XSF Discussion - 2019-04-09


  1. david has left

  2. david has joined

  3. Arc has left

  4. neshtaxmpp has left

  5. neshtaxmpp has joined

  6. waqas has joined

  7. arc has left

  8. arc has joined

  9. 404.city has left

  10. 404.city Support has left

  11. larma has left

  12. lskdjf has left

  13. Wojtek has left

  14. kokonoe has left

  15. kokonoe has joined

  16. Zash has left

  17. Zash has joined

  18. lskdjf has joined

  19. larma has joined

  20. larma has left

  21. lskdjf has left

  22. alacer has joined

  23. alacer has left

  24. alacer has joined

  25. lskdjf has joined

  26. david has left

  27. larma has joined

  28. alacer has left

  29. alacer has joined

  30. david has joined

  31. larma has left

  32. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: SamWhited might know the right people there...

  33. neshtaxmpp has left

  34. lskdjf has left

  35. wurstsalat has left

  36. neshtaxmpp has joined

  37. Nekit has joined

  38. Yagiza has left

  39. Yagiza has joined

  40. larma has joined

  41. Yagiza has left

  42. Yagiza has joined

  43. lskdjf has joined

  44. Yagiza has left

  45. Yagiza has joined

  46. Yagiza has left

  47. Yagiza has joined

  48. Yagiza has left

  49. Yagiza has joined

  50. karoshi has joined

  51. larma has left

  52. lskdjf has left

  53. larma has joined

  54. alacer has left

  55. lskdjf has joined

  56. lorddavidiii has joined

  57. lnj has joined

  58. larma has left

  59. lskdjf has left

  60. rtq3 has left

  61. goffi has joined

  62. Seve

    jonas’, what kind of changes can move a XEP to Deferred state?

  63. Ge0rG

    Seve: no changes for a year

  64. wurstsalat has joined

  65. Seve

    Ge0rG, yes, but can changes in the document move it to Deferred? Just trying to understand the following sentence: "Only substantial, non-editorial changes count as activity (or updates) for the purpose of considering moving a XEP from or to Deferred state." What kind of changes can move a XEP to Deferred?

  66. Ge0rG

    Seve: none

  67. Ge0rG

    Seve: that sounds like an unfortunate wording

  68. ThibG has left

  69. kokonoe has left

  70. kokonoe has joined

  71. Seve

    Ge0rG, thank you, I just wanted to check just in case https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/780/files

  72. neshtaxmpp has left

  73. Ge0rG

    Seve: ah, it actually does have a meaning: editorial changes don't count when checking whether to move *to* Deferred

  74. alacer has joined

  75. neshtaxmpp has joined

  76. lnj has left

  77. alacer has left

  78. alacer has joined

  79. Seve

    Ge0rG: may be too early for me then! I'll check it out later, on my bike. Thank you :)

  80. Ge0rG

    Don't read and drive!

  81. oli has joined

  82. mikaela has joined

  83. APach has joined

  84. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  85. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  86. oli has left

  87. oli has joined

  88. oli has left

  89. oli has joined

  90. andy has joined

  91. mikaela

    > No DoX servers on there yet though :) What is DoX? I thought the X was to denote T/H without typing longly? Oh, DNS over XMPP?

  92. jonas’

    Seve, the point is, editorial changes do *not* count when considering whether to move a XEP to deferred. I.e. if it has received editorial changes (but no substantial, non-editorial changes) over 12 months, it still moves to deferred.

  93. ThibG has joined

  94. blabla has joined

  95. nyco has left

  96. lskdjf has joined

  97. larma has joined

  98. blabla has left

  99. neshtaxmpp has left

  100. lskdjf has left

  101. nyco has joined

  102. mtavares has joined

  103. oli has left

  104. oli has joined

  105. kokonoe has left

  106. blabla has joined

  107. kokonoe has joined

  108. rtq3 has joined

  109. 404.city has joined

  110. 404.city Support has joined

  111. neshtaxmpp has joined

  112. rtq3 has left

  113. lskdjf has joined

  114. Seve

    jonas’, that way is understandable, but I'm not sure if the problem here is my poor English or the wording. I will try to check it again on the evening today and see, because I'm still so-so with the "from or to", but my poor English has many chances to be the problem here :)

  115. larma has left

  116. jonas’

    heh

  117. jonas’

    I can fix the wording either way

  118. jonas’

    please leave a comment on the PR so that I don’t forget

  119. Kev

    For the little it's worth, the wording seems fine to me.

