Ge0rGGuus: can we please add a bunch of huge, dangerous-looking, red crosses to the Pidgin line on our clients list? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19423513
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HolgerThe context was my claim that a monolithic spec won't help with fragmentation as the latter is just the result of missing manpower on the implementation side.
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Ge0rGrelevant sub-thread link is https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19421634
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ralphmGe0rG: fwif, Matthew here says that the authors of such clients themselves deemed them unfinished.
ralphmI wasn't aware you are one of Pidgin's authors.
Ge0rGralphm: I'm not. I'm from the "Pidgin is damaging the XMPP ecosystem and should be banned" fraction.
Ge0rGI have no idea of how the Pidgin authors perceive their standing re XMPP, except for overhearing their refusal to acccept Compliance Suite 2019 as a task for GSoC.
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ralphmI think we've had this discussion. As much as I might agree about the quality is the thing, and its, eh, value as an antique, it is still an XMPP client no matter how hard you argue against this.
Ge0rGI'm also sad that our Compliance Badges never materialized.
ralphmGe0rG: design them and they will
Guus<backspace><backspace><backspace><backspace> what he said.
Guusalso: what he said.
Guusfeel free to create some 🙂
Ge0rGyou _really_ don't want _me_ to design them.
Guusthat's what everyone says.
Guus(specificly, references to themselves, not to you 😉 )
Ge0rGI made an app logo that looks like a horny penis (according to a review on Google Play).
ralphmGe0rG: or force^Hcoerce^Hask somebody to do it on your behalf.
Guusbut you can arrange for them to be created just as well as anyone else.
ralphmGe0rG: counterpoint Slack
Holgerralphm: He says the point of a monolithic protocol is just that client devs clearly see what's missing from their software. While I still believe XMPP devs are simply mostly time to implement something rather than being confused about what the heck to implement.
Guusif only by doing this: https://trello.com/c/3TyQIUUq/335-post-an-unpaid-job-for-compliance-badges-at-osd
Ge0rGralphm: Slack is a counterpoint to what?
HolgerBasically it's just a typical forum rant where he refuses to admit that the real problem is manpower, not XEPs.
GuusHolger I think it's a combination, probably.
ralphmHolger: I understand that point, he's made it before. It has merit and downsides.
HolgerI.e. he refuses to admit that I'm right and he's wrong. Very typical issue on forums.
Ge0rGGuus: so nobody posted it there yet?
ralphmAnd yes, Matrix has the young-project advantage.
GuusGe0rG I didn't check, but I'd have thought that if that happened, it'd be mentioned on that Trello card
Guus(and/or the card would've been removed)
GuusSeve did you get around to posting that?
HolgerAnd sure he has a point about the XEP mess being inconsistent and confusing.
ralphmGe0rG: people have opinions on what the new Slack logo represents.
SeveGuus, the badges job? I plan to do it during this week, still need to check what we discussed so I can ask for something specific
ralphmHolger: maybe. In theory our policy is rather clear, we have Final and Draft standards. Maybe more of them should be Final.
Holgerralphm: Yes but in practice the answer to the question "how do I implement avatars" isn't obvious.
Ge0rGit doesn't look too hard to fill that job posting. Do we have a volunteer contact person from The Board?
Holgerralphm: And this is not a temporary issue, it's been that way for many years, and various other such questions. And I do think that's problematic when you want to convince a new client dev to use XMPP.
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GuusGe0rG no. You just volunteered, I think.
SeveGe0rG, I created that card because we couldn't get a designer
Ge0rGGuus: roger wilco
Ge0rGalso assumes he is now volunteered to post that job
SeveSo my idea to pursue the badges thing (which I was not super enthusiast with it) was to post a job there and see if we get some interest there
ralphmHolger: yes, people have argued this many times, I happen to agree, yet nobody has taken the time to actually work on this problem.
SeveHolger, something you would do so good :D wink wink
GuusSeve - Ge0rG is saying he can do the job posting, unless you want to do it yourself.
ralphmAnd/or somehow expects others (like Board/Council) to do this for them.
