XSF Discussion - 2019-03-12

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  196. moparisthebest what's the proper thing to use for a new namespace for a ProtoXEP ?
  197. moparisthebest like a URL I control, or make something up in urn:xmpp:X ?
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  209. moparisthebest went ahead with my own URL for now, if that's not right could someone let me know? https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/765
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  238. zinid moparisthebest: `urn:xmpp:X:0`
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  241. Wiktor Isn't it `urn:xmpp:tmp:X`?
  242. zinid Wiktor: I think we got rid of tmp?
  243. Wiktor Oh, sorry then, I'm not up to date with this stuff
  244. zinid the problem with tmp is that it's quite possible that namespace wouldn't be bumped
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  246. zinid and tmp will go into final 😁
  247. Wiktor Yeah, that's the same with `X-*` headers in HTTP. They are discouraged now.
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  273. jonas’ moparisthebest, use something which is sensible from the urn:xmpp: namespace
  274. zinid urn:xmpp:dox apparently
  275. jonas’ for example, yes
  276. jonas’ :dox:0 even
  277. zinid let's polute the namespace by april 1st jokes!
  278. jonas’ is that an april 1st joke?
  279. zinid yes
  280. jonas’ oh
  281. jonas’ I thought moparisthebest was serious.
  282. zinid yeah, you never know
  283. jonas’ indeed
  284. zinid probably worth adding "humor" to the namespace path 🙂
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  286. jonas’ :tmp would be less obvious and still ok
  287. zinid whatever, I just think aquiring "dox" acronym is not a very good idea, because it sounds nice and may be reused in more serious xeps 😛
  288. jonas’ but it’s also fun because of doxing
  289. zinid yeah, so just append something to the namespace, don't let it be urn:xmpp:dox:*
  290. zinid urn:xmpp:humor:dox, whatever
  291. jonas’ moparisthebest, urn:xmpp:tmp:dox seems good for now
  292. jonas’ :tmp shouldn’t be used by serious protoxeps, and it looks innocent enough :)
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  340. dwd We used to use :tmp: for all Experimental XEPs, but dropped it because it wasn't a stable namespace, and we wanted people to implement early and safely with Experimental. Of course, this has other downsides, like deployment pressure, but that's something I'm happier to live with.
  341. dwd But loosely, :tmp: was our X-.
  342. dwd zinid, urn:xmpp:humor is reserved for Officially Humourous Things, surely? Do we need a work team to decide what is Officially Funny?
  343. zinid dwd, sure we can schedule that work at April 1st
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  348. Seve Not a fan of that personally
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  372. Guus Seve you might have missed the importance of the suggested date. 🙂
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  379. Ge0rG https://matrix.org/blog/2019/03/12/breaking-the-100bps-barrier-with-matrix-meshsim-coap-proxy/ 😁
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  383. zinid Ge0rG: already on HN?
  384. Ge0rG No idea. But it's 25bps higher than STANAG XMPP
  385. zinid damn
  386. Ge0rG Higher = worse.
  387. zinid ah, right
  388. zinid good then 😁
  389. zinid I use stanag all the time in the lift
  390. Guus How often are you in a lift?
  391. zinid I didn't count 🤔
  392. zinid a few times a day?
  393. zinid subway is also a good source of high quality stanags
  394. Guus Please add a "XMPP STANAG TESTING ZONE" sticker.
  395. Guus https://www.lemark.co.uk/custom-printing/printed-barrier-tape/ 😏
  396. Ge0rG 👍
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  444. moparisthebest I updated the namespace on the PR jonas’
  445. moparisthebest also that was part of my evil plan all along, I'll push this thing all the way to final leaving everyone wondering forever more "wait a second, is this a joke or not" >:)
  446. jonas’ humorous track doesn’t have final
  447. moparisthebest I have it as Standards Track :D
  448. Zash Implement and deploy!
  449. Zash Like the JSON for BOSH XEP
  450. moparisthebest Zash, already done! https://github.com/moparisthebest/jDnsProxy/tree/dox deployed at xmpp:dns@moparisthebest.com/listener
  451. Zash !
  452. moparisthebest run it on your router, force your whole network DNS queries over XMPP
  453. MattJ and one day it will surface that DNS over HTTP was actually a similar joke that went too far?
  454. moparisthebest actually in ways this is better than DoH because of the long lived connection, no TLS setup each time etc
  455. jonas’ you can have long-lived connections with HTTP, too
  456. Zash You can.
  457. Zash But do you?
  458. moparisthebest not quite *as* long lived, or as easily
  459. moparisthebest that is to say, the server is gonna disconnect you regularly
  460. jonas’ a DoX server might as well
  461. MattJ DoXoH
  462. jonas’ DoX-over-BOSH?
