Guus: can we please add a bunch of huge, dangerous-looking, red crosses to the Pidgin line on our clients list? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19423513
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Holger
The context was my claim that a monolithic spec won't help with fragmentation as the latter is just the result of missing manpower on the implementation side.
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Ge0rG
relevant sub-thread link is https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19421634
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ralphm
Ge0rG: fwif, Matthew here says that the authors of such clients themselves deemed them unfinished.
ralphm
I wasn't aware you are one of Pidgin's authors.
Ge0rG
ralphm: I'm not. I'm from the "Pidgin is damaging the XMPP ecosystem and should be banned" fraction.
Ge0rG
I have no idea of how the Pidgin authors perceive their standing re XMPP, except for overhearing their refusal to acccept Compliance Suite 2019 as a task for GSoC.
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ralphm
I think we've had this discussion. As much as I might agree about the quality is the thing, and its, eh, value as an antique, it is still an XMPP client no matter how hard you argue against this.
Ge0rG
I'm also sad that our Compliance Badges never materialized.
ralphm
Ge0rG: design them and they will
Guus
<backspace><backspace><backspace><backspace> what he said.
Guus
also: what he said.
Guus
feel free to create some 🙂
Ge0rG
you _really_ don't want _me_ to design them.
Guus
that's what everyone says.
Guus
(specificly, references to themselves, not to you 😉 )
Ge0rG
I made an app logo that looks like a horny penis (according to a review on Google Play).
ralphm
Ge0rG: or force^Hcoerce^Hask somebody to do it on your behalf.
Guus
but you can arrange for them to be created just as well as anyone else.
ralphm
Ge0rG: counterpoint Slack
Holger
ralphm: He says the point of a monolithic protocol is just that client devs clearly see what's missing from their software. While I still believe XMPP devs are simply mostly time to implement something rather than being confused about what the heck to implement.
Guus
if only by doing this: https://trello.com/c/3TyQIUUq/335-post-an-unpaid-job-for-compliance-badges-at-osd
Ge0rG
ralphm: Slack is a counterpoint to what?
Holger
Basically it's just a typical forum rant where he refuses to admit that the real problem is manpower, not XEPs.
Guus
Holger I think it's a combination, probably.
ralphm
Holger: I understand that point, he's made it before. It has merit and downsides.
Holger
I.e. he refuses to admit that I'm right and he's wrong. Very typical issue on forums.
Ge0rG
Guus: so nobody posted it there yet?
ralphm
And yes, Matrix has the young-project advantage.
Guus
Ge0rG I didn't check, but I'd have thought that if that happened, it'd be mentioned on that Trello card
Guus
(and/or the card would've been removed)
Guus
Seve did you get around to posting that?
Holger
And sure he has a point about the XEP mess being inconsistent and confusing.
ralphm
Ge0rG: people have opinions on what the new Slack logo represents.
Seve
Guus, the badges job? I plan to do it during this week, still need to check what we discussed so I can ask for something specific
ralphm
Holger: maybe. In theory our policy is rather clear, we have Final and Draft standards. Maybe more of them should be Final.
Holger
ralphm: Yes but in practice the answer to the question "how do I implement avatars" isn't obvious.
Ge0rG
it doesn't look too hard to fill that job posting. Do we have a volunteer contact person from The Board?
Holger
ralphm: And this is not a temporary issue, it's been that way for many years, and various other such questions. And I do think that's problematic when you want to convince a new client dev to use XMPP.
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Guus
Ge0rG no. You just volunteered, I think.
Seve
Ge0rG, I created that card because we couldn't get a designer
Ge0rG
Guus: roger wilco
Ge0rGalso assumes he is now volunteered to post that job
Seve
So my idea to pursue the badges thing (which I was not super enthusiast with it) was to post a job there and see if we get some interest there
ralphm
Holger: yes, people have argued this many times, I happen to agree, yet nobody has taken the time to actually work on this problem.
Seve
Holger, something you would do so good :D wink wink
Guus
Seve - Ge0rG is saying he can do the job posting, unless you want to do it yourself.
ralphm
And/or somehow expects others (like Board/Council) to do this for them.
