XSF Discussion - 2019-04-04

Grids FTW

aaaaand boom!

o/

\o

\o/

quorum

ralphm MattJ ?

bangs it?

oh hey

what does one do to gavels?

tap?

caress maybe

1. Roll call, agenda

we've established that there's three of us here

Agenda driven by Trello, as usual

does anyone want to discuss anything that's not already in Trello?

42

I suggest holding of much of the discussion around sponsoring until we have a full board.

A Tedd has created badges.

Here

Ge0rG is that to be discussed?

hey Matt!

Ge0rG is that to be discussed by board?

2. Confirm minute taker / have an awkward moment of silence

Haha

Would someone be so kind as to do the minutes?

Guus: I'm not sure. Board called out for volunteers, and we have two strawman badge proposals plus a yet unanswered jobs call

Where are the proposals?

3. Badges everywhere

Seve: mine is under https://op-co.de/tmp/xmpp-compliance-badges/ - theTedd made one at https://bitbucket.org/mrtedd/compliance-badges/src

I thought you were working together, so they are different proposals then? Are those finished?

both are cool, well done, thx

Seve: Tedd's proposal is an interactive generator, mine is a shell script that hammers badges.io

neither is quite there yet

Thanks to both of you for putting in the effort.

I'm unsure who rubber-stamps a particular set.

board? council? the XEP author?

Since we decided the XSF should have ownership, I would assume it's up to the board to ultimately decide

Unless Board delegates.

Not that I'm particularly fussy

I'm open for feedback and discussion as well

so, board. works for me.

I'm not sure if I can make an objective choice, though. I'd love for member feedback / cooperation

Ge0rG, if I have to decide, I would prefer to wait a bit until both are done to be able to decide. Although I also would like to give some time for the job as well (I'm very happy both of you put work on this, but I would also leave the door open for the open source design community, since the job was posted after)

there is also another strawman badge at https://op-co.de/tmp/core-client-2019.svg

Ge0rG, were you and Tedd's work in reaction of each-other, somehow?

hmm can't read that font at all

(why do we have two sets? Is one supposed to address something found in the other?)

Guus: I don't think so.

moparisthebest: yes, the badges.io format is using 14px as baseline height, for $reasons

wonder if each "class" like "Core Mobile IM Client" should just have a short-hand version?

let's not have that discussion now

well I can read XMPP just fine, just not the other bit

Can we a) finish both versions, b) put a choice to the members?

Guus: not if we want to await a proper designer to do the job

What if we wait for another week, for a designer to pop up based on that jobposting that you did

+1

then put this to members: version a, version b, or neither and find another designer

fwiw, I'm happy with both proposals

board: is the above acceptable to you?

+1

nyco, seve?

ok

Just thinking

regarding refinement of the existing ones, I'd like to hear opinions on the exact strings to use, maybe after Meeting?

I agree we should make the community participate

yes, kindly take that out of the meeting, Ge0rG

Seve - you were thinking?

Let's move forward, I just feel the badges can be "too much". Ge0rG's proposal, I wonder if that is the final verison, or the badge number is going to be lowered.

I would like to simplify it a bit

but let's wait for a week

and then choose between what we have

ok

4. commitments

4.1 Clarify what happens when a typo (or equivalent) is fixed in a Deferred XEP

This is basically a placeholder for jonas’ I think

Yes

(giving him time to point out that it's already done in case I missed it)

IIRC the suggestion was for Editor to make the change without undeferring the XEP

Yeah, I think jonas’ offered to wordsmith some text for XEP-0001 iirc

we agreed with wording, it's a matter of applying the change to the XEP. Unsure if this needs to be on our agenda any longer, but its a good place to track that we don't forget about it.

lets move on

4.2 Discuss server setup with iteam

as Ralph is not here, I don't think we have anything to discuss regarding this.

4.3 Tigase would like to use the XMPP logo

I thought XEP1 already said that a change to z in x.y.z wasn't a change to undefer.

(But you've moved on)

Ralph left a message saying that he asked Peter. No updates on that yet.

Guus, I don’t think we agreed with wording, at least not to my knowledge.

Nyco, did you let Tigase know that they could use the XMPP logo, and that we'll update them under what exact conditions, as we agreed last week?

(board meetings are typically during my commute home, sorry for the delay)

Isn't the logo CC, same as the rest of the website anyway?

jonas’ no worries. This remark is on the Trello card: "In today's board meeting, Board agrees wiath Jonas' suggested change, and ask the Editor to draft a proposal for the change in XEP-0001."

