-
pep.
Can I have a quick show of hands for people who plan to go to CCCamp this year?
-
pep.
(ftr, not https://www.cccamp.org/)
-
Guus
As that's in the US, you might want to re-ask when the locals have had time to wake up. š
-
pep.
What is in the us?
-
jonasā
confusion!:)
-
Guus
oh, sorry
-
pep.
CCCamp is in Germany
-
Guus
_not_ the link that you provided.
-
Guus
If I see a link, I click on it.
-
jonasā
Guus, thatās a vulnerability
-
Guus
I know.
-
Guus
I'm vulnerable.
-
pep.
https://www.flickr.com/groups/cccamp2015/pool/page1 fwiw :)
-
pep.
jonasā, when it's not your client doing it automatically..
-
Guus
Yeah, now I'm not gonna click anything anymore, obviously! š
-
pep.
*cough* http upload *cough*
- Dele Olajide wonders if there is an XEP for URL previews, images and text summaries in chat conversations
-
Ge0rG
Message Attaching comes to mind
-
pep.
SIMS?
-
Zash
SIMS is for more file transfer like things
-
pep.
Ah, I was thinking Dele Olajide was referring to my mention of http upload
-
pep.
Which is very much file transfer :)
-
jonasā
Dele Olajide, I started to think about stuff like that, and how to possibly outsource that task to the server while at it
-
jonasā
I havenāt gotten much beyond the stage of thinking though
-
Dele Olajide
Not httpfileupload. Just the ability to support the open graph protocol server-side and then send the preview data inbound on the XMPP conversation
-
jonasā
https://github.com/jabbercat/jabbercat/issues/102
-
jonasā
Dele Olajide, ^
-
Kev
Dele Olajide: You'd do that with references.
-
Kev
So you can send the first message through ok, then the server could do the opengraph lookup, and send a reference with the OG data. I/someone should probabyl spec that.
-
Kev
And also spec how to use local-IDs in references, while we wait for a sensible solution to global ids.
-
Zash
Or a bot. Or the sending client could do it.
-
Kev
Zash: Yes, any entity could send the additional data.
-
jonasā
the question here is not so much how to attach the info to the message, but how to transfer the info, I think
-
Dele Olajide
P >Kev: someone should probabyl spec that. That is the XEP I am looking for š
-
Ge0rG
XHTML-IM!
-
Kev
So this needs a References payload containing OG data, basically?
-
jonasā
Kev, basically, if "og data" was in general a sensible representation of that type of data.
-
neshtaxmpp
.
-
jonasā
and if references had a way to work with non-body stuff✎ -
jonasā
ā ✏
-
Kev
jonasā: Is it not?
-
jonasā
Kev, whenever I try to extract og data, I find a new way how they represent e.g. an associated image
-
Kev
Is that people not using OG literally, or a problem within OG?
-
jonasā
Iām not sure
-
Kev
(Genuine question, I've not played with Og in any significant way)
-
jonasā
Iād have to go back to look at things
-
jonasā
also, OG is often not as complete as one would wish it to be, because the site typically wants people to click through
-
jonasā
which is why foorl (my URL resolver bot) has special code for some pages (twitter) where it overrides the OG readout with screen scraping of the twitter HTML to make it more useful
-
Zash
I once joked about needing to repeat HTML metadata 5 times for open graph and similar things.
-
jonasā
that sounds realistic
-
Zash
I apparently didn't exagerate enough :(
-
Zash
I think I found a couple more ways after that :(
-
Kev
Fundamentally, there's two questions, I think. One is whether OG is reliable for extracting stuff from pages, and the other is whether it's a sensible mapping to use in XMPP for sending these type of data.
-
Kev
The answer to (1) might be no, but still (2) be yes. (or potentially vice versa, although I don't immediately see how - no to both seems more likely than that).
-
Zash
Open graph, schema.org, twitter cards, dublin core, ... actual standard html <meta> tags
-
jonasā
Kev, agreed, also to the "may be yes" for (2)
-
Zash
If we hadn't deprecated 71 you could have built whatever description thing with that
-
Ge0rG
You still can ;)
-
Zash
OOB style desc+image might be fine tho
-
Kev
I don't think 71 is remotely sensible for this.