Seve
Ahh ok Guus
Seve
Ge0rG, it is fine by me, go ahead :)
Guus
brainfart: should we start paying people to do tasks like that? As in, hire/employ people?
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Holger
ralphm, Seve: Well I mentioned before that I'd be motivated to participate in a group that works on cleaning up the mess. The problem I see is that our workflows (as spec'ed in 0001 and cultivated over time) don't make it easy to form such a group and provide them the necessary means. I certainly don't expect Council to be this group, as Council's job is, by definition, approving/rejecting individual XEPs rather than working towards a consistent set of extensions.
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Guus
Holger, what exactly in 0001 in stopping you? I'd be happy to try and remove those blockages for you
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ralphm
Writing auxillary documentation requires no interaction, approval, or anything.
Guus
(also, just getting a bunch of people together to do the work and make suggestions doesn't need 0001-type approval)
Holger
I get where our rules are coming from, and I do appreciate how they try to make sure no interested party can 'take over' the protocol without some kind of community consensus.
ralphm
That's not my intent anyway.
Holger
But they did result in the current mess and do make it hard to elect a group of a few people and provide them the means of cleaning it up.
pep.
I'm not entirely sure this is the job of the XSF tbh, I'd say that's up to something like the xdf/jsf/whatever. We can improve discoverability of the XEPs by tagging, or search engines and whatnots, but in the end what I think is blocking is recommendations on which XEPs to use for what purpose
ralphm
While the XSF has an important role in the community, it is *not* the end all and be all of things XMPP.
pep.
"There's N XEPs for this purpose, use _this one_"
pep.
("and _like this_")
Guus
Holger why don't you simply get started with some rough drafts of what you envision, maybe on the wiki, or somewhere else.
ralphm
You can start a documentation project like this right now, giving guidance on choice of certain specifications, code examples, etc.
Holger
While various people would like to see the XSF to engage in various other things such as marketing and whatnot, I'd like to see it sticking to specs. But I *do* think the XSF is the obvious party responsible for specs.
pep.
ralphm, yes, there's already something started, the rest is lack of resources. (Note that I'm not complaining here)
Holger
Oh well, I think I'm not gonna dive into this discussion again right now, sorry. I understand that I'm pretty alone with my viewpoint, that's fine. Maybe I'm just wrong.
pep.
Holger, you're welcome to join and help :)
Holger
Yes yes.
Guus
Holger, fwiw, I don't think that there's much disagreement here.
ralphm
Holger: where do you get the idea that I disagree?
pep.
Holger, I think the XSF is the obvious party responsible for providing specs. I don't think it's the obvious party to recommend what specs to use among the many they provide
Holger
ralphm: You're suggesting "writing auxillary documentation". I disagree this would solve our problem.
ralphm
I just think the XSF is not, and should, be in your way to make this happen.
ralphm
Should not
ralphm
If you want to carry this with out within the XSF, you can do so.
ralphm
But it is not required
Guus
Holger: I think Ralphm nor me understand the issue that you're trying to make.
Ge0rG
I'm also confused
Guus
I'm very much in agreement with Ralph that I don't think that there should be anything in the XSF processes that should prevent you to do whatever it is you want to do.
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pep.
Holger, I guess what the XSF can do about this is tagging XEPs, maybe, and providing some kind of smart search, I don't think it can do much more
pep.
(https://xmpp.org/extensions/ this could probably be improved a bit towards this)
Ge0rG
Holger: so what do you want done, specifically?
Guus
Holger, specifically, what improvements would you like to see happen?
Seve
Maybe it is not just writing some side information about how to do things, but actually modifying XEPs and so on?
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Holger
Hehe the "not going into this right now" part doesn't work out well ;-)
Holger
Distracted by work right now sorry.
Holger
Gonna try to avoid ranting while being busy in the future.
Guus
ok, fair enough - but if there's something that can be done to improve things, I'd very much like to hear that suggestion.
