Ge0rGPhew. Council duties completed. Only delayed by a week and some.
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edhelasis there known clients that are implementing https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0367.html ?
MattJHipChat, and a bot I wrote
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MattJ*HipChat (RIP)
edhelasoh really ?
edhelasI'm planning to implement it in Movim
MattJGreat! :)
GuusI discussed XEP-0367 with Dele Olajide the other day
Guusas a suggestion for Pade
MattJYes, I really would like to see it more widely implemented
MattJSome work was started for Dino, but afaik that's about it so far
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pep.Reactions?
MattJMessage attaching
MattJWhich I think it possibly not the best name, to be honest
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ZashSo what's the deal with attaching vs references?
pep.Right, I was going to ask
MattJExactly
ZashWas this something discussed at the summit?
pep.Not this specific subject iirc, or at least not this year, but we've had this discussion before on xsf@ at least
MattJReferences is still full of TODOs and has various open issues regarding how to count characters, etc.
Dele Olajide >Guus: I discussed XEP-0367 with Dele Olajide the other day
Yes Indeed. That was for emoji reactions
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SeveThat XEP needs some work though, I wonder if it should be splitted, one for reactions and one for attachments. Problem is, you cannot decide what should go first if multiple things are attached (like reactions and images and whatnot)
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ZashXEP-0377: Spam Reporting
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0377.html
Is there still interest in this or something like it?
ZashIIRC someone thought it should be detached from xep-191
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lovetoxyes i think its better
lovetoxotherwise you remove any chance this gets send without a blocking action
lovetoxwhich will then lead to some hacks like send blocking iq without item or stuff like that
lovetoxbut interest must come from server operators i guess
lovetoxi think this is useful and most applications have a spam button
ZashWhat comes first, XEP or server? Or client?
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MattJWhy would you want to report spam and *not* block the sending JID?
moparisthebesthoneypot?
MattJWhat about it?
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jonas’depending on the honeypot use-case, one might want not to actually populate a blocklist to further observe the spambots behaviour before termination
lovetoxMattJ, i dont know, but why do you want to rob us of the possibility to do so ?
jonas’save all the roundtrips.
jonas’also atomic operations are nice
lovetoxspamreporting is not a operation that happens so often that we would have to consider efficiency
lovetoxi would argue
jonas’(I agree with you)
lovetoxeither way, this should come in that or another form
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MattJI don't really understand why people want to reject the simple solution here
lovetoxWhats not simple about the other solution?
lovetoxand nobody rejects it
MattJSending two iqs?
jonas’we all love the simple (2 IQ) solution
lovetoxno sending one iq to report spam
MattJand then not blocking the JID
MattJ?
ZashCode is probably going to be pretty simple either way
MattJThe server is likely going to block it anyway
MattJSo whatever, go ahead, I won't object :)
jonas’hm, having it in one operation has the advantage that there’s something to lose for the user for reporting false spam
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MattJjonas’, yes, that came up before. Didn't mention it now because it's easy to argue against - just send a second iq to unblock
jonas’sure
MattJBut I consider it a nicer UI to report+block at the same time
MattJOther systems don't have two separate buttons
lovetoxwhat if some server wants to tell another server that he blocked a server or jid?
MattJlovetox, that is not what this protocol is for
ZashDoes it really matter that much on the wire?
MattJlovetox, and if you want this protocol to do those kinds of things, there are many many previous XEPs that do this
MattJand they got nowhere, because they are too complex and impractical in reality
lovetoxMattJ but making it not dependend on blocking makes it able to easily reuse for use cases we didnt think about
lovetoxbut ok i see there are pro and cons
MattJThere are various components to consider with battling spam
lovetoxit doesnt matter let this get advanced
MattJOne of these components is the ability for users to report spam that has slipped through the net
MattJIt is unrelated to the other components, it's a feedback mechanism
lovetoxi understand that if executed by the user this will be 99.99% with a blocking
ZashIf you see it as block(jid, [reason]) then the current thing seems fine
lovetoxmy argument was, its not reusable in other circumstances we didnt think of
MattJlovetox, that kind of argument leads to generic complex XEPs, of which we have many
lovetoxbut yeah we can always add another XEP for that
MattJand nobody knows how to use them sensibly
MattJBecause they support using them in so many different ways
MattJI'm currently fighting to tie up all those loose ends and document them, I don't want to introduce more
lovetoxstore hints come to mind
lovetoxwas this XEP ever put to last call or vote?