-
Kev
My belief that we shouldn't deprecate 71 aside :)
-
jonasā
+1 Kev
-
jonasā
the server should not handle formatting of the preview, thatās client side
-
Kev
I think just starting with title, URL and image preview would be sufficient for the majority of cases.
-
Kev
(Which I think was what Zash was also saying, although I might have misunderstood)
-
Zash
Something in that direction
-
Ge0rG
Kev: that might not affect you any more, but with the new EU copyright directive, quoting of the title and image requires royalty payments to the respective publisher.
-
Kev
So I think you end up instead of <reference xmlns='urn:xmpp:reference:0' type='data' uri='http://xmpp.org'/> with something like <reference xmlns='urn:xmpp:reference:0' type='data' uri='http://xmpp.org'> <preview><title>XSF</title><image>http://xmpp.org/preview.png</image></preview> </reference> or thereabouts
-
Ge0rG
(it will make for an interesting precedent in court if you try to argue that it's the app that's loading the preview and not the server, with both being provided by the same party)
-
Kev
Ge0rG: I think that's probably a detail, rather than a protocol consideration. This'd be very useful deployed internally and just polling our Jira and Confluence instances, for example, even without hitting The Internet.
-
Ge0rG
Indeed.
-
Zash
<reference uri='http://example.com/'><oob><desc>Example site</desc><uri>an image here<////>
-
Kev
Zash: you want to literally use xep66 you mean?
-
Kev
Only with URI coerced into being a preview, rather than the data itself.
-
Zash
"want" is a bit strong, mostly I'm thinking out loud.
-
neshtaxmpp
Kev: hi have moment
-
Kev
I'm semi-here.
-
neshtaxmpp
Kev: my friend ivan has compiled latest ejabberd from github... but he dont know if he installed completly to have everything like encryption and etc. in ejabberd. i find my friend ivan manual, to download latest erlang binary from official and he follow manual that comment: alternatively, you can do the complete erlang instalattion. it uncludes the erlang/otp platform and all of its applications... question is install esl-erlang... if this is complete erlang then why it is not erlang-base...
-
neshtaxmpp
in my friend ivan he has only omemo and openpg... when ivan try comment message omemo it comment he use old or unsupported server... ?
-
Kev
I'm completely unrelated to ejabberd, not sure why you picked me.
-
neshtaxmpp
Kev: ejabberd xmpp is no working... and ivan send more than 2 emails in ejabberd support and no comment. when everyting is completly configured with everything... my other friend will make completly true manual. becouse in internet there is mis-configured manuals, fake manuals... and ivan has been with more than 1 month with broken ejabberd server... and when today i found him how to install official latest erlang it dont comment him error. but it is unknown if it is completly. if you know how to or if you know someone comment. thanks.
-
Zash
This is also not the place for ejabberd support
-
Kev
https://www.ejabberd.im/support/index.html
-
Holger
There's no place for ejabberd support š
-
Holger
neshtaxmpp: xmpp:ejabberd@conference.process-one.net?join
-
Holger
neshtaxmpp: Maybe you could try to describe the problem in a concise manner (we did $x, expected $y to happen, but got error message $z instead) in that room.
-
fire
Welcome
-
pep.
no you
-
fire
pep., hey man
-
fire
I am from russia
-
fire
Ok?
-
pep.
It's fine if you are from russia
-
pep.
Not many people speak russian here though
-
fire
Yes, very good
-
fire
I am not speac english
-
fire
Don't know english language, ok?
-
fire
Speak*
-
fire
In jabber have bot translater for me?
-
pep.
Not in this room
-
Zash
This chat is about XMPP standards.
-
fire
Oh
-
Zash
What were you looking for?
-
fire
This room speak english language
-
fire
Maybe and I lern speak english language *DONT KNOW*
-
fire
This cool, yes?
-
fire
Where are your from?
-
rion
I'd say this chat speaks "standards" language and nothing else. well maybe except yesterday.
