dwdSeve, Thanks for this. I've not looked when the WG meeting itself is, I thought I might listen in.
yvohas joined
Sevedwd, meeting happening now, I can't follow it but the room is this one: mls@jabber.ietf.org
SeveMore slides are being shared there
dwdAh - you'll want the audio etc too.
dwdBut I don't think I really understand more than one word in five when they start the serious cryptography.
Seve:D
SeveYeah, there's audio stream available as well, but I'm at work anyway, can't follow anything (implying I would understand something, which is most probably not :D)
pep.PFF you're away from the list one day and there's already a full thread on markup formats
yvohas left
ThibGhas left
ThibGhas joined
ZashWas a week ago a good time to poke someone about https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-acme-email-tls ?
rtq3has joined
debaclehas joined
rtq3has left
rtq3has joined
Ge0rGhas left
larmahas left
Ge0rGhas joined
Ge0rGhas left
Ge0rGhas joined
Ge0rGhas left
Ge0rGhas joined
Ge0rGhas left
Ge0rGhas joined
Ge0rGhas left
Ge0rGhas joined
Ge0rGhas left
Ge0rGhas joined
Ge0rGhas left
Ge0rGhas joined
Ge0rGhas left
Ge0rGhas joined
Ge0rGhas left
Ge0rGhas joined
rtq3has left
rtq3has joined
Ge0rGhas left
Ge0rGhas joined
Ge0rGhas left
Ge0rGhas joined
Ge0rGhas left
Ge0rGhas joined
Ge0rGhas left
Ge0rGhas joined
Ge0rGhas left
Ge0rGhas joined
Ge0rGhas left
Ge0rGhas joined
Ge0rGhas left
Ge0rGhas joined
Ge0rGhas left
Ge0rGhas joined
davidhas left
flowdwd, appreciate your email response to evgeny
Guusas did I.
flowAlthough I have to admit that evgeny's mail made me chuckle.
flowBut yeah, neither carlo's email nor the response added much or even any value to the discussion
GuusLet's not single out one person - there's a lot of this going on, sadly.
GuusIt causes me (and thus very likely others) to not participate in discussions like this.
Guuswhich hurts standards development (not that I'm bringing to much to the table, but if more people are discouraged, this becomes an issue real fast).
GuusI literally discarded a draft email to that thread, for "I don't want to waste time arguing right now" reasons.
Ge0rGthe whole thread was tl;dr. Am I missing out on drama?
igoosehas left
igoosehas joined
flowFeels more like a holy war than drama
Guusmuch of the same: "everything is broken and you're not dipshits for even considering other options than my solution."
Guusit's... discouraging.
flowI tend to believe that this is something that can not be settled in a discussion, but has to be settled by the ecosystem
Guusmuch of the same: "everything is broken and you're dipshits for even considering other options than my solution."
olihas joined
Guusflow I tend to agree. Sadly, implemenation in the ecosystem takes time, which fuels the 'why isn't this fixed yet' thought.
dwdThere's a conversation about behaviour in technical debate in the IETF list at the moment, but I'll say here what I'm currently writing there:
dwdYes, people should not be assholes - because it's vastly less efficient as well as the more obvious social things.
Guus"... and you're all dipshits for not taking my word for that!" <-- right? 😉
MattJTo be fair, maybe I missed something, but apart from two emails I found the discussions quite constructive so far
dwdBut also, it's worth picking out the technical argument from things and treating it independently from the aggression.
GuusMattJ I'm not ruling out I've started to be oversensitive at a certain pressure point.
dwdMattJ, I could cheerfully point out several emails in there that I felt added very little, if anything, to the technical debate.
dwdMattJ, And, in addition, had a distinctly aggressive air.
Seve"Please, everyone, ensure your messages are like an efficient light bulb -
optimise for light, not heat." very spot on :D I like it very much (and it works with the jabber icon)
flowMattJ, possibly. I also found the thread to be civilized for large parts. The "holy war" remark was not meant towards that specific thread, but the situation regarding rich(?) text in XMPP as whole.
ZashCan we un-deprecate 71?
neshtaxmpphas left
neshtaxmpphas joined
MattJWe can do anything, if you can convince the council
kokonoehas left
neshtaxmpphas left
neshtaxmpphas joined
kokonoehas joined
GuusIt was deprecated solely because of the security implications, right? Specifically: that it's very complex to have an implementation that is secure.
