XSF Discussion - 2019-04-11

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  7. Neustradamus

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0203.xml /!\

  8. waqas

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0203.html \o/

  9. Neustradamus

    waqas: I have not seen the extension .xml !

  10. waqas

    I think the xml files were always there?

  11. Neustradamus

    .pdf too

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  13. Zash

    waqas: borked until recently

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  15. waqas

    "Error parsing a meta element's content: ';' is not a valid key-value pair separator. Please use ',' instead." because of <meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width; initial-scale=1.0; maximum-scale=2.0" />

  16. Zash

    waqas: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/782

  17. waqas

    I may just be misremembering, but I think the XML files rendered too back in the day, in browsers supporting dtd and xslt.

  18. Neustradamus

    Have an idea for redirection of old proposals (inbox) to real XEPs?

  19. Neustradamus


  20. Zash

    Fails to render because the entities are not included

  21. Zash

    Explain why https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/783 fails

  22. waqas

    I thought the entities were in some dtd

  23. waqas

    Ah, your PR fixes them? Nice

  24. waqas

    I'm curious how well .xml works across browsers, i.e. could we replace .html with it? :P

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  39. 1111111111

    sdfsdfsd fsd

  40. 1111111111


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  73. jonas’

    waqas, "no"

  74. jonas’

    mostly because noscript and stuff may block XSLT by default

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  76. waqas

    Aww, XSLT shouldn't classify as script…

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  78. jonas’

    it is turing complete

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  156. ralphm

    I'll be a bit late for the meeting today

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  158. nyco


  159. Guus


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  161. Guus

    (let's wait for ralphm)

  162. nyco

    how much?

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  164. Guus

    a bit.

  165. nyco

    that much?

  166. nyco

    a byte?

  167. Guus

    (he would have written that he would not make it, if he didn't plan to join us)

  168. Guus

    a byte is more than a bit. 🙂

  169. nyco

    what do we do while we wait?

  170. Guus

    be patient. 🙂

  171. nyco

    how do we do that?

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  173. Guus

    I put my kids to daycare to not have to answer questions like these during working hours 😃

  174. nyco


  175. nyco

    Why? Why? Why???

  176. nyco

    (my daughter is in her "why" moment... arf)

  177. Guus

    better than the 'no' phase.

  178. nyco

    that moment is now over for her, gooooood

  179. ralphm


  180. ralphm bangs gavel

  181. nyco


  182. Guus

    poor gavel

  183. ralphm

    0. Welcome + agenda

  184. ralphm


  185. Guus


  186. ralphm

    Sorry, had a plumber over

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  189. ralphm

    I got one agenda item from Kev

  190. Seve


  191. ralphm

    Anything else?

  192. Guus

    the iteam lead thing? That's on trello

  193. Guus

    or somethign else?

  194. ralphm

    no that

  195. Guus

    jonas’ also added something, but that's on trello too

  196. Guus

    I have nothing except for what's on Trello already.

  197. ralphm

    1. Minute taker

  198. ralphm

    Let's have one

  199. ralphm

    If there are not volunteers, can please one of us do it?

  200. ralphm

    Not having minutes is terrible.

  201. Seve

    I'm not good at it on real time, but can try to do it after, reading the logs.

  202. ralphm

    Ok, thanks.

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  204. ralphm

    2. Infrastructure Team Lead

  205. ralphm

    Kev is stepping down. We need a replacement.

  206. Guus

    Did iteam put someone forward?

  207. ralphm

    Not yet.

  208. Guus

    (or did all but one step back?)

  209. ralphm

    We can ask them to do so.

  210. Guus

    that'd have my preference

  211. nyco

    step back?

  212. ralphm

    To be clear, Kev remains on the team, just not as lead.

  213. Guus

    (nyco: a bad joke: if everyone steps back, the one person that does not do so appears to have stepped forward)

  214. ralphm

    Ok, let's ask iteam to suggest a new lead.

  215. nyco

    side question: do we need to "hire"/"coopt" more members?

  216. ralphm

    I don't know.

  217. Guus

    let's leave that question to iteam.

  218. ralphm


  219. ralphm

    So everyone ok with just asking iteam to suggest a new lead?