-
vanitasvitae
fire: you could join xmpp:offtopic@chat.disroot.org?join for casual chat in english ;)
-
fire
vanitasvitae, thanks
-
vanitasvitae
:)
-
neshtaxmpp
https://bgzashtita.es/upload/2648c95f187eff879a53c9890338a1a8d74210e6/GndMPwCWHRRIymalDzKbIhcDZIFM2p5FcsQ5BNsx/Screenshot_20190402-162851.jpg
-
oli
neshtaxmpp: get lost
-
neshtaxmpp
oli: ?
-
oli
go away
-
Zash
What's going on?
-
neshtaxmpp
What's going on?
-
vanitasvitae
What's going on?
-
jonasā
What's going on?
-
Zash
And I say, hey, hey, hey, hey
-
neshtaxmpp
oli: yo tey tag me, now commemt what is going on ?✎ -
neshtaxmpp
oli: yo try tag me, now commemt what is going on ? ✏
-
fire
Zash, hey man, stop this
-
pep.
wat
-
intosi
Could we keep it civil, please? This is not Parliament.
-
neshtaxmpp
oli... comment ...✎ -
neshtaxmpp
oli... peoples are waiting... why you try insult me. ✏
-
neshtaxmpp
what... hey i send private picture... is every body see it ?
-
neshtaxmpp
fire: ŠŠ¾Š»Š³Š°ŃŠøŃ
-
intosi
It seems you inadvertently sent a picture to the room instead of in a direct message.
-
neshtaxmpp
intosi: so the bug... is not fixed... i send photo in private message but it still persist the bug... when someone send private picture it send it too in public room.
-
jonasā
neshtaxmpp, thatās a Conversations bug though
-
intosi
Maybe this room isn't the venue to discuss that bug.
-
neshtaxmpp
jonasā: unknown... in the past someone say other comment. see you... bussy right now.
-
Andrew Nenakhov
intosi, "ŠæŠ°ŃŠ»Š°Š¼ŠµŠ½Ń - Š½Šµ Š¼ŠµŃŃŠ¾ Š“Š»Ń Š“ŠøŃŠŗŃŃŃŠøŠ¹", // parliament is no place for discussions, as one of Putin's cronies famously said.
-
Guus
Andrew Nenakhov I think the UK parlement said to that guy: "hold my beer."
-
Andrew Nenakhov
Lol
-
intosi
;)
-
dwd
Guus, Oh, come now. The UK Parliament wouldn't agree to that.
-
dwd
Guus, Mostly because it can't agree on anything.
-
Guus
they mostly agreed to disagree.
-
Ge0rG
speeking of agreement. dwd, I'm still missing your vote on 0412
-
Guus
nice, Ge0rG
-
dwd
Guus, They didn't agree to that either.
-
dwd
Ge0rG, Subtle, that.
-
Ge0rG
They disagreed to agree?
-
Ge0rG
dwd: it's four months overdue, so every hour counts!
-
Ge0rG
also I need it to promote the badges!
-
jonasā
nice, peter wahers email on stanza encryption crashed my mail client
-
Ge0rG
it's appropriately encrypted
-
dwd
Kev, If I correct a message that has no '84 request iwth a correction that does have a '84 request, which id does the receipt assert is received?
-
jonasā
dwd, you do want to see the world burn, donāt you?
-
jonasā
dwd, I think the intent of LMC prohibits that
-
Ge0rG
dwd: speaking of 0184?
-
jonasā
> Correction MUST only be used to change the details of a stanza (e.g. the message body) and not to change the nature of the stanza
-
Kev
I'm increasingly thinking I should write a 308 replacement, using references and forwarding, to avoid this sort of ambiguity.
-
Ge0rG
because '84 is about pubsub
-
dwd
Kev, If I correct a message that has no '184 request iwth a correction that does have a '184 request, which id does the receipt assert is received?
-
Kev
I think we discussed this in passing at the Summit, even.
-
dwd
Oh. And correction didn't in this case. What ho.
-
Ge0rG
dwd: I wrote a long-ish analysis of 0184 LMC on standards@
-
Ge0rG
highlighting all(?) the corner cases
-
dwd
Ge0rG, The thread Kev is responding to? Or a different one?
-
Ge0rG
dwd: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2019-April/036025.html
-
Ge0rG
dwd: responding to Kev's response to my thread from last year
-
dwd
Oh, I'd not caught up as much as I'd thought.
