XSF Discussion - 2019-03-22

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  76. Ge0rG Phew. Council duties completed. Only delayed by a week and some.
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  283. edhelas is there known clients that are implementing https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0367.html ?
  284. MattJ HipChat, and a bot I wrote
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  286. MattJ *HipChat (RIP)
  287. edhelas oh really ?
  288. edhelas I'm planning to implement it in Movim
  289. MattJ Great! :)
  290. Guus I discussed XEP-0367 with Dele Olajide the other day
  291. Guus as a suggestion for Pade
  292. MattJ Yes, I really would like to see it more widely implemented
  293. MattJ Some work was started for Dino, but afaik that's about it so far
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  295. pep. Reactions?
  296. MattJ Message attaching
  297. MattJ Which I think it possibly not the best name, to be honest
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  300. Zash So what's the deal with attaching vs references?
  301. pep. Right, I was going to ask
  302. MattJ Exactly
  303. Zash Was this something discussed at the summit?
  304. pep. Not this specific subject iirc, or at least not this year, but we've had this discussion before on xsf@ at least
  305. MattJ References is still full of TODOs and has various open issues regarding how to count characters, etc.
  306. Dele Olajide >Guus: I discussed XEP-0367 with Dele Olajide the other day Yes Indeed. That was for emoji reactions
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  313. Seve That XEP needs some work though, I wonder if it should be splitted, one for reactions and one for attachments. Problem is, you cannot decide what should go first if multiple things are attached (like reactions and images and whatnot)
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  380. Zash XEP-0377: Spam Reporting https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0377.html Is there still interest in this or something like it?
  381. Zash IIRC someone thought it should be detached from xep-191
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  388. lovetox yes i think its better
  389. lovetox otherwise you remove any chance this gets send without a blocking action
  390. lovetox which will then lead to some hacks like send blocking iq without item or stuff like that
  391. lovetox but interest must come from server operators i guess
  392. lovetox i think this is useful and most applications have a spam button
  393. Zash What comes first, XEP or server? Or client?
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  414. MattJ Why would you want to report spam and *not* block the sending JID?
  415. moparisthebest honeypot?
  416. MattJ What about it?
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  420. jonas’ depending on the honeypot use-case, one might want not to actually populate a blocklist to further observe the spambots behaviour before termination
  421. lovetox MattJ, i dont know, but why do you want to rob us of the possibility to do so ?
  422. jonas’ save all the roundtrips.
  423. jonas’ also atomic operations are nice
  424. lovetox spamreporting is not a operation that happens so often that we would have to consider efficiency
  425. lovetox i would argue
  426. jonas’ (I agree with you)
  427. lovetox either way, this should come in that or another form
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  430. MattJ I don't really understand why people want to reject the simple solution here
  431. lovetox Whats not simple about the other solution?
  432. lovetox and nobody rejects it
  433. MattJ Sending two iqs?
  434. jonas’ we all love the simple (2 IQ) solution
  435. lovetox no sending one iq to report spam
  436. MattJ and then not blocking the JID
  437. MattJ ?
  438. Zash Code is probably going to be pretty simple either way
  439. MattJ The server is likely going to block it anyway
  440. MattJ So whatever, go ahead, I won't object :)
  441. jonas’ hm, having it in one operation has the advantage that there’s something to lose for the user for reporting false spam
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  443. MattJ jonas’, yes, that came up before. Didn't mention it now because it's easy to argue against - just send a second iq to unblock
  444. jonas’ sure
  445. MattJ But I consider it a nicer UI to report+block at the same time
  446. MattJ Other systems don't have two separate buttons
  447. lovetox what if some server wants to tell another server that he blocked a server or jid?
  448. MattJ lovetox, that is not what this protocol is for
  449. Zash Does it really matter that much on the wire?
  450. MattJ lovetox, and if you want this protocol to do those kinds of things, there are many many previous XEPs that do this
  451. MattJ and they got nowhere, because they are too complex and impractical in reality
  452. lovetox MattJ but making it not dependend on blocking makes it able to easily reuse for use cases we didnt think about
  453. lovetox but ok i see there are pro and cons
  454. MattJ There are various components to consider with battling spam
  455. lovetox it doesnt matter let this get advanced
  456. MattJ One of these components is the ability for users to report spam that has slipped through the net
  457. MattJ It is unrelated to the other components, it's a feedback mechanism
  458. lovetox i understand that if executed by the user this will be 99.99% with a blocking
  459. Zash If you see it as block(jid, [reason]) then the current thing seems fine
  460. lovetox my argument was, its not reusable in other circumstances we didnt think of
  461. MattJ lovetox, that kind of argument leads to generic complex XEPs, of which we have many
  462. lovetox but yeah we can always add another XEP for that
  463. MattJ and nobody knows how to use them sensibly
  464. MattJ Because they support using them in so many different ways
  465. MattJ I'm currently fighting to tie up all those loose ends and document them, I don't want to introduce more
  466. lovetox store hints come to mind
  467. lovetox was this XEP ever put to last call or vote?
