XSF Discussion - 2019-03-19

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  200. Ge0rG

    Guus: can we please add a bunch of huge, dangerous-looking, red crosses to the Pidgin line on our clients list? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19423513

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  205. Holger

    The context was my claim that a monolithic spec won't help with fragmentation as the latter is just the result of missing manpower on the implementation side.

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  207. Ge0rG

    relevant sub-thread link is https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19421634

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  235. ralphm

    Ge0rG: fwif, Matthew here says that the authors of such clients themselves deemed them unfinished.

  236. ralphm

    I wasn't aware you are one of Pidgin's authors.

  237. Ge0rG

    ralphm: I'm not. I'm from the "Pidgin is damaging the XMPP ecosystem and should be banned" fraction.

  238. Ge0rG

    I have no idea of how the Pidgin authors perceive their standing re XMPP, except for overhearing their refusal to acccept Compliance Suite 2019 as a task for GSoC.

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  240. ralphm

    I think we've had this discussion. As much as I might agree about the quality is the thing, and its, eh, value as an antique, it is still an XMPP client no matter how hard you argue against this.

  241. Ge0rG

    I'm also sad that our Compliance Badges never materialized.

  242. ralphm

    Ge0rG: design them and they will

  243. Guus

    <backspace><backspace><backspace><backspace> what he said.

  244. Guus

    also: what he said.

  245. Guus

    feel free to create some πŸ™‚

  246. Ge0rG

    you _really_ don't want _me_ to design them.

  247. Guus

    that's what everyone says.

  248. Guus

    (specificly, references to themselves, not to you πŸ˜‰ )

  249. Ge0rG

    I made an app logo that looks like a horny penis (according to a review on Google Play).

  250. ralphm

    Ge0rG: or force^Hcoerce^Hask somebody to do it on your behalf.

  251. Guus

    but you can arrange for them to be created just as well as anyone else.

  252. ralphm

    Ge0rG: counterpoint Slack

  253. Holger

    ralphm: He says the point of a monolithic protocol is just that client devs clearly see what's missing from their software. While I still believe XMPP devs are simply mostly time to implement something rather than being confused about what the heck to implement.

  254. Guus

    if only by doing this: https://trello.com/c/3TyQIUUq/335-post-an-unpaid-job-for-compliance-badges-at-osd

  255. Ge0rG

    ralphm: Slack is a counterpoint to what?

  256. Holger

    Basically it's just a typical forum rant where he refuses to admit that the real problem is manpower, not XEPs.

  257. Guus

    Holger I think it's a combination, probably.

  258. ralphm

    Holger: I understand that point, he's made it before. It has merit and downsides.

  259. Holger

    I.e. he refuses to admit that I'm right and he's wrong. Very typical issue on forums.

  260. Ge0rG

    Guus: so nobody posted it there yet?

  261. ralphm

    And yes, Matrix has the young-project advantage.

  262. Guus

    Ge0rG I didn't check, but I'd have thought that if that happened, it'd be mentioned on that Trello card

  263. Guus

    (and/or the card would've been removed)

  264. Guus

    Seve did you get around to posting that?

  265. Holger

    And sure he has a point about the XEP mess being inconsistent and confusing.

  266. ralphm

    Ge0rG: people have opinions on what the new Slack logo represents.

  267. Seve

    Guus, the badges job? I plan to do it during this week, still need to check what we discussed so I can ask for something specific

  268. ralphm

    Holger: maybe. In theory our policy is rather clear, we have Final and Draft standards. Maybe more of them should be Final.

  269. Holger

    ralphm: Yes but in practice the answer to the question "how do I implement avatars" isn't obvious.

  270. Ge0rG

    it doesn't look too hard to fill that job posting. Do we have a volunteer contact person from The Board?

  271. Holger

    ralphm: And this is not a temporary issue, it's been that way for many years, and various other such questions. And I do think that's problematic when you want to convince a new client dev to use XMPP.

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  273. Guus

    Ge0rG no. You just volunteered, I think.

  274. Seve

    Ge0rG, I created that card because we couldn't get a designer

  275. Ge0rG

    Guus: roger wilco

  276. Ge0rG also assumes he is now volunteered to post that job

  277. Seve

    So my idea to pursue the badges thing (which I was not super enthusiast with it) was to post a job there and see if we get some interest there

  278. ralphm

    Holger: yes, people have argued this many times, I happen to agree, yet nobody has taken the time to actually work on this problem.

  279. Seve

    Holger, something you would do so good :D wink wink

  280. Guus

    Seve - Ge0rG is saying he can do the job posting, unless you want to do it yourself.

  281. ralphm

    And/or somehow expects others (like Board/Council) to do this for them.

