XSF Discussion - 2019-03-15

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08:36:49 Guus Seve, this was your idea? https://trello.com/c/3TyQIUUq/335-post-an-unpaid-job-for-compliance-badges-at-osd
08:37:05 Guus I'm not sure if we actually need to discuss it.
08:37:07 Guus Just do it?
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08:38:36 Guus ~~We already agreed to find a designer to volunteer for this. Sadly, nyco's first choice fell through, but that should require us to re-discuss finding someone else.~~ ✎
08:39:29 Kev +not?
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08:39:47 Guus *facepalm*
08:39:51 ralphm Haha
08:39:53 ralphm And yes
08:39:56 Guus We already agreed to find a designer to volunteer for this. Sadly, nyco's first choice fell through, but that should not require us to re-discuss finding someone else. ✏
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08:40:45 Guus is off to find more coffee.
08:43:50 Guus It's odd that I often make errors with regard to negation (missing 'not'). That happens to me in writing as well as in code.
08:45:50 ralphm Anyway 3 is quorum
08:45:56 mtavares Guus: don't use the not. :)
08:46:07 Seve Guus: that's because you are very positive!
08:46:40 mtavares boolean algebra is always fun.. specially when dealing with one of those business if conditions for special cases with 10 or more clauses.
08:48:36 Guus > Guus: don't use the not. 🙂 My kids would agree with you.
08:51:09 mtavares Guus, don't your kids keep saying no to you too? 'cause mine sure does and he's only 2. I don't think it will improve with age.
08:51:47 Guus Them telling me 'no' has less impact for them than me telling them 'no' 🙂
08:51:56 Guus but you're right 🙂
08:52:13 mtavares :) whish I wasn't.
08:52:52 Guus My three year old the other day: "Mommy, I have a great idea and you cannot say no!"
08:53:00 Guus 😍
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08:53:39 Guus (the 'great idea' was candy-related)
08:53:50 Kev As all great ideas are.
08:53:56 mtavares lol
08:54:26 mtavares had to deal with a trantum yesterday because dinner was not candy. :/
08:55:20 Guus hehe. You'll learn to get more creative with that over time. My sister got her kids to eat burritos by starting to refer to them as 'mexican pancakes'.
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08:57:01 mtavares and broccoli are trees. :)
08:58:02 ralphm mtavares: what about tertiary logic?
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08:58:35 mtavares ralphm, what do you mean?
08:59:13 ralphm https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-valued_logic
09:00:21 mtavares but how do you use that with kids? two values based logic is alreay hard to explain..
09:01:01 ralphm But kids will invariably not accept just two values.
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09:02:40 Guus which is a good base for outside-the-box-thinking.
09:03:00 Guus When offered a choice, go for the unnamed option. 🙂
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09:08:06 ralphm informative_utterances_Lack_of_competence_or_Pragmatic_Tolerance
09:08:50 ralphm https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328385759_Why_some_children_accept_under-informative_utterances_Lack_of_competence_or_Pragmatic_Tolerance
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09:13:15 mtavares :) will try that.
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10:07:52 Ge0rG We've been optimizing for the wrong use cases all along... https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/03/hottest-chat-app-teens-google-docs/584857/
10:11:24 Ge0rG I've been passing diskettes with text files to my school mates back in 1996. History seems to repeat itself.
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10:45:10 Seve Guus, would it make sense to have another list in trello like 'To take action' or something? Like a to-do list, I wanted to add the unpaid job for the badges somewhere so I know I have to do it :D
10:46:20 ralphm Seve: like Commitment for week ahead?
10:46:46 ralphm Although there is an item on it for jonas’, and has been for weeks now :-_
10:46:49 ralphm :-)
10:46:59 Seve ralphm, that's why I was not sure haha
10:47:16 Seve Ok, will move it there, ralphm. Thanks
10:47:23 ralphm Maybe we should just rename it to 'Commitments'
10:47:44 Seve Sounds good!
10:47:47 Andrew Nenakhov On that Google docs chat: too bad Wave died. I liked it a lot.
10:48:23 Seve Me too! Too bad I didn't have an excuse to use it, but I liked it so much.
10:54:05 Zash Nice tombstone it got tho http://incubator.apache.org/projects/wave.html
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10:57:52 Ge0rG https://killedbygoogle.com/ would be the better tombstone reference
10:57:59 ralphm Andrew Nenakhov: did you like the operational transforms or its XMPP interface?
10:58:33 Zash Who looked at the Wawe protocol other than me?
10:59:53 ralphm Me, around the Let's Federate this meeting at Google HQ, timed to coincide with OSCon and the XMPP Summit there.
11:00:05 ralphm Got the t-shirt. Were a bunch of there.
11:00:16 ralphm I was not impressed with the protocol.
11:00:28 ralphm But it was really just one guy on that.
11:01:59 Zash It's a pretty good argument for the actual wire protocol not mattering all that much for the end user experience.
11:08:20 Andrew Nenakhov ralphm, I liked how it worked. We used it for great results while developing new specifications. Currently, for example, we use Google docs to work on our protocols, and comments there kinda lacking. Wave would be better. But the downside is that to not get the wave cluttered you need a disciplined team who all agree to follow some guidelines, like not flood on topmost level of wave
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11:09:09 Andrew Nenakhov Didn't really look at the protocol. I got an impression that it's modified XMPP and uses basic same stanza concept
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12:53:36 ralphm https://web.archive.org/web/20180112171345/http://www.waveprotocol.org/protocol/draft-protocol-specs/draft-protocol-spec
12:53:57 ralphm So based on XMPP PubSub, but weirdly. E.g. the notification events don't seem to have a node attribute.
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12:55:16 Zash You could argue that the node is nil or the empty string...
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12:55:43 Zash PubSub event notificationts with receipts?
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12:58:16 ralphm The only way to have no node attribute in notifications, is if you use the concept of Collections. Then this would come from the so-called root node.
12:58:26 ralphm However, that'd also require SHIM headers to be present.
13:00:25 ralphm So that you know which actual leaf node the notification was for, and to disambiguate different types of payload. I.e. the same node cannot have items with payloads of which the main element have different namespaces.
13:00:47 Zash I think there once was a discussion about what it meant to have node="" vs no node attribute, although in the context of XEP 30.
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13:01:12 ralphm And then there's the weird request response semantics that they grafted onto this.
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13:01:32 ralphm Zash: well, there should be no difference.
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19:56:14 fippo can someone check the standards@ moderation queue please? looking for a message from someone with implementation feedback about xep-0353 (-:
19:57:13 ralphm That you has been sent? I did see your message earlier this week.
19:57:38 ralphm That you know has been sent?
19:57:57 fippo ralphm: no, someone from genesys. copied me on it so i got it but it didn't show up in the archives
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19:58:47 ralphm That's the company that does customer-chat stuff, right?
19:59:37 fippo callcenters. lance was also cc'd
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20:00:11 ralphm Indeed haven't seen a message to that end. Kev? intosi?
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