XSF Discussion - 2019-04-02

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  236. pep. Can I have a quick show of hands for people who plan to go to CCCamp this year?
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  245. pep. (ftr, not https://www.cccamp.org/)
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  250. Guus As that's in the US, you might want to re-ask when the locals have had time to wake up. 😉
  251. pep. What is in the us?
  252. jonas’ confusion!:)
  253. Guus oh, sorry
  254. pep. CCCamp is in Germany
  255. Guus _not_ the link that you provided.
  256. Guus If I see a link, I click on it.
  257. jonas’ Guus, that’s a vulnerability
  258. Guus I know.
  259. Guus I'm vulnerable.
  260. pep. https://www.flickr.com/groups/cccamp2015/pool/page1 fwiw :)
  261. pep. jonas’, when it's not your client doing it automatically..
  262. Guus Yeah, now I'm not gonna click anything anymore, obviously! 😃
  263. pep. *cough* http upload *cough*
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  265. Dele Olajide wonders if there is an XEP for URL previews, images and text summaries in chat conversations
  266. Ge0rG Message Attaching comes to mind
  267. pep. SIMS?
  268. Zash SIMS is for more file transfer like things
  269. pep. Ah, I was thinking Dele Olajide was referring to my mention of http upload
  270. pep. Which is very much file transfer :)
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  273. jonas’ Dele Olajide, I started to think about stuff like that, and how to possibly outsource that task to the server while at it
  274. jonas’ I haven’t gotten much beyond the stage of thinking though
  275. Dele Olajide Not httpfileupload. Just the ability to support the open graph protocol server-side and then send the preview data inbound on the XMPP conversation
  276. jonas’ https://github.com/jabbercat/jabbercat/issues/102
  277. jonas’ Dele Olajide, ^
  278. Kev Dele Olajide: You'd do that with references.
  279. Kev So you can send the first message through ok, then the server could do the opengraph lookup, and send a reference with the OG data. I/someone should probabyl spec that.
  280. Kev And also spec how to use local-IDs in references, while we wait for a sensible solution to global ids.
  281. Zash Or a bot. Or the sending client could do it.
  282. Kev Zash: Yes, any entity could send the additional data.
  283. jonas’ the question here is not so much how to attach the info to the message, but how to transfer the info, I think
  284. Dele Olajide P >Kev: someone should probabyl spec that. That is the XEP I am looking for 🙂
  285. Ge0rG XHTML-IM!
  286. Kev So this needs a References payload containing OG data, basically?
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  288. jonas’ Kev, basically, if "og data" was in general a sensible representation of that type of data.
  289. neshtaxmpp .
  290. jonas’ and if references had a way to work with non-body stuff
  291. jonas’
  292. Kev jonas’: Is it not?
  293. jonas’ Kev, whenever I try to extract og data, I find a new way how they represent e.g. an associated image
  294. Kev Is that people not using OG literally, or a problem within OG?
  295. jonas’ I’m not sure
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  297. Kev (Genuine question, I've not played with Og in any significant way)
  298. jonas’ I’d have to go back to look at things
  299. jonas’ also, OG is often not as complete as one would wish it to be, because the site typically wants people to click through
  300. jonas’ which is why foorl (my URL resolver bot) has special code for some pages (twitter) where it overrides the OG readout with screen scraping of the twitter HTML to make it more useful
  301. Zash I once joked about needing to repeat HTML metadata 5 times for open graph and similar things.
  302. jonas’ that sounds realistic
  303. Zash I apparently didn't exagerate enough :(
  304. Zash I think I found a couple more ways after that :(
  305. Kev Fundamentally, there's two questions, I think. One is whether OG is reliable for extracting stuff from pages, and the other is whether it's a sensible mapping to use in XMPP for sending these type of data.
  306. Kev The answer to (1) might be no, but still (2) be yes. (or potentially vice versa, although I don't immediately see how - no to both seems more likely than that).
