XSF Discussion - 2019-03-23

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  111. Ge0rG

    pep.: most have set their channels to allow registered users only, making them effectively useless for end user support

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  114. ralphm


  115. ralphm

    Registering your nick is very common for that platform?

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  119. Wiktor

    For irc? It's a measure to combat spam. Last time freenode was attacked they required registered accounts, some channels still do.

  120. Ge0rG

    ralphm: most OSS projects offer a web chat for support.

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  136. Ge0rG

    If you have some specific problem with a tool, you probably will rather give up in frustration than attempt to register an identity with an obscure 1990s underground network, especially through a web browser that doesn't even properly support identity management for that network

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  138. ralphm

    Hope you realize we are also working on a 1990s technology.

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  154. lovetox

    ietf site is down

  155. lovetox

    did anyone remember all the standards

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  161. Andrew Nenakhov

    Oh noes

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  193. Seve

    Hopefully they can fix the site now with https://ietf.org/blog/nokia-globalhost/ :D

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  357. Guus

    In XEP-0313 MAM, section 3.5 specifies: "Servers MUST NOT include the <stanza-id/> element in messages addressed to JIDs that do not have permissions to access the archive, such as a usersโ€™s outgoing messages to their contacts."

  358. Guus

    Why is that a MUST NOT?

  359. Guus

    (XEP-0359 on the ID value of stanza-id: "The value of the 'id' attribute should not provide any further information besides the opaque ID itself. Entities observing the value MUST NOT be able to infer any information from it, e.g. the size of the message archive. The value of 'id' MUST be considered a non-secret value.")

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  361. Zash

    If you can't query it, what purpose does it serve?

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  364. Guus

    it does serve as a unique identifier. I'm not saying it makes much sense, but the 'MUST NOT' suggests that something horrible will happen if it does go out.

  365. MattJ

    Guus, it's a combination of two things: 1) it used to be an <archived id='...' by='...' /> 2) sharing info on a need-to-know basis is a sensible default

  366. MattJ

    Now it's morphed into a generic "stanza-id" element, which just happens to share ids with the MAM archive, I think it does make less sense

  367. MattJ

    Sometimes I regret the <archived> -> <stanza-id> switch, sometimes I don't

  368. Guus


  369. Guus

    so, why would it be bad for an 'archived by' id?

  370. Guus

    I agree with it being a sensible default

  371. Guus

    but still, MUST NOT is quite strict

  372. MattJ

    Because it can be used to the client as indication that the archive may be queried?

  373. MattJ

    Why would you have an archive that someone doesn't have permission to access, and then share some of that data with them?

  374. Guus

    well, you SHOULD NOT. ๐Ÿ™‚

  375. MattJ

    But if you do, the client may assume it has permission, and will try to send you queries

  376. Guus

    which will result in errors.

  377. Guus


  378. MattJ

    So why is this a problem to you?

  379. Guus

    it's not. I was just wondering.

  380. Guus

    I thought I was missing an important security aspect, or somesuch

  381. MattJ

    On the one hand you have this argument. On the other hand you have people complaining about all the wiggle room in XEPs that use "SHOULD (NOT)" for no gain

  382. Guus

    I understand

  383. MattJ

    So there's no concrete reason I can think of right now, but that happens to be what I thought best to write at the time

  384. Guus

    that's fair.

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  386. MattJ

    If we'd been using stanza-id from the start, I doubt I would have written it that way

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  388. Guus

    I've got this annoying bit where carbons are sent off before the archiving takes place ๐Ÿ˜•

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  398. Zash

    Guus: Sounds like our MUC pre-0.11, where messages are broadcasted before passing through the part where the MAM bits were attached

  399. Ge0rG

    We need more message ids!

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  401. Zash

    You can never have enough message ids

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  417. Guus

    Zash, that sounds very much like what we have for Openfire now.

  418. Guus

    it's not very appealing to rewire all that, as it's making use of generic interceptors.

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  425. Guus

    In case of a one-on-one chat between two local users, openfire is storing a message just once (as it stores 'conversations', not per user archives). That means that both virtual 'archives' would contain the exact same identifier.

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  427. Guus

    XEP-313 says: " Thus the IDs defined in this extension MUST be unique and stable within the scope of the generating XMPP entity." which seems to allow it.

