XSF Discussion - 2019-03-29

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  100. jonas’ Me too, actually
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  140. Ge0rG jonas’: so you are in on the 04/01 cabal? 😁
  141. jonas’ not necessarily
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  150. jcbrand Seve You can count me as another person who doesn't find humorous XEPs particularly funny.
  151. Seve Good to know I'm not alone, jcbrand :)
  152. jonas’ moparisthebest, another, less important, aspect is that April 1st is a monday, and I don’t have lots of resources for doing editor work on mondays
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  155. Ge0rG How much more than pressing a button is it? Would it be hard to stimulate a Monday from a different time zone? That should give you half a day of wiggle room in each direction.
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  157. jonas’ Ge0rG, assigning a number, checking that it builds, checking that the metadata is ok for publication, tagging, archiving, pushing, waiting two hours to send the email (and not forgetting about that)
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  159. jonas’ much of this is automated, but to apply the appropriate amount of care, I need to allocate a bit of time for that
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  186. Kev DoX: If it's meant to be implemented: Standards Track and not April 1st. If it's not meant to be implemented, Humorous and April 1st. Although whether it's actually amusing or not is an open question.
  187. MattJ If it's standards track who cares if April 1st?
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  195. Guus I agree with Kev - Anything published on April 1st runs the risk of being treated as humorous. Many people won't notice the track that's published on.
  196. Ge0rG Guus: I don't see this being a problem with that specific proposal.
  197. Guus If a XEP is not intended to be dismissed off-hand as humorous, we shouldn't publish it on April first.
  198. Ge0rG I don't see a problem with publishing serious proposals on April 1st, and I don't think people will dismiss something they actually need based on the publication date.
  199. Guus It will introduce confusion with at least some people, which we can easily avoid.
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  201. Ge0rG And especially with DoX, which is of the "ha-ha, only serious" kind <http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/H/ha-ha-only-serious.html>
  202. Guus that's utterly confusing to anyone that's not on top of things.
  203. jonas’ I’d maybe not say "utterly", but yeah. Especially with this type of borderline proposal, I think we should commit to it being either the one (humorous) or the other (standards track).
  204. jcbrand There's nothing wrong with publishing a serious proposal on April 1st, but that's not a reason to actively push for it to be published on April 1st.
  205. Seve >If it's standards track who cares if April 1st? I agree, not all the world celebrates 1st of April, just saying.
  206. Seve I don't check when a XEP was published, honestly.
  207. Seve I care about the content.
  208. jonas’ Seve, me neither, but some may, and especially on the day of publication.
  209. Seve I'm not pushing to any of the sides, just mentioning that
  210. Guus Many people won't be affected, but some will. We should err on the side of caution. Especially since it'd be effortless to do so.
  211. Ge0rG you folks are way too serious.
  212. Guus Ge0rG I like meta-jokes as much as the next guy, probably more. But let's not do that in a standards organisation.
  213. Kev If it was an obviously serious proposal, April 1st would make no difference.
  214. Kev But this is a XEP that at first glance I assumed was meant to be a joke.
  215. Ge0rG Guus: ..in a standards organization that has an explicit document class for "funny" things?
  216. Guus Ge0rG we can go back and forth over this all day, but I don't think we're going to agree. 🙂
  217. Ge0rG this is kind of those cheap 80ies tv shows where there are two huge neon signs above the stage with "Applause!" and "Laughter!"
  218. Ge0rG Kev: the XSF process doesn't allow for a proposal to be _both_ standards track and humorous.
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  220. Ge0rG What about if we change our process to allow for that? It would probably take a year or so, and then we can publish this XEP on April 1st 2020.
  221. Seve Come on :)
  222. Ge0rG Kev: speaking of process, is there a chance to get a quick vote from you on XEP-0412?
  223. Guus Ge0rG Comedytrain has open podium on Tuesdays, in Toomler, Amsterday. 😉
  224. Kev Ge0rG: Probably not while I'm off ill.
  225. Kev If I've not done it Monday, do feel free to chase.
  226. Ge0rG Kev: alright, thanks. Get well soon :)
  227. Kev Thanks.
  228. Ge0rG (this is not meant egoistically at all)
  229. Guus It didn't, until you mentioned that. 🙂
  230. Guus As someone with no skin in the game: get well soon, Kev.
  231. Kev Ta. It's only a cold, but it turns out they can be plenty annoying enough.
  232. Ge0rG It was well-intentioned, but then I had a feeling that it sounds like an empty phrase, and then I realized that it's even worse if taken in the context of my inquiry.
  233. Ge0rG I suppose that whatever I'm saying now is only going to make it worse.
  234. Guus yup.
  235. dwd Ge0rG, Keep digging, it's fun watching.