SeveAhh ok Guus
SeveGe0rG, it is fine by me, go ahead :)
Guusbrainfart: should we start paying people to do tasks like that? As in, hire/employ people?
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Holgerralphm, Seve: Well I mentioned before that I'd be motivated to participate in a group that works on cleaning up the mess. The problem I see is that our workflows (as spec'ed in 0001 and cultivated over time) don't make it easy to form such a group and provide them the necessary means. I certainly don't expect Council to be this group, as Council's job is, by definition, approving/rejecting individual XEPs rather than working towards a consistent set of extensions.
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GuusHolger, what exactly in 0001 in stopping you? I'd be happy to try and remove those blockages for you
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ralphmWriting auxillary documentation requires no interaction, approval, or anything.
Guus(also, just getting a bunch of people together to do the work and make suggestions doesn't need 0001-type approval)
HolgerI get where our rules are coming from, and I do appreciate how they try to make sure no interested party can 'take over' the protocol without some kind of community consensus.
ralphmThat's not my intent anyway.
HolgerBut they did result in the current mess and do make it hard to elect a group of a few people and provide them the means of cleaning it up.
pep.I'm not entirely sure this is the job of the XSF tbh, I'd say that's up to something like the xdf/jsf/whatever. We can improve discoverability of the XEPs by tagging, or search engines and whatnots, but in the end what I think is blocking is recommendations on which XEPs to use for what purpose
ralphmWhile the XSF has an important role in the community, it is *not* the end all and be all of things XMPP.
pep."There's N XEPs for this purpose, use _this one_"
pep.("and _like this_")
GuusHolger why don't you simply get started with some rough drafts of what you envision, maybe on the wiki, or somewhere else.
ralphmYou can start a documentation project like this right now, giving guidance on choice of certain specifications, code examples, etc.
HolgerWhile various people would like to see the XSF to engage in various other things such as marketing and whatnot, I'd like to see it sticking to specs. But I *do* think the XSF is the obvious party responsible for specs.
pep.ralphm, yes, there's already something started, the rest is lack of resources. (Note that I'm not complaining here)
HolgerOh well, I think I'm not gonna dive into this discussion again right now, sorry. I understand that I'm pretty alone with my viewpoint, that's fine. Maybe I'm just wrong.
pep.Holger, you're welcome to join and help :)
HolgerYes yes.
GuusHolger, fwiw, I don't think that there's much disagreement here.
ralphmHolger: where do you get the idea that I disagree?
pep.Holger, I think the XSF is the obvious party responsible for providing specs. I don't think it's the obvious party to recommend what specs to use among the many they provide
Holgerralphm: You're suggesting "writing auxillary documentation". I disagree this would solve our problem.
ralphmI just think the XSF is not, and should, be in your way to make this happen.
ralphmShould not
ralphmIf you want to carry this with out within the XSF, you can do so.
ralphmBut it is not required
GuusHolger: I think Ralphm nor me understand the issue that you're trying to make.
Ge0rGI'm also confused
GuusI'm very much in agreement with Ralph that I don't think that there should be anything in the XSF processes that should prevent you to do whatever it is you want to do.
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pep.Holger, I guess what the XSF can do about this is tagging XEPs, maybe, and providing some kind of smart search, I don't think it can do much more
pep.(https://xmpp.org/extensions/ this could probably be improved a bit towards this)
Ge0rGHolger: so what do you want done, specifically?
GuusHolger, specifically, what improvements would you like to see happen?
SeveMaybe it is not just writing some side information about how to do things, but actually modifying XEPs and so on?
Sevewaits for Holger
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HolgerHehe the "not going into this right now" part doesn't work out well ;-)
HolgerDistracted by work right now sorry.
HolgerGonna try to avoid ranting while being busy in the future.
Guusok, fair enough - but if there's something that can be done to improve things, I'd very much like to hear that suggestion.
SeveHolger, haha :)
No worries we are patient, will be here when you are ready again
Guusif only to be able to thoroughly disagree 😉
ralphmI think the pages at https://xmpp.org/about/technology-overview.html and https://xmpp.org/uses/ might be good starting points.
