
  517. Guus has left
  518. zinid nice to hear, thanks
  519. Zash I stopped reading at "it just sucks"
  520. zinid oh, sorry
  521. zinid yeah, I shouldn't have said that
  522. moparisthebest oh I agreed with that part :P
  523. zinid you're guys so fragile, I always forget 😀
  524. zinid whatever, scram sucks 😛
  525. moparisthebest hmm, so I like the whole "cert auth" part, I hate the centralized CA bit
  526. lskdjf has left
  527. moparisthebest is the only reason for that "spam prevention" ?
  528. lskdjf has joined
  529. zinid moparisthebest, no, also RELOAD requirement
  530. zinid that's Sybil protection
  531. zinid https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0415.html#enroll-auth
  532. zinid first part
  533. Ge0rG zinid: how do you protect from sybil attacks, again?
  534. zinid Ge0rG, by concentrating identities checks in a few single place, at CAs
  535. zinid note that for now we don't need the checks to be extremely severe, something like oauth to popular services or sms verification is enough so far
  536. Ge0rG why is a sybil attack even a problem at all?
  537. zinid Ge0rG, in p2p?
  538. zinid because you can polute routing
  539. Ge0rG in the CA thing.
  540. zinid aka Eclipse attack
  541. dwd has left
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  543. zinid sybil attack is not a problem is CA, CAs are just centralized to prevent Sybil
  544. zinid *in
  545. moparisthebest idk, the CA looks like a total dealbreaker to me
  546. zinid moparisthebest, why?
  547. moparisthebest maybe that makes it vulnerable to a sybil attack but probably worth it
  548. zinid I recall you like DNS, but DNS is ICANN - same centralized stuff
  549. moparisthebest I don't know anyone or any organization I trust enough to run a CA
  550. Ge0rG zinid: but how is a CA supposed to prevent sybil attacks?
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  552. moparisthebest I only trust certificates as far as the public key anyway, hence why I like DNSSEC + DANE etc
  553. zinid Ge0rG, I wrote already: > note that for now we don't need the checks to be extremely severe, something like oauth to popular services or sms verification is enough so far
  554. zinid moparisthebest, but what's the difference?
  555. Ge0rG zinid: but that would mean that you essentially don't verify the identity of the XMPP entity but instead of whatever third-party service you use?
  556. Ge0rG (actually, "in addition to")
  557. zinid Ge0rG, you can verify the entity of course by asking to provide the passport 😀
  558. zinid without CAs you don't have even that: you cannot identify all your online contacts that way
  559. moparisthebest to clarify, I like the idea of identifying an XMPP *account* (not device, could be multiple devices) with a cryptographic key
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  561. moparisthebest I don't like the idea of a centralized CA approving that
  562. Ge0rG zinid: I still think that you are conflating multiple different problem domains. There is value in having an XMPP based CA hierarchy, and there is value in whatever sybil attack prevention mechanism you might require for RELOAD. But those are completely separate
  563. j.r has joined
  564. zinid Ge0rG, sure they are separate
  565. zinid but I don't solve separate problems
  566. zinid I separate a single meta problem
  567. moparisthebest zinid, if you are looking for "trust" then each domain should have it's own level of trust, which gets passed to it's users, imho
  568. zinid I'm not interested in our permanent bikeshedding with small problems without seeing a complete picture
  569. moparisthebest that keeps it federated
  570. zinid moparisthebest, it's possible to do and I outlined that in XEP-0416
  571. zinid but still Sybil resistance is a problem and you CANNOT address it without centralization, and clever people proved that
  572. moparisthebest then it shouldn't be addressed...
  573. zinid also, what's the point in federated accounts? why not roaming user profiles? we're moving that way in Moved for example
  574. moparisthebest as you pointed out it's already basically centralized and could be solved that way through DNS
  575. zinid so we just rely on CA instead of DNS, both are centralized
  576. moparisthebest if entire domains are trusted/not and excluded/not attackers already can't buy an unlimited number of those
  577. zinid moparisthebest, I can create 100500 accounts on another poorly maintained server and attack your server, what will you do?
  578. moparisthebest block that 1 server
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  580. zinid oh great idea 🙂
  581. zinid to block other users on that server?
  582. moparisthebest no problem, they can use their crypto identity to move to another one :D
  583. dwd has joined
  584. zinid moparisthebest, how that?
  585. zinid where will they get the identity? how will they move?
  586. zinid from *abandoned* server
  587. zinid not to mention they will of course not move anywhere
  588. moparisthebest they generate the identity, all their contacts have that key, when they get a request from $new_account with that same identity, they know they've moved
  589. zinid and you will trust the identity signed by that rougue server?
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  591. moparisthebest it's not signed by anyone
  592. zinid moparisthebest, also, can you please outline your concerns with CAs?
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  594. zinid let's encrypt is bad?
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  596. moparisthebest 1. assuming good intent and all that, commercial CAs get hacked/compromised all the time, what "XMPP CA" would even be as good?
  597. moparisthebest 2. I don't like assuming good intent, or being at the whim of anyone else
  598. zinid moparisthebest, and DNS servers are not hacked all the time?
  599. zinid and DNS assumes not intent?
  600. moparisthebest no? also there isn't a single source of truth DNS server
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  602. zinid except root servers?
  603. zinid whatever, what you say is possible if every XMPP server maintains CA
  604. zinid tied to their domains
  605. zinid but it sucks
  606. zinid also, good luck create roaming profiles in such system: why would I trust identities signed by some server X?
  607. zinid it's even moot that CA and much easier to compromise
  608. zinid *than
  609. moparisthebest I don't think there should be CAs at all, only account keys, generated on an end device on account creation, sync'd to other devices
  610. zinid moparisthebest, and how will you verify those keys?
  611. moparisthebest manually, or PGP web-of-trust style ? :P
  612. zinid sigh
  613. zinid okay, have fun with it
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