Seve, Thanks for this. I've not looked when the WG meeting itself is, I thought I might listen in.
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Seve
dwd, meeting happening now, I can't follow it but the room is this one: mls@jabber.ietf.org
Seve
More slides are being shared there
dwd
Ah - you'll want the audio etc too.
dwd
But I don't think I really understand more than one word in five when they start the serious cryptography.
Seve
:D
Seve
Yeah, there's audio stream available as well, but I'm at work anyway, can't follow anything (implying I would understand something, which is most probably not :D)
pep.
PFF you're away from the list one day and there's already a full thread on markup formats
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Zash
Was a week ago a good time to poke someone about https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-acme-email-tls ?
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flow
dwd, appreciate your email response to evgeny
Guus
as did I.
flow
Although I have to admit that evgeny's mail made me chuckle.
flow
But yeah, neither carlo's email nor the response added much or even any value to the discussion
Guus
Let's not single out one person - there's a lot of this going on, sadly.
Guus
It causes me (and thus very likely others) to not participate in discussions like this.
Guus
which hurts standards development (not that I'm bringing to much to the table, but if more people are discouraged, this becomes an issue real fast).
Guus
I literally discarded a draft email to that thread, for "I don't want to waste time arguing right now" reasons.
Ge0rG
the whole thread was tl;dr. Am I missing out on drama?
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flow
Feels more like a holy war than drama
Guus
much of the same: "everything is broken and you're not dipshits for even considering other options than my solution."
Guus
it's... discouraging.
flow
I tend to believe that this is something that can not be settled in a discussion, but has to be settled by the ecosystem
Guus
much of the same: "everything is broken and you're dipshits for even considering other options than my solution."
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Guus
flow I tend to agree. Sadly, implemenation in the ecosystem takes time, which fuels the 'why isn't this fixed yet' thought.
dwd
There's a conversation about behaviour in technical debate in the IETF list at the moment, but I'll say here what I'm currently writing there:
dwd
Yes, people should not be assholes - because it's vastly less efficient as well as the more obvious social things.
Guus
"... and you're all dipshits for not taking my word for that!" <-- right? 😉
MattJ
To be fair, maybe I missed something, but apart from two emails I found the discussions quite constructive so far
dwd
But also, it's worth picking out the technical argument from things and treating it independently from the aggression.
Guus
MattJ I'm not ruling out I've started to be oversensitive at a certain pressure point.
dwd
MattJ, I could cheerfully point out several emails in there that I felt added very little, if anything, to the technical debate.
dwd
MattJ, And, in addition, had a distinctly aggressive air.
Seve
"Please, everyone, ensure your messages are like an efficient light bulb -
optimise for light, not heat." very spot on :D I like it very much (and it works with the jabber icon)
flow
MattJ, possibly. I also found the thread to be civilized for large parts. The "holy war" remark was not meant towards that specific thread, but the situation regarding rich(?) text in XMPP as whole.
Zash
Can we un-deprecate 71?
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MattJ
We can do anything, if you can convince the council
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Guus
It was deprecated solely because of the security implications, right? Specifically: that it's very complex to have an implementation that is secure.
Guus
Even though the spec itself does not have obvious security issues.
Zash
And the security problems are in the Web, not the spec. "Not markdown" has the same problems.
MattJ
Also the same web clients that had security flaws in their XHTML-IM often also had security flaws elsewhere (like not escaping nicknames)
MattJ
nothing to do with XHTML-IM
Zash
In fact, you can get the same problems without rich text support
MattJ
But not using XHTML-IM invites people to just dump it into the DOM✎
MattJ
But using XHTML-IM invites people to just dump it into the DOM ✏
MattJ
waqas wrote a safe sanitizer for it, fwiw, and it's not complex
Zash
People will just dump "not markdown" through a markdown lib into HTML and dump that into the DOM
dwd
Well, the feeling in Council wasm't that XHTML-IM was the sole source of security issues, it was that it was very hard to avoid security issues.
MattJ
(it's linked from the modernxmpp docs)
dwd
And, in addition, that many uses of XHTML-IM went beyond the subset it mandates anyway.
Guus
I'm biased on this. Good thing I'm not on council 🙂
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Guus
not biased - but I'm undecided.