GuusEven though the spec itself does not have obvious security issues.
ZashAnd the security problems are in the Web, not the spec. "Not markdown" has the same problems.
MattJAlso the same web clients that had security flaws in their XHTML-IM often also had security flaws elsewhere (like not escaping nicknames)
MattJnothing to do with XHTML-IM
ZashIn fact, you can get the same problems without rich text support
MattJBut not using XHTML-IM invites people to just dump it into the DOM✎
MattJBut using XHTML-IM invites people to just dump it into the DOM ✏
MattJwaqas wrote a safe sanitizer for it, fwiw, and it's not complex
ZashPeople will just dump "not markdown" through a markdown lib into HTML and dump that into the DOM
dwdWell, the feeling in Council wasm't that XHTML-IM was the sole source of security issues, it was that it was very hard to avoid security issues.
MattJ(it's linked from the modernxmpp docs)
dwdAnd, in addition, that many uses of XHTML-IM went beyond the subset it mandates anyway.
GuusI'm biased on this. Good thing I'm not on council 🙂
alacerhas joined
Guusnot biased - but I'm undecided.
MattJThe opposite of biased? :)
GuusI can't make up my mind.
MattJI agree it's not a simple issue
GuusAnd if you're making fun of my English, I move that we start using Dutch as the primary language in here. Where I have the same problem, but at least you won't notice then. 😉
MattJHowever I tend to agree with Andrew Nenakhov that we shouldn't artificially limit what can be done (e.g. about text in hyperlinks)
Guusneeds moar coffee.
MattJOtherwise people will just make up their own stuff which will probably be worse in the long run
alacerhas left
alacerhas joined
Guusagreed.
dwdI'm also a big fan of "I've implemented this and it works".
MattJRight
debaclehas left
dwdNot saying we should just adopt those ideas wholesale and verbatim, but it does strongly suggest there's some solid ideas to get from the work.
MattJAlso the argument that OOB exists and works isn't accurate, OOB is a hack implemented by Conversations and adopted by others
MattJI'm not against OOB (in fact I like it), but Conversations has broken it (<desc> can't be used, for example)
dwdAlso it's implemented by others is wildly varying ways - I've been doing a lot with it recently.
dwdGajim, for example, requires the URL in the <body/> to triger rendering the OOB.
MattJand there are two reasons, one of which is that Daniel didn't want to have to change the DB schema :)
ZashAnd before that it was just the URL by itself in <body>
MattJThe other is that it's a sensible fallback, and ensures that a user of a fallback client client doesn't lose any info
pep."I'm also a big fan of "I've implemented this and it works".", Poezio and gajim have implemented xhtml-im and it works :P
MattJ:)
jonas’10:39:10 dwd> I'm also a big fan of "I've implemented this and it works".
jonas’I’m not
jonas’especially not with influential implementations.
jonas’because it’s typically already deployed in the wild at that point and then everyone *has* to follow suit
jonas’(Styling intended)
pep.Yeah, I'm also half-half on that, mostly because of what jonas’ says
dwdHence the follow-up statement.
pep.I need to reply to that thread anyway.. noticed a few funny statements (if only a few)
Andrew Nenakhovhas left
Andrew Nenakhovhas joined
lovetoxyou dont understand the reasons behind the oob thing
lovetoxalso its weird dwd that you want to control what the client of another person shows or does
lovetoxits really nothing you should think about
alacerhas left
lovetoxbtw you dont have to use oob at all with Gajim, if the user chooses he can let Gajim show and load *all* links, it doesnt matter if they have a oob element or not
olihas left
Ge0rGThe Web is so great, we can't do XMPP without it.
olihas joined
404.city Supporthas joined
404.cityhas joined
rtq3has left
dwdlovetox, I'd just like to send an image to someone. It's not about controlling if the user sees it inline or not, it's about expressing intent.
dwdlovetox, Compare and contrast with RFC 2183, which allows people to indicate if the MIME part is intended to be an attached file or an inline portion of the message.