Seve
Holger, haha :)
No worries we are patient, will be here when you are ready again
Guus
if only to be able to thoroughly disagree 😉
ralphm
I think the pages at https://xmpp.org/about/technology-overview.html and https://xmpp.org/uses/ might be good starting points.
Ge0rG
the pages below https://xmpp.org/uses/ need some serious work
Guus
Ge0rG I invite you to work on it as soon as you finish that OSD job posting 😉
Guus
> if only to be able to thoroughly disagree 😉
I kind of regret typing that, for fear it could be misunderstood as anything but being a joke. I truly welcome suggestions for improvement.
Ge0rG
Guus: let me fire up my time machine, travel three months into the past and start!
Ge0rG
*zwoooosh*
Ge0rG
https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/490
Guus
I see that the level of sarcasm hasn't changed in those three months! 😉
Guus
as an aside: do you still want a listing on igniterealtime?
Ge0rG
Guus: I've had a very hard time convincing my employer, so it's currently on hold.
Guus
I'd love to see more entries on that list - yours would be very much welcome.
Guus
ok - and you're not in a position to do this as a freelancer?
Ge0rG
Guus: it needs to fit our long-term strategy, which we don't have yet. And it needs to have more than one person backing it
Guus
ah, requirements to adhere to definitions that do not exist!
Ge0rG
Guus: I'm a full-time employed IT-sec consultant, and my freelance time is what remains after that, my OSS coding, and private life.
Guus
Ge0rG I don't expect that you'd get much full-time job offerings through that page.
Guus
(and if so, you could always decline them, or redirect them)
Ge0rG
Guus: I'm not taking freelance jobs, and it might be a bit dishonest to advertise me as a freelancer and then to redirect all requests to my employer.
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Ge0rG
and making it official requires at least semi-formal support
Ge0rG
also being listed there as a freelancer requires (legally) me telling my employer about it.
Guus
I ment redirecting it to other community members, but, sure.
Ge0rG
Guus: I'm not sure what the point of that would be.
Guus
I'm in no way suggesting you should do something behind the back of your employer.
Guus
Ge0rG the point would be to help raise paid support for Smack
Ge0rG
Guus: I'm currently in a sad situation regarding that, and I hope I will be able to resolve that before summer
Guus
which would help the ecosystem a lot.
Ge0rG
I think there are two ways how I can motivate my employer. Either by providing a strong link to IT security (e.g. by leveraging one of the threat monitoring signalling XEPs), or to IoT
Ge0rG
but both are rather weak at this time
Guus
I'm unsure how to help you there.
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Guus
best I can do is to offer to figure out if I can help you out with a legal vehicle, in case you ever want to walk a different path than your employer, in the future.
Ge0rG
I need to submarine our company by hiring XMPP nerds who are also interested in IT-sec
Guus
and/or find a customer.
Ge0rG
or a research project
Guus
So many options! I'm amazed that it didn't happen yet!
Guusducks, runs.
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quack
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MattJ
Seems I missed a discussion this morning
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MattJ
> 10:24:44 ralphm> You can start a documentation project like this right now, giving guidance on choice of certain specifications, code examples, etc.
MattJ
https://docs.modernxmpp.org/
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ralphm
See, it can be done :-)
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ralphm
I forgot about this effort. Thanks for that, MattJ.
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Guus
maybe blogpost about that on xsf?
Guus
on xmpp.org, I mean.
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MattJ
Guus, I have a draft blog post, I think it's a good idea
MattJ
Just some things I want to tidy up first
Guus
excellent!
Guus
also
Guus
can we pretty please have a webchat client on xmpp.org?
MattJ
Yes please
Guus
there has been lots of discussion on this in https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/101
MattJ
We used to have some, but they got unpopular due to random passers-by spamming
Guus
let's just slap converse on there
MattJ
We have a bunch of tools against that these days, a bunch of XMPP projects have open web-accessible rooms with no major issues
ralphm
MattJ: I think you already have the ability to do this, right?
MattJ
Yep
MattJ
I'll take it on (or Zash)
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Guus
that would be awesome, thanks
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Ge0rG
Guus, Seve, ralphm: https://op-co.de/tmp/osd-job-description-2019-03.html (sorry, got interrupted by real work)
Zash
Hm?
