XSF Discussion - 2019-03-23

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  111. Ge0rG pep.: most have set their channels to allow registered users only, making them effectively useless for end user support
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  114. ralphm Why?
  115. ralphm Registering your nick is very common for that platform?
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  119. Wiktor For irc? It's a measure to combat spam. Last time freenode was attacked they required registered accounts, some channels still do.
  120. Ge0rG ralphm: most OSS projects offer a web chat for support.
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  136. Ge0rG If you have some specific problem with a tool, you probably will rather give up in frustration than attempt to register an identity with an obscure 1990s underground network, especially through a web browser that doesn't even properly support identity management for that network
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  138. ralphm Hope you realize we are also working on a 1990s technology.
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  154. lovetox ietf site is down
  155. lovetox did anyone remember all the standards
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  161. Andrew Nenakhov Oh noes
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  193. Seve Hopefully they can fix the site now with https://ietf.org/blog/nokia-globalhost/ :D
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  357. Guus In XEP-0313 MAM, section 3.5 specifies: "Servers MUST NOT include the <stanza-id/> element in messages addressed to JIDs that do not have permissions to access the archive, such as a users’s outgoing messages to their contacts."
  358. Guus Why is that a MUST NOT?
  359. Guus (XEP-0359 on the ID value of stanza-id: "The value of the 'id' attribute should not provide any further information besides the opaque ID itself. Entities observing the value MUST NOT be able to infer any information from it, e.g. the size of the message archive. The value of 'id' MUST be considered a non-secret value.")
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  361. Zash If you can't query it, what purpose does it serve?
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  364. Guus it does serve as a unique identifier. I'm not saying it makes much sense, but the 'MUST NOT' suggests that something horrible will happen if it does go out.
  365. MattJ Guus, it's a combination of two things: 1) it used to be an <archived id='...' by='...' /> 2) sharing info on a need-to-know basis is a sensible default
  366. MattJ Now it's morphed into a generic "stanza-id" element, which just happens to share ids with the MAM archive, I think it does make less sense
  367. MattJ Sometimes I regret the <archived> -> <stanza-id> switch, sometimes I don't
  368. Guus heh
  369. Guus so, why would it be bad for an 'archived by' id?
  370. Guus I agree with it being a sensible default
  371. Guus but still, MUST NOT is quite strict
  372. MattJ Because it can be used to the client as indication that the archive may be queried?
  373. MattJ Why would you have an archive that someone doesn't have permission to access, and then share some of that data with them?
  374. Guus well, you SHOULD NOT. 🙂
  375. MattJ But if you do, the client may assume it has permission, and will try to send you queries
  376. Guus which will result in errors.
  377. Guus meh
  378. MattJ So why is this a problem to you?
  379. Guus it's not. I was just wondering.
  380. Guus I thought I was missing an important security aspect, or somesuch
  381. MattJ On the one hand you have this argument. On the other hand you have people complaining about all the wiggle room in XEPs that use "SHOULD (NOT)" for no gain
  382. Guus I understand
  383. MattJ So there's no concrete reason I can think of right now, but that happens to be what I thought best to write at the time
  384. Guus that's fair.
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  386. MattJ If we'd been using stanza-id from the start, I doubt I would have written it that way
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  388. Guus I've got this annoying bit where carbons are sent off before the archiving takes place 😕
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  398. Zash Guus: Sounds like our MUC pre-0.11, where messages are broadcasted before passing through the part where the MAM bits were attached
  399. Ge0rG We need more message ids!
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  401. Zash You can never have enough message ids
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  417. Guus Zash, that sounds very much like what we have for Openfire now.
  418. Guus it's not very appealing to rewire all that, as it's making use of generic interceptors.
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  425. Guus In case of a one-on-one chat between two local users, openfire is storing a message just once (as it stores 'conversations', not per user archives). That means that both virtual 'archives' would contain the exact same identifier.
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  427. Guus XEP-313 says: " Thus the IDs defined in this extension MUST be unique and stable within the scope of the generating XMPP entity." which seems to allow it.