  463. MattJ Yes
  464. moparisthebest DoX isn't necessarily a server, my implementation of it right now is a client
  465. Zash over IP-over-DNS?
  466. jonas’ moparisthebest, but you need a server as entry-point
  467. moparisthebest sure
  468. jonas’ and that might disconnect you
  469. moparisthebest use it in combination with ping?
  470. Ge0rG moparisthebest: does it respond to plaintext requests?
  471. Ge0rG You always need to introduce a legacy mode
  472. moparisthebest nope needs raw DNS bytes
  473. Ge0rG How am I supposed to operate it from mobile, then? 😜
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  476. moparisthebest make a program to convert text to raw bytes, I use dig :D
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  478. moparisthebest from mobile, use dig from Termux
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  480. Guus At some point I'm going to throw a bucket full of ice cold water over you guys.
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  482. jonas’ steps away
  483. jonas’ holds and caresses his sed(1)
  484. jonas’ my preciouuusssss
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  488. Guus adds more ice to the bucket.
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  492. jonas’ speaking of twisting stuff in ways to have fun with it: jslinux (<https://bellard.org/jslinux/vm.html?url=https://bellard.org/jslinux/buildroot-x86-xwin.cfg&graphic=1>) supports X11 and networking by now, networking happens via a general ethernet-layer WebSocket VPN (see http://www.benjamincburns.com/2013/11/10/jor1k-ethmac-support.html )
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  497. flow moparisthebest, I am not sure that DoX should be humorous, it could prove useful
  498. moparisthebest I agree
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  502. flow uh, it is standards track
  503. moparisthebest yep I did that on purpose, I'd still like it released on April 1st just for the ensuing hilarity and confusion though :D
  504. flow I was assuming it to be a <type>humorous</type> XEP based on your comment to accept it on 1.4
  505. flow mission accomplished I'd say ;)
  506. Zash Master level trolling you got there :)
  507. moparisthebest yay
  508. ralphm moparisthebest: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0053.html#namespaces
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  510. ralphm (for reference)
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  512. Seve >Seve you might have missed the importance of the suggested date. 🙂 Yes, I was saying that I don't feel very comfortable using XEPs for humorous things, just my personal opinon. I would just use a blog page or something that 1st of April and that's all.
  513. ralphm What is officially funny is up to the Editor.
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  515. ralphm Seve: tough luck
  516. Guus who is German.
  517. Guus ducks, runs.
  518. ralphm Guus: tsk
  519. Seve ralphm, I'm not asking to change anything, just mentioning how I see it :) Never in my life encountered this, maybe that is english culture I don't know, but I'm not used to have official stuff being used for jokes, let's say. Again, this has been like that for ages, not going to ask for a change :)
  520. ralphm Seve: welcome to the world of standards bodies
  521. ralphm This might be a good start: https://tangentsoft.net/rfcs/humorous.html
  522. moparisthebest Seve, yea there is already a long history https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0183.html
  523. ralphm http://www.openrfc.org/humour.pl
  524. Seve moparisthebest, I'm aware :)
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  527. moparisthebest besides in my opinion DoX is no more or less silly than DoH and everyone and their brother implements that so... :)
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  529. ralphm I'm not sure if I agree DoH is silly in and of itself. I do think that having only two services for it (Google and Cloudflare) is terrible.
  530. moparisthebest and that quad9 one and anyone else that wants to run one
  531. moparisthebest but I agree with what I think your point is, that sending all DNS queries to a much smaller number of resolvers is a bad idea :)
  532. ralphm Right
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  535. ralphm But as a protocol concept I'm not against.
  536. Zash But I am! HTTP-ification of all the things annoy me!
  537. moparisthebest start a DoX resolver now! be the change you want to see!
  538. Zash moparisthebest: Adding support to unbound you say?
  539. moparisthebest my resolver asks unbound yes
  540. moparisthebest which asks jdnsproxy, which asks a random dns-over-tls resolver over tor :)
  541. moparisthebest but you don't have to be *as* crazy
  542. moparisthebest you can just configure it to ask unbound
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  544. ralphm I thought this was a great overview of this topic: https://blog.powerdns.com/2019/02/07/the-big-dns-privacy-debate-at-fosdem/
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  548. Ge0rG Indeed, thanks for the link!