Kev that's what the general assumption is, but no-one is sure.

Guus yes

Last week, we discussed that it's fine for Tigase to use the logo (and we'd let them know), but that at the same time we should figure out exactly what the licensing model was.

thanks nyco

jonas’ are you happy for us to leave the XEP-0001 clarification with you?

Guus, more or less

I’ll see that I get to it, for real, during the next week

thanks

5. Poll membership for feedback on the creation of an XMPP-related job board

I think we've had all feedback that we're going to get, unless we re-ask.

All that I have seen was moderately positive towards having such a job board in one way or another

and it was all positive iirc

have you had more feedback, Seve ?

We got some feedback, all positive, so that depends if we want to try to push this again and ask for more feedback or we are all good with what he have.

I suggest that we follow up with a more concrete proposal

Good

have a dedicated page on the website, and a PR process to add jobs there?

Would you be willing to establish such a proposal, Seve ?

a clean template with data similar to clients.json, sorted alphabetically by company name

Guus, yes sure. I'm not a fan of PR, I would like to see if we can find another way for that, before sticking to PR.

I would like more people submit jobs, not technical people

not only*

Ok, let's take that out of this meeting too 🙂

Agree

6. AOB?

(I have no)

Not from me

I'm good

None here

7. Date of next meeting

+1W, unless someone strongly objects.

+1, I strongly agree

+1

8. bow and applause.

Thanks!

Thanks guys!

Cool, thank you all!

thx

Yay!

So now back to the badge wording.

I'd like to have the covered suite in the left and the year in the right, but then there is no "XMPP"

Tedd has "XMPP:2019" in the left and the specific suite combo in the right, which also has some merit

Ge0rG I don't think having 'xmpp' in there is a must, as the context in which the badge is used probably implies the reference anyways

I have nothing against including 'xmpp' either, though.

I have a personal, subjective preference, but that's not based on anything more than what I find visually appealing.

I want to hear that

I'd be happy with both

I personally dislike the "+" character that Tedd included.

I like yours slightly more

XMPP Plus

I'd prefer a different character because of "IM+" already being a thing.

mine is lacking the flexibility of core-IM combined with advanced-mobile

so, have two badges?

but maybe we only need the "advanced" prefix if all of the advanced things match

I'm not sure if me discussing this more would have any benefit, to be honest.

Guus: if we are going to combine badges, we can significantly reduce the badge number

I'd put this to the people that are intended to use the badges.

as I said, I'd be happy to use either set.

.

I included some feedback on the new CSS from here and the list as well as implemented a feature I wanted to have myself: https://sotecware.net/files/noindex/xeptest/xep-0390.html

!

((hopefully) fixed contrast of link font, added margins on small screens, and a megafancy toc thing on large screens)

Very nice

https://igniterealtime.org:443/httpfileupload/d2654a25-3bfb-4684-bfc3-36f9218bc4d6/screenshot_2.png

yeah, the revision list is known-bad

kk

margin on mobile is now ok!

thanks for testing! :)

I’ll now go and fix that revision list mess

margin in the dual-pane is a bit thin

Ge0rG, between the panes, or on the leftmost edge?

it should probably be 25% - 75% and not 50-50

jonas’: margin in the right pane

Ge0rG, 25%-75% w.r.t. to what?

jonas’: sorry, mixing two things now.

jonas’: the panes should be split 25/75 and not 50/50

they are not split 50/50

and the right pane doesn't have any meaningful margins

never, actually, what’s your screen size?

this must be some corner case

like always when you report stuff

1920x1080

the splitting triggers at 75em screen width, and the leftmost pane starts out at 15em width, leaving the rest to the right pane

so it’s actually 25/75 by default

when I shrink the window below ~1650, the left pane disappears completely

that’s probably intended

Ge0rG, can you provide a screenshot?

plus the computed width of the body element, if possible?

s/body/html/

jonas’, this looks nice indeed! I wonder if it would be possible (without js) to highlight the chapter in the sidebar depending on where I read on the page?

wurstsalat, I don’t think that’s possible without JS

ok!

https://op-co.de/tmp/panes-50-50.png

jonas’: ^

I did something like that a few weeks back and was unable to find a non-JS solution IIRC

Ge0rG, watcopter

Web.

jonas’: computed width = 1905px

now I get it, thanks

I see what’s going on

phew.

well, not actually

nope, doesn’t make sense

I'm not going to give you remote-debugging on my chromium jewels :D

damnit

https://sotecware.net/images/dont-puush-me/A50KqvthxiViQpe96jbw1PMxJNCgPUWNphvVx6-j3cQ.png

cannotreproduce

font size?