  220. Guus

    I am.

  221. nyco


  222. ralphm

    I'll write an e-mail to that effect.

  223. Guus

    let's make MattJ appear by mentioning him.

  224. ralphm

    3. 404.city and the server list

  225. Seve

    +1 to iteam suggesting a new lead

  226. Guus

    I've left my comments on the Trello card

  227. ralphm

    I'm with Jonas that it is probably not for the XSF to suggest lists of deployed servers. I believe this was also why xmpp.net was initially out of scope, too.

  228. ralphm

    (as it was about the network, rather than the standards org)

  229. Guus

    it's not unlike listing available client, server and library implementations.

  230. ralphm

    I'm not sure if any list would be unbiased.

  231. Guus

    the main reason for having the server listing is to allow for a 'getting started' page to exist.

  232. Guus

    such a page does not make much sense on any other site than the xmpp.org site.

  233. ralphm

    Sure, I understand this.

  234. ralphm

    I'd be happy to point to lists of servers that others maintain.

  235. Guus

    I think the amount of bias involved is outweighed by usefulness.

  236. Seve

    If there was a public repository full of XMPP deployments where people could just send PRs to it that we could link to, as an example list, would that be better or would be still be in the same situation?

  237. ralphm

    I don't think we should be maintain such a list.

  238. Seve

    Somebody would need to maintain it at an individual level, not org. though

  239. Guus

    Seve, the current list is such a list, as is the new addition. We also used to have a list on xmpp.net (maintained by PSA) that did this.

  240. Guus

    for the record - this debate is not about us maintaining a list.

  241. Seve

    But it is under xmpp.org, which looks like the problem

  242. Guus

    this is about linking to a list.

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  244. ralphm

    I think Seve refers to the list of 5 suggested popular servers

  245. ralphm


  246. Guus

    just looked at the page, and noticed them. I forgot about those

  247. Guus

    we can remove those - but that's not what's under discussion now

  248. ralphm


  249. ralphm

    I'd just accept #545

  250. Seve

    Oh, right, my bad, got confused :)

  251. nyco

    +1 for #545

  252. Guus

    I think adding 545 would be good - I'd love for that list to include registration instructions though (cc 404.city )

  253. Guus

    specifically, how new users can register with the servers that are listed on the list.

  254. ralphm


  255. Guus

    jonas’ suggests a vote amongst members

  256. Guus

    I don't think that's needed.

  257. ralphm


  258. Seve

    Looks good and includes different instances. The only comment I would add to this is, for future us, we should check from time to time this kind of resources we link to, to make sure they keep being the same as what we accepted them for

  259. Guus

    but i'd like to have it mentioned, as he suggested it.

  260. ralphm


  261. ralphm

    Ok. Given my tardiness, I suggest we move the other items to next week.

  262. ralphm

    4. AOB

  263. nyco

    not for me

  264. ralphm


  265. Guus

    me neither

  266. Seve

    Not here

  267. ralphm

    5. Date of Next

  268. ralphm


  269. Guus


  270. nyco


  271. Seve


  272. ralphm

    6. Close

  273. ralphm

    Thanks all!

  274. nyco

    thx all

  275. ralphm bangs poor gavel again

  276. Seve

    Cool :)

  277. Guus

    I'll re-format 545 to replace the list of domains with a list of lists.

  278. Seve

    Great Guus, thank you.

  279. Ge0rG

    floor comment re #545: I think that it's important to have a list maintainer with a good reputation, and I don't think that 404 does have that.

  280. nyco

    why not?

  281. Seve

    Ge0rG, I agree with you.

  282. nyco

    I see 404 is quite active, which is good I may not be able to see the negative

  283. Ge0rG

    nyco: they were very confrontational in the past about promoting _their_ server, and the reason for creating the list was because they got delisted on the jabber.at list

  284. Ge0rG

    being active is not always a good thing.

  285. nyco

    oh I see, missed that

  286. nyco


  287. Ge0rG

    there was also an s2s block involved between jabber.at and 404, but I don't remember who started it.

  288. Ge0rG

    I didn't have the impression that the person behind is behaving like an adult.