Ge0rGthe pages below https://xmpp.org/uses/ need some serious work
GuusGe0rG I invite you to work on it as soon as you finish that OSD job posting 😉
Guus> if only to be able to thoroughly disagree 😉
I kind of regret typing that, for fear it could be misunderstood as anything but being a joke. I truly welcome suggestions for improvement.
Ge0rGGuus: let me fire up my time machine, travel three months into the past and start!
Ge0rG*zwoooosh*
Ge0rGhttps://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/490
GuusI see that the level of sarcasm hasn't changed in those three months! 😉
Guusas an aside: do you still want a listing on igniterealtime?
Ge0rGGuus: I've had a very hard time convincing my employer, so it's currently on hold.
GuusI'd love to see more entries on that list - yours would be very much welcome.
Guusok - and you're not in a position to do this as a freelancer?
Ge0rGGuus: it needs to fit our long-term strategy, which we don't have yet. And it needs to have more than one person backing it
Guusah, requirements to adhere to definitions that do not exist!
Ge0rGGuus: I'm a full-time employed IT-sec consultant, and my freelance time is what remains after that, my OSS coding, and private life.
GuusGe0rG I don't expect that you'd get much full-time job offerings through that page.
Guus(and if so, you could always decline them, or redirect them)
Ge0rGGuus: I'm not taking freelance jobs, and it might be a bit dishonest to advertise me as a freelancer and then to redirect all requests to my employer.
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Ge0rGand making it official requires at least semi-formal support
Ge0rGalso being listed there as a freelancer requires (legally) me telling my employer about it.
GuusI ment redirecting it to other community members, but, sure.
Ge0rGGuus: I'm not sure what the point of that would be.
GuusI'm in no way suggesting you should do something behind the back of your employer.
GuusGe0rG the point would be to help raise paid support for Smack
Ge0rGGuus: I'm currently in a sad situation regarding that, and I hope I will be able to resolve that before summer
Guuswhich would help the ecosystem a lot.
Ge0rGI think there are two ways how I can motivate my employer. Either by providing a strong link to IT security (e.g. by leveraging one of the threat monitoring signalling XEPs), or to IoT
Ge0rGbut both are rather weak at this time
GuusI'm unsure how to help you there.
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Guusbest I can do is to offer to figure out if I can help you out with a legal vehicle, in case you ever want to walk a different path than your employer, in the future.
Ge0rGI need to submarine our company by hiring XMPP nerds who are also interested in IT-sec
Guusand/or find a customer.
Ge0rGor a research project
GuusSo many options! I'm amazed that it didn't happen yet!
Guusducks, runs.
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MattJSeems I missed a discussion this morning
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MattJ> 10:24:44 ralphm> You can start a documentation project like this right now, giving guidance on choice of certain specifications, code examples, etc.
MattJhttps://docs.modernxmpp.org/
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ralphmSee, it can be done :-)
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ralphmI forgot about this effort. Thanks for that, MattJ.
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Guusmaybe blogpost about that on xsf?
Guuson xmpp.org, I mean.
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MattJGuus, I have a draft blog post, I think it's a good idea
MattJJust some things I want to tidy up first
Guusexcellent!
Guusalso
Guuscan we pretty please have a webchat client on xmpp.org?
MattJYes please
Guusthere has been lots of discussion on this in https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/101
MattJWe used to have some, but they got unpopular due to random passers-by spamming
Guuslet's just slap converse on there
MattJWe have a bunch of tools against that these days, a bunch of XMPP projects have open web-accessible rooms with no major issues
ralphmMattJ: I think you already have the ability to do this, right?
MattJYep
MattJI'll take it on (or Zash)
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Guusthat would be awesome, thanks
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Ge0rGGuus, Seve, ralphm: https://op-co.de/tmp/osd-job-description-2019-03.html (sorry, got interrupted by real work)
ZashHm?
GuusGe0rG thanks! Looks great. I've got one suggestion.
Ge0rGGuus: this is why I'm posting it here :)
GuusI'd replace this one sentence with two distinct ones: "To improve the situation, we have created a Compliance Suite that provides different use cases and want to provide a set of badges that developers can attach to their clients and servers to make them more attractive and more discoverable to users."
