XSF Discussion - 2019-03-19

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  200. Ge0rG Guus: can we please add a bunch of huge, dangerous-looking, red crosses to the Pidgin line on our clients list? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19423513
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  205. Holger The context was my claim that a monolithic spec won't help with fragmentation as the latter is just the result of missing manpower on the implementation side.
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  207. Ge0rG relevant sub-thread link is https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19421634
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  235. ralphm Ge0rG: fwif, Matthew here says that the authors of such clients themselves deemed them unfinished.
  236. ralphm I wasn't aware you are one of Pidgin's authors.
  237. Ge0rG ralphm: I'm not. I'm from the "Pidgin is damaging the XMPP ecosystem and should be banned" fraction.
  238. Ge0rG I have no idea of how the Pidgin authors perceive their standing re XMPP, except for overhearing their refusal to acccept Compliance Suite 2019 as a task for GSoC.
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  240. ralphm I think we've had this discussion. As much as I might agree about the quality is the thing, and its, eh, value as an antique, it is still an XMPP client no matter how hard you argue against this.
  241. Ge0rG I'm also sad that our Compliance Badges never materialized.
  242. ralphm Ge0rG: design them and they will
  243. Guus <backspace><backspace><backspace><backspace> what he said.
  244. Guus also: what he said.
  245. Guus feel free to create some πŸ™‚
  246. Ge0rG you _really_ don't want _me_ to design them.
  247. Guus that's what everyone says.
  248. Guus (specificly, references to themselves, not to you πŸ˜‰ )
  249. Ge0rG I made an app logo that looks like a horny penis (according to a review on Google Play).
  250. ralphm Ge0rG: or force^Hcoerce^Hask somebody to do it on your behalf.
  251. Guus but you can arrange for them to be created just as well as anyone else.
  252. ralphm Ge0rG: counterpoint Slack
  253. Holger ralphm: He says the point of a monolithic protocol is just that client devs clearly see what's missing from their software. While I still believe XMPP devs are simply mostly time to implement something rather than being confused about what the heck to implement.
  254. Guus if only by doing this: https://trello.com/c/3TyQIUUq/335-post-an-unpaid-job-for-compliance-badges-at-osd
  255. Ge0rG ralphm: Slack is a counterpoint to what?
  256. Holger Basically it's just a typical forum rant where he refuses to admit that the real problem is manpower, not XEPs.
  257. Guus Holger I think it's a combination, probably.
  258. ralphm Holger: I understand that point, he's made it before. It has merit and downsides.
  259. Holger I.e. he refuses to admit that I'm right and he's wrong. Very typical issue on forums.
  260. Ge0rG Guus: so nobody posted it there yet?
  261. ralphm And yes, Matrix has the young-project advantage.
  262. Guus Ge0rG I didn't check, but I'd have thought that if that happened, it'd be mentioned on that Trello card
  263. Guus (and/or the card would've been removed)
  264. Guus Seve did you get around to posting that?
  265. Holger And sure he has a point about the XEP mess being inconsistent and confusing.
  266. ralphm Ge0rG: people have opinions on what the new Slack logo represents.
  267. Seve Guus, the badges job? I plan to do it during this week, still need to check what we discussed so I can ask for something specific
  268. ralphm Holger: maybe. In theory our policy is rather clear, we have Final and Draft standards. Maybe more of them should be Final.
  269. Holger ralphm: Yes but in practice the answer to the question "how do I implement avatars" isn't obvious.
  270. Ge0rG it doesn't look too hard to fill that job posting. Do we have a volunteer contact person from The Board?
  271. Holger ralphm: And this is not a temporary issue, it's been that way for many years, and various other such questions. And I do think that's problematic when you want to convince a new client dev to use XMPP.
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  273. Guus Ge0rG no. You just volunteered, I think.
  274. Seve Ge0rG, I created that card because we couldn't get a designer
  275. Ge0rG Guus: roger wilco
  276. Ge0rG also assumes he is now volunteered to post that job
  277. Seve So my idea to pursue the badges thing (which I was not super enthusiast with it) was to post a job there and see if we get some interest there
  278. ralphm Holger: yes, people have argued this many times, I happen to agree, yet nobody has taken the time to actually work on this problem.
  279. Seve Holger, something you would do so good :D wink wink
  280. Guus Seve - Ge0rG is saying he can do the job posting, unless you want to do it yourself.
  281. ralphm And/or somehow expects others (like Board/Council) to do this for them.