  282. Seve

    Ahh ok Guus

  283. Seve

    Ge0rG, it is fine by me, go ahead :)

  284. Guus

    brainfart: should we start paying people to do tasks like that? As in, hire/employ people?

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  287. Holger

    ralphm, Seve: Well I mentioned before that I'd be motivated to participate in a group that works on cleaning up the mess. The problem I see is that our workflows (as spec'ed in 0001 and cultivated over time) don't make it easy to form such a group and provide them the necessary means. I certainly don't expect Council to be this group, as Council's job is, by definition, approving/rejecting individual XEPs rather than working towards a consistent set of extensions.

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  289. Guus

    Holger, what exactly in 0001 in stopping you? I'd be happy to try and remove those blockages for you

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  291. ralphm

    Writing auxillary documentation requires no interaction, approval, or anything.

  292. Guus

    (also, just getting a bunch of people together to do the work and make suggestions doesn't need 0001-type approval)

  293. Holger

    I get where our rules are coming from, and I do appreciate how they try to make sure no interested party can 'take over' the protocol without some kind of community consensus.

  294. ralphm

    That's not my intent anyway.

  295. Holger

    But they did result in the current mess and do make it hard to elect a group of a few people and provide them the means of cleaning it up.

  296. pep.

    I'm not entirely sure this is the job of the XSF tbh, I'd say that's up to something like the xdf/jsf/whatever. We can improve discoverability of the XEPs by tagging, or search engines and whatnots, but in the end what I think is blocking is recommendations on which XEPs to use for what purpose

  297. ralphm

    While the XSF has an important role in the community, it is *not* the end all and be all of things XMPP.

  298. pep.

    "There's N XEPs for this purpose, use _this one_"

  299. pep.

    ("and _like this_")

  300. Guus

    Holger why don't you simply get started with some rough drafts of what you envision, maybe on the wiki, or somewhere else.

  301. ralphm

    You can start a documentation project like this right now, giving guidance on choice of certain specifications, code examples, etc.

  302. Holger

    While various people would like to see the XSF to engage in various other things such as marketing and whatnot, I'd like to see it sticking to specs. But I *do* think the XSF is the obvious party responsible for specs.

  303. pep.

    ralphm, yes, there's already something started, the rest is lack of resources. (Note that I'm not complaining here)

  304. Holger

    Oh well, I think I'm not gonna dive into this discussion again right now, sorry. I understand that I'm pretty alone with my viewpoint, that's fine. Maybe I'm just wrong.

  305. pep.

    Holger, you're welcome to join and help :)

  306. Holger

    Yes yes.

  307. Guus

    Holger, fwiw, I don't think that there's much disagreement here.

  308. ralphm

    Holger: where do you get the idea that I disagree?

  309. pep.

    Holger, I think the XSF is the obvious party responsible for providing specs. I don't think it's the obvious party to recommend what specs to use among the many they provide

  310. Holger

    ralphm: You're suggesting "writing auxillary documentation". I disagree this would solve our problem.

  311. ralphm

    I just think the XSF is not, and should, be in your way to make this happen.

  312. ralphm

    Should not

  313. ralphm

    If you want to carry this with out within the XSF, you can do so.

  314. ralphm

    But it is not required

  315. Guus

    Holger: I think Ralphm nor me understand the issue that you're trying to make.

  316. Ge0rG

    I'm also confused

  317. Guus

    I'm very much in agreement with Ralph that I don't think that there should be anything in the XSF processes that should prevent you to do whatever it is you want to do.

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  319. pep.

    Holger, I guess what the XSF can do about this is tagging XEPs, maybe, and providing some kind of smart search, I don't think it can do much more

  320. pep.

    (https://xmpp.org/extensions/ this could probably be improved a bit towards this)

  321. Ge0rG

    Holger: so what do you want done, specifically?

  322. Guus

    Holger, specifically, what improvements would you like to see happen?

  323. Seve

    Maybe it is not just writing some side information about how to do things, but actually modifying XEPs and so on?

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  326. Holger

    Hehe the "not going into this right now" part doesn't work out well ;-)

  327. Holger

    Distracted by work right now sorry.

  328. Holger

    Gonna try to avoid ranting while being busy in the future.

  329. Guus

    ok, fair enough - but if there's something that can be done to improve things, I'd very much like to hear that suggestion.

  330. Seve

    Holger, haha :) No worries we are patient, will be here when you are ready again

  331. Guus

    if only to be able to thoroughly disagree πŸ˜‰

  332. ralphm

    I think the pages at https://xmpp.org/about/technology-overview.html and https://xmpp.org/uses/ might be good starting points.