  120. Kev

    Because there are changes from and to deferred, and the type of updates done affects both.

  121. blabla has left

  122. flow

    But isn't question if the wording is fine for people with less knowledge about how the process works. And obviously it already confused people. If it can be improved so that it is easier to understand, then we should

  123. jonas’

    (and I will)

  124. jonas’

    Kev, I’m still not convinced that the things XEP-0001 says about versioning are sufficient to simply refer to that from the text, because it doesn’t at all mention how editorial changes affect versioning, AFAICT

  125. Kev

    Indeed, isn't that the point? That editorial changes are out of scope of the process. They don't need approval, they don't need 'Updated Versions' (in XEP-0001 speak), they don't trigger moves from Deferred, etc.

  126. blabla has joined

  127. flow

    Is it part of the process specification that they don't need approval and stuff?

  128. G0s+ has joined

  129. Kev

    It's part of xep 1 that immaterial changes to Draft don't need approval, yes.

  130. oli has left

  131. oli has joined

  132. vanitasvitae has left

  133. vanitasvitae has joined

  134. nyco has left

  135. nyco has joined

  136. blabla has left

  137. 404.city Support has left

  138. 404.city has left

  139. blabla has joined

  140. larma has joined

  141. waqas has left

  142. Dele Olajide has joined

  143. bowlofeggs has left

  144. bowlofeggs has joined

  145. krauq has left

  146. krauq has joined

  147. igoose has left

  148. jonas’

    Kev, I think it should still be mentioned

  149. rtq3 has joined

  150. igoose has joined

  151. neshtaxmpp has left

  152. lnj has joined

  153. Dele Olajide has left

  154. Dele Olajide has joined

  155. lskdjf has left

  156. Dele Olajide has left

  157. Dele Olajide has joined

  158. blabla has left

  159. Dele Olajide has left

  160. arc has left

  161. arc has joined

  162. Dele Olajide has joined

  163. lskdjf has joined

  164. kokonoe has left

  165. kokonoe has joined

  166. blabla has joined

  167. frainz has left

  168. frainz has joined

  169. arc has left

  170. arc has joined

  171. arc has left

  172. arc has joined

  173. igoose has left

  174. igoose has joined

  175. rtq3 has left

  176. rtq3 has joined

  177. Dele Olajide has left

  178. Dele Olajide has joined

  179. Dele Olajide has left

  180. Dele Olajide has joined

  181. mikaela has left

  182. frainz has left

  183. mikaela has joined

  184. frainz has joined

  185. debacle has joined

  186. Dele Olajide has left

  187. blabla has left

  188. dele has joined

  189. dele has left

  190. dele has joined

  191. dele has left

  192. yvo has joined

  193. Dele Olajide has joined

  194. flow

    moparisthebest, https://github.com/igniterealtime/Smack/commit/62fd897cf7c021b845ce7f4e66b5e04348204975

  195. arc has left

  196. arc has joined

  197. kokonoe has left

  198. kokonoe has joined

  199. arc has left

  200. arc has joined

  201. igoose has left

  202. igoose has joined

  203. mikaela has left

  204. mikaela has joined

  205. lorddavidiii has left

  206. larma has left

  207. yvo has left

  208. lorddavidiii has joined

  209. yvo has joined

  210. larma has joined

  211. Andrew Nenakhov

    Did anyone try Matrix's Jitsi videoconferences? Do they even work?

  212. Andrew Nenakhov

    Browser is just endlessly loading up Jitsi widget, then shows unpressable button "join conference"

  213. pep.

    Maybe ask in a matrix channel?

  214. Andrew Nenakhov

    It is impolite to ask fanboys if their crap even works )))

  215. blabla has joined

  216. Andrew Nenakhov

    Ok, it's definitely broken.