-
Kev
So I guess the question is - if I rewrite 308 with forwards so there's no ambiguity between the payloads to be replaced, and the payloads that may be belonging to the correction stanza itself, a) would Council support it and b) would that be better as a breaking 308 update, or as a new XEP?
-
dwd
Oh, new XEP.
-
Kev
Because I think we're at the point that we need to break things.
-
jonasā
that sounds like overkill
-
Ge0rG
my gut feeling is also "overkill"
-
dwd
But also: Does anyone *want* to use XEP-0308 for anything but correcting the <body/>?
-
Ge0rG
but then again I'm the one with multiple pages of arguing about the meaning of 0308.
-
Kev
dwd: Depends if we're in a world where markup is its own element, I think.
-
Zash
dwd: revoking your š reaction?
-
dwd
I mean, adding a receipt or chat marker seems... Well, a bit rubbish at least.
-
Ge0rG
Kev: "forwarding" as in XEP-0297?
-
dwd
Zash, Retraction is a different thing. Perhaps?
-
Lance
dwd: correcting body would also change associated xhtml-im, references, etc?
-
Kev
Lance: Yes.
-
Zash
dwd: changing it to š then?
-
dwd
Lance, If I'd known this was the way to summon you, I'd have done this ages ago.
-
Ge0rG
Zash: correcting a reaction is different from reacting to a correction.
-
Kev
Ge0rG: Yes, as in 297. Or any other wrapper that distinguishes between replacement payloads and 'my' payloads, but 297 seems the logical.
-
Zash
Ge0rG: Brains
-
Ge0rG
Kev: much overkill.
-
Kev
But also the only way I can immediately see to resolve the issues you've raised about receipts.
-
Ge0rG
the biggest benefit I see with 0297 is that it mandates delay timestamps.
-
Kev
Well, no, that's not true.
-
Kev
It's fine to just say 'you can't add a receipt. If you have a receipt in the original, reply to it. If you have a receipt in a correction, reply to that'.
-
Ge0rG
yeah, not being allowed to add a receipt is perfectly fine. the problem remains nevertheless.
-
Ge0rG
I'm currently thinking about tracking both the *first* id and the *last* id of a set of original-corrections
-
Ge0rG
so that I can apply corrections from both 'right' and 'wrong' senders.
-
Kev
As long as you don't do the Wrong thing with ids, there's no issue, AFAICS.
-
Ge0rG
but that obviously doesn't solve the receipts problem.
-
Kev
(Combined with the above rule)
-
Ge0rG
Kev: but when wrong is right, then right is wrong.
-
dwd
What about "You cannot add or remove elements, just replace"?
-
Ge0rG
and where wrong is right, -1 is +1
-
Ge0rG
dwd: I think that's stated in 0308 already, somewhere.
-
Kev
As long as ids persist, and you send a receipt for any stanza that asks for one, you're good, I think.
-
jonasā
Ge0rG, dwd: > Correction MUST only be used to change the details of a stanza (e.g. the message body) and not to change the nature of the stanza
-
Kev
Ge0rG: The intention is, but it doesn't use exactly those words.
-
Ge0rG
is the _nature_ of a stanza the same as its XML skeleton?
-
Kev
Right, it's the fluffier test jonasā pasted.
-
Ge0rG
I suppose the "have a common ID for all related messsages in the DB" argument is very strong. If you mandate that MAM IDs and receipt IDs are explicitly excluded from the correction-body and instead are considered correction-metadata, I will unblock the PR.
-
Ge0rG
Even though I dislike the concurrect corrections from multiple clients causing a random outcome situation.
-
jonasā
I find Ge0rGs argument about concurrent ACKs actually quite compelling :/
-
Ge0rG
(I also dislike DAGs, but I consider them appropriate in this situation)
-
jonasā
mandating the ACK-sender to send a correction to their previous ACK is in violation of '184 and also quite meh
-
Ge0rG
jonasā: the correction-of-ack part was the least serious analogy of my post
-
Kev
You end up with race conditions when you're correcting from multiple clients whatever happens, I think, if you try hard enough.