  333. Ge0rG

    the pages below https://xmpp.org/uses/ need some serious work

  334. Guus

    Ge0rG I invite you to work on it as soon as you finish that OSD job posting πŸ˜‰

  335. Guus

    > if only to be able to thoroughly disagree πŸ˜‰ I kind of regret typing that, for fear it could be misunderstood as anything but being a joke. I truly welcome suggestions for improvement.

  336. Ge0rG

    Guus: let me fire up my time machine, travel three months into the past and start!

  337. Ge0rG


  338. Ge0rG


  339. Guus

    I see that the level of sarcasm hasn't changed in those three months! πŸ˜‰

  340. Guus

    as an aside: do you still want a listing on igniterealtime?

  341. Ge0rG

    Guus: I've had a very hard time convincing my employer, so it's currently on hold.

  342. Guus

    I'd love to see more entries on that list - yours would be very much welcome.

  343. Guus

    ok - and you're not in a position to do this as a freelancer?

  344. Ge0rG

    Guus: it needs to fit our long-term strategy, which we don't have yet. And it needs to have more than one person backing it

  345. Guus

    ah, requirements to adhere to definitions that do not exist!

  346. Ge0rG

    Guus: I'm a full-time employed IT-sec consultant, and my freelance time is what remains after that, my OSS coding, and private life.

  347. Guus

    Ge0rG I don't expect that you'd get much full-time job offerings through that page.

  348. Guus

    (and if so, you could always decline them, or redirect them)

  349. Ge0rG

    Guus: I'm not taking freelance jobs, and it might be a bit dishonest to advertise me as a freelancer and then to redirect all requests to my employer.

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  352. Ge0rG

    and making it official requires at least semi-formal support

  353. Ge0rG

    also being listed there as a freelancer requires (legally) me telling my employer about it.

  354. Guus

    I ment redirecting it to other community members, but, sure.

  355. Ge0rG

    Guus: I'm not sure what the point of that would be.

  356. Guus

    I'm in no way suggesting you should do something behind the back of your employer.

  357. Guus

    Ge0rG the point would be to help raise paid support for Smack

  358. Ge0rG

    Guus: I'm currently in a sad situation regarding that, and I hope I will be able to resolve that before summer

  359. Guus

    which would help the ecosystem a lot.

  360. Ge0rG

    I think there are two ways how I can motivate my employer. Either by providing a strong link to IT security (e.g. by leveraging one of the threat monitoring signalling XEPs), or to IoT

  361. Ge0rG

    but both are rather weak at this time

  362. Guus

    I'm unsure how to help you there.

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  364. Guus

    best I can do is to offer to figure out if I can help you out with a legal vehicle, in case you ever want to walk a different path than your employer, in the future.

  365. Ge0rG

    I need to submarine our company by hiring XMPP nerds who are also interested in IT-sec

  366. Guus

    and/or find a customer.

  367. Ge0rG

    or a research project

  368. Guus

    So many options! I'm amazed that it didn't happen yet!

  369. Guus ducks, runs.

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  385. MattJ

    Seems I missed a discussion this morning

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  387. MattJ

    > 10:24:44 ralphm> You can start a documentation project like this right now, giving guidance on choice of certain specifications, code examples, etc.

  388. MattJ


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  391. ralphm

    See, it can be done :-)

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  394. ralphm

    I forgot about this effort. Thanks for that, MattJ.

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  397. Guus

    maybe blogpost about that on xsf?

  398. Guus

    on xmpp.org, I mean.

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  401. MattJ

    Guus, I have a draft blog post, I think it's a good idea

  402. MattJ

    Just some things I want to tidy up first

  403. Guus


  404. Guus


  405. Guus

    can we pretty please have a webchat client on xmpp.org?

  406. MattJ

    Yes please

  407. Guus

    there has been lots of discussion on this in https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/101

  408. MattJ

    We used to have some, but they got unpopular due to random passers-by spamming

  409. Guus

    let's just slap converse on there

  410. MattJ

    We have a bunch of tools against that these days, a bunch of XMPP projects have open web-accessible rooms with no major issues

  411. ralphm

    MattJ: I think you already have the ability to do this, right?

  412. MattJ


  413. MattJ

    I'll take it on (or Zash)

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  422. Guus

    that would be awesome, thanks

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  452. Ge0rG

    Guus, Seve, ralphm: https://op-co.de/tmp/osd-job-description-2019-03.html (sorry, got interrupted by real work)

  453. Zash


  454. Guus

    Ge0rG thanks! Looks great. I've got one suggestion.

  455. Ge0rG

    Guus: this is why I'm posting it here :)

  456. Guus

    I'd replace this one sentence with two distinct ones: "To improve the situation, we have created a Compliance Suite that provides different use cases and want to provide a set of badges that developers can attach to their clients and servers to make them more attractive and more discoverable to users."