olihas left
olihas joined
debaclehas joined
olihas left
olihas joined
andyhas left
olihas left
olihas joined
lovetoxyes your intent is declared when you use oob
lovetoxyou dont need to follow body==oob url logic
olihas left
olihas joined
peterhas joined
rtq3has joined
lovetoxif a user uses http upload to share a picture, he communicates a URL, i as a client add a oob tag to tell another client, that the intent is a shared image that the user specifically uploaded, so not a copy paste of URL from somewhere
lovetoxbecause we also need a fallback for clients that dont support oob, this results in oob url == body
lovetoxfor this particular case of sharing something
alacerhas joined
lovetoxthat does not mean that oob cant be used in other ways , like adding a description
lovetoxif your client has support for adding a description to uploaded content, tell me and i will make it look good in Gajim
lovetoxi didnt saw something like that though until now
MattJlovetox, the problem is that if you put anything in <desc> it is ignored by Conversations, and any other client
MattJso the sensible thing to do would be to put the <desc> content also in <body> for fallback clients
lovetoxyeah and? open a issue on their tracker for it
MattJBut then Conversations will stop displaying it inline
MattJDaniel knows about it and doesn't want to fix it, because it would require a schema change in the Conversations database
lovetoxyeah and?! Because one client does not support something now we stop using it?
MattJI mean, he didn't say he would never fix it, but it's not priority, and it means that <desc> can't be used in practice today
lovetoxi dont get this kind of argument
MattJTell that to all the users of Conversations :)
dwdlovetox, But opening an issue on the tracker would surely be trying to control how a client presents some data?
MattJ"When your client sends me a message, it doesn't display"
Zash"It doesn't work in IE"
lovetoxthen he doesnt see the description
lovetoxwhats the difference to now where you cant add one
lovetoxbecause it doesnt show it inline anymore
lovetoxso you want to control how the image is displayed
ZashIf you wanna make everything worse, send the description in a separate message.
lorddavidiiihas joined
olihas left
olihas joined
olihas left
olihas joined
olihas left
olihas joined
olihas left
olihas joined
blablahas left
olihas left
olihas joined
rtq3has left
olihas left
olihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
andyhas joined
Ge0rGLink Mauve: didn't you intend to post to standards@ about MUC Avatars and how to move forward?
rtq3has joined
ZashDidn't I intent to just load mod_pep onto a MUC and call it a day?
olihas left
Steve Killehas left
Kevhas left
Steve Killehas joined
Kevhas joined
olihas joined
olihas left
olihas joined
rtq3has left
Seve>yeah and?! Because one client does not support something now we stop using it?
Out of context somebody would think we should rename XMPP to Conversations :)
Ge0rG"ejabberd - a Conversations™ compatible server"
Ge0rGIt would be funny if it wasn't about the abuse of trademarks and the sad state of XMPP.
wurstsalathas left
Andrew NenakhovWell since xmpp stands for messaging and *Presence* protocol, I could hardly call Conversations an XMPP client at all 😂 XMP, or XMPp at best
davidhas joined
pep."MattJ> But then Conversations will stop displaying it inline" maybe someday we'll finally rename to The Conversations Protocol.
jonas’conversations does funny things when you simply slap an OOB tag on all the links
pep.Well that's a conversations problem..
wurstsalathas joined
Andrew NenakhovBtw, is it just me unable to find a setting, or there are no roster groups at all?
ZashWhat do you mean?
flowAndrew Nenakhov, possibly there are not roster groups at all
ZashDefine "roster groups"
SeveThey are, but look like tags, I think
flowyou don't have to add every aspect of the protocol to your (G)UI, and some argue that they do more harm than good
Andrew NenakhovSeve, I can't find even tags now
olihas left
dwdRoster groups in COnversations are indeed displayed as tags. It's a reasonable rendering of what they are, in fairness.
404.cityhas left
404.city Supporthas left
Andrew NenakhovI agree with that semantically they are tags. I just somehow don't see them at all now.
Andrew Nenakhovhas left
Andrew Nenakhovhas joined
ZashThere's a setting somewhere that make them show up in the "start conversation" view
Ge0rGHow does Xabber handle roster groups? And how are they named in the UI?
Andrew NenakhovLike it should. ☝️
Ge0rG...
blablahas joined
jubalhhas joined
jonas’Andrew Nenakhov, oh, so you’re doing tags, too? :)
Andrew NenakhovOf course, no )
jonas’hm, I find tags much more useful
Andrew NenakhovMy co-workers don't. We are using Xabber for Web as a daily driver desktop chat app. Briefly experimented with tag based groups, quicky dropped cause everyone hated it
peterhas left
Andrew NenakhovSo like, 'redsolution' shared roster groups to list all active colleagues and their presences, 'developers' 'managers'
Ge0rG+1 for tags. Just to annoy Андрей.
lumihas joined
yvohas joined
Marandahas left
Marandahas joined
Andrew NenakhovLol
valohas left
Ge0rGthe concept of a contact list is deprecated anyway. all you need is a search/address bar where you can type things.