-
jonasā
aaaah the races, theyāre everywhere
-
Ge0rG
Kev: yes, but with the DAG, you end up with multiple leaf messages
-
dwd
We *can* correct from multiple devices?
-
Ge0rG
dwd: we are not allowed to.
-
jonasā
are we not?
-
Ge0rG
except in a MUC
-
Ge0rG
did anybody actually _read_ my message?
-
jonasā
Iām sorry, not yet :)
-
jonasā
I was halfway through
-
jonasā
and then I got distracted
-
Ge0rG
XEP: > A correction MUST only be allowed when both the original message and correction are received from the same full-JID. My mail: > in direct-messaging siutaitons, this is violating the full-JID-MUST-match business rule in 0308, which I disagree with for practical reasons. In a MUC, ...
-
dwd
Ge0rG, I have a 2K screen in portrait with your email on and it doesn't fit without scrolling.
-
jonasā
dwd, turn down your fontsize, obviously
-
Ge0rG
what jonasā said.
-
Ge0rG
next time I'll send HTML email that will auto-expand to your full screen width.
-
dwd
jonasā, Seriously, it's not a large fontsize to begin with.
-
Ge0rG
dwd: just tell me to shut up and to die on another hill.
-
jonasā
dwd, anything larger than 5 px wide `m` is too large!!
-
Ge0rG
I'll vote -0 and you can pass 0308.
-
Ge0rG
or ~coerce~ ~bribe~ convince me with your offer to vote 0412 +1
-
Kev
I note that I didn't block 412, despite not agreeing with the compliance suites ;)
-
Ge0rG
Kev: you missed out on a great trade deal opportunity!
-
Ge0rG
But you still have a day to change your vote.
-
Kev
There's still time until tomorrow afternoon :)
-
Kev
Or is it next week for 412? I forget.
-
dwd
Not if I vote now.
-
Ge0rG
Tomorrow.
-
Ge0rG
Looking at the author churn that Compliance Suites has accomplished in the past, I'm still undecided whether it was a very smart or a very dumb idea to take it over.
-
Ge0rG
So far, I still feel motivated and have a feeling that my skin is sufficiently thick to counter the nay sayers.
-
Kev
I would very very much like us to not have a 2020 Compliance Suite. I think it's long overdue for a rethink of how we do them.
-
Ge0rG
Kev: let's have that discussion after dwd voted +1 or the vote expires.
-
Kev
I'm still thinking that the idea of having two 'living' XEPs, one for 'core XEPs' and one for 'direction of travel XEPs' and talking about versions of those, instead of years of compliance suites.
-
dwd
Oh, that';s an interesting thought.
-
Kev
I think that makes it less contentious, because then you don't have people sliding in things that they want the state to be, but isn't yet, or missing out things that are the state buy they wish weren't.
-
Kev
You can still update yearly, but without the "Oh no, it's 2019 and we don't have a 2019 suite, the sky is falling" associated with the current suites.
-
Ge0rG
Kev: yes, that's a great idea. However, it will make versioning and version referencing a pain.
-
Kev
I think the resultant guidance would be more useful for devs, and because there isn't a mix of now and future, also more useful for the hypothetical marketing people using these things as badges.
-
Kev
Ge0rG: I'm not sure it's that much harder, is it? You just talk about 'state 1.0', 'state 3.2' instead of 'compliance 2018', 'compliance 2019'.
-
Ge0rG
Kev: I agree in principle, but both our process and our tooling is severely lacking to pull this off.
-
dwd
New XEP-0308 question - if I correct a message, the effect is that the message's payload is replaced by the correction, and as such, the corrected message now has the updated semantics, right?
-
Kev
Ge0rG: I don't immediately see why, but I might be being enthusiastically naive.
-
Ge0rG
Kev: congratulations, you just replaced an obvious versioning scheme with an opaque one.
-
dwd
Kev, Well, for one thing, we don't have an effective way to reference versions.
-
Kev
dwd: Other than that you shouldn't be changing semantics.
-
Kev
Ge0rG: Well, if XEP numbers are better, we can still keep doing what we were already doing, and including versions in the titles and replacing the whole XEP. I don't think it's ideal, but it's feasible.
-
dwd
Kev, RIght, but if a message has a <body/>, the corrected message has an updated body, and whatever the client did with the original body is replaced by the new one, right?