  307. Zash Open graph, schema.org, twitter cards, dublin core, ... actual standard html <meta> tags
  308. jonas’ Kev, agreed, also to the "may be yes" for (2)
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  310. Zash If we hadn't deprecated 71 you could have built whatever description thing with that
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  312. Ge0rG You still can ;)
  313. Zash OOB style desc+image might be fine tho
  314. Kev I don't think 71 is remotely sensible for this.
  315. Kev My belief that we shouldn't deprecate 71 aside :)
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  322. jonas’ +1 Kev
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  327. jonas’ the server should not handle formatting of the preview, that’s client side
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  331. Kev I think just starting with title, URL and image preview would be sufficient for the majority of cases.
  332. Kev (Which I think was what Zash was also saying, although I might have misunderstood)
  333. Zash Something in that direction
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  335. Ge0rG Kev: that might not affect you any more, but with the new EU copyright directive, quoting of the title and image requires royalty payments to the respective publisher.
  336. Kev So I think you end up instead of <reference xmlns='urn:xmpp:reference:0' type='data' uri='http://xmpp.org'/> with something like <reference xmlns='urn:xmpp:reference:0' type='data' uri='http://xmpp.org'> <preview><title>XSF</title><image>http://xmpp.org/preview.png</image></preview> </reference> or thereabouts
  337. Ge0rG (it will make for an interesting precedent in court if you try to argue that it's the app that's loading the preview and not the server, with both being provided by the same party)
  338. Kev Ge0rG: I think that's probably a detail, rather than a protocol consideration. This'd be very useful deployed internally and just polling our Jira and Confluence instances, for example, even without hitting The Internet.
  339. Ge0rG Indeed.
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  341. Zash <reference uri='http://example.com/'><oob><desc>Example site</desc><uri>an image here<////>
  342. Kev Zash: you want to literally use xep66 you mean?
  343. Kev Only with URI coerced into being a preview, rather than the data itself.
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  345. Zash "want" is a bit strong, mostly I'm thinking out loud.
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  347. neshtaxmpp Kev: hi have moment
  348. Kev I'm semi-here.
  349. neshtaxmpp Kev: my friend ivan has compiled latest ejabberd from github... but he dont know if he installed completly to have everything like encryption and etc. in ejabberd. i find my friend ivan manual, to download latest erlang binary from official and he follow manual that comment: alternatively, you can do the complete erlang instalattion. it uncludes the erlang/otp platform and all of its applications... question is install esl-erlang... if this is complete erlang then why it is not erlang-base...
  350. neshtaxmpp in my friend ivan he has only omemo and openpg... when ivan try comment message omemo it comment he use old or unsupported server... ?
  351. Kev I'm completely unrelated to ejabberd, not sure why you picked me.
  352. neshtaxmpp Kev: ejabberd xmpp is no working... and ivan send more than 2 emails in ejabberd support and no comment. when everyting is completly configured with everything... my other friend will make completly true manual. becouse in internet there is mis-configured manuals, fake manuals... and ivan has been with more than 1 month with broken ejabberd server... and when today i found him how to install official latest erlang it dont comment him error. but it is unknown if it is completly. if you know how to or if you know someone comment. thanks.
  353. Zash This is also not the place for ejabberd support
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  355. Kev https://www.ejabberd.im/support/index.html
  356. Holger There's no place for ejabberd support 😜
  357. Holger neshtaxmpp: xmpp:ejabberd@conference.process-one.net?join
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  360. Holger neshtaxmpp: Maybe you could try to describe the problem in a concise manner (we did $x, expected $y to happen, but got error message $z instead) in that room.
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  427. fire has joined
  428. fire Welcome
  429. pep. no you
  430. fire pep., hey man
  431. fire I am from russia
  432. fire Ok?
  433. pep. It's fine if you are from russia
  434. pep. Not many people speak russian here though
  435. fire Yes, very good
  436. fire I am not speac english
  437. fire Don't know english language, ok?
  438. fire Speak*
  439. fire In jabber have bot translater for me?
  440. pep. Not in this room
  441. Zash This chat is about XMPP standards.
  442. fire Oh
  443. Zash What were you looking for?
  444. !xsf_Martin has left
  445. fire This room speak english language
  446. fire Maybe and I lern speak english language *DONT KNOW*
  447. fire This cool, yes?
  448. fire Where are your from?
  449. rion I'd say this chat speaks "standards" language and nothing else. well maybe except yesterday.