  217. goffi

    https://medium.com/miquido/successful-migration-to-a-custom-xmpp-solution-76fcdecb0928

  218. Seve

    Hey goffi thanks for sharing! Will take a look later

  219. valo has left

  220. rtq3 has left

  221. valo has joined

  222. rtq3 has joined

  223. goffi

    they use a mongoseIM and a custom inbox feature (cf. https://mongooseim.readthedocs.io/en/latest/modules/mod_inbox/)

  224. rtq3 has left

  225. mtavares has left

  226. rtq3 has joined

  227. lorddavidiii has left

  228. kokonoe has left

  229. kokonoe has joined

  230. neshtaxmpp has joined

  231. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  232. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  233. lorddavidiii has joined

  234. moparisthebest

    flow: very nice!

  235. Neustradamus

    flow: Have you possibility to add SCRAM-SHA-256(-PLUS) in Smack too?

  236. flow

    Neustradamus, yes, but not a priority

  237. Neustradamus

    Because a lot of softwares use Smack and for have a full compatibility with "New generation" servers

  238. Neustradamus

    Tigase, Jackal, Metronome IM already ready.

  239. Neustradamus

    Openfire wait Smack I think ^^

  240. Neustradamus

    Ejabberd had all informations for add support.

  241. yvo has left

  242. yvo has joined

  243. larma has left

  244. larma has joined

  245. lorddavidiii has left

  246. lorddavidiii has joined

  247. 404.city has joined

  248. 404.city Support has joined

  249. jubalh has joined

  250. oli has left

  251. oli has joined

  252. rtq3 has left

  253. rtq3 has joined

  254. jubalh has left

  255. flow

    Can anyone tell why service discovery was removed from xep203?

  256. moparisthebest

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0203.html#revision-history-v0.3 I guess look up council logs from around 2007-03-28 ?

  257. Zash

    wat

  258. Zash

    https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/council/2007-March/002051.html

  259. Zash

    > 8. XEP-0203: Delayed Delivery > Issue Last Call? > No objections. Peter to add section on service discovery.

  260. Zash

    https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/council/2007-March/002058.html

  261. Zash

    Oh, here https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/council/2007-March/002057.html

  262. Zash

    > Ralph -1 pending removal of service discovery section. Peter to remove and publish version 0.3.

  263. Zash

    So, ask if ralphm remembers what the reasoning was

  264. ralphm

    Let me think.

  265. neshtaxmpp has left

  266. alacer has left

  267. alacer has joined

  268. ralphm

    I'd have to look at the diffs and discussion logs.

  269. wurstsalat has left

  270. Zash

    Doesn't seem to be any logs from 2007 in the current archive tho

  271. ralphm

    Doesn't mean I don't have them.

  272. Zash

    I would guess that it makes sense to just always stamp on delay since the receiver should ignore what they don't understand

  273. ralphm

    Maybe also because it is a format that can also be at a different level than as the child of a stanza.

  274. ralphm

    I'll look into it later, when back home

  275. neshtaxmpp has joined

  276. alacer has left

  277. lskdjf has left

  278. ralphm

    Still remote, but seems the log files at logs.jabber.org have 404'd since 2007, though there was always an index. Maybe intosi or Kev can comment on this.

  279. typikol has joined

  280. flow

    > Zash> I would guess that it makes sense to just always stamp on delay since the receiver should ignore what they don't understand

  281. flow

    then we should rename it to timestamps

  282. wurstsalat has joined

  283. Zash

    When *delayed*, not always

  284. flow

    but then I need to check if my service would add <delayed/> by doing disco, no?

  285. flow

    background is https://medium.com/p/48806d283e6e/info

  286. Zash

    You know who did it by looking at the @from attribute

  287. larma has left

  288. Zash

    It seems sevral people seem to want to use delayed delivery for a generic timestamp thing. I think you need a new XEP with different semantics for that.

  289. flow

    I receive a message stanza, how do I know if it got delayed or not? If there is no <delay/> tag on it then it may also because the service does not add them at all

  290. alameyo has left

  291. alameyo has joined

  292. typikol has left

  293. Zash

    Well then you don't know.

  294. neshtaxmpp has left

  295. moparisthebest

    service discovery doesn't change that does it?

