XSF Discussion - 2019-04-11

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  7. Neustradamus https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0203.xml /!\
  8. waqas https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0203.html \o/
  9. Neustradamus waqas: I have not seen the extension .xml !
  10. waqas I think the xml files were always there?
  11. Neustradamus .pdf too
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  13. Zash waqas: borked until recently
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  15. waqas "Error parsing a meta element's content: ';' is not a valid key-value pair separator. Please use ',' instead." because of <meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width; initial-scale=1.0; maximum-scale=2.0" />
  16. Zash waqas: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/782
  17. waqas I may just be misremembering, but I think the XML files rendered too back in the day, in browsers supporting dtd and xslt.
  18. Neustradamus Have an idea for redirection of old proposals (inbox) to real XEPs?
  19. Neustradamus *you
  20. Zash Fails to render because the entities are not included
  21. Zash Explain why https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/783 fails
  22. waqas I thought the entities were in some dtd
  23. waqas Ah, your PR fixes them? Nice
  24. waqas I'm curious how well .xml works across browsers, i.e. could we replace .html with it? :P
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  39. 1111111111 sdfsdfsd fsd
  40. 1111111111 sdfsd
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  73. jonas’ waqas, "no"
  74. jonas’ mostly because noscript and stuff may block XSLT by default
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  76. waqas Aww, XSLT shouldn't classify as script…
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  78. jonas’ it is turing complete
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  156. ralphm I'll be a bit late for the meeting today
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  158. nyco ding
  159. Guus dong
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  161. Guus (let's wait for ralphm)
  162. nyco how much?
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  164. Guus a bit.
  165. nyco that much?
  166. nyco a byte?
  167. Guus (he would have written that he would not make it, if he didn't plan to join us)
  168. Guus a byte is more than a bit. 🙂
  169. nyco what do we do while we wait?
  170. Guus be patient. 🙂
  171. nyco how do we do that?
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  173. Guus I put my kids to daycare to not have to answer questions like these during working hours 😃
  174. nyco Why?
  175. nyco Why? Why? Why???
  176. nyco (my daughter is in her "why" moment... arf)
  177. Guus better than the 'no' phase.
  178. nyco that moment is now over for her, gooooood
  179. ralphm Here
  180. ralphm bangs gavel
  181. nyco \o/
  182. Guus poor gavel
  183. ralphm 0. Welcome + agenda
  184. ralphm Hi!
  185. Guus 'lo
  186. ralphm Sorry, had a plumber over
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  189. ralphm I got one agenda item from Kev
  190. Seve Hi
  191. ralphm Anything else?
  192. Guus the iteam lead thing? That's on trello
  193. Guus or somethign else?
  194. ralphm no that
  195. Guus jonas’ also added something, but that's on trello too
  196. Guus I have nothing except for what's on Trello already.
  197. ralphm 1. Minute taker
  198. ralphm Let's have one
  199. ralphm If there are not volunteers, can please one of us do it?
  200. ralphm Not having minutes is terrible.
  201. Seve I'm not good at it on real time, but can try to do it after, reading the logs.
  202. ralphm Ok, thanks.
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  204. ralphm 2. Infrastructure Team Lead
  205. ralphm Kev is stepping down. We need a replacement.
  206. Guus Did iteam put someone forward?
  207. ralphm Not yet.
  208. Guus (or did all but one step back?)
  209. ralphm We can ask them to do so.
  210. Guus that'd have my preference
  211. nyco step back?
  212. ralphm To be clear, Kev remains on the team, just not as lead.
  213. Guus (nyco: a bad joke: if everyone steps back, the one person that does not do so appears to have stepped forward)
  214. ralphm Ok, let's ask iteam to suggest a new lead.
  215. nyco side question: do we need to "hire"/"coopt" more members?
  216. ralphm I don't know.
  217. Guus let's leave that question to iteam.
  218. ralphm Right.
  219. ralphm So everyone ok with just asking iteam to suggest a new lead?