  450. vanitasvitae fire: you could join xmpp:offtopic@chat.disroot.org?join for casual chat in english ;)
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  454. fire vanitasvitae, thanks
  455. vanitasvitae :)
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  457. neshtaxmpp https://bgzashtita.es/upload/2648c95f187eff879a53c9890338a1a8d74210e6/GndMPwCWHRRIymalDzKbIhcDZIFM2p5FcsQ5BNsx/Screenshot_20190402-162851.jpg
  458. kokonoe has joined
  459. oli neshtaxmpp: get lost
  460. neshtaxmpp oli: ?
  461. oli go away
  462. Zash What's going on?
  463. neshtaxmpp What's going on?
  464. vanitasvitae What's going on?
  465. jonas’ What's going on?
  466. Zash And I say, hey, hey, hey, hey
  467. neshtaxmpp oli: yo tey tag me, now commemt what is going on ?
  468. mikaela has joined
  469. neshtaxmpp oli: yo try tag me, now commemt what is going on ?
  470. fire Zash, hey man, stop this
  471. pep. wat
  472. intosi Could we keep it civil, please? This is not Parliament.
  473. neshtaxmpp oli... comment ...
  474. neshtaxmpp oli... peoples are waiting... why you try insult me.
  475. neshtaxmpp what... hey i send private picture... is every body see it ?
  476. neshtaxmpp fire: Болгария
  477. intosi It seems you inadvertently sent a picture to the room instead of in a direct message.
  478. neshtaxmpp intosi: so the bug... is not fixed... i send photo in private message but it still persist the bug... when someone send private picture it send it too in public room.
  479. jonas’ neshtaxmpp, that’s a Conversations bug though
  480. intosi Maybe this room isn't the venue to discuss that bug.
  481. oli has left
  482. neshtaxmpp jonas’: unknown... in the past someone say other comment. see you... bussy right now.
  483. oli has joined
  484. Andrew Nenakhov intosi, "парламент - не место для дискуссий", // parliament is no place for discussions, as one of Putin's cronies famously said.
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  489. Guus Andrew Nenakhov I think the UK parlement said to that guy: "hold my beer."
  490. Andrew Nenakhov Lol
  491. intosi ;)
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  494. dwd Guus, Oh, come now. The UK Parliament wouldn't agree to that.
  495. dwd Guus, Mostly because it can't agree on anything.
  496. Guus they mostly agreed to disagree.
  497. Ge0rG speeking of agreement. dwd, I'm still missing your vote on 0412
  498. Guus nice, Ge0rG
  499. dwd Guus, They didn't agree to that either.
  500. dwd Ge0rG, Subtle, that.
  501. Ge0rG They disagreed to agree?
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  503. Ge0rG dwd: it's four months overdue, so every hour counts!
  504. Ge0rG also I need it to promote the badges!
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  517. jonas’ nice, peter wahers email on stanza encryption crashed my mail client
  518. Ge0rG it's appropriately encrypted
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  525. dwd Kev, If I correct a message that has no '84 request iwth a correction that does have a '84 request, which id does the receipt assert is received?
  526. jonas’ dwd, you do want to see the world burn, don’t you?
  527. jonas’ dwd, I think the intent of LMC prohibits that
  528. Ge0rG dwd: speaking of 0184?
  529. jonas’ > Correction MUST only be used to change the details of a stanza (e.g. the message body) and not to change the nature of the stanza
  530. Kev I'm increasingly thinking I should write a 308 replacement, using references and forwarding, to avoid this sort of ambiguity.
  531. Ge0rG because '84 is about pubsub
  532. dwd Kev, If I correct a message that has no '184 request iwth a correction that does have a '184 request, which id does the receipt assert is received?
  533. Kev I think we discussed this in passing at the Summit, even.
  534. dwd Oh. And correction didn't in this case. What ho.
  535. Ge0rG dwd: I wrote a long-ish analysis of 0184 LMC on standards@
  536. Ge0rG highlighting all(?) the corner cases
  537. dwd Ge0rG, The thread Kev is responding to? Or a different one?
  538. Ge0rG dwd: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2019-April/036025.html
  539. Ge0rG dwd: responding to Kev's response to my thread from last year
  540. dwd Oh, I'd not caught up as much as I'd thought.