MattJ
The opposite of biased? :)
Guus
I can't make up my mind.
MattJ
I agree it's not a simple issue
Guus
And if you're making fun of my English, I move that we start using Dutch as the primary language in here. Where I have the same problem, but at least you won't notice then. 😉
MattJ
However I tend to agree with Andrew Nenakhov that we shouldn't artificially limit what can be done (e.g. about text in hyperlinks)
Guusneeds moar coffee.
MattJ
Otherwise people will just make up their own stuff which will probably be worse in the long run
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Guus
agreed.
dwd
I'm also a big fan of "I've implemented this and it works".
MattJ
Right
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dwd
Not saying we should just adopt those ideas wholesale and verbatim, but it does strongly suggest there's some solid ideas to get from the work.
MattJ
Also the argument that OOB exists and works isn't accurate, OOB is a hack implemented by Conversations and adopted by others
MattJ
I'm not against OOB (in fact I like it), but Conversations has broken it (<desc> can't be used, for example)
dwd
Also it's implemented by others is wildly varying ways - I've been doing a lot with it recently.
dwd
Gajim, for example, requires the URL in the <body/> to triger rendering the OOB.
and there are two reasons, one of which is that Daniel didn't want to have to change the DB schema :)
Zash
And before that it was just the URL by itself in <body>
MattJ
The other is that it's a sensible fallback, and ensures that a user of a fallback client client doesn't lose any info
pep.
"I'm also a big fan of "I've implemented this and it works".", Poezio and gajim have implemented xhtml-im and it works :P
MattJ
:)
jonas’
10:39:10 dwd> I'm also a big fan of "I've implemented this and it works".
jonas’
I’m not
jonas’
especially not with influential implementations.
jonas’
because it’s typically already deployed in the wild at that point and then everyone *has* to follow suit
jonas’
(Styling intended)
pep.
Yeah, I'm also half-half on that, mostly because of what jonas’ says
dwd
Hence the follow-up statement.
pep.
I need to reply to that thread anyway.. noticed a few funny statements (if only a few)
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lovetox
you dont understand the reasons behind the oob thing
lovetox
also its weird dwd that you want to control what the client of another person shows or does
lovetox
its really nothing you should think about
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lovetox
btw you dont have to use oob at all with Gajim, if the user chooses he can let Gajim show and load *all* links, it doesnt matter if they have a oob element or not
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Ge0rG
The Web is so great, we can't do XMPP without it.
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dwd
lovetox, I'd just like to send an image to someone. It's not about controlling if the user sees it inline or not, it's about expressing intent.
dwd
lovetox, Compare and contrast with RFC 2183, which allows people to indicate if the MIME part is intended to be an attached file or an inline portion of the message.
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lovetox
yes your intent is declared when you use oob
lovetox
you dont need to follow body==oob url logic
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lovetox
if a user uses http upload to share a picture, he communicates a URL, i as a client add a oob tag to tell another client, that the intent is a shared image that the user specifically uploaded, so not a copy paste of URL from somewhere
lovetox
because we also need a fallback for clients that dont support oob, this results in oob url == body
lovetox
for this particular case of sharing something
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lovetox
that does not mean that oob cant be used in other ways , like adding a description
lovetox
if your client has support for adding a description to uploaded content, tell me and i will make it look good in Gajim
lovetox
i didnt saw something like that though until now
MattJ
lovetox, the problem is that if you put anything in <desc> it is ignored by Conversations, and any other client
MattJ
so the sensible thing to do would be to put the <desc> content also in <body> for fallback clients
lovetox
yeah and? open a issue on their tracker for it
MattJ
But then Conversations will stop displaying it inline
MattJ
Daniel knows about it and doesn't want to fix it, because it would require a schema change in the Conversations database
lovetox
yeah and?! Because one client does not support something now we stop using it?
MattJ
I mean, he didn't say he would never fix it, but it's not priority, and it means that <desc> can't be used in practice today
lovetox
i dont get this kind of argument
MattJ
Tell that to all the users of Conversations :)
dwd
lovetox, But opening an issue on the tracker would surely be trying to control how a client presents some data?