  468. MattJ https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0287.html
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  470. MattJ https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0161.html
  471. MattJ Hmm, what's the other one
  472. lovetox hm ok abuse report seems exactly what i asked about
  473. lovetox ip is a bit lol
  474. lovetox but ok
  475. MattJ lovetox, but someone might need it!
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  478. MattJ lovetox, for example service operators who want to report bots registering on their server
  479. lovetox we really have a problem with people adding XEPs but than dont follow through
  480. Zash > Kev: yes, XEP-268 (instant reporting), XEP-236 (Abuse), XEP-287 (SPIM markers and reports), XEP-377 (SPAM reporting).
  481. Zash https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Minutes_of_the_2018_Summit:_Day_two#3._SPAM
  482. MattJ lovetox, because "following through" typically requires multiple interoperable implementations
  483. MattJ which a single XEP author can't do, and even if everyone in the individual projects agrees it's a good thing to do, there are other priorities...
  484. lovetox for draft status you dont need implementations or?
  485. MattJ No, but I'm assuming by "follow through" you include implementing
  486. lovetox hm no i meant the author adjusts the xep after feedback
  487. MattJ Oh right, sure
  488. lovetox it seems people maybe think experimental xeps are not changed, so they add new ones
  489. lovetox because i dont see why the first abuse report XEP 161 could not add the example to use it with blocking
  490. Zash creates https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Spam
  491. Zash What XEPs are there, what's the good and bad of each? Write down there.
  492. Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0268.html
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  496. MattJ Ah, that's the one I was looking for
  497. MattJ It perfectly fits "easy to reuse for use cases we didn't think about" :)
  498. MattJ It doesn't fit "easy to use"
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  501. Zash I think 377 is more in the spirit of simple clients, complex servers
  502. Zash IODEF might be fine to generate from the server and send wherever
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  504. MattJ Yes, agreed
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  509. Ge0rG I know that I sound like a broken record, but in the current situation, if a user needs to report spam, it essentially means the admin is a lazy bastards who doesn't do due diligence
  510. Zash Yes
  511. MattJ Ge0rG, so you filter 100% of spam?
  512. MattJ and I know you don't, so follow-up question: wouldn't you like feedback to know about stuff that slipped through your net?
  513. Zash This mostly being taken care of by server-side black box magic does reduce the apparent need of these reporting mechanisms
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  527. Ge0rG the deployment of a reporting mechanism prior to a black box magic filter won't do anybody any good.
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  529. MattJ The black box magic filter needs data
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  531. Zash Black box 22
  532. Ge0rG I'm in the position to make use of such a reporting, because I'm filtering out 99% of spam, so I'll only receive maybe 0.1% of reports. Other server admins don't have a black box, so they are going to receive 10% of their server's spam. Based on the typical 10% engagement rate.
  533. MattJ Sure
  534. Ge0rG We need to teach everybody to walk before giving them wings.
  535. MattJ But I'd argue that it is better to have the mechanism in the server and clients, even if it isn't connected to anything more than "block this JID"
  536. Ge0rG MattJ: no. It's actually worse.
  537. MattJ Waiting until we perfect magic boxes until we deploy this is the wrong approach
  538. Ge0rG MattJ: blocking an individual JID won't have any impact on the amount of spam received by a user. But the ineffectivity of the spam report button will teach them not to use it.
  539. MattJ I'm not sure I agree with that
  540. MattJ (that they won't use it)
  541. Ge0rG MattJ: if you find out that something doesn't work, will you keep using it?
  542. MattJ If it's as easy to click "close tab" as it is to click "report and close tab"
  543. MattJ They won't find out, that's the beauty
  544. Ge0rG It's never as easy.
  545. MattJ I receive spam in my inbox, I still report it
  546. Ge0rG They report and block, half an hour later they receive the same spam from a different JID.
  547. Zash The Algoritm thanks you for the input.
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  550. MattJ Ge0rG, I'm not denying that will happen
  551. Ge0rG MattJ: you also assume that your report isn't merely silently logged into prosody.log without any further action
  552. MattJ Do I?
  553. MattJ I think you're over-thinking things on behalf of users
  554. MattJ If they continue to receive spam they'll likely just stop using the service, client, protocol
  555. MattJ regardless of whether there was a report button or not
  556. MattJ So the absence of a report button is really not a fix for anything
  557. MattJ (I have actually lost contacts who stopped using XMPP entirely when they received daily spam)
  558. Ge0rG Ah, it's too late already.
  559. Zash WE'RE DOOMED
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  561. Ge0rG You can do whatever you want, and you can deploy whatever you want, wherever you want. Feel free to focus your efforts on re-solving the 99% of spam problem.
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  594. pep. I know many people who just continue using IRC/Freenode even with the spamwaves when server operators are almost useless.. I don't think a button would help much during these tbh
  595. mathieui freenode is kind of a specific population
  596. mathieui (and even then, spam is much easier to deal with in a single IRC network)
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