Any news for XEP diff tool?

Neustradamus, no

jonas’: custom->22

jonas’: :'(

(in the chrome prefs)

Neustradamus, go ahead and work on it ;)

I've got bad eyes. No idea how anybody can read 10pt on a 15" full-hd screen.

Ge0rG, that triggers it! thanks

Ge0rG, the typical fix for *that* is /usr/bin/chromium --force-device-scale-factor=1.5 or something

which also fixes all other sizes (not only font size)

jonas’: yay for blurry icons everywhere.

only if the screen is not dense enough ;)

I don’t get how that can even happen

also yay for having to dig into the fugly mess that is chrome cmdline parameters

ah!

I have not rights to do it like: - The year change for a newsletter (2018->2019) - XEP proposal redirections -> XEP - ...

Neustradamus, you have

make a PR against the repository

everybody can do that

jonas’: don't tell Neustradamus to open PRs.

Ge0rG, I find PRs marginally more useful than issues without a description about what’s going on

Ge0rG: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/created_by/Neustradamus I have not access to the webserver: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/421

Neustradamus, it’s all in dockerfiles nowadays

I don’t know in *which* dockerfiles, though

onions everywhere.

About XEP diff tool, all are here no? https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/412

Ge0rG, onions? whales?

Neustradamus, go ahead and work on it?

Ge0rG, I think what’s happening is that: - the @media query to determine the split stuff is based on your browser font size - everything else is not, for whatever reason. at least changing the font size in chromium does not affect the xep at all

which is weird, because I expected yaml to do this right O_o ✏

jonas’: I think redirects are in the top level nginx config actually

Zash, so the xmpp.org dockerfile?

There's a nginx in front of that no?

pep.: maybe Ogers?

There's an nginx in front of it all

Ge0rG, can you confirm that changing the chromium font size does not affect the XEP?

jonas’: confirmed

derp

the first time I’m disappointed in yaml.de

I wonder what the rationale is for that

feels pretty non-accessible to me

annoying users with bad eyes.

like badges.io

yaml wins awards for accessibility

so I doubt that’s the point ;)

you can't make it accessible for *everyone*

ah, I missed a file

that explains it to a certain extent

All xmpp.org servers will be updated/upgraded to the new Debian normally (soon), the World will be better ^^

err

derp

*somebody* set font-size: 12pt in the body

that was probably me

explains all the mess

sorry

Ge0rG, reload please

jonas’: more 30-70 now

acceptable?

also the font size grew a bit

jonas’: I still think we can move the vertical bar more to the left. Also make it movable manually

the latter isn’t possible without massive JS invasion

frames

iframes!

Welcome guys, ok?

rion

I am sorry

fire: здесь только дискуссии протокола xmpp

Don't stop me pleace

Ge0rG, hey man

fire: xmpp:yaxim-ru@chat.yax.im?join ;)

jonas’: how can I search MUCs by language? :>

not

doesn't work.

Bot translater in jabber for me, ok?

Ge0rG, Bot translater in jabber for me, ok?

fire: есть русские каналы. Здесь просто не правильное место для болтовни

Ge0rG, what is true?

Ge0rG, talk me pleace

jonas’: sorry, that doesn't work.

:(

Ge0rG, casual english language room for me, ok?

fire, xmpp:offtopic@chat.disroot.org?join

jonas’, not work

Ge0rG, ^ can you help with that?

jonas’, can i help for you?

jonas’: I don't see how

Why

Ge0rG, unrelated, how’s this splitting-wise? https://sotecware.net/files/noindex/xeptest/xep-0390.html#appendix-revs

jonas’: just perfect

:)

jonas’: now have some JS that highlights the current position in the TOC

later, if ever

I’m not in the mood to touch JS just yet

I’m not in the mood to touch JS. EVER.

jonas’, wow, many read

I’m still trying to figure out a way to get the XEP title or at least number above the TOC without actually having it in the HTML

jonas’: maybe you should ask MattJ for help.

Ge0rG, is MattJ a CSS wizard?

jonas’: no, MattJ is an admin of this MUC :P

ah

different issue, I see

I don't know xmpp standards

jonas’: How far into ugly CSS hackery are you prepared to to go?