  541. Kev So I guess the question is - if I rewrite 308 with forwards so there's no ambiguity between the payloads to be replaced, and the payloads that may be belonging to the correction stanza itself, a) would Council support it and b) would that be better as a breaking 308 update, or as a new XEP?
  542. dwd Oh, new XEP.
  543. Kev Because I think we're at the point that we need to break things.
  544. jonas’ that sounds like overkill
  545. Ge0rG my gut feeling is also "overkill"
  546. dwd But also: Does anyone *want* to use XEP-0308 for anything but correcting the <body/>?
  547. Ge0rG but then again I'm the one with multiple pages of arguing about the meaning of 0308.
  548. Kev dwd: Depends if we're in a world where markup is its own element, I think.
  549. Zash dwd: revoking your 👍 reaction?
  550. dwd I mean, adding a receipt or chat marker seems... Well, a bit rubbish at least.
  551. Ge0rG Kev: "forwarding" as in XEP-0297?
  552. dwd Zash, Retraction is a different thing. Perhaps?
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  554. Lance dwd: correcting body would also change associated xhtml-im, references, etc?
  555. Kev Lance: Yes.
  556. Zash dwd: changing it to 👎 then?
  557. dwd Lance, If I'd known this was the way to summon you, I'd have done this ages ago.
  558. Ge0rG Zash: correcting a reaction is different from reacting to a correction.
  559. Kev Ge0rG: Yes, as in 297. Or any other wrapper that distinguishes between replacement payloads and 'my' payloads, but 297 seems the logical.
  560. Zash Ge0rG: Brains
  561. Ge0rG Kev: much overkill.
  562. Kev But also the only way I can immediately see to resolve the issues you've raised about receipts.
  563. Ge0rG the biggest benefit I see with 0297 is that it mandates delay timestamps.
  564. Kev Well, no, that's not true.
  565. Kev It's fine to just say 'you can't add a receipt. If you have a receipt in the original, reply to it. If you have a receipt in a correction, reply to that'.
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  567. Ge0rG yeah, not being allowed to add a receipt is perfectly fine. the problem remains nevertheless.
  568. Ge0rG I'm currently thinking about tracking both the *first* id and the *last* id of a set of original-corrections
  569. Ge0rG so that I can apply corrections from both 'right' and 'wrong' senders.
  570. Kev As long as you don't do the Wrong thing with ids, there's no issue, AFAICS.
  571. Ge0rG but that obviously doesn't solve the receipts problem.
  572. Kev (Combined with the above rule)
  573. Ge0rG Kev: but when wrong is right, then right is wrong.
  574. dwd What about "You cannot add or remove elements, just replace"?
  575. Ge0rG and where wrong is right, -1 is +1
  576. Ge0rG dwd: I think that's stated in 0308 already, somewhere.
  577. Kev As long as ids persist, and you send a receipt for any stanza that asks for one, you're good, I think.
  578. jonas’ Ge0rG, dwd: > Correction MUST only be used to change the details of a stanza (e.g. the message body) and not to change the nature of the stanza
  579. Kev Ge0rG: The intention is, but it doesn't use exactly those words.
  580. Ge0rG is the _nature_ of a stanza the same as its XML skeleton?
  581. Kev Right, it's the fluffier test jonas’ pasted.
  582. Ge0rG I suppose the "have a common ID for all related messsages in the DB" argument is very strong. If you mandate that MAM IDs and receipt IDs are explicitly excluded from the correction-body and instead are considered correction-metadata, I will unblock the PR.
  583. Ge0rG Even though I dislike the concurrect corrections from multiple clients causing a random outcome situation.
  584. jonas’ I find Ge0rGs argument about concurrent ACKs actually quite compelling :/
  585. Ge0rG (I also dislike DAGs, but I consider them appropriate in this situation)
  586. jonas’ mandating the ACK-sender to send a correction to their previous ACK is in violation of '184 and also quite meh
  587. Ge0rG jonas’: the correction-of-ack part was the least serious analogy of my post
  588. Kev You end up with race conditions when you're correcting from multiple clients whatever happens, I think, if you try hard enough.
  589. jonas’ aaaah the races, they’re everywhere
  590. Ge0rG Kev: yes, but with the DAG, you end up with multiple leaf messages
  591. dwd We *can* correct from multiple devices?