Guus
Ge0rG thanks! Looks great. I've got one suggestion.
Ge0rG
Guus: this is why I'm posting it here :)
Guus
I'd replace this one sentence with two distinct ones: "To improve the situation, we have created a Compliance Suite that provides different use cases and want to provide a set of badges that developers can attach to their clients and servers to make them more attractive and more discoverable to users."
Ge0rG
Guus: Yeah, I tend to write overlong sentences. Do you have a specific split in mind?
Guus
I'd make it more explicit that creation of the set of badges is the purpose of the job posting.
Guus
might be as easy as: "To improve the situation, we have created a Compliance Suite that provides different use cases.<FULLSTOP, new paragraph>. To improve visibility of these suites, we want to provide a set of badges that developers can attach to their clients and servers to make them more attractive and more discoverable to users."
Ge0rG
Guus: updated the wording
Guus
ah, yes, that also works
Guus
+1 go for it etc
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Ge0rG
Zash: you wanted to comment as well?
ralphm
I think additionally...
pep.
I'm not sure I like the year in there, but I don't want to revive the topic just now.. (busy with work)
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ralphm
It may have to state explicitly that the full ownership of the rights to the created works lie with the XSF.
Zash
Ge0rG: That was in response to MattJ
Ge0rG
ralphm: that's a good ppint.
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Zash
Ge0rG: Text seems fine to me after a first reading.
ralphm
This allows us to modify it for subsequent editions, and control their use.
Ge0rG
ralphm:
> To make it possible for the XSF to take measures against abuse of the badges by incompliant implementations, the XSF would need all exploitation rights on the created artwork. The artist should be ready to assign all those rights to the XSF.
ralphm
Some context https://web.archive.org/web/20060307012442/http://jabberpowered.org:80/guidelines.html
Ge0rG
(you cannot reasign copyright)
ralphm
Ge0rG: you can totally reassign copyright, or author's rights in countries like ours, especially if works were made to order.
ralphm
What you can typically not reassign are moral rights.
ralphm
Like the ability to say *you* created the work.
Ge0rG
you cannot reasign copyright where I live :>
Ge0rG
IANAL, wording suggestions are welcome
Zash
Copyright is usually two-part, as ralphm says
ralphm
https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/ipr-policy
ralphm
is what we have coded up for XEPs
Neustradamus
A long time ago, I have sent this "logo" for the XMPP planet: https://planet.jabber.org/images/xmpp.png
Guus
bah, my client is misbehaving. Apologies for out-of-context / duplicate messages.
ralphm
Ge0rG: you totally can as I described, Dutch law is not very different from German law in that respect.
ralphm
Neustradamus: I don't see how this is relevant. We're talking about Compliance Suites, and Planet Jabber is not a function of the XSF.
Guus
Without needing to go into the details of what is possible under law: the text as-is looks ok to me.
I really don't want more details on this right now 🙂
Ge0rG
Okay, I'm going to post the job then.
Guus
Ge0rG: thanks for doing this.
Ge0rG
I also noticed that we have some naming issues in the CS. What if you only implement https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0412.html#core - are you an "Advanced Core Server"? A "Core Core Client"?
Ge0rG
What if you implement IM _and_ Mobile?
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Ge0rG
Does it make sense to have "Advanced|Core Mobile Web"?
Even though you missed it, there was a related discussion about a pretty red pretty pretty car at the last XSF dinner...
Ge0rG
Posted. Please make a note in https://trello.com/c/3TyQIUUq/335-post-an-unpaid-job-for-compliance-badges-at-osd
Guus
commented and archived the trello card
ralphm
lovely small square clean antique red flowery Dutch wooden storage box
Guus
See?! _that's_ what happens when you feed him to much dame blanche
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Seve
Hey Ge0rG, I was not available until now. Looks super good, I'm really happy to pass that task to you, honestly :)
Please, let me know the url of the job post whenever you have it, so I can write something for the newsletter as well.
Again, thank you very much!