  220. Guus I am.
  221. nyco +1
  222. ralphm I'll write an e-mail to that effect.
  223. Guus let's make MattJ appear by mentioning him.
  224. ralphm 3. 404.city and the server list
  225. Seve +1 to iteam suggesting a new lead
  226. Guus I've left my comments on the Trello card
  227. ralphm I'm with Jonas that it is probably not for the XSF to suggest lists of deployed servers. I believe this was also why xmpp.net was initially out of scope, too.
  228. ralphm (as it was about the network, rather than the standards org)
  229. Guus it's not unlike listing available client, server and library implementations.
  230. ralphm I'm not sure if any list would be unbiased.
  231. Guus the main reason for having the server listing is to allow for a 'getting started' page to exist.
  232. Guus such a page does not make much sense on any other site than the xmpp.org site.
  233. ralphm Sure, I understand this.
  234. ralphm I'd be happy to point to lists of servers that others maintain.
  235. Guus I think the amount of bias involved is outweighed by usefulness.
  236. Seve If there was a public repository full of XMPP deployments where people could just send PRs to it that we could link to, as an example list, would that be better or would be still be in the same situation?
  237. ralphm I don't think we should be maintain such a list.
  238. Seve Somebody would need to maintain it at an individual level, not org. though
  239. Guus Seve, the current list is such a list, as is the new addition. We also used to have a list on xmpp.net (maintained by PSA) that did this.
  240. Guus for the record - this debate is not about us maintaining a list.
  241. Seve But it is under xmpp.org, which looks like the problem
  242. Guus this is about linking to a list.
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  244. ralphm I think Seve refers to the list of 5 suggested popular servers
  245. ralphm https://xmpp.org/getting-started/
  246. Guus just looked at the page, and noticed them. I forgot about those
  247. Guus we can remove those - but that's not what's under discussion now
  248. ralphm Right
  249. ralphm I'd just accept #545
  250. Seve Oh, right, my bad, got confused :)
  251. nyco +1 for #545
  252. Guus I think adding 545 would be good - I'd love for that list to include registration instructions though (cc 404.city )
  253. Guus specifically, how new users can register with the servers that are listed on the list.
  254. ralphm Good.
  255. Guus jonas’ suggests a vote amongst members
  256. Guus I don't think that's needed.
  257. ralphm No
  258. Seve Looks good and includes different instances. The only comment I would add to this is, for future us, we should check from time to time this kind of resources we link to, to make sure they keep being the same as what we accepted them for
  259. Guus but i'd like to have it mentioned, as he suggested it.
  260. ralphm Right
  261. ralphm Ok. Given my tardiness, I suggest we move the other items to next week.
  262. ralphm 4. AOB
  263. nyco not for me
  264. ralphm None?
  265. Guus me neither
  266. Seve Not here
  267. ralphm 5. Date of Next
  268. ralphm +1W
  269. Guus wfm
  270. nyco +1
  271. Seve +1
  272. ralphm 6. Close
  273. ralphm Thanks all!
  274. nyco thx all
  275. ralphm bangs poor gavel again
  276. Seve Cool :)
  277. Guus I'll re-format 545 to replace the list of domains with a list of lists.
  278. Seve Great Guus, thank you.
  279. Ge0rG floor comment re #545: I think that it's important to have a list maintainer with a good reputation, and I don't think that 404 does have that.
  280. nyco why not?
  281. Seve Ge0rG, I agree with you.
  282. nyco I see 404 is quite active, which is good I may not be able to see the negative
  283. Ge0rG nyco: they were very confrontational in the past about promoting _their_ server, and the reason for creating the list was because they got delisted on the jabber.at list
  284. Ge0rG being active is not always a good thing.
  285. nyco oh I see, missed that
  286. nyco thx
  287. Ge0rG there was also an s2s block involved between jabber.at and 404, but I don't remember who started it.
  288. Ge0rG I didn't have the impression that the person behind is behaving like an adult.
  289. Guus Ge0rG I dislike much of what has happened. None-the-less, the list that 404.city generated is useful. If in the future, we detect any malicious activity, we can always remove our listing of the list.