Andrew NenakhovTell that to my managers, lol
Ge0rGaren't you the manager? I thought so...
Andrew NenakhovThen tell me how far they've sent you
Ge0rGAndrew Nenakhov: or is everybody managed by FSB now?
Andrew Nenakhovjonas’, the main use pattern of using groups was to scroll over them to see who's online, sorted by relevant groups.
jonas’Andrew Nenakhov, I see
jonas’I became headaches when thinking about how to deal with the situation where a user attempts to do conflicting changes to the same contact in multiple groups
jonas’and I prefer the tags UI anyways
Andrew Nenakhovjonas’, like, what conflicting changes?
jonas’Andrew Nenakhov, or to put it another way: I found it to be confusing behaviour when changing a contacts name in one group affects the contact in another group
Andrew Nenakhovjonas’, I don't find it confusing. Maybe because I have good interfaces.
jonas’maybe
Ge0rGif it's a tree, it's confusing.
Ge0rGbecause you imply that one contact is multiple leafs.
Ge0rGand if it's not a tree but a DAG, it's even more confusing because nobody will understand that.
lovetoxhm tags sound like a good idea
jonas’lovetox, I think they are! https://sotecware.net/files/mlxc/02-tagsinput.webm
Ge0rGlovetox: please fix the dialogs where a JID is split into locapart and domain first
jonas’I have another clip somewhere where I showcase the UI to manage tags on a contact, but I can’t seem to find it
Andrew Nenakhovjonas’, anyway, I fully understand the reasoning behind tags approach. It just didn't stick with my personnel do we dropped that option for now
andyhas left
andyhas joined
Andrew Nenakhovhas left
alacerhas left
Andrew Nenakhovhas joined
Alexhas left
jubalhhas left
andyhas left
jubalhhas joined
olihas joined
andyhas joined
G0s+has joined
lovetoxGe0rG the account creation dialog is on my list
Nekithas left
Nekithas joined
Ge0rGlovetox: I recently encountered it in the Join MUC dialog
lovetoxbut it is a big thing, because it contains so many workflows
Ge0rGlovetox: also are you following https://docs.modernxmpp.org ?
lovetoxif you think about it, to have a really good account creation/adding GUI you need to support a shitload of things
rtq3has joined
lovetoxyou need Forms support with nice looking GUI, you need catpcha support with Forms, you need BOSH, http proxys, socks5 proxies, a lib that supports IBR really good with giving meaningful errors if something does not work
Lancehas joined
lovetoxand at last you need to handle the 7 different allowed methods that a server can offer you the IBR registration
Ge0rGlovetox: what's your point, again?
MattJlovetox, if there really are 7 (which I hope not), I'm pretty confident you can ignore some of those
lovetoxthat it sounds trivial to make a good add/creation dialog
lovetoxbut it entails many things to do it really good
MattJI can think of simple (no form), form, or out-of-band
ZashMattJ: Don't look at mod_register_redirect
MattJlovetox, would really appreciate anything you can bring to the modernxmpp docs
Ge0rGlovetox: I never claimed it's easy :D
lovetoxMattJ i referred to the table of death in the IBR xep
Ge0rGmy own client only implements half-a-method
MattJHa
mimi89999has left
MattJIt doesn't actually seem that bad
Ge0rGout-of-band registration _is_ bad.
MattJThe table is possibly a little excessive. For a client that supports forms, it's basically telling you to always use that if the server offers it
Ge0rGI mean it's working more or less on PCs, where it's not so hard to type a username and a password, but it really sucks on mobile
pep.Ge0rG, agreed
Ge0rG_especially_ if you need to solve some 64px klingon captcha on your 1080p 4" display.
Ge0rG(which reminds me of the misdesigned xmpp compliance badges with the tiny fonts)
ZashAnd guess how many clients actually support anything but username+password
pep.You're making me sad
Ge0rG3?
jonas’Ge0rG, by "number installed" instead of "number of software projects"? likely! :)
ZashThis is where it turns out those 3 are the libpurple ones.