MattJ
"When your client sends me a message, it doesn't display"
Zash
"It doesn't work in IE"
lovetox
then he doesnt see the description
lovetox
whats the difference to now where you cant add one
lovetox
because it doesnt show it inline anymore
lovetox
so you want to control how the image is displayed
Zash
If you wanna make everything worse, send the description in a separate message.
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Ge0rG
Link Mauve: didn't you intend to post to standards@ about MUC Avatars and how to move forward?
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Zash
Didn't I intent to just load mod_pep onto a MUC and call it a day?
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Seve
>yeah and?! Because one client does not support something now we stop using it?
Out of context somebody would think we should rename XMPP to Conversations :)
Ge0rG
"ejabberd - a Conversations™ compatible server"
Ge0rG
It would be funny if it wasn't about the abuse of trademarks and the sad state of XMPP.
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Andrew Nenakhov
Well since xmpp stands for messaging and *Presence* protocol, I could hardly call Conversations an XMPP client at all 😂 XMP, or XMPp at best
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pep.
"MattJ> But then Conversations will stop displaying it inline" maybe someday we'll finally rename to The Conversations Protocol.
jonas’
conversations does funny things when you simply slap an OOB tag on all the links
pep.
Well that's a conversations problem..
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Andrew Nenakhov
Btw, is it just me unable to find a setting, or there are no roster groups at all?
Zash
What do you mean?
flow
Andrew Nenakhov, possibly there are not roster groups at all
Zash
Define "roster groups"
Seve
They are, but look like tags, I think
flow
you don't have to add every aspect of the protocol to your (G)UI, and some argue that they do more harm than good
Andrew Nenakhov
Seve, I can't find even tags now
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dwd
Roster groups in COnversations are indeed displayed as tags. It's a reasonable rendering of what they are, in fairness.
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Andrew Nenakhov
I agree with that semantically they are tags. I just somehow don't see them at all now.
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Zash
There's a setting somewhere that make them show up in the "start conversation" view
Ge0rG
How does Xabber handle roster groups? And how are they named in the UI?
Andrew Nenakhov
Like it should. ☝️
Ge0rG
...
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jonas’
Andrew Nenakhov, oh, so you’re doing tags, too? :)
Andrew Nenakhov
Of course, no )
jonas’
hm, I find tags much more useful
Andrew Nenakhov
My co-workers don't. We are using Xabber for Web as a daily driver desktop chat app. Briefly experimented with tag based groups, quicky dropped cause everyone hated it
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Andrew Nenakhov
So like, 'redsolution' shared roster groups to list all active colleagues and their presences, 'developers' 'managers'
Ge0rG
+1 for tags. Just to annoy Андрей.
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Andrew Nenakhov
Lol
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Ge0rG
the concept of a contact list is deprecated anyway. all you need is a search/address bar where you can type things.
Andrew Nenakhov
Tell that to my managers, lol
Ge0rG
aren't you the manager? I thought so...
Andrew Nenakhov
Then tell me how far they've sent you
jonas’
Andrew Nenakhov, https://sotecware.net/files/mlxc/02-tagsinput.webm FWIW
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Ge0rG
Andrew Nenakhov: or is everybody managed by FSB now?
Andrew Nenakhov
jonas’, the main use pattern of using groups was to scroll over them to see who's online, sorted by relevant groups.
jonas’
Andrew Nenakhov, I see
jonas’
I became headaches when thinking about how to deal with the situation where a user attempts to do conflicting changes to the same contact in multiple groups
jonas’
and I prefer the tags UI anyways
Andrew Nenakhov
jonas’, like, what conflicting changes?
jonas’
Andrew Nenakhov, or to put it another way: I found it to be confusing behaviour when changing a contacts name in one group affects the contact in another group
Andrew Nenakhov
jonas’, I don't find it confusing. Maybe because I have good interfaces.
jonas’
maybe
Ge0rG
if it's a tree, it's confusing.
Ge0rG
because you imply that one contact is multiple leafs.