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  551. moparisthebest the way I solve that personally is by querying DNS-over-TLS servers from a range of providers over tor
  552. moparisthebest I can trust I'm talking to who I think I am and evil exit nodes aren't modifying anything, they don't know who I am, no 1 provider has all queries, and I validate DNSSEC myself anyway
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  554. Ge0rG That's... complicated
  555. moparisthebest what is?
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  557. Ge0rG Your setup of DNS over Tor
  558. moparisthebest well I did end up writing jDnsProxy to support it yea, existing options weren't that great
  559. moparisthebest but *now* it's seamless :P
  560. Ge0rG Except for the 300ms latency?
  561. moparisthebest that's what serve-stale is for https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dnsop-serve-stale
  562. moparisthebest also unbound has various options to keep well used queries refreshed and such, overall it works quite well
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  564. Ge0rG Some days ago I realized that the smack socks proxy client doesn't work with orbot.
  565. ralphm moparisthebest: is DNSSEC really a good thing, though? I've always wondered about its true utility and this thread didn't make it better. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19241225
  566. Zash Are you reading the comments? On HN of all places?
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  568. moparisthebest ralphm, eh it's totally different, a CA can issue a cert, not put it in the (new) cert log, and browsers etc still mostly trust it
  569. moparisthebest while .com *could* falsely sign a bad key, it's crazy public to do so
  570. ralphm Because many comments are bad, that doesn't mean all of them are. If you take your position to the extreme, you can stop reading on the internet. Or anywhere, I suppose.
  571. moparisthebest basically impossible to do targetted attacks with DNSSEC
  572. ralphm moparisthebest: so I understand you trust the security aspects of DNSSEC itself?
  573. Zash HN seems to think that anything that isn't HTTPS needs to die. If it's not JSON over HTTPS, then why even care?
  574. moparisthebest ralphm, I think by itself it's better than the current CA setup we have now, but combining them would be even better
  575. Zash And in that world, where HTTPS protects you from everything harmful, there's no need for anything else. DNSSEC is useless. IPv6 is useless.
  576. Ge0rG moparisthebest: I think you can do a targeted attack if you have control over a TLD zone and mitm your victim.
  577. Zash And XMPP is the most useless thing of all, it's not even JSON over HTTPS. Why even bother!
  578. Zash SCRAM is also useless. Why not just send plain text passwords over HTTPS? Can't be more perfectly secure than that!
  579. Seve True dat
  580. Ge0rG I think the biggest selling point of DNSSEC got lost with letsencrypt.
  581. Zash Ge0rG: The price? Yes.
  582. Zash Let's Encrypt also killed CAcert.org
  583. Ge0rG (you can get a free trusted certificate for your deployment)
  584. Ge0rG Zash: that's not true. CACert perfectly killed itself.
  585. Zash And they're well on their way to killing all other CAs and becoming ultimate gatekeeper for everything. Especially since everything must be HTTPS
  586. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  587. Ge0rG Zash: you need to take your depression medicine! 😜
  588. moparisthebest Ge0rG: moparisthebest: I think you can do a targeted attack if you have control over a TLD zone and mitm your victim.
  589. moparisthebest if they also control a CA key and the victim isn't using DNS-over-$something_secure ???
  590. moparisthebest that seems like a pretty hard attack to pull off
  591. Ge0rG The second biggest selling point in my eyes would be secure delivery of client certificates, eg. for S/MIME
  592. Ge0rG moparisthebest: DANE can override Root CA trust. Any nobody is using Do# yet
  593. moparisthebest android ships by default using DNS-over-TLS so that's basically the opposite of nobody
  594. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  595. Ge0rG The biggest problem of DNSSEC isn't browsers but lack of support on TLDs and in resolvers
  596. Ge0rG moparisthebest: android 8?
  597. ralphm Regarding the targeted attacks, doesn't that depend on who the attacker is? E.g. I think state level actors get more control if you depends on DNSSEC. This problem also exists in the current public CA system, with countries like mine running an included CA. I'm not saying this is bad per se, but interesting if you're making threat models.
  598. moparisthebest I *think* it started with android 9
  599. Ge0rG So it's like 0.5% of Android devices? 🤣🤣
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  601. Ge0rG ralphm: yes, your conclusion is right. However, with certificate transparency, things have shifted again
  602. moparisthebest ralphm, I'm saying for a targeted attack with current CA setup, the attacker needs to MITM you and have *any* CA cert, with DNSSEC in the mix they'd need the DNSSEC root key, plus to compromise all the DNS servers from root all the way down to your domain, plus a CA cert
  603. ralphm Ge0rG: for CAs, yes
  604. moparisthebest it's just substantially harder
  605. ralphm moparisthebest: hence my reference to state actors
  606. Ge0rG moparisthebest: they only need to compromise one level of DNS on your domain path...
  607. moparisthebest and yes certificate transparency fixes a bit of that, but iirc only browsers check that?
