XSF Discussion - 2019-04-10

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  73. jonas’ flow, I suggest message
  74. jonas’ you could make use of errors with error type='continue' along the way to introduce the traceroute-like backscatter...
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  83. flow jonas’, yep, that was one reason to use IQ in the first place, but as IQ has no advantage over message with the correct type, I now also lean towards using message
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  86. jonas’ although I don’t see too much harm with modifying an IQ in-flight in a well-specified manner. however, that requires some type of support in the recipient when scattering it back.
  87. jonas’ implementing the backscatter with error stanzas sent by the hops themselves might be nicer
  88. jonas’ hm
  89. jonas’ IQ has the advantage that the recipient will send you back at least service-unavailable
  90. jonas’ so you know when to stop to listen for backscatter
  91. jonas’ which makes me tend slightly towards IQ
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  95. Ge0rG I'm not sure what the use case is, but having a generic stanza payload element that tells the server to send back a dedicated message with the annotation sounds like a more reasonable approach to me
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  97. Ge0rG What if you never receive the actual pong?
  98. Ge0rG All trace route info is lost tung
  99. Ge0rG Then
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  106. flow Ge0rG: What if you mostly receive the response, either in form of a pong or of an error type stanza?
  107. flow jonas’, isn't there a message type where an intermediate hop will send an error back, ideally with the full payload, in case the stanza can't be routed?
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  111. jonas’ flow, not built-in
  112. Ge0rG flow: what if you want to debug _why_ you don't receive a given response?
  113. flow jonas’, groupchat maybe?
  114. jonas’ flow, no
  115. flow Ge0rG, then I could still go the traceroute approach and proceed with the next closest hop in case of no response
  116. Ge0rG flow: oh wait. you can just send three ping IQs to all the hops!
  117. jonas’ flow, how would you know the next-closest hop?
  118. Ge0rG it's xmpp! it's got a fixed routing structure.
  119. Ge0rG my full jid -> my domain jid -> their domain jid -> their bare jid -> their full jid
  120. flow jonas’, ahh right there is a case where groupchat does not trigger an error respone: RFC 6120 §
  121. jonas’ Ge0rG, metre? :)
  122. jonas’ Ge0rG, components?
  123. Ge0rG jonas’: how do you obtain traceroute results from a thing without a JID?
  124. jonas’ it could have a JID, but not the one you expect
  125. jonas’ In theory, I could assign my metre-like thing a JID for management/monitoring purposes, and that could be the JID which replies
  126. flow jonas’, both approaches have their advantage and disadvantage. I would lean towards the initial one, but that doesn't mean that we could also do the other one, i.e., by having an extra flag which indicates that intermediate hops send their data right away
  127. jonas’ is there any reason for intermediate hops to *not* send their data right away?
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  129. flow well if everything works according to the standard then they don't need do
  130. jonas’ that’s wrong
  131. jonas’ a recipient is not required to mirror the payload in an error message if it doesn’t understand it
  132. jonas’ it is a MAY or a SHOULD, but not a MUST
  133. jonas’ so if your final recipient does not understand the IQ based protocol, you won’t see the intermediate hops
  134. jonas’ which is meh
  135. Ge0rG > well if everything works according to the standard then they don't need do well if everything works according to the standard then you don't need traceroute
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  147. flow Ge0rG, I don't think I would conclude that
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  149. flow jonas’, that is also true mostly for the message based protocol
  150. jonas’ flow, which is why I’m leaning towards IQ and backscatter with type='error' type='continue'
  151. flow jonas’, yeah that is a strong argument for IQ
  152. dwd "matrix.org is not recognised by the IETF as an Open Standards body" - https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/art/EjDTW6KhrOYebVS8SGsZh7BEE9g
  153. flow I am probably going to switch xep-traceroute from <ping/> to a custom IQ
  154. dwd FWIW, I have no idea what Metre would do in terms of a traceroute thing. It's intentionally invisible, beyond testing cases.