Ge0rGsomebody write an android transverter from data forms to ui widges
Zash!
ZashPidgin supports dataforms
ZashOr, some sort of extended IBR at least
mimi89999has joined
GuusBoard: I'm getting a service person visiting my house somewhere today. He hasn't been here yet. Luck shall have it that he'll arrive just when the board meeting starts.
GuusI might be unresponsive.
MattJNoted, thanks!
Ge0rGI've heard that moparisthebest volunteers for the Editor role.
ZashYeah it's the form.
Andrew Nenakhovhas left
karoshihas left
kokonoehas left
karoshihas joined
kokonoehas joined
Andrew Nenakhovhas joined
Andrew Nenakhovhas left
Andrew Nenakhovhas joined
goffihas joined
GuusThat guy is pulling up now.
GuusImpeccable timing
GuusAfk
SeveMattJ, feels like it's just you and me
dwdYour friendly ex-officio COuncil Chair is here too.
nyco_o/
Ge0rGthat Council Chair could do their voting duty as well :D
dwdGe0rG, Yeah.
MattJHey
ralphmbangs gavel
ralphm0. Welcome + agenda
ralphmWho? What?
MattJMe
Seveis here!
ralphmSeve: I think you had something to say about the agenda?
SeveYes ralphm.
SeveI moved a bit the items that we have for discussion to give them some time as well. I was fearing that we would stick to juts one and don't discuss the rest.
Sevejust*
Dele Olajidehas left
Alexhas joined
delehas joined
ralphmOk.
SeveSome of them look like they need less time than others, so I thought this would be a good idea to have things done.
MattJSounds good
ralphm1. Minute taker
ralphmdwd?
dwdI will, sadly, be disappearing into a meeting shortly, sorry.
ralphm:-(
ralphmAnyone?
Lancehas left
GuusI'm back
ralphmHad network issues.
ralphmBack, too.
ralphm2. Server outage post-mortem
ralphmGuus' point
GuusWe've discussed this two weeks ago, iirc
ralphmRight, I wasn't sure if it needs to be on here still.
MattJWe did. Not sure we actually got anywhere though, or if there is anywhere left to go
SeveDon't recall any action
GuusI'd like to see if we want have improvements, and if so, discuss how we improve things.
Guusralphm volunteered to talk to intosi during practice about this.
Guus(unsure what practice)
ralphmIndeed I did, and haven't yet, so I will try today.
ralphmWe have rehearsals on Thursdays, me on drums, him on bass.
ralphm3. Automagically merge PRs from authors.
GuusLet's, as board, decide if we want things to improve somehow
andyhas left
Guusif not, we need no furhter action
Guusif so, we should facilitate furhter action.
ralphmMattJ?
Guusah, we're moving on.
ralphmGuus: I'll first have that chat.
ralphm(and put it as a todo in Trello)
dwdPresumably you'd want to merge only on Experimental?
MattJdwd, yes
MattJThis was prompted by a remark from zinid, and how he's frustrated by the round-trip times regarding publishing to (Experimental) specs where he is the author
MattJHe'd like to commit, and see it rendered
ralphmHow would you implement this? Just allow authors merge control and have them merge themselves?
MattJMy counter was that PRs are a typical workflow in just about any open-source project
Ge0rGIs that worth the trouble of implementing some kind of access control system?
MattJWell right now the Editors are the access control system
ralphmIf he just wants to have things rendered, local rendering works just fine for me?
MattJralphm, rendered for others to reference as well
Ge0rGYou can rather easily publish the rendered html
MattJGe0rG, not on xmpp.org, obviously
ralphmMattJ: do you have an idea on this would work?
ralphmhow
GuusIf we can automate more, I don't see harm in doing that. If the task of automating things takes more resources than doing things manually the next few years, I see no point in automating stuff.
Ge0rGMattJ: obviously. But replacing the editors with some kind of bot that can check the identity of a github user against the author field in the XEP is not trivial
MattJI'd like to hear Editor feedback on this idea - I know jonas has made a lot of progress with automation
Guusa second pair of eyes before we _publish_ things seems desirable, though.
GuusWhat's there for board to decide, here?
MattJI'm just relaying feedback from an author, that the times between submission and publication can be long, and trying to avoid the "but we're all volunteers" response
Guusif Editors choose to further automate things, yey for them.
ralphmI'd be ok for the Editors to form their opinion on this and change (or not change) their processes accordingly.