Ge0rG
and if it's not a tree but a DAG, it's even more confusing because nobody will understand that.
lovetox
hm tags sound like a good idea
jonas’
lovetox, I think they are! https://sotecware.net/files/mlxc/02-tagsinput.webm
Ge0rG
lovetox: please fix the dialogs where a JID is split into locapart and domain first
jonas’
I have another clip somewhere where I showcase the UI to manage tags on a contact, but I can’t seem to find it
Andrew Nenakhov
jonas’, anyway, I fully understand the reasoning behind tags approach. It just didn't stick with my personnel do we dropped that option for now
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lovetox
Ge0rG the account creation dialog is on my list
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Ge0rG
lovetox: I recently encountered it in the Join MUC dialog
lovetox
but it is a big thing, because it contains so many workflows
Ge0rG
lovetox: also are you following https://docs.modernxmpp.org ?
lovetox
IBR, Anonymous registration, proxy settings etc
lovetox
this must all be done in this one dialog
Ge0rG
account creation is kind of special, because you need to specify the server first
if you think about it, to have a really good account creation/adding GUI you need to support a shitload of things
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lovetox
you need Forms support with nice looking GUI, you need catpcha support with Forms, you need BOSH, http proxys, socks5 proxies, a lib that supports IBR really good with giving meaningful errors if something does not work
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lovetox
and at last you need to handle the 7 different allowed methods that a server can offer you the IBR registration
Ge0rG
lovetox: what's your point, again?
MattJ
lovetox, if there really are 7 (which I hope not), I'm pretty confident you can ignore some of those
lovetox
that it sounds trivial to make a good add/creation dialog
lovetox
but it entails many things to do it really good
MattJ
I can think of simple (no form), form, or out-of-band
Zash
MattJ: Don't look at mod_register_redirect
MattJ
lovetox, would really appreciate anything you can bring to the modernxmpp docs
Ge0rG
lovetox: I never claimed it's easy :D
lovetox
MattJ i referred to the table of death in the IBR xep
Ge0rG
my own client only implements half-a-method
MattJ
Ha
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MattJ
It doesn't actually seem that bad
Ge0rG
out-of-band registration _is_ bad.
MattJ
The table is possibly a little excessive. For a client that supports forms, it's basically telling you to always use that if the server offers it
Ge0rG
I mean it's working more or less on PCs, where it's not so hard to type a username and a password, but it really sucks on mobile
pep.
Ge0rG, agreed
Ge0rG
_especially_ if you need to solve some 64px klingon captcha on your 1080p 4" display.
Ge0rG
(which reminds me of the misdesigned xmpp compliance badges with the tiny fonts)
Zash
And guess how many clients actually support anything but username+password
pep.
You're making me sad
Ge0rG
3?
jonas’
Ge0rG, by "number installed" instead of "number of software projects"? likely! :)
Zash
This is where it turns out those 3 are the libpurple ones.
Ge0rG
somebody write an android transverter from data forms to ui widges
Zash
!
Zash
Pidgin supports dataforms
Zash
Or, some sort of extended IBR at least
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Guus
Board: I'm getting a service person visiting my house somewhere today. He hasn't been here yet. Luck shall have it that he'll arrive just when the board meeting starts.
Guus
I might be unresponsive.
MattJ
Noted, thanks!
Ge0rG
I've heard that moparisthebest volunteers for the Editor role.
Zash
Yeah it's the form.
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Guus
That guy is pulling up now.
Guus
Impeccable timing
Guus
Afk
Seve
MattJ, feels like it's just you and me
dwd
Your friendly ex-officio COuncil Chair is here too.
nyco
_o/
Ge0rG
that Council Chair could do their voting duty as well :D
dwd
Ge0rG, Yeah.
MattJ
Hey
ralphmbangs gavel
ralphm
0. Welcome + agenda
ralphm
Who? What?
MattJ
Me
Seveis here!
ralphm
Seve: I think you had something to say about the agenda?
Seve
Yes ralphm.
Seve
I moved a bit the items that we have for discussion to give them some time as well. I was fearing that we would stick to juts one and don't discuss the rest.
Seve
just*
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ralphm
Ok.
Seve
Some of them look like they need less time than others, so I thought this would be a good idea to have things done.
MattJ
Sounds good
ralphm
1. Minute taker
ralphm
dwd?
dwd
I will, sadly, be disappearing into a meeting shortly, sorry.
ralphm
:-(
ralphm
Anyone?
