XSF Discussion - 2019-04-11

https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0203.xml /!\

https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0203.html \o/

waqas: I have not seen the extension .xml !

I think the xml files were always there?

.pdf too

waqas: borked until recently

"Error parsing a meta element's content: ';' is not a valid key-value pair separator. Please use ',' instead." because of <meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width; initial-scale=1.0; maximum-scale=2.0" />

waqas: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/782

I may just be misremembering, but I think the XML files rendered too back in the day, in browsers supporting dtd and xslt.

Have an idea for redirection of old proposals (inbox) to real XEPs?

*you

Fails to render because the entities are not included

Explain why https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/783 fails

I thought the entities were in some dtd

Ah, your PR fixes them? Nice

I'm curious how well .xml works across browsers, i.e. could we replace .html with it? :P

sdfsdfsd fsd

sdfsd

waqas, "no"

mostly because noscript and stuff may block XSLT by default

Aww, XSLT shouldn't classify as script…

it is turing complete

I'll be a bit late for the meeting today

ding

dong

(let's wait for ralphm)

how much?

a bit.

that much?

a byte?

(he would have written that he would not make it, if he didn't plan to join us)

a byte is more than a bit. 🙂

what do we do while we wait?

be patient. 🙂

how do we do that?

I put my kids to daycare to not have to answer questions like these during working hours 😃

Why?

Why? Why? Why???

(my daughter is in her "why" moment... arf)

better than the 'no' phase.

that moment is now over for her, gooooood

Here

\o/

poor gavel

0. Welcome + agenda

Hi!

'lo

Sorry, had a plumber over

I got one agenda item from Kev

Hi

Anything else?

the iteam lead thing? That's on trello

or somethign else?

no that

jonas’ also added something, but that's on trello too

I have nothing except for what's on Trello already.

1. Minute taker

Let's have one

If there are not volunteers, can please one of us do it?

Not having minutes is terrible.

I'm not good at it on real time, but can try to do it after, reading the logs.

Ok, thanks.

2. Infrastructure Team Lead

Kev is stepping down. We need a replacement.

Did iteam put someone forward?

Not yet.

(or did all but one step back?)

We can ask them to do so.

that'd have my preference

step back?

To be clear, Kev remains on the team, just not as lead.

(nyco: a bad joke: if everyone steps back, the one person that does not do so appears to have stepped forward)

Ok, let's ask iteam to suggest a new lead.

side question: do we need to "hire"/"coopt" more members?

I don't know.

let's leave that question to iteam.

Right.

So everyone ok with just asking iteam to suggest a new lead?

I am.

+1

I'll write an e-mail to that effect.

let's make MattJ appear by mentioning him.

3. 404.city and the server list

+1 to iteam suggesting a new lead

I've left my comments on the Trello card

I'm with Jonas that it is probably not for the XSF to suggest lists of deployed servers. I believe this was also why xmpp.net was initially out of scope, too.

(as it was about the network, rather than the standards org)

it's not unlike listing available client, server and library implementations.

I'm not sure if any list would be unbiased.

the main reason for having the server listing is to allow for a 'getting started' page to exist.

such a page does not make much sense on any other site than the xmpp.org site.

Sure, I understand this.

I'd be happy to point to lists of servers that others maintain.

I think the amount of bias involved is outweighed by usefulness.

If there was a public repository full of XMPP deployments where people could just send PRs to it that we could link to, as an example list, would that be better or would be still be in the same situation?

I don't think we should be maintain such a list.

Somebody would need to maintain it at an individual level, not org. though

Seve, the current list is such a list, as is the new addition. We also used to have a list on xmpp.net (maintained by PSA) that did this.

for the record - this debate is not about us maintaining a list.

But it is under xmpp.org, which looks like the problem

this is about linking to a list.

I think Seve refers to the list of 5 suggested popular servers

https://xmpp.org/getting-started/

just looked at the page, and noticed them. I forgot about those

we can remove those - but that's not what's under discussion now

Right

I'd just accept #545

Oh, right, my bad, got confused :)

+1 for #545

I think adding 545 would be good - I'd love for that list to include registration instructions though (cc 404.city )

specifically, how new users can register with the servers that are listed on the list.

Good.

jonas’ suggests a vote amongst members

I don't think that's needed.

No

Looks good and includes different instances. The only comment I would add to this is, for future us, we should check from time to time this kind of resources we link to, to make sure they keep being the same as what we accepted them for

but i'd like to have it mentioned, as he suggested it.

Right

Ok. Given my tardiness, I suggest we move the other items to next week.