  290. nyco ok, enough said 😉
  291. Seve That's why my comment on taking a look at it from time to time.
  292. nyco who's the guy behind?
  293. Guus nyco 404.city
  294. Guus I've mentioned him three times now 🙂
  295. nyco so someone of the vity hall of his birthplace allowed his parents to name him like that?
  296. nyco (sorry, assuming gender btw)
  297. Seve Haha
  298. Ge0rG Guus: 404 said that they want their server listed on the "getting started" page because that makes it easier for them to obtain funding. I think this is balancing on a very thin line of "commercial interest"
  299. nyco so someone of the city hall of his birthplace allowed his parents to name him like that?
  300. nyco sponsors have a commercial interest
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  303. Guus Ge0rG let's give the guy (m/f) a chance to prove theirselves.
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  306. Ge0rG (I didn't ask for yax.im to be added to that list, BTW)
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  308. Guus oooh, let's get into the legality of providing links to stuff 😃
  309. Ge0rG Guus: soon to be forbidden in the EU!
  310. 404.city You can always delete the list. I will comply with the criteria of openness list
  311. Guus I read today that Russia will have it's own private internet soon too.
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  313. 404.city If you don't like it in the future, you can always delete the list. I will comply with the criteria of openness list
  314. Ge0rG 404.city: there is a typo in the title: "Open list *of* public XMPP servers"
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  317. Andrew Nenakhov Guus, Russian private internet in the end will look a lot like North Korean
  318. Guus but with more vodka, right? 🙂
  319. Guus any last comments on https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/545 ?
  320. Guus if not, I'll merge
  321. 404.city Ge0rG, fixed
  322. Ge0rG Guus: I liked the integrated list of servers with a link to more better.
  323. Ge0rG (independent of the actual content of the server list and of the objectivity of the linked lists)
  324. Guus You deliberately waited for me to push 'merge' before typing that, didn't you?
  325. Ge0rG Guus: no, I'm just slow from my mobile.
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  327. Guus fwiw, I agree - but only marginally, and I'd like to avoid the topic of bias from returning
  328. Ge0rG Guus: bias regarding the integrated server list or regarding the linked list?
  329. Guus yes.
  330. Ge0rG At least, servers with IBR (and no captchas) should be explicitly marked as easy entrance.
  331. Ge0rG looks at rabbit holes that turn out to be bottomless pits
  332. Neustradamus I have done a ticket about jabber.org problem (since a very long time): https://github.com/stpeter/jabberdotorg/issues/12; 1 sent = 66 received
  333. Guus goes to find a large smelly trout while eyeing Ge0rG ...
  334. Neustradamus I am not sure that it is for all jabber.org account or only one or some (a DB problem?)
  335. Neustradamus I am not sure that it is for all jabber.org accounts or only one or some (a DB problem?)
  336. Zash Guus: Would salmon be an acceptable substitute? I saw some last year along the river.
  337. Guus Zash I had "large blunt object with rusty spikes" before I remembered to be more civil in here, and replaced it with a fish. So yeah, a salmon is ok, assuming it's smelly enough.
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  339. Zash /trout was the best part of IRC
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  341. Guus mIRC only, right?
  342. Guus that, and bash.org
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  345. Ge0rG Those were the times.
  346. Ge0rG I've stopped using mIRC in 1997 or somesuch.
  347. moparisthebest I'm in an IRC channel with 1 guy who still uses mIRC right now
  348. moparisthebest he constantly complains when windows 10 updates breaks it, but somehow still manages to fix those and keep it working :'(
  349. Guus I'm pretty sure that there's an XKCD comic that is exactly this.
  350. jonas’ Guus, https://xkcd.com/1782/
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  352. jonas’ Guus, thanks for handling the list :)
  353. Guus no problem
  354. Guus thanks for the nudge
  355. Guus I was looking away as hard as I could 😉
  356. jonas’ :P
  357. jonas’ since I receive cron mails into a separate directory, other stuff becomes more annoying ;)
  358. jonas’ since I started receiving cron mails into a separate directory, other stuff becomes more annoying ;)
  359. Ge0rG I feel inclined to PR everything back.
  360. jonas’ oh dear
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  364. Seve Ge0rG, ?
