XSF Discussion - 2019-04-09

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  32. Ge0rG moparisthebest: SamWhited might know the right people there...
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  62. Seve jonas’, what kind of changes can move a XEP to Deferred state?
  63. Ge0rG Seve: no changes for a year
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  65. Seve Ge0rG, yes, but can changes in the document move it to Deferred? Just trying to understand the following sentence: "Only substantial, non-editorial changes count as activity (or updates) for the purpose of considering moving a XEP from or to Deferred state." What kind of changes can move a XEP to Deferred?
  66. Ge0rG Seve: none
  67. Ge0rG Seve: that sounds like an unfortunate wording
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  71. Seve Ge0rG, thank you, I just wanted to check just in case https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/780/files
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  73. Ge0rG Seve: ah, it actually does have a meaning: editorial changes don't count when checking whether to move *to* Deferred
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  79. Seve Ge0rG: may be too early for me then! I'll check it out later, on my bike. Thank you :)
  80. Ge0rG Don't read and drive!
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  91. mikaela > No DoX servers on there yet though :) What is DoX? I thought the X was to denote T/H without typing longly? Oh, DNS over XMPP?
  92. jonas’ Seve, the point is, editorial changes do *not* count when considering whether to move a XEP to deferred. I.e. if it has received editorial changes (but no substantial, non-editorial changes) over 12 months, it still moves to deferred.
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  114. Seve jonas’, that way is understandable, but I'm not sure if the problem here is my poor English or the wording. I will try to check it again on the evening today and see, because I'm still so-so with the "from or to", but my poor English has many chances to be the problem here :)
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  116. jonas’ heh
  117. jonas’ I can fix the wording either way
  118. jonas’ please leave a comment on the PR so that I don’t forget
  119. Kev For the little it's worth, the wording seems fine to me.
  120. Kev Because there are changes from and to deferred, and the type of updates done affects both.
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  122. flow But isn't question if the wording is fine for people with less knowledge about how the process works. And obviously it already confused people. If it can be improved so that it is easier to understand, then we should
  123. jonas’ (and I will)
  124. jonas’ Kev, I’m still not convinced that the things XEP-0001 says about versioning are sufficient to simply refer to that from the text, because it doesn’t at all mention how editorial changes affect versioning, AFAICT
  125. Kev Indeed, isn't that the point? That editorial changes are out of scope of the process. They don't need approval, they don't need 'Updated Versions' (in XEP-0001 speak), they don't trigger moves from Deferred, etc.
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  127. flow Is it part of the process specification that they don't need approval and stuff?
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  129. Kev It's part of xep 1 that immaterial changes to Draft don't need approval, yes.
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  148. jonas’ Kev, I think it should still be mentioned
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  194. flow moparisthebest, https://github.com/igniterealtime/Smack/commit/62fd897cf7c021b845ce7f4e66b5e04348204975
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  211. Andrew Nenakhov Did anyone try Matrix's Jitsi videoconferences? Do they even work?
  212. Andrew Nenakhov Browser is just endlessly loading up Jitsi widget, then shows unpressable button "join conference"
  213. pep. Maybe ask in a matrix channel?
  214. Andrew Nenakhov It is impolite to ask fanboys if their crap even works )))
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  216. Andrew Nenakhov Ok, it's definitely broken.
  217. goffi https://medium.com/miquido/successful-migration-to-a-custom-xmpp-solution-76fcdecb0928
  218. Seve Hey goffi thanks for sharing! Will take a look later
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  223. goffi they use a mongoseIM and a custom inbox feature (cf. https://mongooseim.readthedocs.io/en/latest/modules/mod_inbox/)
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  234. moparisthebest flow: very nice!
  235. Neustradamus flow: Have you possibility to add SCRAM-SHA-256(-PLUS) in Smack too?
  236. flow Neustradamus, yes, but not a priority
  237. Neustradamus Because a lot of softwares use Smack and for have a full compatibility with "New generation" servers
  238. Neustradamus Tigase, Jackal, Metronome IM already ready.
  239. Neustradamus Openfire wait Smack I think ^^
  240. Neustradamus Ejabberd had all informations for add support.
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  255. flow Can anyone tell why service discovery was removed from xep203?