Zash, very

jonas’: Try `nav > h2:before { content: "HELLO" }` or someting

Zash, hello dear friend

Zash, yeah, I’m at that point now

I can’t make that part display: block t hough

And is there no existing js that can do the TOC fiddlery?

oh I can, nevermind

Zash, english casual room for me, ok?

fire: This is not the place.

Zash, where are from this place?

fire: I don't understand.

Zash, jid

I don't know

I'm here for XMPP and XMPP accessories.

Zash, and a jid jabber translater eng => rus, rus => eng, ok?

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean.

Zash, bot translater for jabber

I don't know anything about that.

Zash, you lie for me?

When this happens in the Ignite Realtime chatrooms, we usually agree that it must be Dave, trolling.

Smart

https://sotecware.net/files/noindex/xeptest/xep-0390.html now all I wish is that there was a way to make the XMPP logo / xep number clickable and have it jump to the top of the page or something useful like that

Guus, I am not Dave, I am fire

but I don’t think that’s possible without JS (and even then...)

jonas’, not possible without JS? Even if you have an anchor at the top?

pep., the problem is the "make it clickable" part

the logo + xep number don’t exist in the HTML

it’s pure CSS

:before pseudo element hackery

I see

(and there is an accessibility reason why I want to do it that way)

Make the whole h2 block clickable? :-°

hm

Thing I did was to have the ToC at the bottom

that might not even be the worst idea

pep., works good enough :)

yeah, good enough :)

https://upload.yax.im/upload/Rwyzg0onuaq6pDvo/Screenshot_20190404-181425_Firefox.jpg

hmm, is it me or the title is being cropped a bit

pep., screenshot

jonas’: the indentation is a bit much on mobile Firefox

Ge0rG, that XEP is a bit too much on mobile

for portrait mode anyways

but I intended to reduce the ol/ul indent a bit on mobile, yes

(pun not indented)

No understand

jonas’: can you add an indentation to the second and following lines of line broken titles?

Ge0rG, maybe

jonas’, ugh, let me update first (67.0a1 (2019-02-04)). https://ppjet.bouah.net/xep-css.png this is what I see

https://upload.yax.im/upload/nfEVxFc9bIzB8GPE/Screenshot_20190404-181645_Firefox.jpg

pep., I’m on 65.0.1, so ;P

This room for programmist's?

68.0a1 is out already :)

pep., stable <3

I had another fk up with debian stable today, please don't :x

Pep enjoy nick name

jonas’: the hex dump isn't using a fixed width font

jonas’, anyway same result on 68

pep., hm, cannot reproduce here.

but I should add a margin to the top anyways

jonas’: Your CSS almost worked with the xep->markdown->html hack I have

maybe a mix of line-height being small and big font size

I want understand english language

fire, here is not the place

We linked you a few other rooms to join

Ge0rG, https://sotecware.net/images/dont-puush-me/i1_HyFdvZw8e243a6YZzaq5sW6pnt0ZsPLprXz1Yy88.png

like this?

Ge0rG, hexdump uses monospace font here, does it work for you with other examples?

jonas’: like that, yes

Ge0rG, mind that I can’t control the indent in a way which makes it consistent with the length of the leading number, unfortunately

pep., good

pep., where this?

jonas’: yes, I was assuming that.

Ge0rG, reload

pep., reload

jonas’: neither examples nor other pre boxes are mono space on m mobile Firefox

Ge0rG, ah, that I can work with!

Ge0rG, reload

yeah better

jonas’: thanks, fixed now

pep., other rooms have adres?

jonas’, how hard is it to have the anchor leave a tiny bit of space before each section?

margin-top(?)

pep., when jumping to it you mean?

it’s possible with a fun insane trick

yeah

:target ?

fire, xmpp:yaxim-ru@chat.yax.im?join xmpp:offtopic@chat.disroot.org?join

Zash, +margin, yes

pep., thank you

pep., hm, doesn’t really do the trick, thinking about it

I am go to exit

Have I resolved this issue?

jonas’, fine I can deal with this :p

ah, it’s easy

pep., no, we all did that same thing before

We'll see tomorrow

pep., reload

wooo

https://cerdale.zash.se/upload/rLl5vbJj-JwDXxLG/Screenshot_2019-04-04_18-30-15.png

Hmm

weirdest piece of CSS I’ve ever seen: h2:target::before, h3:target::before, h4:target::before, h5:target::before, h6:target::before { content: ""; display: block; height: 1.5rem; margin-top: -1.5rem; }

madness

Zash, what did you do!!k

jonas’: xep-to-markdown rendered with pandoc to html with your css (slightly tweaked)

:D

The default pandoc template has #TOC instead of #toc and CSS is case sensitive??