  282. Seve Ahh ok Guus
  283. Seve Ge0rG, it is fine by me, go ahead :)
  284. Guus brainfart: should we start paying people to do tasks like that? As in, hire/employ people?
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  287. Holger ralphm, Seve: Well I mentioned before that I'd be motivated to participate in a group that works on cleaning up the mess. The problem I see is that our workflows (as spec'ed in 0001 and cultivated over time) don't make it easy to form such a group and provide them the necessary means. I certainly don't expect Council to be this group, as Council's job is, by definition, approving/rejecting individual XEPs rather than working towards a consistent set of extensions.
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  289. Guus Holger, what exactly in 0001 in stopping you? I'd be happy to try and remove those blockages for you
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  291. ralphm Writing auxillary documentation requires no interaction, approval, or anything.
  292. Guus (also, just getting a bunch of people together to do the work and make suggestions doesn't need 0001-type approval)
  293. Holger I get where our rules are coming from, and I do appreciate how they try to make sure no interested party can 'take over' the protocol without some kind of community consensus.
  294. ralphm That's not my intent anyway.
  295. Holger But they did result in the current mess and do make it hard to elect a group of a few people and provide them the means of cleaning it up.
  296. pep. I'm not entirely sure this is the job of the XSF tbh, I'd say that's up to something like the xdf/jsf/whatever. We can improve discoverability of the XEPs by tagging, or search engines and whatnots, but in the end what I think is blocking is recommendations on which XEPs to use for what purpose
  297. ralphm While the XSF has an important role in the community, it is *not* the end all and be all of things XMPP.
  298. pep. "There's N XEPs for this purpose, use _this one_"
  299. pep. ("and _like this_")
  300. Guus Holger why don't you simply get started with some rough drafts of what you envision, maybe on the wiki, or somewhere else.
  301. ralphm You can start a documentation project like this right now, giving guidance on choice of certain specifications, code examples, etc.
  302. Holger While various people would like to see the XSF to engage in various other things such as marketing and whatnot, I'd like to see it sticking to specs. But I *do* think the XSF is the obvious party responsible for specs.
  303. pep. ralphm, yes, there's already something started, the rest is lack of resources. (Note that I'm not complaining here)
  304. Holger Oh well, I think I'm not gonna dive into this discussion again right now, sorry. I understand that I'm pretty alone with my viewpoint, that's fine. Maybe I'm just wrong.
  305. pep. Holger, you're welcome to join and help :)
  306. Holger Yes yes.
  307. Guus Holger, fwiw, I don't think that there's much disagreement here.
  308. ralphm Holger: where do you get the idea that I disagree?
  309. pep. Holger, I think the XSF is the obvious party responsible for providing specs. I don't think it's the obvious party to recommend what specs to use among the many they provide
  310. Holger ralphm: You're suggesting "writing auxillary documentation". I disagree this would solve our problem.
  311. ralphm I just think the XSF is not, and should, be in your way to make this happen.
  312. ralphm Should not
  313. ralphm If you want to carry this with out within the XSF, you can do so.
  314. ralphm But it is not required
  315. Guus Holger: I think Ralphm nor me understand the issue that you're trying to make.
  316. Ge0rG I'm also confused
  317. Guus I'm very much in agreement with Ralph that I don't think that there should be anything in the XSF processes that should prevent you to do whatever it is you want to do.
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  319. pep. Holger, I guess what the XSF can do about this is tagging XEPs, maybe, and providing some kind of smart search, I don't think it can do much more
  320. pep. (https://xmpp.org/extensions/ this could probably be improved a bit towards this)
  321. Ge0rG Holger: so what do you want done, specifically?
  322. Guus Holger, specifically, what improvements would you like to see happen?
  323. Seve Maybe it is not just writing some side information about how to do things, but actually modifying XEPs and so on?
  324. Seve waits for Holger
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  326. Holger Hehe the "not going into this right now" part doesn't work out well ;-)
  327. Holger Distracted by work right now sorry.
  328. Holger Gonna try to avoid ranting while being busy in the future.
  329. Guus ok, fair enough - but if there's something that can be done to improve things, I'd very much like to hear that suggestion.
  330. Seve Holger, haha :) No worries we are patient, will be here when you are ready again
  331. Guus if only to be able to thoroughly disagree πŸ˜‰
  332. ralphm I think the pages at https://xmpp.org/about/technology-overview.html and https://xmpp.org/uses/ might be good starting points.