  256. moparisthebest https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0203.html#revision-history-v0.3 I guess look up council logs from around 2007-03-28 ?
  257. Zash wat
  258. Zash https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/council/2007-March/002051.html
  259. Zash > 8. XEP-0203: Delayed Delivery > Issue Last Call? > No objections. Peter to add section on service discovery.
  260. Zash https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/council/2007-March/002058.html
  261. Zash Oh, here https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/council/2007-March/002057.html
  262. Zash > Ralph -1 pending removal of service discovery section. Peter to remove and publish version 0.3.
  263. Zash So, ask if ralphm remembers what the reasoning was
  264. ralphm Let me think.
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  268. ralphm I'd have to look at the diffs and discussion logs.
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  270. Zash Doesn't seem to be any logs from 2007 in the current archive tho
  271. ralphm Doesn't mean I don't have them.
  272. Zash I would guess that it makes sense to just always stamp on delay since the receiver should ignore what they don't understand
  273. ralphm Maybe also because it is a format that can also be at a different level than as the child of a stanza.
  274. ralphm I'll look into it later, when back home
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  278. ralphm Still remote, but seems the log files at logs.jabber.org have 404'd since 2007, though there was always an index. Maybe intosi or Kev can comment on this.
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  280. flow > Zash> I would guess that it makes sense to just always stamp on delay since the receiver should ignore what they don't understand
  281. flow then we should rename it to timestamps
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  283. Zash When *delayed*, not always
  284. flow but then I need to check if my service would add <delayed/> by doing disco, no?
  285. flow background is https://medium.com/p/48806d283e6e/info
  286. Zash You know who did it by looking at the @from attribute
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  288. Zash It seems sevral people seem to want to use delayed delivery for a generic timestamp thing. I think you need a new XEP with different semantics for that.
  289. flow I receive a message stanza, how do I know if it got delayed or not? If there is no <delay/> tag on it then it may also because the service does not add them at all
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  293. Zash Well then you don't know.
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  295. moparisthebest service discovery doesn't change that does it?
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  297. flow moparisthebest, if the service announces the feature and if it is specified that it will add <delay/> if it does so
  298. flow I always felt that it would have been better if we hand't done <delay/> but <timestamp/>
  299. flow akin to what you'll find in your mail headers
  300. moparisthebest so you are trying to distinguish between "server announces delay but not marked delayed so it definitly wasn't delayed" and "maybe it was delayed maybe it was not" ?
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  302. flow moparisthebest, yep
  303. Zash Why haven't you submitted a XEP about it?
  304. Zash You mean like trace headers, ie Received?
  305. moparisthebest I wouldn't advise showing "maybe it was delayed maybe not" to users, that kind of thing would anger them
  306. moparisthebest "XMPP sucks, can't even tell if it was delayed or not"
  308. flow Zash, yes, like 'Received', I always expected that such a XEP does not has a chance of getting accepted
  309. moparisthebest I think it'd be better to always assume not delayed, then if a user complains, blame it on their network connection :D
  310. flow but I would possibly try anyway
  311. Zash flow: I want the part where it records the security status of the connection it received from
  312. moparisthebest so a "I promise it was encrypted but may be lying" element Zash ?
  313. flow Zash, good point, so we could sneak in timestamp by a generic "trace" extension xep
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  315. flow which also records more metadata about the connection the stanza was received
  316. moparisthebest isn't e2e vastly superior there, aka "I promise was encrypted via this cryptographic proof"
  317. flow moparisthebest, depends on your goal
  318. flow it is mostly interestant for statistic and debug use cases, but not for protection/security
  319. flow *interesting
  320. Zash moparisthebest: It would be for debugging primarily, which also means it probably doesn't need to go on every stanza
  321. Zash Could go on a modified ping of some sort
  322. flow meh, but I want my timestamps on every stanza
  323. Zash flow: Take 203, reword the semantics, submit, ???, PROFIT!
  324. flow but the ping thing is interesting, that way you could record the stream information of every involved stream in both directions
  325. Zash Also, I'd wanna be careful with stuff that's added on every stanza
  326. flow true, but there is a need for timestamps and xep203 commonly gets misunderstood by people https://medium.com/@les92raf/oh-i-get-that-right-xep-0203-can-serve-as-timestamp-xep-cb20020e8104
  327. flow but maybe re-adding disco to xep203 and explicitly pointing out the use-case as "timestamp XEP" is sufficient
  328. Zash <time stamp="xep82" [ by="jid" ] />
  329. Zash But semaaaaaantics
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  331. flow Zash, how about an (optional) 'from'?