MattJGuus, Board oversees the submission process, so I think it's a relevant point to receive feedback on that process from the people using it
Guuswe should try and optimize things, sure. People could also volunteer to take up the role of Editor - something that was requested repeatedly.
ralphmI don't think it really affects our procedures.
GuusMattJ I don't see this as a process change though?
ralphmGuus: agreed, more Editors FTW
MattJGuus, not necessarily, no
MattJBut you did make the comment about "a second pair of eyes"
MattJAnyway, if we want to conclude that this is up to Editors, that's fine by me
GuusI'm not against automation at all. If Editors want this, and if we find someone to do the automation, by all means.
ralphmMattJ: I do think for now this is up to the Editors
MattJSounds good to me
yvohas left
ralphm4. High Profile XMPP Uses
ralphmI saw a bunch of things on Trello, what do we need to discuss?
SeveWe were brainstorming, to put it simple, I think.
SeveTrying to figure out what can we offer to these "High Profile XMPP Users"
GuusI'd like to see a plan developed that leads to someone reaching out to organisations.
Guuswe can discuss that plan. 🙂
Nekithas left
Nekithas joined
ralphmRight, in that case, let's put it at the top for next week.
ralphm5. Tigase & XMPP Logo
ralphmnyco: what's this?
nycothey wanna use the logo, asking for authorisation
GuusThis is explicitly about the XMPP logo, and not related to the Jabber trademark?
nycoyep, I could ask, to double check
dwdThe logo is, IIRC, public domain isn't it?
ralphmI *think* it is licensed Expat/MIT
GuusI was going to *think* the same.
Guusdo we have that written down somewhere? 🙂
MattJI was pretty sure so, but I can't find any reference right now
ralphmWe have had. From my recollection it falls under our IPR policy. Would be good if stpeter remembers.
ralphmI'll send an e-mail to ask
dwdIn any case, the copyright is owned by the XSF, so you can license it however you like, I think.
ralphmYes, but if we already have, it would be nice to know which one we used.
Guuslet's ask Peter, and make sure to re-instate a description on the website.
Guusfor future reference.
jubalhhas joined
Seve +1
GuusCan we preemptively tell Tigase that they can use it?
MattJSeems fine to me
ralphmYes
Guusseems like we need to figure out the 'how', not the 'if' they can use it.
nycoI'd say yes, I use it without asking... should I remove it?
Guusall board members will meet at the same time-of-day as today.
nycothat's clearer for my poor mind
rtq3has left
ralphmPlease, can somebody retroactively make minutes from this?
Guusit'll just not be 7 times 24 hours later, and for US-based people, the time-of-day changes, as compared to today.
rtq3has joined
GuusThe XSF Events calendar has the right agenda item for the board meeting - just follow that, and you're fine. 🙂
ralphmGuus: it is pinned to local time, right?
Guusyes. It is pinned to local (I think London) time, and explicitly not to UTC.
waqashas joined
nycoweird, in scifi movies, when a spaceship reaches a planet, no one ever asks about time and timezones, they just land
earth should do the same: one unique time for the whole planet, no timezone, just a "planetzone"
and yes, some countries would have their mornings at 0:00 and some would go party in the night at 07:00 😉
MattJUTC, yes
Ge0rGthe EU is trying that right now.
MattJ:)
peterhas joined
nyco(and the reference point would be Paris, of course...)
Guusnyco whenever a spaceship arrives at a planet, they can raise the relevant ruling party immediately. They're not even in the bathroom, ever, let alone asleep.
Ge0rGBut unfortunately, it's harder to change the local starting time of events than the offset of local time to the sun.
jubalhhas left
nycoin the future, the human does no pee anymore
Guusdiapers.
ZashViva das .Beat
ralphmTime in Star Trek is complicated.
Ge0rGralphm: s/in Star Trek//
ralphmI think in general they use a 24h clock, but DS9 is on a 26h day schedule (to align with Bajor)
ZashIt's all wibbly-wobbly
GuusInterstellar (the movie) is fun with time. Unsure if it's accurate, but it's fun.
Alexhas left
Ge0rGralphm: yes, they are using their cis-male-privileged Earth time everywhere.
larmahas joined
ralphm…
GuusI've started re-reruns of voyager - amazed to find that the borg don't play a role at all in the first few seasons. Totally forgot about that.
