XSF Discussion - 2019-03-22

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08:50:44 Ge0rG Phew. Council duties completed. Only delayed by a week and some.
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15:32:32 edhelas is there known clients that are implementing https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0367.html ?
15:33:43 MattJ HipChat, and a bot I wrote
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15:33:53 MattJ *HipChat (RIP)
15:34:07 edhelas oh really ?
15:34:22 edhelas I'm planning to implement it in Movim
15:34:26 MattJ Great! :)
15:34:32 Guus I discussed XEP-0367 with Dele Olajide the other day
15:34:48 Guus as a suggestion for Pade
15:35:03 MattJ Yes, I really would like to see it more widely implemented
15:35:15 MattJ Some work was started for Dino, but afaik that's about it so far
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15:35:29 pep. Reactions?
15:35:42 MattJ Message attaching
15:35:51 MattJ Which I think it possibly not the best name, to be honest
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15:35:57 Zash So what's the deal with attaching vs references?
15:36:03 pep. Right, I was going to ask
15:36:04 MattJ Exactly
15:36:19 Zash Was this something discussed at the summit?
15:36:45 pep. Not this specific subject iirc, or at least not this year, but we've had this discussion before on xsf@ at least
15:38:43 MattJ References is still full of TODOs and has various open issues regarding how to count characters, etc.
15:39:01 Dele Olajide >Guus: I discussed XEP-0367 with Dele Olajide the other day Yes Indeed. That was for emoji reactions
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15:49:46 Seve That XEP needs some work though, I wonder if it should be splitted, one for reactions and one for attachments. Problem is, you cannot decide what should go first if multiple things are attached (like reactions and images and whatnot)
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17:34:48 Zash XEP-0377: Spam Reporting https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0377.html Is there still interest in this or something like it?
17:35:09 Zash IIRC someone thought it should be detached from xep-191
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17:46:13 lovetox yes i think its better
17:46:28 lovetox otherwise you remove any chance this gets send without a blocking action
17:46:46 lovetox which will then lead to some hacks like send blocking iq without item or stuff like that
17:47:42 lovetox but interest must come from server operators i guess
17:48:15 lovetox i think this is useful and most applications have a spam button
17:48:59 Zash What comes first, XEP or server? Or client?
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18:36:19 MattJ Why would you want to report spam and *not* block the sending JID?
18:37:45 moparisthebest honeypot?
18:39:23 MattJ What about it?
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18:43:04 jonas’ depending on the honeypot use-case, one might want not to actually populate a blocklist to further observe the spambots behaviour before termination
18:44:23 lovetox MattJ, i dont know, but why do you want to rob us of the possibility to do so ?
18:44:40 jonas’ save all the roundtrips.
18:44:44 jonas’ also atomic operations are nice
18:45:13 lovetox spamreporting is not a operation that happens so often that we would have to consider efficiency
18:45:16 lovetox i would argue
18:45:28 jonas’ (I agree with you)
18:45:48 lovetox either way, this should come in that or another form
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18:46:06 MattJ I don't really understand why people want to reject the simple solution here
18:46:19 lovetox Whats not simple about the other solution?
18:46:24 lovetox and nobody rejects it
18:46:27 MattJ Sending two iqs?
18:46:37 jonas’ we all love the simple (2 IQ) solution
18:46:40 lovetox no sending one iq to report spam
18:46:52 MattJ and then not blocking the JID
18:46:54 MattJ ?
18:47:27 Zash Code is probably going to be pretty simple either way
18:47:28 MattJ The server is likely going to block it anyway
18:47:40 MattJ So whatever, go ahead, I won't object :)
18:48:15 jonas’ hm, having it in one operation has the advantage that there’s something to lose for the user for reporting false spam
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18:48:37 MattJ jonas’, yes, that came up before. Didn't mention it now because it's easy to argue against - just send a second iq to unblock
18:48:43 jonas’ sure
18:49:16 MattJ But I consider it a nicer UI to report+block at the same time
18:49:31 MattJ Other systems don't have two separate buttons
18:49:35 lovetox what if some server wants to tell another server that he blocked a server or jid?
18:49:46 MattJ lovetox, that is not what this protocol is for
18:49:49 Zash Does it really matter that much on the wire?
18:50:08 MattJ lovetox, and if you want this protocol to do those kinds of things, there are many many previous XEPs that do this
18:50:22 MattJ and they got nowhere, because they are too complex and impractical in reality
18:50:24 lovetox MattJ but making it not dependend on blocking makes it able to easily reuse for use cases we didnt think about
18:50:49 lovetox but ok i see there are pro and cons
18:50:56 MattJ There are various components to consider with battling spam
18:51:05 lovetox it doesnt matter let this get advanced
18:51:07 MattJ One of these components is the ability for users to report spam that has slipped through the net
18:51:20 MattJ It is unrelated to the other components, it's a feedback mechanism
18:52:05 lovetox i understand that if executed by the user this will be 99.99% with a blocking
18:52:07 Zash If you see it as block(jid, [reason]) then the current thing seems fine
18:52:19 lovetox my argument was, its not reusable in other circumstances we didnt think of
18:52:42 MattJ lovetox, that kind of argument leads to generic complex XEPs, of which we have many
18:52:44 lovetox but yeah we can always add another XEP for that
18:52:49 MattJ and nobody knows how to use them sensibly
18:52:55 MattJ Because they support using them in so many different ways
18:53:16 MattJ I'm currently fighting to tie up all those loose ends and document them, I don't want to introduce more
18:53:19 lovetox store hints come to mind
18:54:20 lovetox was this XEP ever put to last call or vote?