  332. Zash flow: ?
  333. flow <time stamp="xep82" [ by="jid" ] [ from="jid" ] />
  334. Zash flow: Isn't it already?
  335. Zash by==from
  336. Zash or wat
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  338. flow isn't by the entity that adds the stamp?
  339. Zash flow: That's what I meant. What do you mean by from?
  340. Zash @from looks like an accomodation for legacy entity time things
  341. flow Zash, I would record the xmpp address of the entity from which the stanzas was received in the 'from' attribute
  342. flow again, think of mail's 'Recveived' header
  343. Zash flow: For the trace path use case? That makes more sense
  344. Zash Altho it might be redundant?
  345. Zash Also privacy considerations
  346. flow dunno, yes, I could also go on with <time/> without 'from'
  347. flow privacy considerations?
  348. Zash Leaking sender JID trough semi-anon MUCs and the like
  349. flow right
  350. Zash If <time stamp="xep82"> means the timestamp that the original client sent it it then it makes sense
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  363. Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0203.xml is 404, what's with that?
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  365. pep. I think that was mentioned already last week or this weekend
  366. pep. (but I don't remember)
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  369. Zash I FIX
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  414. jonas’ any chance to un-break this link? http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2018-07-05/#14:03:32
  415. Zash MMmmmm, if it's 404 it's likely among the files that were corrupted in the crash
  416. jonas’ the recent one?
  417. jonas’ because that’s after The Big Server Crash
  418. Zash Oh
  419. Zash The trailing /
  420. jonas’ timestamp anchor doesn’t work though
  421. Zash Those were not unique
  422. jonas’ meh
  423. Zash Not sure why it didn't use them in the conversion tho
  424. Zash jonas’: Feeling up to some homegrown HTML template hackery?
  425. jonas’ probably not
  426. jonas’ I already parsed ldif in sed today, I think that’s enough
  427. Zash -- FIXME In the year, 105105, if MUC is still alive, -- if Prosody can survive... Enjoy this Y10k bug
  428. Zash jonas’: There's a semantic difference between foo and foo/ and it irks me
  429. Dele Olajide has joined
  430. Zash It's trying very hard to make something/ always be listings and something/foo be content
  431. Zash jonas’: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2018-07-05/#14:03:32 works now?
  432. jonas’ \o/ thank you :)
  433. jonas’ since when do you have +w on that machine? good to know :>
  434. Zash Prosody stuff
  435. Zash Fixed the logs page to work with the Prosody version in use now.
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  459. Arc GSoC is down to 37 minutes for applications
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  462. jonas’ Guus, ha, now that you’re around, please be notified that I made a card in the board trello, I hope I made it in the right place
  463. Seve checks
  464. jonas’ oh right, seve too :)
  465. Guus I'm on mobile, hard to check
  466. Guus But if it's on the board somewhere, we will find it
  467. jonas’ good :)
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  469. jonas’ it’s right on the top left, firts thing in agenda items
  470. Seve jonas’, ahh I didn't find it hah :D I moved to Itemos for discussion, since this is what we use currently
  471. Seve jonas’, thank you very much!!
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  474. jonas’ my last memory of it was that the leftmost column served as "inbox" and board would assign it to wherever. thanks Seve
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  476. Seve Whatever works :)
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  497. flow Zash, does that come close to your xmpp traceroute vision: http://geekplace.eu/xeps/xep-traceroute/xep-traceroute.html ?
  498. Zash In a 199 ping?
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  500. flow Zash, that's mostly a "what if"
  501. flow the ping recipient probably won't do the right thing, so we need a custom IQ anyways
  502. flow …probably i think. I wondered if we could design something like that which does not require support from the recipient
  503. Zash And things adding stuff to IQ stanzas along the way is a bit weird
  504. flow true, message is also an option of course
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  510. Zash flow: OF if everything along the way supports it then it doesn't matter
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  519. flow Zash, which stanza type to use?
  520. Zash Dunno
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