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Guus
I'm back
ralphm
Had network issues.
ralphm
Back, too.
ralphm
2. Server outage post-mortem
ralphm
Guus' point
Guus
We've discussed this two weeks ago, iirc
ralphm
Right, I wasn't sure if it needs to be on here still.
MattJ
We did. Not sure we actually got anywhere though, or if there is anywhere left to go
Seve
Don't recall any action
Guus
I'd like to see if we want have improvements, and if so, discuss how we improve things.
Guus
ralphm volunteered to talk to intosi during practice about this.
Guus
(unsure what practice)
ralphm
Indeed I did, and haven't yet, so I will try today.
ralphm
We have rehearsals on Thursdays, me on drums, him on bass.
ralphm
3. Automagically merge PRs from authors.
Guus
Let's, as board, decide if we want things to improve somehow
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Guus
if not, we need no furhter action
Guus
if so, we should facilitate furhter action.
ralphm
MattJ?
Guus
ah, we're moving on.
ralphm
Guus: I'll first have that chat.
ralphm
(and put it as a todo in Trello)
dwd
Presumably you'd want to merge only on Experimental?
MattJ
dwd, yes
MattJ
This was prompted by a remark from zinid, and how he's frustrated by the round-trip times regarding publishing to (Experimental) specs where he is the author
MattJ
He'd like to commit, and see it rendered
ralphm
How would you implement this? Just allow authors merge control and have them merge themselves?
MattJ
My counter was that PRs are a typical workflow in just about any open-source project
Ge0rG
Is that worth the trouble of implementing some kind of access control system?
MattJ
Well right now the Editors are the access control system
ralphm
If he just wants to have things rendered, local rendering works just fine for me?
MattJ
ralphm, rendered for others to reference as well
Ge0rG
You can rather easily publish the rendered html
MattJ
Ge0rG, not on xmpp.org, obviously
ralphm
MattJ: do you have an idea on this would work?
ralphm
how
Guus
If we can automate more, I don't see harm in doing that. If the task of automating things takes more resources than doing things manually the next few years, I see no point in automating stuff.
Ge0rG
MattJ: obviously. But replacing the editors with some kind of bot that can check the identity of a github user against the author field in the XEP is not trivial
MattJ
I'd like to hear Editor feedback on this idea - I know jonas has made a lot of progress with automation
Guus
a second pair of eyes before we _publish_ things seems desirable, though.
Guus
What's there for board to decide, here?
MattJ
I'm just relaying feedback from an author, that the times between submission and publication can be long, and trying to avoid the "but we're all volunteers" response
Guus
if Editors choose to further automate things, yey for them.
ralphm
I'd be ok for the Editors to form their opinion on this and change (or not change) their processes accordingly.
MattJ
Guus, Board oversees the submission process, so I think it's a relevant point to receive feedback on that process from the people using it
Guus
we should try and optimize things, sure. People could also volunteer to take up the role of Editor - something that was requested repeatedly.
ralphm
I don't think it really affects our procedures.
Guus
MattJ I don't see this as a process change though?
ralphm
Guus: agreed, more Editors FTW
MattJ
Guus, not necessarily, no
MattJ
But you did make the comment about "a second pair of eyes"
MattJ
Anyway, if we want to conclude that this is up to Editors, that's fine by me
Guus
I'm not against automation at all. If Editors want this, and if we find someone to do the automation, by all means.
ralphm
MattJ: I do think for now this is up to the Editors
MattJ
Sounds good to me
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ralphm
4. High Profile XMPP Uses
ralphm
I saw a bunch of things on Trello, what do we need to discuss?
Seve
We were brainstorming, to put it simple, I think.
Seve
Trying to figure out what can we offer to these "High Profile XMPP Users"
Guus
I'd like to see a plan developed that leads to someone reaching out to organisations.
Guus
we can discuss that plan. 🙂
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ralphm
Right, in that case, let's put it at the top for next week.
ralphm
5. Tigase & XMPP Logo
ralphm
nyco: what's this?
nyco
they wanna use the logo, asking for authorisation
Guus
This is explicitly about the XMPP logo, and not related to the Jabber trademark?
nyco
yep, I could ask, to double check
dwd
The logo is, IIRC, public domain isn't it?
ralphm
I *think* it is licensed Expat/MIT
Guus
I was going to *think* the same.