  289. Guus

    Ge0rG I dislike much of what has happened. None-the-less, the list that 404.city generated is useful. If in the future, we detect any malicious activity, we can always remove our listing of the list.

  290. nyco

    ok, enough said 😉

  291. Seve

    That's why my comment on taking a look at it from time to time.

  292. nyco

    who's the guy behind?

  293. Guus

    nyco 404.city

  294. Guus

    I've mentioned him three times now 🙂

  295. nyco

    so someone of the vity hall of his birthplace allowed his parents to name him like that?

  296. nyco

    (sorry, assuming gender btw)

  297. Seve


  298. Ge0rG

    Guus: 404 said that they want their server listed on the "getting started" page because that makes it easier for them to obtain funding. I think this is balancing on a very thin line of "commercial interest"

  299. nyco

    so someone of the city hall of his birthplace allowed his parents to name him like that?

  300. nyco

    sponsors have a commercial interest

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  303. Guus

    Ge0rG let's give the guy (m/f) a chance to prove theirselves.

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  306. Ge0rG

    (I didn't ask for yax.im to be added to that list, BTW)

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  308. Guus

    oooh, let's get into the legality of providing links to stuff 😃

  309. Ge0rG

    Guus: soon to be forbidden in the EU!

  310. 404.city

    You can always delete the list. I will comply with the criteria of openness list

  311. Guus

    I read today that Russia will have it's own private internet soon too.

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  313. 404.city

    If you don't like it in the future, you can always delete the list. I will comply with the criteria of openness list

  314. Ge0rG

    404.city: there is a typo in the title: "Open list *of* public XMPP servers"

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  317. Andrew Nenakhov

    Guus, Russian private internet in the end will look a lot like North Korean

  318. Guus

    but with more vodka, right? 🙂

  319. Guus

    any last comments on https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/545 ?

  320. Guus

    if not, I'll merge

  321. 404.city

    Ge0rG, fixed

  322. Ge0rG

    Guus: I liked the integrated list of servers with a link to more better.

  323. Ge0rG

    (independent of the actual content of the server list and of the objectivity of the linked lists)

  324. Guus

    You deliberately waited for me to push 'merge' before typing that, didn't you?

  325. Ge0rG

    Guus: no, I'm just slow from my mobile.

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  327. Guus

    fwiw, I agree - but only marginally, and I'd like to avoid the topic of bias from returning

  328. Ge0rG

    Guus: bias regarding the integrated server list or regarding the linked list?

  329. Guus


  330. Ge0rG

    At least, servers with IBR (and no captchas) should be explicitly marked as easy entrance.

  331. Ge0rG looks at rabbit holes that turn out to be bottomless pits

  332. Neustradamus

    I have done a ticket about jabber.org problem (since a very long time): https://github.com/stpeter/jabberdotorg/issues/12; 1 sent = 66 received

  333. Guus goes to find a large smelly trout while eyeing Ge0rG ...

  334. Neustradamus

    I am not sure that it is for all jabber.org account or only one or some (a DB problem?)

  335. Neustradamus

    I am not sure that it is for all jabber.org accounts or only one or some (a DB problem?)

  336. Zash

    Guus: Would salmon be an acceptable substitute? I saw some last year along the river.

  337. Guus

    Zash I had "large blunt object with rusty spikes" before I remembered to be more civil in here, and replaced it with a fish. So yeah, a salmon is ok, assuming it's smelly enough.

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  339. Zash

    /trout was the best part of IRC

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  341. Guus

    mIRC only, right?

  342. Guus

    that, and bash.org

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  345. Ge0rG

    Those were the times.

  346. Ge0rG

    I've stopped using mIRC in 1997 or somesuch.

  347. moparisthebest

    I'm in an IRC channel with 1 guy who still uses mIRC right now

  348. moparisthebest

    he constantly complains when windows 10 updates breaks it, but somehow still manages to fix those and keep it working :'(

  349. Guus

    I'm pretty sure that there's an XKCD comic that is exactly this.