  333. Ge0rG the pages below https://xmpp.org/uses/ need some serious work
  334. Guus Ge0rG I invite you to work on it as soon as you finish that OSD job posting πŸ˜‰
  335. Guus > if only to be able to thoroughly disagree πŸ˜‰ I kind of regret typing that, for fear it could be misunderstood as anything but being a joke. I truly welcome suggestions for improvement.
  336. Ge0rG Guus: let me fire up my time machine, travel three months into the past and start!
  337. Ge0rG *zwoooosh*
  338. Ge0rG https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/490
  339. Guus I see that the level of sarcasm hasn't changed in those three months! πŸ˜‰
  340. Guus as an aside: do you still want a listing on igniterealtime?
  341. Ge0rG Guus: I've had a very hard time convincing my employer, so it's currently on hold.
  342. Guus I'd love to see more entries on that list - yours would be very much welcome.
  343. Guus ok - and you're not in a position to do this as a freelancer?
  344. Ge0rG Guus: it needs to fit our long-term strategy, which we don't have yet. And it needs to have more than one person backing it
  345. Guus ah, requirements to adhere to definitions that do not exist!
  346. Ge0rG Guus: I'm a full-time employed IT-sec consultant, and my freelance time is what remains after that, my OSS coding, and private life.
  347. Guus Ge0rG I don't expect that you'd get much full-time job offerings through that page.
  348. Guus (and if so, you could always decline them, or redirect them)
  349. Ge0rG Guus: I'm not taking freelance jobs, and it might be a bit dishonest to advertise me as a freelancer and then to redirect all requests to my employer.
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  352. Ge0rG and making it official requires at least semi-formal support
  353. Ge0rG also being listed there as a freelancer requires (legally) me telling my employer about it.
  354. Guus I ment redirecting it to other community members, but, sure.
  355. Ge0rG Guus: I'm not sure what the point of that would be.
  356. Guus I'm in no way suggesting you should do something behind the back of your employer.
  357. Guus Ge0rG the point would be to help raise paid support for Smack
  358. Ge0rG Guus: I'm currently in a sad situation regarding that, and I hope I will be able to resolve that before summer
  359. Guus which would help the ecosystem a lot.
  360. Ge0rG I think there are two ways how I can motivate my employer. Either by providing a strong link to IT security (e.g. by leveraging one of the threat monitoring signalling XEPs), or to IoT
  361. Ge0rG but both are rather weak at this time
  362. Guus I'm unsure how to help you there.
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  364. Guus best I can do is to offer to figure out if I can help you out with a legal vehicle, in case you ever want to walk a different path than your employer, in the future.
  365. Ge0rG I need to submarine our company by hiring XMPP nerds who are also interested in IT-sec
  366. Guus and/or find a customer.
  367. Ge0rG or a research project
  368. Guus So many options! I'm amazed that it didn't happen yet!
  369. Guus ducks, runs.
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  385. MattJ Seems I missed a discussion this morning
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  387. MattJ > 10:24:44 ralphm> You can start a documentation project like this right now, giving guidance on choice of certain specifications, code examples, etc.
  388. MattJ https://docs.modernxmpp.org/
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  391. ralphm See, it can be done :-)
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  394. ralphm I forgot about this effort. Thanks for that, MattJ.
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  397. Guus maybe blogpost about that on xsf?
  398. Guus on xmpp.org, I mean.
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  401. MattJ Guus, I have a draft blog post, I think it's a good idea
  402. MattJ Just some things I want to tidy up first
  403. Guus excellent!
  404. Guus also
  405. Guus can we pretty please have a webchat client on xmpp.org?
  406. MattJ Yes please
  407. Guus there has been lots of discussion on this in https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/101
  408. MattJ We used to have some, but they got unpopular due to random passers-by spamming
  409. Guus let's just slap converse on there
  410. MattJ We have a bunch of tools against that these days, a bunch of XMPP projects have open web-accessible rooms with no major issues
  411. ralphm MattJ: I think you already have the ability to do this, right?
  412. MattJ Yep
  413. MattJ I'll take it on (or Zash)
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  422. Guus that would be awesome, thanks
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  452. Ge0rG Guus, Seve, ralphm: https://op-co.de/tmp/osd-job-description-2019-03.html (sorry, got interrupted by real work)
  453. Zash Hm?
  454. Guus Ge0rG thanks! Looks great. I've got one suggestion.
  455. Ge0rG Guus: this is why I'm posting it here :)
  456. Guus I'd replace this one sentence with two distinct ones: "To improve the situation, we have created a Compliance Suite that provides different use cases and want to provide a set of badges that developers can attach to their clients and servers to make them more attractive and more discoverable to users."