Guus
do we have that written down somewhere? 🙂
MattJ
I was pretty sure so, but I can't find any reference right now
ralphm
We have had. From my recollection it falls under our IPR policy. Would be good if stpeter remembers.
ralphm
I'll send an e-mail to ask
dwd
In any case, the copyright is owned by the XSF, so you can license it however you like, I think.
ralphm
Yes, but if we already have, it would be nice to know which one we used.
Guus
let's ask Peter, and make sure to re-instate a description on the website.
Guus
for future reference.
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Seve
+1
Guus
Can we preemptively tell Tigase that they can use it?
MattJ
Seems fine to me
ralphm
Yes
Guus
seems like we need to figure out the 'how', not the 'if' they can use it.
nyco
I'd say yes, I use it without asking... should I remove it?
all board members will meet at the same time-of-day as today.
nyco
that's clearer for my poor mind
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ralphm
Please, can somebody retroactively make minutes from this?
Guus
it'll just not be 7 times 24 hours later, and for US-based people, the time-of-day changes, as compared to today.
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Guus
The XSF Events calendar has the right agenda item for the board meeting - just follow that, and you're fine. 🙂
ralphm
Guus: it is pinned to local time, right?
Guus
yes. It is pinned to local (I think London) time, and explicitly not to UTC.
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nyco
weird, in scifi movies, when a spaceship reaches a planet, no one ever asks about time and timezones, they just land
earth should do the same: one unique time for the whole planet, no timezone, just a "planetzone"
and yes, some countries would have their mornings at 0:00 and some would go party in the night at 07:00 😉
MattJ
UTC, yes
Ge0rG
the EU is trying that right now.
MattJ
:)
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nyco
(and the reference point would be Paris, of course...)
Guus
nyco whenever a spaceship arrives at a planet, they can raise the relevant ruling party immediately. They're not even in the bathroom, ever, let alone asleep.
Ge0rG
But unfortunately, it's harder to change the local starting time of events than the offset of local time to the sun.
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nyco
in the future, the human does no pee anymore
Guus
diapers.
Zash
Viva das .Beat
ralphm
Time in Star Trek is complicated.
Ge0rG
ralphm: s/in Star Trek//
ralphm
I think in general they use a 24h clock, but DS9 is on a 26h day schedule (to align with Bajor)
Zash
It's all wibbly-wobbly
Guus
Interstellar (the movie) is fun with time. Unsure if it's accurate, but it's fun.
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Ge0rG
ralphm: yes, they are using their cis-male-privileged Earth time everywhere.
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ralphm
…
Guus
I've started re-reruns of voyager - amazed to find that the borg don't play a role at all in the first few seasons. Totally forgot about that.
Ge0rG
8472 is my favorite species.
Neustradamus
About XEP-0308: Last Message Correction : https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0308.html
-> It is not specified about log, when we changed the last message, the log has 2 entries (not only 1), it is possible to add a solution?
Ge0rG
(it also happens to be a TCP port that's not on the nmap top1000 list)
Ge0rG
Neustradamus: what log?
Guus
the weak will perish.
Ge0rG
but TNG was peak Star Trek anyway. VOY had a horrible ending, and DS9 was merely space soap opera
Neustradamus
Ge0rG: Log in the client and saved by the server
Ge0rG
Neustradamus: fix the client?
Neustradamus
It is not specified in the XEP no?
The problem is for server and client no?
It is an example on this XMPP software server, but it is for other XMPP server softwares too.
Ge0rG
The prosody log display might need support for LMC
Neustradamus
Holger (for ejabberd), Kev (for M-Link), Guus (for Openfire), MattJ (for Prosody), what do you think?
Guus
I like Discovery too.
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MattJ
Neustradamus, I think... patches welcome
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MattJ
I'm working on higher priority things right now
Neustradamus
The XEP must be patched for it for have a 1.0.1, we are ok?
lovetox
Neustradamus you want to replace a message when you correct it?
lovetox
then you lose the information what was corrected
lovetox
so the client cant show you what the message was before it was corrected
lovetox
why do you think the server should do this? the client can fuse the messages after receiving it
Neustradamus
To have only the last message in log, not the old message and the new message, example the Test 1 -> Test 2 for minutes ago, there are 2 entries in log.