  296. APach has left

  297. flow

    moparisthebest, if the service announces the feature and if it is specified that it will add <delay/> if it does so

  298. flow

    I always felt that it would have been better if we hand't done <delay/> but <timestamp/>

  299. flow

    akin to what you'll find in your mail headers

  300. moparisthebest

    so you are trying to distinguish between "server announces delay but not marked delayed so it definitly wasn't delayed" and "maybe it was delayed maybe it was not" ?

  301. andy has left

  302. flow

    moparisthebest, yep

  303. Zash

    Why haven't you submitted a XEP about it?

  304. Zash

    You mean like trace headers, ie Received?

  305. moparisthebest

    I wouldn't advise showing "maybe it was delayed maybe not" to users, that kind of thing would anger them

  306. moparisthebest

    "XMPP sucks, can't even tell if it was delayed or not"

  307. Zash

    INSTANT MESSAGING

  308. flow

    Zash, yes, like 'Received', I always expected that such a XEP does not has a chance of getting accepted

  309. moparisthebest

    I think it'd be better to always assume not delayed, then if a user complains, blame it on their network connection :D

  310. flow

    but I would possibly try anyway

  311. Zash

    flow: I want the part where it records the security status of the connection it received from

  312. moparisthebest

    so a "I promise it was encrypted but may be lying" element Zash ?

  313. flow

    Zash, good point, so we could sneak in timestamp by a generic "trace" extension xep

  314. alameyo has left

  315. flow

    which also records more metadata about the connection the stanza was received

  316. moparisthebest

    isn't e2e vastly superior there, aka "I promise was encrypted via this cryptographic proof"

  317. flow

    moparisthebest, depends on your goal

  318. flow

    it is mostly interestant for statistic and debug use cases, but not for protection/security

  319. flow

    *interesting

  320. Zash

    moparisthebest: It would be for debugging primarily, which also means it probably doesn't need to go on every stanza

  321. Zash

    Could go on a modified ping of some sort

  322. flow

    meh, but I want my timestamps on every stanza

  323. Zash

    flow: Take 203, reword the semantics, submit, ???, PROFIT!

  324. flow

    but the ping thing is interesting, that way you could record the stream information of every involved stream in both directions

  325. Zash

    Also, I'd wanna be careful with stuff that's added on every stanza

  326. flow

    true, but there is a need for timestamps and xep203 commonly gets misunderstood by people https://medium.com/@les92raf/oh-i-get-that-right-xep-0203-can-serve-as-timestamp-xep-cb20020e8104

  327. flow

    but maybe re-adding disco to xep203 and explicitly pointing out the use-case as "timestamp XEP" is sufficient

  328. Zash

    <time stamp="xep82" [ by="jid" ] />

  329. Zash

    But semaaaaaantics

  330. Dele Olajide has left

  331. flow

    Zash, how about an (optional) 'from'?

  332. Zash

    flow: ?

  333. flow

    <time stamp="xep82" [ by="jid" ] [ from="jid" ] />

  334. Zash

    flow: Isn't it already?

  335. Zash

    by==from

  336. Zash

    or wat

  337. Dele Olajide has joined

  338. flow

    isn't by the entity that adds the stamp?

  339. Zash

    flow: That's what I meant. What do you mean by from?

  340. Zash

    @from looks like an accomodation for legacy entity time things

  341. flow

    Zash, I would record the xmpp address of the entity from which the stanzas was received in the 'from' attribute

  342. flow

    again, think of mail's 'Recveived' header

  343. Zash

    flow: For the trace path use case? That makes more sense

  344. Zash

    Altho it might be redundant?

  345. Zash

    Also privacy considerations

  346. flow

    dunno, yes, I could also go on with <time/> without 'from'

  347. flow

    privacy considerations?

  348. Zash

    Leaking sender JID trough semi-anon MUCs and the like

  349. flow

    right

  350. Zash

    If <time stamp="xep82"> means the timestamp that the original client sent it it then it makes sense

  351. neshtaxmpp has joined

  352. Dele Olajide has left

  353. Dele Olajide has joined

  354. Dele Olajide has left

  355. Dele Olajide has joined

  356. mimi89999 has left

  357. Dele Olajide has left

  358. Dele Olajide has joined

  359. Dele Olajide has left

  360. Dele Olajide has joined

  361. mimi89999 has joined

  362. alameyo has joined

  363. Zash

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0203.xml is 404, what's with that?