  155. Ge0rG flow: your proposal lacks a rationale so I can't say what you need it for when everything works
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  159. flow I don't think I proposed something. But besides that, there is a short and possible incomplete note in the introduction.
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  161. Ge0rG So what is it needed for when everything works?
  162. flow You probably shouldn't use something like traceroute to test if a channel to a remote entity is encrypted. But it sure would be nice, and if it is just to satisfy my and possible other people's curiosity about how the channel may look
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  165. Ge0rG Is it possible to have asymmetric paths in XMPP?
  166. Ge0rG jonas’: btw, responding from an "unexpected" JID most probably won't work because you need to s2s auth that domain first
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  171. dwd Ge0rG, With Metre and stuff like it, anything's possible.
  172. jonas’ Ge0rG, what stops such a thing from actually having that JID available via s2s?
  173. jonas’ e.g. gateway.company.example, could easily have s2s records :)
  174. Ge0rG jonas’: most probably: nobody testing for it
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  185. dwd jonas’, One thing that stops it is that nobody would want to expose such infrastrcture without good reason.
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  191. Ge0rG That, too. Nobody wants to expose themselves to xml deserialization.
  192. Ge0rG Oh. Wait.
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  220. Zash dwd: What is an "Internet Standards body"? Those exact words are not in the RFC referenced?
  221. Guus completely off-topic, but this is the channel with most French nationals that I know of - is a company named AYOMI legit? Seems to be a crowd-funding platform, but Gmail warns about phishing.
  222. Zash dwd: What is an "Open Standards body"? Those exact words are not in the RFC referenced?
  223. dwd Zash, No idea. It just amused me. The XSF *is* considered an Open Standards Body, as far as I can tell, because otherwise we wouldn't have got "urn:xmpp:"
  224. Zash https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2026#section-7 I assume
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  227. neshtaxmpp someoone receive my photo
  228. neshtaxmpp https://bgzashtita.es/upload/2648c95f187eff879a53c9890338a1a8d74210e6/5K0I4twyQ0gldJzYDaGx1guJq9vj23dsGsRMeIJm/20190410_145407.jpg
  229. Zash Is this relevant to XMPP standards?
  230. Guus I see the picture.
  231. neshtaxmpp Guus, thank... disroot didn;t see it.
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  237. edhelas is is possible to bridge SIP and XMPP ?
  238. Zash Probably
  239. Zash Also see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7573
  240. dwd edhelas, Do you mean bridging SIP and Jingle, or SIMPLE and XMPP-IM?
  241. edhelas both actually
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  243. edhelas maybe the SIMPLE/XMPP-IM could be a nice first step
  244. dwd edhelas, So i think all the standards exist, but implementations, on the other hand, are harder. Asterisk might help for voice etc, I'm not so sure about IM.
  245. dwd edhelas, I have a very vague recollection that Openfire has a plugin, too - no idea what shape it's in.
  246. edhelas ok
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  249. Dele Olajide There is a SIP plugin for openfire that is still very much in use. It maps the SIP credentials to an XMPP JID. I use for users and even SIP proxies
  250. edhelas nice
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  273. Zash Would this make sense? (poke jonas’) $(all_xep_xmls): $(OUTDIR)/%.xml: %.xml - cp $< $@ + xmllint --nonet --noent --loaddtd "$<" > "$@"
  274. Zash Eg with how https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0226.xml can't be parsed by tiself because external entities
  275. jonas’ Zash, make a PR, I’m happy to test it
  276. jonas’ Zash, hm, instead you could copy xep.ent into the build/ too
  277. Zash MAYBE
  278. Zash So much indirection in the Makeflie
  279. Zash So much indirection in the Makefile
  280. Ge0rG Metafile
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  291. Zash *hick*
  292. Ge0rG Somebody killed the bridge.
  293. Ge0rG burned?
  294. Zash Now if I can never leave a bridged Matrix room, can they leave bridged XMPP rooms?
  295. jonas’ I recall there being a question/issue about that in the tracker
  296. Ge0rG https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-bifrost/issues/63 maybe?
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  301. Zash Hm, wait
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