-
Kev
dwd: I think it's up to the client how they render it, but logically yes.
-
dwd
Kev, So if the corrected message is a correction, then by correcting the correction you are correcting the original message indirectly, yes?
-
Kev
You can't be, no.
-
dwd
Kev, Why not?
-
Kev
Because you'd be replacing the bit that tells you what you're correcting.
-
dwd
So the LMC element is also copied to the corrected stanza?
-
Kev
No, it'd be removed from the interim correction, because you replace all payloads.
-
Ge0rG
The process problem is that the new Compliance Suite is either bound to be Eternally Experimental, or have heavy council battles on each minor change in Draft. And obviously, Final is a no go
-
Kev
Thereby changing the meaning of the interim correction, which isn't allowed.
-
dwd
Kev, But was the LMC element copied to the original message by the first correction?
-
Kev
Ge0rG: It wouldn't be standards-track, presumably, would go to Active instead, but possibly.
-
Kev
dwd: And that's one of the reasons I'm pondering shoving it in a forward.
-
Kev
Because obviously not, no, but if you take it literally ...
-
dwd
Kev, Right, what I'm trying to figure out is whether correcting the original or correcting the correction makes any semantic difference.
-
dwd
Kev, I think it's nice if we pick one, mind. Just not sure it actually matters which.
-
Ge0rG
Forwarded will come with a nice evil can of security worms for implementations to jump over.
-
dwd
Security worms are the worst kind.
-
Kev
dwd: I think there's two possible responses to that One is that it does matter, and having a single identifier makes more sense. Two is that we already picked one, the current discussion is whether to change it.
-
Kev
Ge0rG: I was pondering that. So instead of 297, the new payloads are a child of the correction element? That has its own issues, but fewer.
-
dwd
Kev, But why does it matter, and have we actually picked one? (My impression was that existing clients do both)
-
Ge0rG
dwd: Kev picked one but failed to write it down unambiguously, so at least three developers picked the other one.
-
Kev
Well, Ge0rG agreed in the thread that the original intend of the XEP seemed to be what I claimed it to be, and this was a request to change it. So I think the XEP gives one - that clients are implemented both ways is a different (but related) issue.✎ -
Kev
Well, Ge0rG agreed in the thread that the original intent of the XEP seemed to be what I claimed it to be, and this was a request to change it. So I think the XEP gives one - that clients are implemented both ways is a different (but related) issue. ✏
-
Ge0rG
Damn, I shouldn't have made that concession.
-
dwd
To put it another way, if you received a correction to a correction, what could it possibly mean except to update the correction (and thereby correct the original message again)
-
Kev
Sounds like the right time for me to check out for the day :)
-
Ge0rG
Kev: with what dwd said above, I'd say that "correct a correction" would be a legitimate way to interpret the XEP
-
Ge0rG
Kev: you have another week left to make me change my mind...
-
fire
Hey man
-
fire
Don't sleep
-
fire
Russia online
-
fire
offtopic@chat.disroot.org not connect
-
fire
Casual english conference for me, ok?
-
fire
Not fear :-D
-
fire
This many people
-
fire
I am look
-
fire
What is fucking shit?
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MattJ
fire, hey, this room is for discussion of XMPP standards. It is not a general chat, and you have been given the address of a general chat: offtopic@chat.disroot.org
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fire
MattJ, general chat not found for me
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fire
MattJ, why?
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MattJ
Check you typed the address correctly
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MattJ
Depending on your client, this link may work: xmpp:offtopic@chat.disroot.org?join
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fire
Ok
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fire
Write error 400 jid malformed
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MattJ
The JID is offtopic@chat.disroot.org
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fire
It is work, bat not connect for me
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fire
This private group maybe?
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MattJ
It is not private, it works for me
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fire
Why I am not going group
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fire
MattJ, I'm fire, ok?
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MattJ
Yes?
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fire
MattJ, you like fire?
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MattJ
This is not a general off-topic chat
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fire
MattJ, yes
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fire
General off-topic chat RIP
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fire
What will be doing this
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fire
My english language level zero
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fire
lovetox, hey, what doing?
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fire
Runing