  365. Ge0rG Seve: > I liked the integrated list of servers with a link to more better. (independent of the actual content of the server list and of the objectivity of the linked lists)
  366. Seve Ge0rG, why? because is less cumbersomme to choose a server from there instead of going to a list and then choose there?
  367. Ge0rG Seve: yes
  368. Ge0rG too much choice is bad for users
  369. Ge0rG and power users will figure it out anyway, they don't need "getting started"
  370. 404.city Ge0rG, Perfect for you list, this is one server yax.im )
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  373. moparisthebest I can't imagine any users navigating xmpp.org to find a server anyhow
  374. Seve I understand, Ge0rG.
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  377. Seve Something like that, moparisthebest :D
  378. Ge0rG moparisthebest: we'd need a user survey to find out
  379. Ge0rG > I can't imagine anyone navigating xmpp.org.
  380. moparisthebest then we'd only get the users that navigated to xmpp.org and were willing to take a survey
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  386. 404.city Serve I, too, his server (yax.im) was in the list of five recommended. It was he who protested against the addition of other new servers to this list
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  388. Guus Sigh
  389. moparisthebest so while I'm 100% confident Ge0rG wasn't doing that for bad reasons, there is something to be said for "avoiding even the appearance of impropriety"
  390. Zash Is there a list made by someone who doesn't have a stake in one of the items?
  391. moparisthebest I've said it before, I think we need to be open to any lists on there, or have no lists at all
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  393. Guus moparisthebest: To a reasonable degree, I agree. I feel that we are nearing the edge of what is reasonable here.
  394. Ge0rG 404.city: I wasn't against the addition of other servers, I was against the addition of your specific server, because nobody knows who you are, and you are making very much noise about your server being good.
  395. moparisthebest that's always the hard part isn't it :) you can't even say something like "legal servers" because that varies by jurisdiction
  396. dwd moparisthebest, Also what's illegal in some jurisdictions might be morally justifiable to those from others.
  397. moparisthebest exactly
  398. Ge0rG 404.city: you might be a well-intentioned legitimate cryptopunk or a Saudi secret service agent.
  399. moparisthebest then you are down to like, a fair vote (members and/or board), and is it even worth the trouble
  400. 404.city Ge0rG, With the same probability as you)
  401. Guus > then you are down to like, a fair vote (members and/or board), and is it even worth the trouble Which is pretty much what we did today
  402. moparisthebest ah ok, sorry didn't read full backlog
  403. Guus I never do. 😉
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  406. Guus > Ge0rG, With the same probability as you) This is untrue. The XSF community knows a lot more about Ge0rG than about you.
  407. moparisthebest presumably a Saudi secret service agent would also be pretty good at joining and contributing to the XSF
  408. Zash OR Ge0rG has spent more time building his alibi
  409. moparisthebest if anything 404.city would be less likely to be one because if he is one he's super bad at his job
  410. Guus His full name, employment, and various face to face discussions, for starters.
  411. moparisthebest if you want to go down that rabbit hole :)
  412. Guus runs away
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  419. Ge0rG 404.city: some of the people in this room have met a person in real-life who claimed to be me
  420. Ge0rG it's not very hard to find out my real name and approximate location
  421. Ge0rG I'm not somebody who refuses to give their full name on a public manifesto I sign.
  422. moparisthebest full name? what are you, facebook?
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  431. Ge0rG moparisthebest: so then somebody from an *incompetent* secret service?
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  440. Ge0rG But yeah, whatever Board rushes through in the last minutes of the meeting is The Rule.
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  443. Guus Ge0rG: only for this. Trademark license issues have a much improved way to The Rule.