  428. Guus sorry, that's XEP-359
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  431. Guus ah, 5.2 for XEP-313 also allows it
  432. Guus nevermind
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  436. Guus ... I now wonder if Openfire is, in effect, maintaining a message archive for non-local users.
  437. Zash It would be ... interesting ... if you could query your friends archives for messages to yourself
  438. Guus we don't keep "per user" archives.
  439. Guus we keep records of conversations
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  441. Guus if a user queries for it's archive, that's retrieved from all conversations that the user was part of.
  442. Zash I mean from eg a remote server
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  444. Guus That might be possible with Openfire...
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  446. Guus I'm unsure what the retrieval query would look like, but I think we could answer the query, for all messages that you've sent on the local domain.
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  450. Guus ah, we're explicitly not answering the query if sent by a non-local user.
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  462. Guus Do we expect the archive ID to be added to <sent><forwarded> carbons, or only in <received><forwarded> ?
  463. Guus (the original sender doesn't get an echo of a server-generated stanza-id either, I think?)
  464. Holger No echo, but it must be added to <sent/> as well.
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  468. flow FWIW i aggree with Guus that the MUST NOT feels not well placed. I think we should simply remove the sentence if possible.
  469. MattJ PRs welcome, I don't think it needs a namespace bump
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  471. flow I also don't think it needs one. And every little bit we can remove without "downgrading" the spec reduces the noise and makes it easier to understand and implement
  472. Guus I wasn't making much of a statement other than that I'm trying to determine if I understood the details right.
  473. flow Ahh, Guus so you don't want to send a PR?
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  475. Guus I'm not _against_ making one
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  478. Guus but for now, my wife is giving me the stare 🙂
  479. Guus afk
  480. MattJ I know that stare
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  482. flow And I always thought the stare was an uncommon phenomenom only happening to me
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  525. pep. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0277.html TIL this is not draft
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  528. Zash !
  529. Zash Oh
  530. Zash That number is way too easy to confuse with https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0227.html
  531. pep. heh
  532. pep. Can we bring back bunneh to life?
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  534. Zash Necromancy?
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  537. pep. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0277.html#receive can somebody explain what the Note means. I have a PR with a few typos in that XEP, I'd like to fix that as well. "Note: these alternate links were not posted by client because client can't compute them itself. These things SHOULD be inserted at server side though."
  538. pep. Ah I get it now
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  540. Zash s/posted/generated/ or somesuch
  541. pep. I guess posted works as well
  542. Zash Odd wording IMO
  543. pep. "These alternate links were not posted by the original client because clients can't compute them themselves. [..]", at least
  544. Zash included, generated, computed
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  546. pep. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0277.html#metadata Do I understand correctly that this <item id='0'> MUST exist? :x
  547. pep. Or is it just if I want to provide metadata about my microblog
  548. pep. I think there should be a language review step before publishing :/
  549. Zash Huh
  550. Zash Yet another vcard?
  551. pep. Seems like it
  552. pep. Though, it is not impossible that people have access to your microblog but not your vcard right
  553. pep. (vcard4)
  554. Zash If you (the user) made one public but not the other then maybe you had a reason for that and it seems silly to bypass that and publish your personal info in more places
  555. pep. I'm not especially arguing for this metadata entry, but you might want to have a lesser version of your vcard to show for people looking at your (public) microblog, and a more complete version for your contacts
  556. pep. I mean I'm not arguing for implementing this in 277. That could be 292 with a different set of ACLs :-°
  557. pep. But anyway, we're going astray from my original question
  558. Zash ... you want Bunneh secret sause?
  559. pep. I assume it's not a MUST then. it's an "if then MUST".
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  561. Zash Is the goal to not require explicit server support?
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  563. pep. hmm?
  564. Zash There is no "discovering support" section, I think those were mandatory?
  565. Zash Problematic to expect the server to maybe do stuff without any way to know that.
  566. Zash Personally I wish you could just post Atom to a node and be happy, but like every federated social feed protocol, the pain begins with replies and comments.
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