  364. neshtaxmpp has left

  365. pep.

    I think that was mentioned already last week or this weekend

  366. pep.

    (but I don't remember)

  367. Dele Olajide has left

  368. Dele Olajide has joined

  369. Zash

    I FIX

  370. Dele Olajide has left

  371. alameyo has left

  372. alameyo has joined

  373. alameyo has left

  374. rtq3 has left

  375. Dele Olajide has joined

  376. rtq3 has joined

  377. Dele Olajide has left

  378. Dele Olajide has joined

  379. Dele Olajide has left

  380. Dele Olajide has joined

  381. david has left

  382. david has joined

  383. Dele Olajide has left

  384. Dele Olajide has joined

  385. Dele Olajide has left

  386. Dele Olajide has joined

  387. Dele Olajide has left

  388. Dele Olajide has joined

  389. kokonoe has left

  390. APach has joined

  391. Dele Olajide has left

  392. Dele Olajide has joined

  393. Dele Olajide has left

  394. wurstsalat has left

  395. Dele Olajide has joined

  396. alameyo has joined

  397. mikaela has left

  398. mikaela has joined

  399. G0s+ has left

  400. Dele Olajide has left

  401. Dele Olajide has joined

  402. Nekit has left

  403. Nekit has joined

  404. lovetox has joined

  405. alameyo has left

  406. alameyo has joined

  407. alameyo has left

  408. Dele Olajide has left

  409. Dele Olajide has joined

  410. wurstsalat has joined

  411. Dele Olajide has left

  412. Dele Olajide has joined

  413. Dele Olajide has left

  414. jonas’

    any chance to un-break this link? http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2018-07-05/#14:03:32

  415. Zash

    MMmmmm, if it's 404 it's likely among the files that were corrupted in the crash

  416. jonas’

    the recent one?

  417. jonas’

    because that’s after The Big Server Crash

  418. Zash

    Oh

  419. Zash

    The trailing /

  420. jonas’

    timestamp anchor doesn’t work though

  421. Zash

    Those were not unique

  422. jonas’

    meh

  423. Zash

    Not sure why it didn't use them in the conversion tho

  424. Zash

    jonas’: Feeling up to some homegrown HTML template hackery?

  425. jonas’

    probably not

  426. jonas’

    I already parsed ldif in sed today, I think that’s enough

  427. Zash

    -- FIXME In the year, 105105, if MUC is still alive, -- if Prosody can survive... Enjoy this Y10k bug

  428. Zash

    jonas’: There's a semantic difference between foo and foo/ and it irks me

  429. Dele Olajide has joined

  430. Zash

    It's trying very hard to make something/ always be listings and something/foo be content

  431. Zash

    jonas’: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2018-07-05/#14:03:32 works now?

  432. jonas’

    \o/ thank you :)

  433. jonas’

    since when do you have +w on that machine? good to know :>

  434. Zash

    Prosody stuff

  435. Zash

    Fixed the logs page to work with the Prosody version in use now.

  436. alameyo has joined

  437. Dele Olajide has left

  438. neshtaxmpp has joined

  439. lorddavidiii has left

  440. david has left

  441. david has joined

  442. yvo has left

  443. alameyo has left

  444. alameyo has joined

  445. alameyo has left

  446. alameyo has joined

  447. alameyo has left

  448. alameyo has joined

  449. frainz has left

  450. frainz has joined

  451. G0s+ has joined

  452. alameyo has left

  453. Nekit has left

  454. Nekit has joined

  455. alacer has joined

  456. mikaela has left

  457. alameyo has joined

  458. Arc has joined

  459. Arc

    GSoC is down to 37 minutes for applications

  460. rtq3 has left

  461. rtq3 has joined

  462. jonas’

    Guus, ha, now that you’re around, please be notified that I made a card in the board trello, I hope I made it in the right place

  463. Seve checks

  464. jonas’

    oh right, seve too :)

  465. Guus

    I'm on mobile, hard to check

  466. Guus

    But if it's on the board somewhere, we will find it

  467. jonas’

    good :)

  468. mikaela has joined

  469. jonas’

    it’s right on the top left, firts thing in agenda items

  470. Seve

    jonas’, ahh I didn't find it hah :D I moved to Itemos for discussion, since this is what we use currently

  471. Seve

    jonas’, thank you very much!!