  350. jonas’

    Guus, https://xkcd.com/1782/

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  352. jonas’

    Guus, thanks for handling the list :)

  353. Guus

    no problem

  354. Guus

    thanks for the nudge

  355. Guus

    I was looking away as hard as I could 😉

  356. jonas’


  357. jonas’

    since I receive cron mails into a separate directory, other stuff becomes more annoying ;)

  358. jonas’

    since I started receiving cron mails into a separate directory, other stuff becomes more annoying ;)

  359. Ge0rG

    I feel inclined to PR everything back.

  360. jonas’

    oh dear

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  364. Seve

    Ge0rG, ?

  365. Ge0rG

    Seve: > I liked the integrated list of servers with a link to more better. (independent of the actual content of the server list and of the objectivity of the linked lists)

  366. Seve

    Ge0rG, why? because is less cumbersomme to choose a server from there instead of going to a list and then choose there?

  367. Ge0rG

    Seve: yes

  368. Ge0rG

    too much choice is bad for users

  369. Ge0rG

    and power users will figure it out anyway, they don't need "getting started"

  370. 404.city

    Ge0rG, Perfect for you list, this is one server yax.im )

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  373. moparisthebest

    I can't imagine any users navigating xmpp.org to find a server anyhow

  374. Seve

    I understand, Ge0rG.

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  377. Seve

    Something like that, moparisthebest :D

  378. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: we'd need a user survey to find out

  379. Ge0rG

    > I can't imagine anyone navigating xmpp.org.

  380. moparisthebest

    then we'd only get the users that navigated to xmpp.org and were willing to take a survey

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  386. 404.city

    Serve I, too, his server (yax.im) was in the list of five recommended. It was he who protested against the addition of other new servers to this list

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  388. Guus


  389. moparisthebest

    so while I'm 100% confident Ge0rG wasn't doing that for bad reasons, there is something to be said for "avoiding even the appearance of impropriety"

  390. Zash

    Is there a list made by someone who doesn't have a stake in one of the items?

  391. moparisthebest

    I've said it before, I think we need to be open to any lists on there, or have no lists at all

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  393. Guus

    moparisthebest: To a reasonable degree, I agree. I feel that we are nearing the edge of what is reasonable here.

  394. Ge0rG

    404.city: I wasn't against the addition of other servers, I was against the addition of your specific server, because nobody knows who you are, and you are making very much noise about your server being good.

  395. moparisthebest

    that's always the hard part isn't it :) you can't even say something like "legal servers" because that varies by jurisdiction

  396. dwd

    moparisthebest, Also what's illegal in some jurisdictions might be morally justifiable to those from others.

  397. moparisthebest


  398. Ge0rG

    404.city: you might be a well-intentioned legitimate cryptopunk or a Saudi secret service agent.

  399. moparisthebest

    then you are down to like, a fair vote (members and/or board), and is it even worth the trouble

  400. 404.city

    Ge0rG, With the same probability as you)

  401. Guus

    > then you are down to like, a fair vote (members and/or board), and is it even worth the trouble Which is pretty much what we did today

  402. moparisthebest

    ah ok, sorry didn't read full backlog

  403. Guus

    I never do. 😉

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  406. Guus

    > Ge0rG, With the same probability as you) This is untrue. The XSF community knows a lot more about Ge0rG than about you.

  407. moparisthebest

    presumably a Saudi secret service agent would also be pretty good at joining and contributing to the XSF

  408. Zash

    OR Ge0rG has spent more time building his alibi

  409. moparisthebest

    if anything 404.city would be less likely to be one because if he is one he's super bad at his job

  410. Guus

    His full name, employment, and various face to face discussions, for starters.

  411. moparisthebest

    if you want to go down that rabbit hole :)

  412. Guus runs away

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  419. Ge0rG

    404.city: some of the people in this room have met a person in real-life who claimed to be me

  420. Ge0rG

    it's not very hard to find out my real name and approximate location

  421. Ge0rG

    I'm not somebody who refuses to give their full name on a public manifesto I sign.

  422. moparisthebest

    full name? what are you, facebook?

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  431. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: so then somebody from an *incompetent* secret service?

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  440. Ge0rG

    But yeah, whatever Board rushes through in the last minutes of the meeting is The Rule.