  457. Ge0rG

    Guus: Yeah, I tend to write overlong sentences. Do you have a specific split in mind?

  458. Guus

    I'd make it more explicit that creation of the set of badges is the purpose of the job posting.

  459. Guus

    might be as easy as: "To improve the situation, we have created a Compliance Suite that provides different use cases.<FULLSTOP, new paragraph>. To improve visibility of these suites, we want to provide a set of badges that developers can attach to their clients and servers to make them more attractive and more discoverable to users."

  460. Ge0rG

    Guus: updated the wording

  461. Guus

    ah, yes, that also works

  462. Guus

    +1 go for it etc

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  465. Ge0rG

    Zash: you wanted to comment as well?

  466. ralphm

    I think additionally...

  467. pep.

    I'm not sure I like the year in there, but I don't want to revive the topic just now.. (busy with work)

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  469. ralphm

    It may have to state explicitly that the full ownership of the rights to the created works lie with the XSF.

  470. Zash

    Ge0rG: That was in response to MattJ

  471. Ge0rG

    ralphm: that's a good ppint.

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  473. Zash

    Ge0rG: Text seems fine to me after a first reading.

  474. ralphm

    This allows us to modify it for subsequent editions, and control their use.

  475. Ge0rG

    ralphm: > To make it possible for the XSF to take measures against abuse of the badges by incompliant implementations, the XSF would need all exploitation rights on the created artwork. The artist should be ready to assign all those rights to the XSF.

  476. ralphm

    Some context https://web.archive.org/web/20060307012442/http://jabberpowered.org:80/guidelines.html

  477. Ge0rG

    (you cannot reasign copyright)

  478. ralphm

    Ge0rG: you can totally reassign copyright, or author's rights in countries like ours, especially if works were made to order.

  479. ralphm

    What you can typically not reassign are moral rights.

  480. ralphm

    Like the ability to say *you* created the work.

  481. Ge0rG

    you cannot reasign copyright where I live :>

  482. Ge0rG

    IANAL, wording suggestions are welcome

  483. Zash

    Copyright is usually two-part, as ralphm says

  484. ralphm


  485. ralphm

    is what we have coded up for XEPs

  486. Neustradamus

    A long time ago, I have sent this "logo" for the XMPP planet: https://planet.jabber.org/images/xmpp.png

  487. Guus

    bah, my client is misbehaving. Apologies for out-of-context / duplicate messages.

  488. ralphm

    Ge0rG: you totally can as I described, Dutch law is not very different from German law in that respect.

  489. ralphm

    Neustradamus: I don't see how this is relevant. We're talking about Compliance Suites, and Planet Jabber is not a function of the XSF.

  490. Guus

    Without needing to go into the details of what is possible under law: the text as-is looks ok to me.

  491. Ge0rG

    ralphm: I've changed the wording, do you approve?

  492. Ge0rG

    (reload the above link)

  493. ralphm

    Guus: indeed, in many jurisdictions things are different. This is probably why Lawrence Lessig was involved with our IPR policy. I'm sure Peter Saint-AndrΓ© has more details on this.

  494. ralphm

    I think so yes

  495. Guus

    I really don't want more details on this right now πŸ™‚

  496. Ge0rG

    Okay, I'm going to post the job then.

  497. Guus

    Ge0rG: thanks for doing this.

  498. Ge0rG

    I also noticed that we have some naming issues in the CS. What if you only implement https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0412.html#core - are you an "Advanced Core Server"? A "Core Core Client"?

  499. Ge0rG

    What if you implement IM _and_ Mobile?

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  501. Ge0rG

    Does it make sense to have "Advanced|Core Mobile Web"?

  502. Ge0rG

    Advanced Mobile Web IM Client 2019 Plus Plus.

  503. ralphm

    With sugar on top.

  504. Ge0rG

    Advanced Mobile Web IM Client 2019 Plus Plus.

  505. Ge0rG


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  507. Guus

    Even though you missed it, there was a related discussion about a pretty red pretty pretty car at the last XSF dinner...

  508. Ge0rG

    Posted. Please make a note in https://trello.com/c/3TyQIUUq/335-post-an-unpaid-job-for-compliance-badges-at-osd

  509. Guus

    commented and archived the trello card

  510. ralphm

    lovely small square clean antique red flowery Dutch wooden storage box

  511. Guus

    See?! _that's_ what happens when you feed him to much dame blanche

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  518. Seve

    Hey Ge0rG, I was not available until now. Looks super good, I'm really happy to pass that task to you, honestly :) Please, let me know the url of the job post whenever you have it, so I can write something for the newsletter as well. Again, thank you very much!

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    Seve: sure, can do

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