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jonas’
flow, I suggest message
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jonas’
you could make use of errors with error type='continue' along the way to introduce the traceroute-like backscatter...
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flow
jonas’, yep, that was one reason to use IQ in the first place, but as IQ has no advantage over message with the correct type, I now also lean towards using message
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jonas’
although I don’t see too much harm with modifying an IQ in-flight in a well-specified manner. however, that requires some type of support in the recipient when scattering it back.
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jonas’
implementing the backscatter with error stanzas sent by the hops themselves might be nicer
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jonas’
hm
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jonas’
IQ has the advantage that the recipient will send you back at least service-unavailable
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jonas’
so you know when to stop to listen for backscatter
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jonas’
which makes me tend slightly towards IQ
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Ge0rG
I'm not sure what the use case is, but having a generic stanza payload element that tells the server to send back a dedicated message with the annotation sounds like a more reasonable approach to me
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Ge0rG
What if you never receive the actual pong?
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Ge0rG
All trace route info is lost tung
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Ge0rG
Then
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flow
Ge0rG: What if you mostly receive the response, either in form of a pong or of an error type stanza?
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flow
jonas’, isn't there a message type where an intermediate hop will send an error back, ideally with the full payload, in case the stanza can't be routed?
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jonas’
flow, not built-in
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Ge0rG
flow: what if you want to debug _why_ you don't receive a given response?
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flow
jonas’, groupchat maybe?
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jonas’
flow, no
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flow
Ge0rG, then I could still go the traceroute approach and proceed with the next closest hop in case of no response
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Ge0rG
flow: oh wait. you can just send three ping IQs to all the hops!
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jonas’
flow, how would you know the next-closest hop?
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Ge0rG
it's xmpp! it's got a fixed routing structure.
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Ge0rG
my full jid -> my domain jid -> their domain jid -> their bare jid -> their full jid
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flow
jonas’, ahh right there is a case where groupchat does not trigger an error respone: RFC 6120 § 8.5.3.2.1.
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jonas’
Ge0rG, metre? :)
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jonas’
Ge0rG, components?
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Ge0rG
jonas’: how do you obtain traceroute results from a thing without a JID?
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jonas’
it could have a JID, but not the one you expect
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jonas’
In theory, I could assign my metre-like thing a JID for management/monitoring purposes, and that could be the JID which replies
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flow
jonas’, both approaches have their advantage and disadvantage. I would lean towards the initial one, but that doesn't mean that we could also do the other one, i.e., by having an extra flag which indicates that intermediate hops send their data right away
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jonas’
is there any reason for intermediate hops to *not* send their data right away?
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flow
well if everything works according to the standard then they don't need do
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jonas’
that’s wrong
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jonas’
a recipient is not required to mirror the payload in an error message if it doesn’t understand it
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jonas’
it is a MAY or a SHOULD, but not a MUST
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jonas’
so if your final recipient does not understand the IQ based protocol, you won’t see the intermediate hops
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jonas’
which is meh
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Ge0rG
> well if everything works according to the standard then they don't need do well if everything works according to the standard then you don't need traceroute
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flow
Ge0rG, I don't think I would conclude that
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flow
jonas’, that is also true mostly for the message based protocol
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jonas’
flow, which is why I’m leaning towards IQ and backscatter with type='error' type='continue'
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flow
jonas’, yeah that is a strong argument for IQ
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dwd
"matrix.org is not recognised by the IETF as an Open Standards body" - https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/art/EjDTW6KhrOYebVS8SGsZh7BEE9g
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flow
I am probably going to switch xep-traceroute from <ping/> to a custom IQ
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dwd
FWIW, I have no idea what Metre would do in terms of a traceroute thing. It's intentionally invisible, beyond testing cases.
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Ge0rG
flow: your proposal lacks a rationale so I can't say what you need it for when everything works
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flow
I don't think I proposed something. But besides that, there is a short and possible incomplete note in the introduction.
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Ge0rG
So what is it needed for when everything works?
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flow
You probably shouldn't use something like traceroute to test if a channel to a remote entity is encrypted. But it sure would be nice, and if it is just to satisfy my and possible other people's curiosity about how the channel may look
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Ge0rG
Is it possible to have asymmetric paths in XMPP?
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Ge0rG
jonas’: btw, responding from an "unexpected" JID most probably won't work because you need to s2s auth that domain first
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dwd
Ge0rG, With Metre and stuff like it, anything's possible.
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jonas’
Ge0rG, what stops such a thing from actually having that JID available via s2s?
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jonas’
e.g. gateway.company.example, could easily have s2s records :)
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Ge0rG
jonas’: most probably: nobody testing for it
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dwd
jonas’, One thing that stops it is that nobody would want to expose such infrastrcture without good reason.
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Ge0rG
That, too. Nobody wants to expose themselves to xml deserialization.
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Ge0rG
Oh. Wait.
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Zash
dwd: What is an "Internet Standards body"? Those exact words are not in the RFC referenced?✎ -
Guus
completely off-topic, but this is the channel with most French nationals that I know of - is a company named AYOMI legit? Seems to be a crowd-funding platform, but Gmail warns about phishing.
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Zash
dwd: What is an "Open Standards body"? Those exact words are not in the RFC referenced? ✏
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dwd
Zash, No idea. It just amused me. The XSF *is* considered an Open Standards Body, as far as I can tell, because otherwise we wouldn't have got "urn:xmpp:"
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Zash
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2026#section-7 I assume
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neshtaxmpp
someoone receive my photo
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neshtaxmpp
https://bgzashtita.es/upload/2648c95f187eff879a53c9890338a1a8d74210e6/5K0I4twyQ0gldJzYDaGx1guJq9vj23dsGsRMeIJm/20190410_145407.jpg
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Zash
Is this relevant to XMPP standards?
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Guus
I see the picture.
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neshtaxmpp
Guus, thank... disroot didn;t see it.
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edhelas
is is possible to bridge SIP and XMPP ?
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Zash
Probably
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Zash
Also see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7573
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dwd
edhelas, Do you mean bridging SIP and Jingle, or SIMPLE and XMPP-IM?
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edhelas
both actually
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edhelas
maybe the SIMPLE/XMPP-IM could be a nice first step
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dwd
edhelas, So i think all the standards exist, but implementations, on the other hand, are harder. Asterisk might help for voice etc, I'm not so sure about IM.
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dwd
edhelas, I have a very vague recollection that Openfire has a plugin, too - no idea what shape it's in.
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edhelas
ok
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Dele Olajide
There is a SIP plugin for openfire that is still very much in use. It maps the SIP credentials to an XMPP JID. I use for users and even SIP proxies
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edhelas
nice
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Zash
Would this make sense? (poke jonas’) $(all_xep_xmls): $(OUTDIR)/%.xml: %.xml - cp $< $@ + xmllint --nonet --noent --loaddtd "$<" > "$@"
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Zash
Eg with how https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0226.xml can't be parsed by tiself because external entities
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jonas’
Zash, make a PR, I’m happy to test it
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jonas’
Zash, hm, instead you could copy xep.ent into the build/ too
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Zash
MAYBE
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Zash
So much indirection in the Makeflie✎ -
Zash
So much indirection in the Makefile ✏
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Ge0rG
Metafile
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Zash
*hick*
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Ge0rG
Somebody killed the bridge.
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Ge0rG
burned?
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Zash
Now if I can never leave a bridged Matrix room, can they leave bridged XMPP rooms?
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jonas’
I recall there being a question/issue about that in the tracker
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Ge0rG
https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-bifrost/issues/63 maybe?
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Zash
Hm, wait