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  443. Guus

    Ge0rG: only for this. Trademark license issues have a much improved way to The Rule.

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  445. Guus

    Ge0rG: only for this. Trademark license issues have a moar better way to The Rule.

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  448. Ge0rG

    Guus: we might actually be able to improve our trademark process if somebody finds a good easy reference trademark process in a reputable FOSS foundation.

  449. moparisthebest

    better yet, if someone could find any non-expired documents at all stating the XSF is legally allowed to do anything with The Trademark

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  453. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: only the "evaluation of collaboration" part is expired.

  454. moparisthebest

    Ge0rG, I feel like we go over this every few months, but https://xmpp.org/docs/Trademark_Enforcement_Agreement.pdf starts may 2, 2003, and both sections 1 and 3 say 'for a period of 12 months after that date'

  455. moparisthebest

    #2 where the trademark was to be transferred to the XSF never happened

  456. moparisthebest

    so, how is that in any way still valid?

  457. moparisthebest

    from the bottom of https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/jabber-trademark/background.html

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  460. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: according to stpeter, it still is.

  461. moparisthebest

    right, but no documents saying this

  462. moparisthebest

    pretty sure a lawyer would say this is not good enough

  463. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: IIRC it's a matter of reading the right parts in the right ways

  464. dwd

    moparisthebest, Since Cisco have never challenged us over it, then either we have the right, or nobody has the trademark anymore.

  465. moparisthebest

    hmm that's an interesting take, I guess maybe true if Cisco even knows about it

  466. moparisthebest

    but if that's the position, maybe remove the expired documents from the website :)

  467. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: stpeter scheduled a talk with Cisco legal some time this or next week

  468. moparisthebest

    ah awesome

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  543. moparisthebest


  544. moparisthebest

    > We’ve taken down the servers which host http://Matrix.org and http://Riot.im for emergency security maintenance - estimated downtime is several hours. More updates as we have them.

  545. moparisthebest

    looks like they were hacked, ouch

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  548. Ge0rG

    Emergency maintenance!

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  550. moparisthebest

    later they say hacked, essentially https://twitter.com/matrixdotorg/status/1116388572922302466

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  569. Andrew Nenakhov

    I decided to avoid ever using jabber term

  570. Ge0rG

    The Xabber client is using the Xabber protocol to connect to the cryptowhores black market for drugs and weapons.

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  572. Andrew Nenakhov

    That has a certain ring to it

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  574. Ge0rG

    Oh, I mean the conversations server. Don't know where the other text came from

  575. Andrew Nenakhov

    And while we do deviate from xmpp protocol , I still prefer to call our protocol xmpp, not Xabber

  576. edhelas

    Matrix has been attacked by the Watchovsky sisters for IP issues

  577. edhelas

    That's why they're down

  578. edhelas

    We have Cisco, they have their Oracle 😋

  579. Andrew Nenakhov

    Good that both Wachowskis are women now

  580. Andrew Nenakhov

    Us Russians had a hard time addressing them when they were siblings

  581. Andrew Nenakhov

    The is no word for sibling in Russian

  582. Neustradamus

    Andrew Nenakhov: nice, XMPP is the best!

  583. Neustradamus

    Hope the full XEP-0045 support now!

  584. Andrew Nenakhov

    Unlikely, sorry

  585. Andrew Nenakhov

    0045 should be retired

  586. Ge0rG

    edhelas [23:36]: > Matrix has been attacked by the Watchovsky sisters for IP issues Sarcasm or source?

  587. Andrew Nenakhov

    I guess it's a joke.

  588. Ge0rG

    The matrix is obviously a vector product.

  589. Ge0rG

    You don't need pill jokes if you can have awesome math nerd jokes.

  590. Neustradamus

    Maybe Xabber supports PSYC ah ah https://about.psyc.eu/

  591. Ge0rG

    I2p maybe? Briar?

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  593. Ge0rG

    All of the above!

  594. moparisthebest

    Ge0rG: but was matrix the vector of attack?

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  598. Andrew Nenakhov

    moparisthebest, determinantly!

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  618. Zash

    something something array

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