  457. Ge0rG Guus: Yeah, I tend to write overlong sentences. Do you have a specific split in mind?
  458. Guus I'd make it more explicit that creation of the set of badges is the purpose of the job posting.
  459. Guus might be as easy as: "To improve the situation, we have created a Compliance Suite that provides different use cases.<FULLSTOP, new paragraph>. To improve visibility of these suites, we want to provide a set of badges that developers can attach to their clients and servers to make them more attractive and more discoverable to users."
  460. Ge0rG Guus: updated the wording
  461. Guus ah, yes, that also works
  462. Guus +1 go for it etc
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  465. Ge0rG Zash: you wanted to comment as well?
  466. ralphm I think additionally...
  467. pep. I'm not sure I like the year in there, but I don't want to revive the topic just now.. (busy with work)
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  469. ralphm It may have to state explicitly that the full ownership of the rights to the created works lie with the XSF.
  470. Zash Ge0rG: That was in response to MattJ
  471. Ge0rG ralphm: that's a good ppint.
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  473. Zash Ge0rG: Text seems fine to me after a first reading.
  474. ralphm This allows us to modify it for subsequent editions, and control their use.
  475. Ge0rG ralphm: > To make it possible for the XSF to take measures against abuse of the badges by incompliant implementations, the XSF would need all exploitation rights on the created artwork. The artist should be ready to assign all those rights to the XSF.
  476. ralphm Some context https://web.archive.org/web/20060307012442/http://jabberpowered.org:80/guidelines.html
  477. Ge0rG (you cannot reasign copyright)
  478. ralphm Ge0rG: you can totally reassign copyright, or author's rights in countries like ours, especially if works were made to order.
  479. ralphm What you can typically not reassign are moral rights.
  480. ralphm Like the ability to say *you* created the work.
  481. Ge0rG you cannot reasign copyright where I live :>
  482. Ge0rG IANAL, wording suggestions are welcome
  483. Zash Copyright is usually two-part, as ralphm says
  484. ralphm https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/ipr-policy
  485. ralphm is what we have coded up for XEPs
  486. Neustradamus A long time ago, I have sent this "logo" for the XMPP planet: https://planet.jabber.org/images/xmpp.png
  487. Guus bah, my client is misbehaving. Apologies for out-of-context / duplicate messages.
  488. ralphm Ge0rG: you totally can as I described, Dutch law is not very different from German law in that respect.
  489. ralphm Neustradamus: I don't see how this is relevant. We're talking about Compliance Suites, and Planet Jabber is not a function of the XSF.
  490. Guus Without needing to go into the details of what is possible under law: the text as-is looks ok to me.
  491. Ge0rG ralphm: I've changed the wording, do you approve?
  492. Ge0rG (reload the above link)
  493. ralphm Guus: indeed, in many jurisdictions things are different. This is probably why Lawrence Lessig was involved with our IPR policy. I'm sure Peter Saint-AndrΓ© has more details on this.
  494. ralphm I think so yes
  495. Guus I really don't want more details on this right now πŸ™‚
  496. Ge0rG Okay, I'm going to post the job then.
  497. Guus Ge0rG: thanks for doing this.
  498. Ge0rG I also noticed that we have some naming issues in the CS. What if you only implement https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0412.html#core - are you an "Advanced Core Server"? A "Core Core Client"?
  499. Ge0rG What if you implement IM _and_ Mobile?
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  501. Ge0rG Does it make sense to have "Advanced|Core Mobile Web"?
  502. Ge0rG Advanced Mobile Web IM Client 2019 Plus Plus.
  503. ralphm With sugar on top.
  504. Ge0rG Advanced Mobile Web IM Client 2019 Plus Plus.
  505. Ge0rG whoops.
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  507. Guus Even though you missed it, there was a related discussion about a pretty red pretty pretty car at the last XSF dinner...
  508. Ge0rG Posted. Please make a note in https://trello.com/c/3TyQIUUq/335-post-an-unpaid-job-for-compliance-badges-at-osd
  509. Guus commented and archived the trello card
  510. ralphm lovely small square clean antique red flowery Dutch wooden storage box
  511. Guus See?! _that's_ what happens when you feed him to much dame blanche
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  518. Seve Hey Ge0rG, I was not available until now. Looks super good, I'm really happy to pass that task to you, honestly :) Please, let me know the url of the job post whenever you have it, so I can write something for the newsletter as well. Again, thank you very much!
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  521. Ge0rG Seve: sure, can do
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