  236. Ge0rG So let's get back to DoX.
  237. Ge0rG dwd: you owe me a vote as well :P
  238. Ge0rG started to read ATT three times already. But the bus rides are too short and too bumpy to get through a complex cryptographic protocol.
  239. dwd Ge0rG, I'm still debating whether to through this back to another Last Call. We've had so few comments, I'm not sure it'll fix anything, though.
  240. dwd Ge0rG, That is more or less my concern with ATT. It's a (relatively) novel cryptographic design that the XSF is probably not the best place for.
  241. Ge0rG dwd: there is always CS-2020 for comments.
  242. dwd Ge0rG, That's a fair point.
  243. Guus dwd, I'm missing context, but it feels wrong to have both a defined (although minimum) period for 'last call', but also throw things back to last call for not having enough feedback.
  244. Ge0rG indeed, what Guus said. 0412 has been in Last Call for over a month.
  245. dwd Guus, Yes, although Council has done exactly that. But in this instance, we have had a change in author, and that author has added their own changes.
  246. Ge0rG dwd: as I said before, I'd rather undo my changes than go through another month of Last Call Feedback Not Happening.
  247. Ge0rG dwd: so either Council is agreeing with my (rather minor) changes, or not. In the latter case, I'll just revert the commits and get that thing out ASAP, and push them into CS-2020
  248. dwd Ge0rG, Sure. And equally, I'm not sure I want to veto the spec from Draft anyway. I just need to think about it a bit before making a decision.
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  252. Ge0rG dwd: and after all, Draft isn't Final. So it boils down to us (the Council) not closing any roads for us.
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  254. Guus If the change is considerable, that might warrant a Last Call. If this is about the Compliance Suites, I 'd much prefer to finally either reject or publish things. Sam has a point - it's almost April - this is getting silly.
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  259. Guus especially if we have another xep coming up next year.
  260. Ge0rG April 1st would be a good day to publish the Compliance Suite.
  261. Guus Thank you for not leaving that one unused, Ge0rG 😃
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  263. dwd Guus, The reason why it's taking so long is not, in fairness, COuncil taking time over things, but the utter lack of discussion in the community.
  264. Ge0rG I might fat-finger it a bit and change the year to 1999, to commemorate the anniversary.
  265. Guus dwd I thkn that Council should decide to either use 'lack of discussion' as grounds to not advance the XEP, or to take it as a silent agreement.
  266. Guus Re-iterating what we've done a couple of times, expecting a different outcome, is not productive.
  267. Ge0rG Guus: if we take lack of discussion as grounds not to advance, then the XSF will stall altogether.
  268. dwd Guus, Or - and where I'm leaning, actually - just push this one through and accept it stinks a bit, and hope to get a decent discussion for CS-2020.
  269. Ge0rG dwd: may I remind you that we had the same argument about CS-2018?
  270. dwd Ge0rG, Yes. The community's input thus far for two years is that they just want a Compliance Suite, but don't care what's in it.
  271. Syndace Regarding ATT, I think the upcoming sprint in Berlin will yield a lot of offline discussion about it. So on Sunday/Monday a lot of OMEMO people will have talked about it. The author and various client-devs are involved.
  272. Guus I suspect that part of the reason for a lack of discussion is that there's a feeling that it's not going anywhere, anyways. Let's break that cycle, but getting something out the door.
  273. Ge0rG Syndace: how many security people will be there?
  274. Guus I suspect that part of the reason for a lack of discussion is that there's a feeling that it's not going anywhere, anyways. Let's break that cycle, by getting something out the door.
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  276. Ge0rG dwd: maybe the community just trusts into the elected Council to do the right thing?
  277. dwd Ge0rG, The elected Council's Thing is not writing XEPs, though.
  278. Kev > The community's input thus far for two years is that they just want a Compliance Suite, but don't care what's in it. I'm not sure that's true.
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  280. Kev There are a small number of loud voices saying that.
  281. Syndace Ge0rG: Not sure if any ^^
  282. Kev I'm not sure that's the same as being the Will of the People.
  283. dwd Kev, Oh, indeed - the majority of the community has been entirely silent on the issue.
  284. Ge0rG dwd: in case of Compliance Suites, it might actually be a good idea to have those maintained by a Council member.
  285. Kev (Possibly because it's the opposite of what I think, which is that the date is unimportant (and shouldn't be there at all) and that if we can't do a decent job of a CS, we should delay until we can)
  286. Ge0rG Kev: if the people remain silent, we have no way to determine their will
  287. Ge0rG Kev: we are delaying the decesnt job of a CS at least since 2016 now.
  288. Guus Kev: do you propose to replace the CS XEPS with one, that we periodically update?
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  290. Ge0rG I think that with the presence of XMPP clients that stopped implementing new XEPs a decade ago, it is useful to be able to assign a year to a given implementation.