  428. Guus

    sorry, that's XEP-359

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  431. Guus

    ah, 5.2 for XEP-313 also allows it

  432. Guus


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  436. Guus

    ... I now wonder if Openfire is, in effect, maintaining a message archive for non-local users.

  437. Zash

    It would be ... interesting ... if you could query your friends archives for messages to yourself

  438. Guus

    we don't keep "per user" archives.

  439. Guus

    we keep records of conversations

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  441. Guus

    if a user queries for it's archive, that's retrieved from all conversations that the user was part of.

  442. Zash

    I mean from eg a remote server

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  444. Guus

    That might be possible with Openfire...

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  446. Guus

    I'm unsure what the retrieval query would look like, but I think we could answer the query, for all messages that you've sent on the local domain.

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  450. Guus

    ah, we're explicitly not answering the query if sent by a non-local user.

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  462. Guus

    Do we expect the archive ID to be added to <sent><forwarded> carbons, or only in <received><forwarded> ?

  463. Guus

    (the original sender doesn't get an echo of a server-generated stanza-id either, I think?)

  464. Holger

    No echo, but it must be added to <sent/> as well.

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  468. flow

    FWIW i aggree with Guus that the MUST NOT feels not well placed. I think we should simply remove the sentence if possible.

  469. MattJ

    PRs welcome, I don't think it needs a namespace bump

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  471. flow

    I also don't think it needs one. And every little bit we can remove without "downgrading" the spec reduces the noise and makes it easier to understand and implement

  472. Guus

    I wasn't making much of a statement other than that I'm trying to determine if I understood the details right.

  473. flow

    Ahh, Guus so you don't want to send a PR?

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  475. Guus

    I'm not _against_ making one

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  478. Guus

    but for now, my wife is giving me the stare ๐Ÿ™‚

  479. Guus


  480. MattJ

    I know that stare

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  482. flow

    And I always thought the stare was an uncommon phenomenom only happening to me

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  525. pep.

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0277.html TIL this is not draft

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  528. Zash


  529. Zash


  530. Zash

    That number is way too easy to confuse with https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0227.html

  531. pep.


  532. pep.

    Can we bring back bunneh to life?

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  534. Zash


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  537. pep.

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0277.html#receive can somebody explain what the Note means. I have a PR with a few typos in that XEP, I'd like to fix that as well. "Note: these alternate links were not posted by client because client can't compute them itself. These things SHOULD be inserted at server side though."

  538. pep.

    Ah I get it now

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  540. Zash

    s/posted/generated/ or somesuch

  541. pep.

    I guess posted works as well

  542. Zash

    Odd wording IMO

  543. pep.

    "These alternate links were not posted by the original client because clients can't compute them themselves. [..]", at least

  544. Zash

    included, generated, computed

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  546. pep.

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0277.html#metadata Do I understand correctly that this <item id='0'> MUST exist? :x

  547. pep.

    Or is it just if I want to provide metadata about my microblog

  548. pep.

    I think there should be a language review step before publishing :/

  549. Zash


  550. Zash

    Yet another vcard?

  551. pep.

    Seems like it

  552. pep.

    Though, it is not impossible that people have access to your microblog but not your vcard right

  553. pep.


  554. Zash

    If you (the user) made one public but not the other then maybe you had a reason for that and it seems silly to bypass that and publish your personal info in more places

  555. pep.

    I'm not especially arguing for this metadata entry, but you might want to have a lesser version of your vcard to show for people looking at your (public) microblog, and a more complete version for your contacts

  556. pep.

    I mean I'm not arguing for implementing this in 277. That could be 292 with a different set of ACLs :-ยฐ

  557. pep.

    But anyway, we're going astray from my original question

  558. Zash

    ... you want Bunneh secret sause?

  559. pep.

    I assume it's not a MUST then. it's an "if then MUST".

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  561. Zash

    Is the goal to not require explicit server support?

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  563. pep.


  564. Zash

    There is no "discovering support" section, I think those were mandatory?

  565. Zash

    Problematic to expect the server to maybe do stuff without any way to know that.

  566. Zash

    Personally I wish you could just post Atom to a node and be happy, but like every federated social feed protocol, the pain begins with replies and comments.

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