  592. Ge0rG dwd: we are not allowed to.
  593. jonas’ are we not?
  594. Ge0rG except in a MUC
  595. Ge0rG did anybody actually _read_ my message?
  596. jonas’ I’m sorry, not yet :)
  597. jonas’ I was halfway through
  598. jonas’ and then I got distracted
  599. Ge0rG XEP: > A correction MUST only be allowed when both the original message and correction are received from the same full-JID. My mail: > in direct-messaging siutaitons, this is violating the full-JID-MUST-match business rule in 0308, which I disagree with for practical reasons. In a MUC, ...
  600. dwd Ge0rG, I have a 2K screen in portrait with your email on and it doesn't fit without scrolling.
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  602. jonas’ dwd, turn down your fontsize, obviously
  603. Ge0rG what jonas’ said.
  604. Ge0rG next time I'll send HTML email that will auto-expand to your full screen width.
  605. dwd jonas’, Seriously, it's not a large fontsize to begin with.
  606. Ge0rG dwd: just tell me to shut up and to die on another hill.
  607. jonas’ dwd, anything larger than 5 px wide `m` is too large!!
  608. Ge0rG I'll vote -0 and you can pass 0308.
  609. Ge0rG or ~coerce~ ~bribe~ convince me with your offer to vote 0412 +1
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  618. Kev I note that I didn't block 412, despite not agreeing with the compliance suites ;)
  619. Ge0rG Kev: you missed out on a great trade deal opportunity!
  620. Ge0rG But you still have a day to change your vote.
  621. Kev There's still time until tomorrow afternoon :)
  622. Kev Or is it next week for 412? I forget.
  623. dwd Not if I vote now.
  624. Ge0rG Tomorrow.
  625. Ge0rG Looking at the author churn that Compliance Suites has accomplished in the past, I'm still undecided whether it was a very smart or a very dumb idea to take it over.
  626. Ge0rG So far, I still feel motivated and have a feeling that my skin is sufficiently thick to counter the nay sayers.
  627. Kev I would very very much like us to not have a 2020 Compliance Suite. I think it's long overdue for a rethink of how we do them.
  628. Ge0rG Kev: let's have that discussion after dwd voted +1 or the vote expires.
  629. Kev I'm still thinking that the idea of having two 'living' XEPs, one for 'core XEPs' and one for 'direction of travel XEPs' and talking about versions of those, instead of years of compliance suites.
  630. dwd Oh, that';s an interesting thought.
  631. Kev I think that makes it less contentious, because then you don't have people sliding in things that they want the state to be, but isn't yet, or missing out things that are the state buy they wish weren't.
  632. Kev You can still update yearly, but without the "Oh no, it's 2019 and we don't have a 2019 suite, the sky is falling" associated with the current suites.
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  634. Ge0rG Kev: yes, that's a great idea. However, it will make versioning and version referencing a pain.
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  636. Kev I think the resultant guidance would be more useful for devs, and because there isn't a mix of now and future, also more useful for the hypothetical marketing people using these things as badges.
  637. Kev Ge0rG: I'm not sure it's that much harder, is it? You just talk about 'state 1.0', 'state 3.2' instead of 'compliance 2018', 'compliance 2019'.
  638. Ge0rG Kev: I agree in principle, but both our process and our tooling is severely lacking to pull this off.
  639. dwd New XEP-0308 question - if I correct a message, the effect is that the message's payload is replaced by the correction, and as such, the corrected message now has the updated semantics, right?
  640. Kev Ge0rG: I don't immediately see why, but I might be being enthusiastically naive.
  641. Ge0rG Kev: congratulations, you just replaced an obvious versioning scheme with an opaque one.
  642. dwd Kev, Well, for one thing, we don't have an effective way to reference versions.
  643. Kev dwd: Other than that you shouldn't be changing semantics.
  644. Kev Ge0rG: Well, if XEP numbers are better, we can still keep doing what we were already doing, and including versions in the titles and replacing the whole XEP. I don't think it's ideal, but it's feasible.
  645. dwd Kev, RIght, but if a message has a <body/>, the corrected message has an updated body, and whatever the client did with the original body is replaced by the new one, right?