  608. Ge0rG moparisthebest: if you have the signing key for domain.com from the crappy DNS cloud provider, you only need to mitm the victim
  609. ralphm Well certificate transparency fixes that for future occurrences by the same CA maybe, not individual cases.
  610. zinid moparisthebest: I think anyone can monitor CT logs?
  611. moparisthebest I pin the public key of my resolvers so owning any CA key won't help, they'd have to hack the specific provider
  612. Zash CT for DNSSEC. There, all problems with DNSSEC solved!! :)
  613. moparisthebest zinid, right but if you steal a CA cert and sign your own certificates those aren't in the CT logs, you have to check if it's in the CT log when deciding whether to trust it or not, I think only browsers do his right now
  614. ralphm I also like to point out that many companies have internal CAs to issue their own certs to be trusted. Once you include that in your list of trusted CAs, it also means that they can issue and thus MitM all the things.
  615. zinid stealing CA certificate sounds like a thing 😂
  616. ralphm Unless you have some form of cert/key/CA pinning
  617. Ge0rG ralphm: and they often do traffic inspection
  618. Ge0rG ralphm: luckily for them, modern browsers don't enforce pining if the server certificate is signed by a locally installed CA
  619. Ge0rG So corporate mitm still works
  620. Ge0rG Did I just spoil your day?
  621. ralphm No, I refused to install the company CA
  622. ralphm (or software that could do that)
  623. Ge0rG Not something one can typically do on company provided gear
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  625. ralphm Yes, this is another thing I managed to avoid for all employers so far. All of my machines (usually ThinkPads) came fresh out of the vendor-sealed box.
  626. Ge0rG Only intercepted by the government once.
  627. moparisthebest I just wipe the corporate windows image and install linux :/
  628. moparisthebest had a friendly sysadmin get me a virtualbox corporate windows image to use for skype etc
  629. moparisthebest he's gone now though, don't know what I'll do when the forced windows 10 upgrade comes around :'(
  630. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  631. ralphm Upgrade the virtualbox?
  632. moparisthebest upgrade the windows 7 running in the virtualbox
  633. ralphm Or backup/clean your drive, have them install it, then convert the disk to a virtual one?
  634. moparisthebest I tried all ways of doing that before and none would work, always windows BSOD after conversion
  635. moparisthebest it might be different now though, that was windows 7 and also years ago
  636. Ge0rG Cool, Firefox now implemented HTTP upload! https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2019/03/12/introducing-firefox-send-providing-free-file-transfers-while-keeping-your-personal-information-private/
  637. ralphm Make sure you keep hold of your license key
  638. ralphm Ge0rG: nice
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  649. zinid Ge0rG, at what servers get those files uploaded?
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  652. Ge0rG the Firefox cloud servers!
  653. moparisthebest firefox has DoH implemented too I think
  654. moparisthebest just not on by default, yet
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  657. zinid Ge0rG, wow such private, much security
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  662. zinid Why does Firefox Send require JavaScript? Firefox Send uses JavaScript to: Encrypt and decrypt files locally on the client instead of the server. Render the user interface. Manage translations on the website into various different languages. Collect data to help us improve Send in accordance with our Terms & Privacy. <------- PRIVACY
  663. mimi89999 has joined
  664. moparisthebest I was going to say firefox *probably* encrypts locally, that's how their sync stuff works, it's pretty good
  665. moparisthebest unlike google who's entire business model is scraping all your info
  666. zinid so far google's business model works better 😀
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  669. moparisthebest for google, not for users :)
  670. zinid right, that's _google's_ business model, not yours 😀
  671. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  672. zinid but collecting data?
  673. zinid "we collect your DNA to improve our DNA analyzer"
  674. jonas’ send us your nudes to help us protect them! #facebook
  675. bowlofeggs i hate the "are you a human" google things because you are helping them train their AI bots for free
  676. bowlofeggs they should pay me for doing that
  677. jonas’ they "pay" you by allowing you to access content \o/ (sarcasm)
  678. bowlofeggs well these things are often used by non-google sites
  679. bowlofeggs but yeah i catch your drift ☺
  680. bowlofeggs there was a planet money where they talked about the inequity between what google makes per user and what they give that user for that data
  681. bowlofeggs iirc, google makes something around $1200 per year per user
  682. bowlofeggs and in exchange, that user gets… e-mail
  683. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  684. bowlofeggs anyways, they interviewed some economist who thinks that someone will eventualyl start to pay users to use the services, in actual cash
  685. bowlofeggs to compete
  686. bowlofeggs the only problem is it that it would require enormous capital to compete with google, and you'd be competing by undercutting them, which requires even more enormous capital
  687. bowlofeggs well, "only" problem
  688. bowlofeggs there's also the network effect too of course
  689. zinid "also"
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  691. ralphm Imagine they'd be good at doing social.