Ge0rG
A log on the web is a different thing than a server archive.
Zash
(Technically, that is the server archive, with some transform)
Ge0rG
Yes. But then you can instrument the Some Transform.
Zash
You can. Have fun!
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Ge0rG
I'm working on higher priority things right now
Ge0rG,oO( I need to bind that to a hotkey )
Guus
SCAM can send you that on a coffee mug, I think.
Zash
Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter
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Guus
Pelican Brief flashbacks...
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Ge0rG
dwd: was the lack of a vote in your ATT mail by design or by accident?
pep.
In any case that was good feedback :)
dwd
Design. A veto seems like a last resort, I'd like to see what others say first.
dwd
But I am leaning toward a veto, as is probably obvious.
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lovetox
why is it voting already
lovetox
it was my interpretation that after submitting something to the inbox the author can gather inital feedback and maybe improve the XEP
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lovetox
ah but voting does not really change something
lovetox
the xep stays forever in inbox and can be improved
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Ge0rG
It's merely a vote on assigning a number.
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Ge0rG
dwd: I'd also love to see your vote on 412.
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Ge0rG
And somebody else would love to get all votes on DoX before the weekend.
dwd
lovetox, In general, if something's veto'd, people ditch it.
dwd
lovetox, Also, I have an enormous pet hate of people working on documents in Inbox, excepting addressing veto feedback. There's a huge IPR hole they then fall into.
dwd
lovetox, Unless/until we accept a XEP and give it a number, it's really not clear whose copyright and license it is.
lovetox
so the right approach would be to submit the xep to the list before submitting it to inbox
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jonas’
Ge0rG, didn’t DoX expire this week?
jonas’
Ge0rG, yeah, DoX expired and with the last meeting’s votes it was accepted
jonas’
I’ll publish it, but not on April 1st
jonas’
I find it too misleading
jonas’
it is intended to be taken serious, but the nature of it makes it look like it might not be. I don’t want any confusion around that.
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moparisthebest
why can't it be both? :)
Zash
March 31 at 23:59
moparisthebest
in my opinion, it has valid use-cases, but is also silly enough to be published on April 1st :)
jonas’
moparisthebest, simply to avoid confusion
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moparisthebest
what's wrong with a little confusion
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Ge0rG
Yay!
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Ge0rG
jonas’: please do on 1st
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jonas’
moparisthebest, people already complain enough about confusing things with our standards
moparisthebest
but what's confusing, it's a simple spec that has implementations, anyone that doesn't want it will ignore it, anyone that does might go "haha this was published on April 1st" but, what's the downside
jonas’
it’s "this was published on April 1st, is this serious, do people implement it, what?"
moparisthebest
that's fine, it's easily resolved, if it was published on April 2nd you still don't know if people implement it
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Seve
I don't like humorous XEPs, but in his defense this isn't
moparisthebest
it's a little humorous, we don't have a Type for that
Ge0rG, since you in particular seemed to consider using this for real, did you see https://github.com/wiktor-k/prosody-dox
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Seve
> Type: Author thinks it's hilarious but everyone else disagrees Standards Track
Accurate
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moparisthebest
So 1 council member (and author) are for April 1st release, editor and council member (same person) is against, can we get more council members to weigh in? dwd Link Mauve Kev ?
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dwd
Anything that suggests people shouldn't implement sounds good to me. ;-)
Ge0rG
dwd: so you are for April 1st as well... 😁
moparisthebest
Yay that's another council member for!
Ge0rG
Haven't seen kev yet
dwd
I don't think, strictly, that the date of publication is something I can actually vote for or against, however.
Ge0rG
dwd: you can kindly ask the editor to do his duty on a given date.
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dwd
FWIW, I've never been particularly in favour of the "Humorous" track. But then, I'm in favour of more subtle jokes.
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moparisthebest
Exactly
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moparisthebest
Like a real spec with multiple independent implementations that is a bit silly and happens to be released on April 1st ?
moparisthebest
That's just good marketing
Ge0rG
I think that after we missed to assign the number 404 to a XEP that actually deserves it, we can have DoX on April 1st... @jonas’