Ge0rGGuus: Yeah, I tend to write overlong sentences. Do you have a specific split in mind?
GuusI'd make it more explicit that creation of the set of badges is the purpose of the job posting.
Guusmight be as easy as: "To improve the situation, we have created a Compliance Suite that provides different use cases.<FULLSTOP, new paragraph>. To improve visibility of these suites, we want to provide a set of badges that developers can attach to their clients and servers to make them more attractive and more discoverable to users."
Ge0rGGuus: updated the wording
Guusah, yes, that also works
Guus+1 go for it etc
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Ge0rGZash: you wanted to comment as well?
ralphmI think additionally...
pep.I'm not sure I like the year in there, but I don't want to revive the topic just now.. (busy with work)
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ralphmIt may have to state explicitly that the full ownership of the rights to the created works lie with the XSF.
ZashGe0rG: That was in response to MattJ
Ge0rGralphm: that's a good ppint.
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ZashGe0rG: Text seems fine to me after a first reading.
ralphmThis allows us to modify it for subsequent editions, and control their use.
Ge0rGralphm:
> To make it possible for the XSF to take measures against abuse of the badges by incompliant implementations, the XSF would need all exploitation rights on the created artwork. The artist should be ready to assign all those rights to the XSF.
ralphmGe0rG: you can totally reassign copyright, or author's rights in countries like ours, especially if works were made to order.
ralphmWhat you can typically not reassign are moral rights.
ralphmLike the ability to say *you* created the work.
Ge0rGyou cannot reasign copyright where I live :>
Ge0rGIANAL, wording suggestions are welcome
ZashCopyright is usually two-part, as ralphm says
ralphmhttps://xmpp.org/about/xsf/ipr-policy
ralphmis what we have coded up for XEPs
NeustradamusA long time ago, I have sent this "logo" for the XMPP planet: https://planet.jabber.org/images/xmpp.png
Guusbah, my client is misbehaving. Apologies for out-of-context / duplicate messages.
ralphmGe0rG: you totally can as I described, Dutch law is not very different from German law in that respect.
ralphmNeustradamus: I don't see how this is relevant. We're talking about Compliance Suites, and Planet Jabber is not a function of the XSF.
GuusWithout needing to go into the details of what is possible under law: the text as-is looks ok to me.
Ge0rGralphm: I've changed the wording, do you approve?
Ge0rG(reload the above link)
ralphmGuus: indeed, in many jurisdictions things are different. This is probably why Lawrence Lessig was involved with our IPR policy. I'm sure Peter Saint-André has more details on this.
ralphmI think so yes
GuusI really don't want more details on this right now 🙂
Ge0rGOkay, I'm going to post the job then.
GuusGe0rG: thanks for doing this.
Ge0rGI also noticed that we have some naming issues in the CS. What if you only implement https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0412.html#core - are you an "Advanced Core Server"? A "Core Core Client"?
Ge0rGWhat if you implement IM _and_ Mobile?
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Ge0rGDoes it make sense to have "Advanced|Core Mobile Web"?
Ge0rGAdvanced Mobile Web IM Client 2019 Plus Plus.
ralphmWith sugar on top.
Ge0rGAdvanced Mobile Web IM Client 2019 Plus Plus.
Ge0rGwhoops.
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GuusEven though you missed it, there was a related discussion about a pretty red pretty pretty car at the last XSF dinner...
Ge0rGPosted. Please make a note in https://trello.com/c/3TyQIUUq/335-post-an-unpaid-job-for-compliance-badges-at-osd
Guuscommented and archived the trello card
ralphmlovely small square clean antique red flowery Dutch wooden storage box
GuusSee?! _that's_ what happens when you feed him to much dame blanche
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SeveHey Ge0rG, I was not available until now. Looks super good, I'm really happy to pass that task to you, honestly :)
Please, let me know the url of the job post whenever you have it, so I can write something for the newsletter as well.
Again, thank you very much!
XSF Discussion - 2019-03-19