18:54:32 MattJ https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0287.html
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18:54:56 MattJ https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0161.html
18:55:21 MattJ Hmm, what's the other one
18:56:06 lovetox hm ok abuse report seems exactly what i asked about
18:56:26 lovetox ip is a bit lol
18:56:28 lovetox but ok
18:56:38 MattJ lovetox, but someone might need it!
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18:56:59 MattJ lovetox, for example service operators who want to report bots registering on their server
18:57:12 lovetox we really have a problem with people adding XEPs but than dont follow through
18:57:14 Zash > Kev: yes, XEP-268 (instant reporting), XEP-236 (Abuse), XEP-287 (SPIM markers and reports), XEP-377 (SPAM reporting).
18:57:23 Zash https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Minutes_of_the_2018_Summit:_Day_two#3._SPAM
18:58:03 MattJ lovetox, because "following through" typically requires multiple interoperable implementations
18:58:29 MattJ which a single XEP author can't do, and even if everyone in the individual projects agrees it's a good thing to do, there are other priorities...
18:59:06 lovetox for draft status you dont need implementations or?
18:59:27 MattJ No, but I'm assuming by "follow through" you include implementing
19:00:28 lovetox hm no i meant the author adjusts the xep after feedback
19:00:36 MattJ Oh right, sure
19:00:52 lovetox it seems people maybe think experimental xeps are not changed, so they add new ones
19:01:29 lovetox because i dont see why the first abuse report XEP 161 could not add the example to use it with blocking
19:03:15 Zash creates https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Spam
19:03:31 Zash What XEPs are there, what's the good and bad of each? Write down there.
19:04:26 Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0268.html
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19:07:53 MattJ Ah, that's the one I was looking for
19:08:40 MattJ It perfectly fits "easy to reuse for use cases we didn't think about" :)
19:08:47 MattJ It doesn't fit "easy to use"
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19:10:46 Zash I think 377 is more in the spirit of simple clients, complex servers
19:11:09 Zash IODEF might be fine to generate from the server and send wherever
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19:12:00 MattJ Yes, agreed
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19:25:33 Ge0rG I know that I sound like a broken record, but in the current situation, if a user needs to report spam, it essentially means the admin is a lazy bastards who doesn't do due diligence
19:26:01 Zash Yes
19:26:12 MattJ Ge0rG, so you filter 100% of spam?
19:26:41 MattJ and I know you don't, so follow-up question: wouldn't you like feedback to know about stuff that slipped through your net?
19:26:41 Zash This mostly being taken care of by server-side black box magic does reduce the apparent need of these reporting mechanisms
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19:52:28 Ge0rG the deployment of a reporting mechanism prior to a black box magic filter won't do anybody any good.
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19:53:11 MattJ The black box magic filter needs data
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19:53:22 Zash Black box 22
19:54:09 Ge0rG I'm in the position to make use of such a reporting, because I'm filtering out 99% of spam, so I'll only receive maybe 0.1% of reports. Other server admins don't have a black box, so they are going to receive 10% of their server's spam. Based on the typical 10% engagement rate.
19:54:28 MattJ Sure
19:54:55 Ge0rG We need to teach everybody to walk before giving them wings.
19:55:04 MattJ But I'd argue that it is better to have the mechanism in the server and clients, even if it isn't connected to anything more than "block this JID"
19:55:20 Ge0rG MattJ: no. It's actually worse.
19:55:23 MattJ Waiting until we perfect magic boxes until we deploy this is the wrong approach
19:56:31 Ge0rG MattJ: blocking an individual JID won't have any impact on the amount of spam received by a user. But the ineffectivity of the spam report button will teach them not to use it.
19:56:51 MattJ I'm not sure I agree with that
19:56:56 MattJ (that they won't use it)
19:57:16 Ge0rG MattJ: if you find out that something doesn't work, will you keep using it?
19:57:19 MattJ If it's as easy to click "close tab" as it is to click "report and close tab"
19:57:28 MattJ They won't find out, that's the beauty
19:57:31 Ge0rG It's never as easy.
19:57:50 MattJ I receive spam in my inbox, I still report it
19:58:04 Ge0rG They report and block, half an hour later they receive the same spam from a different JID.
19:58:31 Zash The Algoritm thanks you for the input.
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19:58:45 MattJ Ge0rG, I'm not denying that will happen
19:58:49 Ge0rG MattJ: you also assume that your report isn't merely silently logged into prosody.log without any further action
19:59:02 MattJ Do I?
19:59:18 MattJ I think you're over-thinking things on behalf of users
19:59:37 MattJ If they continue to receive spam they'll likely just stop using the service, client, protocol
19:59:46 MattJ regardless of whether there was a report button or not
20:00:07 MattJ So the absence of a report button is really not a fix for anything
20:00:30 MattJ (I have actually lost contacts who stopped using XMPP entirely when they received daily spam)
20:01:39 Ge0rG Ah, it's too late already.
20:03:16 Zash WE'RE DOOMED
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20:09:07 Ge0rG You can do whatever you want, and you can deploy whatever you want, wherever you want. Feel free to focus your efforts on re-solving the 99% of spam problem.
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22:01:45 pep. I know many people who just continue using IRC/Freenode even with the spamwaves when server operators are almost useless.. I don't think a button would help much during these tbh
22:06:45 mathieui freenode is kind of a specific population
22:07:03 mathieui (and even then, spam is much easier to deal with in a single IRC network)
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