  472. alameyo has left

  473. alameyo has joined

  474. jonas’

    my last memory of it was that the leftmost column served as "inbox" and board would assign it to wherever. thanks Seve

  475. alameyo has left

  476. Seve

    Whatever works :)

  477. david has left

  478. waqas has joined

  479. waqas has left

  480. alacer has left

  481. alacer has joined

  482. lumi has joined

  483. alameyo has joined

  484. alameyo has left

  485. alameyo has joined

  486. 404.city Support has left

  487. debacle has left

  488. 404.city has left

  489. lorddavidiii has joined

  490. alameyo has left

  491. Tobias has left

  492. Tobias has joined

  493. alameyo has joined

  494. 404.city has joined

  495. 404.city Support has joined

  496. debacle has joined

  497. flow

    Zash, does that come close to your xmpp traceroute vision: http://geekplace.eu/xeps/xep-traceroute/xep-traceroute.html ?

  498. Zash

    In a 199 ping?

  499. david has joined

  500. flow

    Zash, that's mostly a "what if"

  501. flow

    the ping recipient probably won't do the right thing, so we need a custom IQ anyways

  502. flow

    …probably i think. I wondered if we could design something like that which does not require support from the recipient

  503. Zash

    And things adding stuff to IQ stanzas along the way is a bit weird

  504. flow

    true, message is also an option of course

  505. alameyo has left

  506. Yagiza has left

  507. alameyo has joined

  508. blabla has left

  509. blabla has joined

  510. Zash

    flow: OF if everything along the way supports it then it doesn't matter

  511. jubalh has joined

  512. waqas has joined

  513. waqas has left

  514. waqas has joined

  515. Dele Olajide has joined

  516. Dele Olajide has left

  517. Dele Olajide has joined

  518. lorddavidiii has left

  519. flow

    Zash, which stanza type to use?

  520. Zash

    Dunno

  521. waqas has left

  522. mtavares has joined

  523. Alex has left

  524. Dele Olajide has left

  525. jubalh has left

  526. Dele Olajide has joined

  527. lorddavidiii has joined

  528. kokonoe has joined

  529. kokonoe has left

  530. Wojtek has joined

  531. lorddavidiii has left

  532. goffi has left

  533. lorddavidiii has joined

  534. mikaela has left

  535. yvo has joined

  536. kokonoe has joined

  537. Alex has joined

  538. rion has left

  539. lorddavidiii has left

  540. lnj has left

  541. oli has left

  542. Dele Olajide has left

  543. mimi89999 has left

  544. mimi89999 has joined

  545. mtavares has left

  546. G0s+ has left

  547. waqas has joined

  548. ThibG has left

  549. ThibG has joined

  550. igoose has left

  551. igoose has joined

  552. wurstsalat has left

  553. david has left

  554. jubalh has joined

  555. lovetox has left

  556. larma has joined

  557. kokonoe has left

  558. larma has left

  559. kokonoe has joined

  560. larma has joined

  561. Arc has left

  562. moparisthebest has left

  563. moparisthebest has joined

  564. karoshi has left

  565. jubalh has left

  566. rtq3 has left

  567. rtq3 has joined

  568. rtq3 has left

  569. rtq3 has joined

  570. rtq3 has left

  571. rtq3 has joined

  572. Zash has left

  573. Nekit has left

  574. waqas has left

  575. lskdjf has joined

  576. rtq3 has left

  577. kokonoe has left

  578. debacle has left

  579. Zash has joined

  580. kokonoe has joined

  581. UsL has left

  582. UsL has joined

  583. Zash has left

  584. Zash has joined

  585. lskdjf has left

  586. lskdjf has joined

  587. Zash has left

  588. Zash has joined

  589. david has joined