Ge0rG8472 is my favorite species.
NeustradamusAbout XEP-0308: Last Message Correction : https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0308.html
-> It is not specified about log, when we changed the last message, the log has 2 entries (not only 1), it is possible to add a solution?
Ge0rG(it also happens to be a TCP port that's not on the nmap top1000 list)
Ge0rGNeustradamus: what log?
Guusthe weak will perish.
Ge0rGbut TNG was peak Star Trek anyway. VOY had a horrible ending, and DS9 was merely space soap opera
NeustradamusGe0rG: Log in the client and saved by the server
Ge0rGNeustradamus: fix the client?
NeustradamusIt is not specified in the XEP no?
The problem is for server and client no?
NeustradamusIt is an example on this XMPP software server, but it is for other XMPP server softwares too.
Ge0rGThe prosody log display might need support for LMC
NeustradamusHolger (for ejabberd), Kev (for M-Link), Guus (for Openfire), MattJ (for Prosody), what do you think?
GuusI like Discovery too.
Nekithas left
Nekithas joined
waqashas left
MattJNeustradamus, I think... patches welcome
j.rhas joined
MattJI'm working on higher priority things right now
NeustradamusThe XEP must be patched for it for have a 1.0.1, we are ok?
lovetoxNeustradamus you want to replace a message when you correct it?
lovetoxthen you lose the information what was corrected
lovetoxso the client cant show you what the message was before it was corrected
lovetoxwhy do you think the server should do this? the client can fuse the messages after receiving it
NeustradamusTo have only the last message in log, not the old message and the new message, example the Test 1 -> Test 2 for minutes ago, there are 2 entries in log.
Ge0rGA log on the web is a different thing than a server archive.
Zash(Technically, that is the server archive, with some transform)
Ge0rGYes. But then you can instrument the Some Transform.
ZashYou can. Have fun!
Nekithas left
Nekithas joined
Ge0rGI'm working on higher priority things right now
Ge0rG,oO( I need to bind that to a hotkey )
GuusSCAM can send you that on a coffee mug, I think.
ZashYour ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter
lovetoxhas left
GuusPelican Brief flashbacks...
alacerhas joined
olihas left
olihas joined
Alexhas joined
Lancehas joined
Wojtekhas joined
rtq3has left
alacerhas left
alacerhas joined
alacerhas left
alacerhas joined
archas left
archas joined
lovetoxhas joined
sezuanhas left
olihas left
olihas joined
peterhas left
neshtaxmpphas left
rtq3has joined
olihas left
olihas joined
marc_has left
marc_has joined
jcbrandhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
Steve Killehas left
jubalhhas joined
igoosehas left
igoosehas joined
Steve Killehas joined
peterhas joined
alacerhas left
Ge0rGdwd: was the lack of a vote in your ATT mail by design or by accident?
pep.In any case that was good feedback :)
dwdDesign. A veto seems like a last resort, I'd like to see what others say first.
dwdBut I am leaning toward a veto, as is probably obvious.
jubalhhas left
lovetoxwhy is it voting already
lovetoxit was my interpretation that after submitting something to the inbox the author can gather inital feedback and maybe improve the XEP
ThibGhas left
ThibGhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
lovetoxah but voting does not really change something
lovetoxthe xep stays forever in inbox and can be improved
goffihas left
lskdjfhas joined
Ge0rGIt's merely a vote on assigning a number.
peterhas left
Ge0rGdwd: I'd also love to see your vote on 412.
Steve Killehas left
Ge0rGAnd somebody else would love to get all votes on DoX before the weekend.
dwdlovetox, In general, if something's veto'd, people ditch it.
dwdlovetox, Also, I have an enormous pet hate of people working on documents in Inbox, excepting addressing veto feedback. There's a huge IPR hole they then fall into.
dwdlovetox, Unless/until we accept a XEP and give it a number, it's really not clear whose copyright and license it is.
lovetoxso the right approach would be to submit the xep to the list before submitting it to inbox
peterhas joined
Steve Killehas joined
lumihas left
olihas left
olihas joined
jonas’Ge0rG, didn’t DoX expire this week?
jonas’Ge0rG, yeah, DoX expired and with the last meeting’s votes it was accepted
jonas’I’ll publish it, but not on April 1st
jonas’I find it too misleading
jonas’it is intended to be taken serious, but the nature of it makes it look like it might not be. I don’t want any confusion around that.