Ge0rG, I now fixed your landing page example in XEP-0379

Ge0rG, https://sotecware.net/files/noindex/xeptest/xep-0379.html#link_transmission

jonas’, some criticism from colleagues (tech people), they don't really like the orange, in the index, "too close to red and that has a different meaning", they also don't really like the index altogether, I don't know how I feel about it, I definitely see the benefits for navigation. and they also preferred stuff properly separated in the metadata at the top in the previous version of the page

meh, the :target hack breaks the line wrapping thing

pep., can you expand on the metadata-at-the-top part please?

I’m not sold on the colours, obviously

I’m not going to take their opinion on the index, it’s awesome

;)

Kev: I sent you a private message, thanks in advance.

jonas’, the index itself yeah I'd agree. Maybe colors can be slightly tweaked(?)

pep., reload

:D

it’s also less in conflict with the XMPP-blue at the top

jonas’, yeah colors are better like that for the index. As for the metadata, I think the idea is that it was easier to parse the keys in the previous version and read what's in front

Now you have to somewhat go through all of it

pep., how’s this?

Another point they made is that section titles are a lot bigger than the actual text which is weird (you changed the ratio?)

pep., I’m not entirely sure what’s going on there, this broke (changed?) when I included base.css from yaml

I also think that the text font size is too small

but I don’t recall yaml to be as bad normally, so I wanted to dig deeper before taking out the font-size sledgehammer

jonas’: Steal whatever the hack Bootstrap does with definition lists like here: https://prosody.im/doc/developers#utility_apis

Zash, I kinda did, probably, it’s display: grid in my case

jonas’: Oh, I hadn't reloaded

anyways, afk for a while

jonas’, yeah metadata formatting seems better now to me as well, but maybe others will say differently :)

Also tbh the blue at the top is weird. I get it's our colors but meh :/

(that my own opinion)

It is better with the green though indeed

Having one of the colors used in the logo as background for the logo makes it a bit weird

Yeah, the blue bar is weird

also on the todo is "re-use the font from the main website"

pep., Ge0rG, reload

(inspired by the main website)

hm, main website loads font directly from google

yeah black-ish is a lot better to me

jonas’: something in 0390 makes the content a small bit too wide on mobile, causing horizontal scrolling

Hmm, speaking of using the Official XSF Colors, does this look nice https://cerdale.zash.se/upload/DLtZTr_wdX1l95Af/stanza.html ?

fire, xmpp:yaxim-ru@chat.yax.im?join xmpp:offtopic@chat.disroot.org?join Not work for me

yaxim-ru@chat.yax.im offtopic@chat.disroot.org No nick name, no menu, no chat, no connect

How does this work on jimm

How do you join here?

Jid join and connect

fire: what is your XMPP client?

Neustradamus, jimm multi for mobile

What is your plateform?

Android 2.3.6

2.3.6 wat

Jimm is very old yes

platinum CVE edition

Version 2.3.6

Neustradamus, yes

How shit for mamont

What does it look like when you try to join those?

Zash, not function

I can't help with "it doesn't work", sorry.

Ah! Your Android does not support new security points maybe

Maybe

fire, do you have any other device available?

his android isn't connecting to the remote servers

but yea, you should focus on getting that device off the internet ASAP

pep., no

If they can join here, why wouldn't they be able to join those rooms?

What tls version/ciphers do you accept here

Fairly out-of-the-box Prosody settings

fire: "xmpp:" and "?join" are not part of the JID, did you remove those parts?

Have others casual english rooms for me?

Zash, yes, with "xmpp" and "?join" = error 400

What happened?

Why stop talk?

work

food

Tv

jonas’: any chance to get 0412 promoted? And the typo fixed on the way...

oh right

I forgot the vote passed

on it right now

Ge0rG, hm, did it pass though?

I can’t seem to find daves vote

jonas’: it was on list Monday or Tuesday

it didn’t mention 0412 then

oh wait, it’s Kev’s vote I can’t find

there it is

Ge0rG, it was s/412/410/ in that one revision entry, right?

https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2019-April/036028.html

jonas’: exactly

https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2019-April/036015.html

push’d

👍

I think I found the culprit for the horizontal scrolling ...

"Acknowledgements" is simply too long a word

shorten it to "Ack"

if it's good enough for TCP...

;)

Thanks jonas’ for the 0412->0410 change: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0412.html#appendix-revs