4. AOB

not for me

None?

me neither

Not here

5. Date of Next

+1W

wfm

+1

+1

6. Close

Thanks all!

thx all

Cool :)

I'll re-format 545 to replace the list of domains with a list of lists.

Great Guus, thank you.

floor comment re #545: I think that it's important to have a list maintainer with a good reputation, and I don't think that 404 does have that.

why not?

Ge0rG, I agree with you.

I see 404 is quite active, which is good I may not be able to see the negative

nyco: they were very confrontational in the past about promoting _their_ server, and the reason for creating the list was because they got delisted on the jabber.at list

being active is not always a good thing.

oh I see, missed that

thx

there was also an s2s block involved between jabber.at and 404, but I don't remember who started it.

I didn't have the impression that the person behind is behaving like an adult.

Ge0rG I dislike much of what has happened. None-the-less, the list that 404.city generated is useful. If in the future, we detect any malicious activity, we can always remove our listing of the list.

ok, enough said 😉

That's why my comment on taking a look at it from time to time.

who's the guy behind?

nyco 404.city

I've mentioned him three times now 🙂

(sorry, assuming gender btw)

Haha

Guus: 404 said that they want their server listed on the "getting started" page because that makes it easier for them to obtain funding. I think this is balancing on a very thin line of "commercial interest"

so someone of the city hall of his birthplace allowed his parents to name him like that? ✏

sponsors have a commercial interest

Ge0rG let's give the guy (m/f) a chance to prove theirselves.

(I didn't ask for yax.im to be added to that list, BTW)

oooh, let's get into the legality of providing links to stuff 😃

Guus: soon to be forbidden in the EU!

I read today that Russia will have it's own private internet soon too.

If you don't like it in the future, you can always delete the list. I will comply with the criteria of openness list ✏

404.city: there is a typo in the title: "Open list *of* public XMPP servers"

Guus, Russian private internet in the end will look a lot like North Korean

but with more vodka, right? 🙂

any last comments on https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/545 ?

if not, I'll merge

Ge0rG, fixed

Guus: I liked the integrated list of servers with a link to more better.

(independent of the actual content of the server list and of the objectivity of the linked lists)

You deliberately waited for me to push 'merge' before typing that, didn't you?

Guus: no, I'm just slow from my mobile.

fwiw, I agree - but only marginally, and I'd like to avoid the topic of bias from returning

Guus: bias regarding the integrated server list or regarding the linked list?

yes.

At least, servers with IBR (and no captchas) should be explicitly marked as easy entrance.

I have done a ticket about jabber.org problem (since a very long time): https://github.com/stpeter/jabberdotorg/issues/12; 1 sent = 66 received

I am not sure that it is for all jabber.org accounts or only one or some (a DB problem?) ✏

Guus: Would salmon be an acceptable substitute? I saw some last year along the river.

Zash I had "large blunt object with rusty spikes" before I remembered to be more civil in here, and replaced it with a fish. So yeah, a salmon is ok, assuming it's smelly enough.

/trout was the best part of IRC

mIRC only, right?

that, and bash.org

Those were the times.

I've stopped using mIRC in 1997 or somesuch.

I'm in an IRC channel with 1 guy who still uses mIRC right now

he constantly complains when windows 10 updates breaks it, but somehow still manages to fix those and keep it working :'(

I'm pretty sure that there's an XKCD comic that is exactly this.

Guus, https://xkcd.com/1782/

Guus, thanks for handling the list :)

no problem

thanks for the nudge

I was looking away as hard as I could 😉

:P

since I started receiving cron mails into a separate directory, other stuff becomes more annoying ;) ✏

I feel inclined to PR everything back.

oh dear

Ge0rG, ?

Seve: > I liked the integrated list of servers with a link to more better. (independent of the actual content of the server list and of the objectivity of the linked lists)

Ge0rG, why? because is less cumbersomme to choose a server from there instead of going to a list and then choose there?

Seve: yes

too much choice is bad for users

and power users will figure it out anyway, they don't need "getting started"

Ge0rG, Perfect for you list, this is one server yax.im )

I can't imagine any users navigating xmpp.org to find a server anyhow

I understand, Ge0rG.

Something like that, moparisthebest :D

moparisthebest: we'd need a user survey to find out

> I can't imagine anyone navigating xmpp.org.

then we'd only get the users that navigated to xmpp.org and were willing to take a survey

Serve I, too, his server (yax.im) was in the list of five recommended. It was he who protested against the addition of other new servers to this list

Sigh

so while I'm 100% confident Ge0rG wasn't doing that for bad reasons, there is something to be said for "avoiding even the appearance of impropriety"

Is there a list made by someone who doesn't have a stake in one of the items?