MattJhttps://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0287.html
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MattJhttps://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0161.html
MattJHmm, what's the other one
lovetoxhm ok abuse report seems exactly what i asked about
lovetoxip is a bit lol
lovetoxbut ok
MattJlovetox, but someone might need it!
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MattJlovetox, for example service operators who want to report bots registering on their server
lovetoxwe really have a problem with people adding XEPs but than dont follow through
MattJlovetox, because "following through" typically requires multiple interoperable implementations
MattJwhich a single XEP author can't do, and even if everyone in the individual projects agrees it's a good thing to do, there are other priorities...
lovetoxfor draft status you dont need implementations or?
MattJNo, but I'm assuming by "follow through" you include implementing
lovetoxhm no i meant the author adjusts the xep after feedback
MattJOh right, sure
lovetoxit seems people maybe think experimental xeps are not changed, so they add new ones
lovetoxbecause i dont see why the first abuse report XEP 161 could not add the example to use it with blocking
Zashcreates https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Spam
ZashWhat XEPs are there, what's the good and bad of each? Write down there.
Zashhttps://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0268.html
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MattJAh, that's the one I was looking for
MattJIt perfectly fits "easy to reuse for use cases we didn't think about" :)
MattJIt doesn't fit "easy to use"
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ZashI think 377 is more in the spirit of simple clients, complex servers
ZashIODEF might be fine to generate from the server and send wherever
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MattJYes, agreed
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Ge0rGI know that I sound like a broken record, but in the current situation, if a user needs to report spam, it essentially means the admin is a lazy bastards who doesn't do due diligence
ZashYes
MattJGe0rG, so you filter 100% of spam?
MattJand I know you don't, so follow-up question: wouldn't you like feedback to know about stuff that slipped through your net?
ZashThis mostly being taken care of by server-side black box magic does reduce the apparent need of these reporting mechanisms
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Ge0rGthe deployment of a reporting mechanism prior to a black box magic filter won't do anybody any good.
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MattJThe black box magic filter needs data
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ZashBlack box 22
Ge0rGI'm in the position to make use of such a reporting, because I'm filtering out 99% of spam, so I'll only receive maybe 0.1% of reports. Other server admins don't have a black box, so they are going to receive 10% of their server's spam. Based on the typical 10% engagement rate.
MattJSure
Ge0rGWe need to teach everybody to walk before giving them wings.
MattJBut I'd argue that it is better to have the mechanism in the server and clients, even if it isn't connected to anything more than "block this JID"
Ge0rGMattJ: no. It's actually worse.
MattJWaiting until we perfect magic boxes until we deploy this is the wrong approach
Ge0rGMattJ: blocking an individual JID won't have any impact on the amount of spam received by a user. But the ineffectivity of the spam report button will teach them not to use it.
MattJI'm not sure I agree with that
MattJ(that they won't use it)
Ge0rGMattJ: if you find out that something doesn't work, will you keep using it?
MattJIf it's as easy to click "close tab" as it is to click "report and close tab"
MattJThey won't find out, that's the beauty
Ge0rGIt's never as easy.
MattJI receive spam in my inbox, I still report it
Ge0rGThey report and block, half an hour later they receive the same spam from a different JID.
ZashThe Algoritm thanks you for the input.
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MattJGe0rG, I'm not denying that will happen
Ge0rGMattJ: you also assume that your report isn't merely silently logged into prosody.log without any further action
MattJDo I?
MattJI think you're over-thinking things on behalf of users
MattJIf they continue to receive spam they'll likely just stop using the service, client, protocol
MattJregardless of whether there was a report button or not
MattJSo the absence of a report button is really not a fix for anything
MattJ(I have actually lost contacts who stopped using XMPP entirely when they received daily spam)
Ge0rGAh, it's too late already.
ZashWE'RE DOOMED
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Ge0rGYou can do whatever you want, and you can deploy whatever you want, wherever you want. Feel free to focus your efforts on re-solving the 99% of spam problem.
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pep.I know many people who just continue using IRC/Freenode even with the spamwaves when server operators are almost useless.. I don't think a button would help much during these tbh
mathieuifreenode is kind of a specific population
mathieui(and even then, spam is much easier to deal with in a single IRC network)