Half-ShotXhas joined
moparisthebestwhy can't it be both? :)
ZashMarch 31 at 23:59
moparisthebestin my opinion, it has valid use-cases, but is also silly enough to be published on April 1st :)
jonas’moparisthebest, simply to avoid confusion
peterhas left
delehas left
moparisthebestwhat's wrong with a little confusion
Dele Olajidehas joined
Steve Killehas left
Ge0rGYay!
kokonoehas left
Ge0rGjonas’: please do on 1st
kokonoehas joined
Dele Olajidehas left
Dele Olajidehas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
Steve Killehas joined
Half-ShotXhas joined
Wojtekhas left
Wojtekhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
jonas’moparisthebest, people already complain enough about confusing things with our standards
moparisthebestbut what's confusing, it's a simple spec that has implementations, anyone that doesn't want it will ignore it, anyone that does might go "haha this was published on April 1st" but, what's the downside
jonas’it’s "this was published on April 1st, is this serious, do people implement it, what?"
moparisthebestthat's fine, it's easily resolved, if it was published on April 2nd you still don't know if people implement it
Half-ShotXhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
SeveI don't like humorous XEPs, but in his defense this isn't
moparisthebestit's a little humorous, we don't have a Type for that
moparisthebestGe0rG, since you in particular seemed to consider using this for real, did you see https://github.com/wiktor-k/prosody-dox
Alexhas left
Seve> Type: Author thinks it's hilarious but everyone else disagrees Standards Track
Accurate
Alexhas joined
karoshihas left
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
valohas left
rtq3has left
Half-ShotXhas left
lumihas joined
valohas joined
Lancehas left
Lancehas joined
Half-ShotXhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
archas left
archas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
typikolhas joined
APachhas left
rtq3has joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
Half-ShotXhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
Lancehas left
typikolhas left
mimi89999has left
j.rhas left
j.rhas joined
mimi89999has joined
Syndacehas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
yvohas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
peterhas joined
APachhas joined
peterhas left
Syndacehas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
APachhas left
archas left
archas joined
APachhas joined
Half-ShotXhas joined
debaclehas left
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
Dele Olajidehas left
Dele Olajidehas joined
Dele Olajidehas left
Half-ShotXhas left
olihas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
Nekithas left
goffihas joined
Half-ShotXhas joined
G0s+has left
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
Nekithas joined
kokonoehas left
kokonoehas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
goffihas left
davidhas joined
Half-ShotXhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
yvohas left
larmahas left
lskdjfhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
archas left
archas joined
larmahas joined
lskdjfhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
zakhas left
olihas joined
Nekithas left
archas left
archas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
davidhas left
davidhas joined
lskdjfhas left
G0s+has joined
larmahas left
debaclehas joined
Half-ShotXhas joined
404.city Supporthas joined
404.cityhas joined
404.city Supporthas left
404.cityhas left
Half-ShotXhas left
blablahas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
moparisthebestSo 1 council member (and author) are for April 1st release, editor and council member (same person) is against, can we get more council members to weigh in? dwd Link Mauve Kev ?
Half-ShotXhas left
karoshihas joined
wurstsalathas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
Half-ShotXhas left
moparisthebesthas left
moparisthebesthas joined
Wojtekhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
mikaelahas left
dwdAnything that suggests people shouldn't implement sounds good to me. ;-)
Ge0rGdwd: so you are for April 1st as well... 😁
moparisthebestYay that's another council member for!
Ge0rGHaven't seen kev yet
dwdI don't think, strictly, that the date of publication is something I can actually vote for or against, however.
Ge0rGdwd: you can kindly ask the editor to do his duty on a given date.
UsLhas left
UsLhas joined
olihas left
alacerhas joined
dwdFWIW, I've never been particularly in favour of the "Humorous" track. But then, I'm in favour of more subtle jokes.
Half-ShotXhas left
Half-ShotXhas joined
moparisthebestExactly
Half-ShotXhas left
lnjhas left
moparisthebestLike a real spec with multiple independent implementations that is a bit silly and happens to be released on April 1st ?
moparisthebestThat's just good marketing
Ge0rGI think that after we missed to assign the number 404 to a XEP that actually deserves it, we can have DoX on April 1st... @jonas’