I've said it before, I think we need to be open to any lists on there, or have no lists at all

moparisthebest: To a reasonable degree, I agree. I feel that we are nearing the edge of what is reasonable here.

404.city: I wasn't against the addition of other servers, I was against the addition of your specific server, because nobody knows who you are, and you are making very much noise about your server being good.

that's always the hard part isn't it :) you can't even say something like "legal servers" because that varies by jurisdiction

moparisthebest, Also what's illegal in some jurisdictions might be morally justifiable to those from others.

exactly

404.city: you might be a well-intentioned legitimate cryptopunk or a Saudi secret service agent.

then you are down to like, a fair vote (members and/or board), and is it even worth the trouble

Ge0rG, With the same probability as you)

> then you are down to like, a fair vote (members and/or board), and is it even worth the trouble Which is pretty much what we did today

ah ok, sorry didn't read full backlog

I never do. 😉

> Ge0rG, With the same probability as you) This is untrue. The XSF community knows a lot more about Ge0rG than about you.

presumably a Saudi secret service agent would also be pretty good at joining and contributing to the XSF

OR Ge0rG has spent more time building his alibi

if anything 404.city would be less likely to be one because if he is one he's super bad at his job

His full name, employment, and various face to face discussions, for starters.

if you want to go down that rabbit hole :)

404.city: some of the people in this room have met a person in real-life who claimed to be me

it's not very hard to find out my real name and approximate location

I'm not somebody who refuses to give their full name on a public manifesto I sign.

full name? what are you, facebook?

moparisthebest: so then somebody from an *incompetent* secret service?

But yeah, whatever Board rushes through in the last minutes of the meeting is The Rule.

Ge0rG: only for this. Trademark license issues have a moar better way to The Rule. ✏

Guus: we might actually be able to improve our trademark process if somebody finds a good easy reference trademark process in a reputable FOSS foundation.

better yet, if someone could find any non-expired documents at all stating the XSF is legally allowed to do anything with The Trademark

moparisthebest: only the "evaluation of collaboration" part is expired.

Ge0rG, I feel like we go over this every few months, but https://xmpp.org/docs/Trademark_Enforcement_Agreement.pdf starts may 2, 2003, and both sections 1 and 3 say 'for a period of 12 months after that date'

#2 where the trademark was to be transferred to the XSF never happened

so, how is that in any way still valid?

from the bottom of https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/jabber-trademark/background.html

moparisthebest: according to stpeter, it still is.

right, but no documents saying this

pretty sure a lawyer would say this is not good enough

moparisthebest: IIRC it's a matter of reading the right parts in the right ways

moparisthebest, Since Cisco have never challenged us over it, then either we have the right, or nobody has the trademark anymore.

hmm that's an interesting take, I guess maybe true if Cisco even knows about it

but if that's the position, maybe remove the expired documents from the website :)

moparisthebest: stpeter scheduled a talk with Cisco legal some time this or next week

ah awesome

https://twitter.com/matrixdotorg/status/1116304867683905537

> We’ve taken down the servers which host http://Matrix.org and http://Riot.im for emergency security maintenance - estimated downtime is several hours. More updates as we have them.

looks like they were hacked, ouch

Emergency maintenance!

later they say hacked, essentially https://twitter.com/matrixdotorg/status/1116388572922302466

I decided to avoid ever using jabber term

The Xabber client is using the Xabber protocol to connect to the cryptowhores black market for drugs and weapons.

That has a certain ring to it

Oh, I mean the conversations server. Don't know where the other text came from

And while we do deviate from xmpp protocol , I still prefer to call our protocol xmpp, not Xabber

Matrix has been attacked by the Watchovsky sisters for IP issues

That's why they're down

We have Cisco, they have their Oracle 😋

Good that both Wachowskis are women now

Us Russians had a hard time addressing them when they were siblings

The is no word for sibling in Russian

Andrew Nenakhov: nice, XMPP is the best!

Hope the full XEP-0045 support now!

Unlikely, sorry

0045 should be retired

edhelas [23:36]: > Matrix has been attacked by the Watchovsky sisters for IP issues Sarcasm or source?

I guess it's a joke.

The matrix is obviously a vector product.

You don't need pill jokes if you can have awesome math nerd jokes.

Maybe Xabber supports PSYC ah ah https://about.psyc.eu/

I2p maybe? Briar?

All of the above!

Ge0rG: but was matrix the vector of attack?

moparisthebest, determinantly!

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