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  445. Guus Ge0rG: only for this. Trademark license issues have a moar better way to The Rule.
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  448. Ge0rG Guus: we might actually be able to improve our trademark process if somebody finds a good easy reference trademark process in a reputable FOSS foundation.
  449. moparisthebest better yet, if someone could find any non-expired documents at all stating the XSF is legally allowed to do anything with The Trademark
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  453. Ge0rG moparisthebest: only the "evaluation of collaboration" part is expired.
  454. moparisthebest Ge0rG, I feel like we go over this every few months, but https://xmpp.org/docs/Trademark_Enforcement_Agreement.pdf starts may 2, 2003, and both sections 1 and 3 say 'for a period of 12 months after that date'
  455. moparisthebest #2 where the trademark was to be transferred to the XSF never happened
  456. moparisthebest so, how is that in any way still valid?
  457. moparisthebest from the bottom of https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/jabber-trademark/background.html
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  460. Ge0rG moparisthebest: according to stpeter, it still is.
  461. moparisthebest right, but no documents saying this
  462. moparisthebest pretty sure a lawyer would say this is not good enough
  463. Ge0rG moparisthebest: IIRC it's a matter of reading the right parts in the right ways
  464. dwd moparisthebest, Since Cisco have never challenged us over it, then either we have the right, or nobody has the trademark anymore.
  465. moparisthebest hmm that's an interesting take, I guess maybe true if Cisco even knows about it
  466. moparisthebest but if that's the position, maybe remove the expired documents from the website :)
  467. Ge0rG moparisthebest: stpeter scheduled a talk with Cisco legal some time this or next week
  468. moparisthebest ah awesome
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  543. moparisthebest https://twitter.com/matrixdotorg/status/1116304867683905537
  544. moparisthebest > We’ve taken down the servers which host http://Matrix.org and http://Riot.im for emergency security maintenance - estimated downtime is several hours. More updates as we have them.
  545. moparisthebest looks like they were hacked, ouch
  546. yvo has joined
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  548. Ge0rG Emergency maintenance!
  549. alacer has left
  550. moparisthebest later they say hacked, essentially https://twitter.com/matrixdotorg/status/1116388572922302466
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  569. Andrew Nenakhov I decided to avoid ever using jabber term
  570. Ge0rG The Xabber client is using the Xabber protocol to connect to the cryptowhores black market for drugs and weapons.
  571. Nekit has left
  572. Andrew Nenakhov That has a certain ring to it
  573. alacer has left
  574. Ge0rG Oh, I mean the conversations server. Don't know where the other text came from
  575. Andrew Nenakhov And while we do deviate from xmpp protocol , I still prefer to call our protocol xmpp, not Xabber
  576. edhelas Matrix has been attacked by the Watchovsky sisters for IP issues
  577. edhelas That's why they're down
  578. edhelas We have Cisco, they have their Oracle 😋
  579. Andrew Nenakhov Good that both Wachowskis are women now
  580. Andrew Nenakhov Us Russians had a hard time addressing them when they were siblings
  581. Andrew Nenakhov The is no word for sibling in Russian
  582. Neustradamus Andrew Nenakhov: nice, XMPP is the best!
  583. Neustradamus Hope the full XEP-0045 support now!
  584. Andrew Nenakhov Unlikely, sorry
  585. Andrew Nenakhov 0045 should be retired
  586. Ge0rG edhelas [23:36]: > Matrix has been attacked by the Watchovsky sisters for IP issues Sarcasm or source?
  587. Andrew Nenakhov I guess it's a joke.
  588. Ge0rG The matrix is obviously a vector product.
  589. Ge0rG You don't need pill jokes if you can have awesome math nerd jokes.
  590. Neustradamus Maybe Xabber supports PSYC ah ah https://about.psyc.eu/
  591. Ge0rG I2p maybe? Briar?
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  593. Ge0rG All of the above!
  594. moparisthebest Ge0rG: but was matrix the vector of attack?
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  598. Andrew Nenakhov moparisthebest, determinantly!
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