  692. Zash Google? Haven't they repeatedly failed at "social" things?
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  694. zinid bowlofeggs, paying money to users is a huge taxing problem, especially when users come from many different countries, not sure how the tax will be administered in any particular country
  695. bowlofeggs true
  696. bowlofeggs so yeah, lots of problems ☺
  697. bowlofeggs but the larger point was that users are not getting a good deal
  698. moparisthebest they have plenty of users using them for free...
  699. moparisthebest I don't honestly know the solution there, it's easy enough for me to run xmpp+email etc for family, but if I get hit by a bus they'll all move back to gmail for sure :'(
  700. moparisthebest at least until my kids get older and I train them >:)
  701. bowlofeggs well you could pay a company to host you, that has acceptable ToS
  702. bowlofeggs the key is that the company should make money from being paid for the service, instead of making money by selling data
  703. bowlofeggs obvs, you have to trust them too
  704. bowlofeggs but even if you self host, you have to trust the vendors for the software and hardware you use to do that
  705. bowlofeggs so you can't escape trust, it's just a matter of where you want to draw the line
  706. ralphm Zash: my point?
  707. bowlofeggs i personally self host, but it's more because i find it kind of satisfying
  708. moparisthebest also legally at least in the USA if your data is on a 3rd party server, the govt can access it any time without a warrant or notice, for any reason
  709. bowlofeggs it's sort of the proof of how cool open source software is ☺
  710. bowlofeggs moparisthebest, indeed
  711. moparisthebest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_doctrine
  712. moparisthebest so just from a principle point of view, you have to self-host on a server in your house :'(
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  763. Alex hey guys, anyone ready for our member meeting?
  764. Zash Hey!
  765. Guus O/
  766. moparisthebest been waiting for it all day
  767. Alex LOL
  768. Alex okay
  769. Alex bangs the gavel
  770. Alex here is our Agenda for today: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2019-03-12
  771. Alex 1) Call for Quorum
  772. Alex as you can see 31 members voted via memberbot. So we have a quorum
  773. Alex 2) Items Subject to a Vote
  774. Alex new and returning members. You can see all applicants here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q1_2019
  775. Alex 3) Opportunity for XSF Members to Vote in the Meeting
  776. Alex anyone here who has not voted yet and wants to vote here in the meeting?
  777. Alex looks like nobody want to vote in the meeting
  778. Alex then I can start counting and work on the result
  779. Guus 🥁
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  781. Alex 4) Announcement of Voting Results
  782. Alex When you reload the page you can see the results: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2019-03-12#Announcement_of_Voting_Results
  783. Alex All applicants were accepted
  784. Alex All Reappliers except of Bartlomiej Gorny were accepted
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  787. Ge0rG Yay!
  788. Alex 5) Any Other Business?
  789. Neustradamus Thanks!
  790. Alex and congrats to everyone ;-)
  791. Ge0rG Congrats to everyone but the person who didn't fill out the application
  792. Alex 6) Formal Adjournment
  793. Alex I motion that we adjourn
  794. Zash 👍
  795. Guus Seconded
  796. Alex bangs the gavel
  797. Guus Thank you once again, Alex
  798. Alex I am travelling right now. Willl send out the minute sand create the application page for the next quarter asap
  799. rtq3 has joined
  800. Guus Alex: thanks, safe travels!
  801. Zash Thanks, Alex.
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  818. Syndace Weee thanks :D Happy to be an official member now!
  819. Guus Welcome to the dark side
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  821. Zash Welcome to the sharp side, here's your angles: <<<<<
  822. Ge0rG Zash: we also need the closing ones!
  823. Zash Just turn them around! :)
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  827. Neustradamus Syndace: Welcome :)
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  833. zinid > All applicants were accepted 🤣🤣🤣
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  871. ralphm Interesting blog post + comments (hi Zash)
  872. ralphm news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19370281
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  880. ralphm Surprisingly positive about (and reminiscent of) XMPP.
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  884. Ge0rG Represented by pidgin.
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  905. Zash Kev, my server tells me your cert expired
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