  646. Kev dwd: I think it's up to the client how they render it, but logically yes.
  647. dwd Kev, So if the corrected message is a correction, then by correcting the correction you are correcting the original message indirectly, yes?
  648. Kev You can't be, no.
  649. dwd Kev, Why not?
  650. Kev Because you'd be replacing the bit that tells you what you're correcting.
  651. dwd So the LMC element is also copied to the corrected stanza?
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  653. Kev No, it'd be removed from the interim correction, because you replace all payloads.
  654. Ge0rG The process problem is that the new Compliance Suite is either bound to be Eternally Experimental, or have heavy council battles on each minor change in Draft. And obviously, Final is a no go
  655. Kev Thereby changing the meaning of the interim correction, which isn't allowed.
  656. dwd Kev, But was the LMC element copied to the original message by the first correction?
  657. Kev Ge0rG: It wouldn't be standards-track, presumably, would go to Active instead, but possibly.
  658. Kev dwd: And that's one of the reasons I'm pondering shoving it in a forward.
  659. Kev Because obviously not, no, but if you take it literally ...
  660. dwd Kev, Right, what I'm trying to figure out is whether correcting the original or correcting the correction makes any semantic difference.
  661. dwd Kev, I think it's nice if we pick one, mind. Just not sure it actually matters which.
  662. Ge0rG Forwarded will come with a nice evil can of security worms for implementations to jump over.
  663. dwd Security worms are the worst kind.
  664. Kev dwd: I think there's two possible responses to that One is that it does matter, and having a single identifier makes more sense. Two is that we already picked one, the current discussion is whether to change it.
  665. Kev Ge0rG: I was pondering that. So instead of 297, the new payloads are a child of the correction element? That has its own issues, but fewer.
  666. dwd Kev, But why does it matter, and have we actually picked one? (My impression was that existing clients do both)
  667. Ge0rG dwd: Kev picked one but failed to write it down unambiguously, so at least three developers picked the other one.
  668. Kev Well, Ge0rG agreed in the thread that the original intend of the XEP seemed to be what I claimed it to be, and this was a request to change it. So I think the XEP gives one - that clients are implemented both ways is a different (but related) issue.
  669. Kev Well, Ge0rG agreed in the thread that the original intent of the XEP seemed to be what I claimed it to be, and this was a request to change it. So I think the XEP gives one - that clients are implemented both ways is a different (but related) issue.
  670. Ge0rG Damn, I shouldn't have made that concession.
  671. dwd To put it another way, if you received a correction to a correction, what could it possibly mean except to update the correction (and thereby correct the original message again)
  672. Kev Sounds like the right time for me to check out for the day :)
  673. Ge0rG Kev: with what dwd said above, I'd say that "correct a correction" would be a legitimate way to interpret the XEP
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  677. Ge0rG Kev: you have another week left to make me change my mind...
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  782. fire Hey man
  783. fire Don't sleep
  784. fire Russia online
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  792. fire offtopic@chat.disroot.org not connect
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  795. fire Casual english conference for me, ok?
  796. Dele Olajide has left
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  798. fire Not fear :-D
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  800. fire This many people
  801. fire I am look
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  803. fire What is fucking shit?
  804. MattJ fire, hey, this room is for discussion of XMPP standards. It is not a general chat, and you have been given the address of a general chat: offtopic@chat.disroot.org
  805. fire MattJ, general chat not found for me
  806. fire MattJ, why?
  807. larma has joined
  808. MattJ Check you typed the address correctly
  809. MattJ Depending on your client, this link may work: xmpp:offtopic@chat.disroot.org?join
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  811. fire Ok
  812. fire Write error 400 jid malformed
  813. MattJ The JID is offtopic@chat.disroot.org
  814. fire It is work, bat not connect for me
  815. Wojtek has left
  816. fire This private group maybe?
  817. MattJ It is not private, it works for me
  818. fire Why I am not going group
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  830. fire MattJ, I'm fire, ok?
  831. MattJ Yes?
  832. fire MattJ, you like fire?
  833. MattJ This is not a general off-topic chat
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  835. fire MattJ, yes
  836. fire General off-topic chat RIP
  837. fire What will be doing this
  838. fire My english language level zero
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  844. fire lovetox, hey, what doing?
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  848. fire Runing
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