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  292. Andrew Nenakhov I might be late to a party, but it's absolutely necessary for serious things to be published on April 1st. If anything it makes plausible jokes better.
  293. Ge0rG And we have discussed before that CS does not quite fit into our XEP process, but that for lack of a better process we are sticking to doing it as we are now.
  294. Ge0rG If you want to change the process, please do so for CS-2020
  295. Ge0rG (see, sometimes, you can't tell truth from sarcasm)
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  298. Guus Nothing is going to change by pushing this one back to LC, I think. So I'd suggest to either reject or accept the advancement.
  299. Guus I think Council's mandate covers that neatly - the amount of community feedback can be used as an argument to reject, but I don't think Council _requires_ community feedback to vote on a XEP.
  300. dwd Guus, It doesn't mandate this, but neither do the rules preclude this as a reason to veto.
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  302. Guus you got me confused.
  303. Ge0rG Guus: I think Dave wants to say that the council may refuse a proposed XEP based on lack of community feedback
  304. dwd Guus, Oh. Yes, unsurprising, I've rephrased what you were saying, more or less.
  305. Guus Yeah, that's what I ment. 🙂
  306. Ge0rG So everybody is in agreement now? Great!
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  309. Guus Don't know about you, but I'm frantically refreshing my mailbox.
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  314. Ge0rG I'm also frantically refreshing my mailbox, but on my current 64kbit/s connection a login+fetch cycle is counted in minutes.
  315. Ge0rG > Reading new messages (402342 bytes)...
  316. jonas’ why do you have to re-login to refresh?
  317. Guus that takes away from the franticallity 😞
  318. Ge0rG jonas’: for $reasons. One of them being that IMAP support in mutt plainly sucks
  319. jonas’ ah, mutt
  320. Ge0rG another one being that I fetch my mail from the ISP via POP3, just to sync my inbox via IMAP to my own server
  321. Ge0rG did I mention yet that mswatch is an ugly hack?
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  329. Guus And you've not yet deviced a method to be notified of new mail via XMPP? tsss.
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  355. Ge0rG Guus: being notified? Just deliver them over XMPP!
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  359. Guus Ge0rG yes, get on with it!
  360. Ge0rG Then we can have COIOX!
  361. Ge0rG jonas’: do you have any plans for this weekend?
  362. jonas’ Ge0rG, yes.
  363. jonas’ why?
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  365. Guus IT'S A TRAP!
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  367. Ge0rG jonas’: you are my no. 1 go-to bot expert. And this looks like we need a bot to synchronize maildir over XMPP
  368. Guus told ya
  369. Seve I'm glad you are not my boss, Ge0rG
  370. Seve 😂
  371. Ge0rG Seve: my current developer team has a size of 0.
  372. Guus http://www.quickmeme.com/img/67/67851be4d08f9a4ffb3f0a48ef6e136eacae8e0fc0d0f7dfb9a53c36f388b097.jpg
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  473. jonas’ jails Guus with Article 13
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  480. moparisthebest jonas’, don't forget the owners of quickmeme.com for allowing an upload to bypass the infallible filters
  481. jonas’ ah, yes
  482. jonas’ FWIW, I decided that April 1st is not the right date to publish DoX, and since I was nagged about eax-cir in the other room, I’ll just go ahead and process both now
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  486. jonas’ on a different matter, folks interested in future xep archeology might like that I’m starting to tag XEPs
  487. jonas’ on a different matter, folks interested in future xep archeology might like that I’m starting to tag XEP commits
  488. jonas’ https://github.com/xsf/xeps/releases
  489. Zash \o/
  490. Zash jonas’: That is awesome!
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  527. edhelas one question for https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0367.html if you are doing the "slack-like reaction" implementation, how can you count emojis for MUC, regarding that uniqueness cannot really be based on the from jid
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  610. Ge0rG edhelas: based on the full JID in a MUC?
  611. Ge0rG edhelas: or are you speaking of nickname changes?
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  632. dwd looks about. Still in the EU!
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  635. pep. jonas’, was that message about JET (0396) prompted by a discussion somewhere?
  636. pep. Because some of us at the berlin sprint were actually talking about that earlier.
  637. pep. I guess people will grump about offline / MUC. Even if there is no actual limitation for jingle regarding this
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  641. Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0385.html
  642. dwd I think, vaguely, that Jingle FT has a better security model than HTTP upload, though it somewhat depends on the details of the threat model you're working to. I'd love to get some of the crypto-enthusiasts to document their threat model, mind.
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  650. pep. Ok I just sent a follow-up on the ATT thread, I'd love to get feedback on that
  651. pep. https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2019-March/035993.html
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