XSF Discussion - 2019-04-17

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  81. Ge0rG is subverting XEPs, one small commit at a time.
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  98. flow rion, did you consider writing to standards@ and probably the xep authors in CC about the stuff you wrote regarding xep260 in the wiki? I am also interested about the rationale behind proxy-error. Unfortunately this appears to be another example where a XEP tells you what to do, but not why…
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  112. rion flow: Hi. maybe in the evening. Working for now.
  113. rion btw at work I do some modifications in Janus server for our customer. and in its signaling has a special attribute for final local candidate. That's what missed in Jingle S5B
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  115. edhelas Ge0rG are you slowly turining 0060 into MIX 😱
  116. Ge0rG edhelas: I'm not touching 0060 with a pole.
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  127. pep. There was a place in the RFCs that say thou shalt not add yourself to the roster, right? I can't find it
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  152. vanitasvitae CCC is demanding freedom for Assange, Manning and Bini: https://www.ccc.de/de/updates/2019/chaos-computer-club-besorgt-uber-aktuelle-angriffe-auf-die-pressefreiheit
  153. vanitasvitae (Link in German)
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  177. edhelas they are preparing a nice conference for the 36c3 :p
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  347. dwd vanitasvitae, Freeing Assange? Why?
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  352. Zash Ge0rG: Do you think you'll find time to look at the 45 anti-gc changes or should I just post it to xsf/xeps ?
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  368. Ge0rG Zash: I don't know, sorry. Is it done yet?
  369. Zash https://github.com/Zash/xeps/commit/7dcee765750f78de31763444df4c3a9640c73809
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  371. Zash Question is whether that's enough or if there are more references to GC10 lurking somewhere
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  379. Zash Mostly that just moves the GC1.0 part so that it's not the first thing you see when you go to the "joining a room" section.
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  390. dwd Zash, Make it a PR, and mention it on standards@. As good a way to get feedback as any.
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  397. Ge0rG Zash: moving is not the same as deleting, right?
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  401. Zash > Compliant multi-user chat services MUST accept [GC 1.0] ... https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#enter-muc
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  405. vanitasvitae dwd: first of all freeing bini.
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  407. Ge0rG misread as "bidi".
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  409. dwd vanitasvitae, I'd argue Ecuador should either charge him or release him. As for Assange, he skipped bail. I'm hoping Sweden put in an extradition claim, as that would take precedence over the US claim, but simply freeing Assange would break UK law quite clearly.
  410. pep. I'm also hoping that Sweden puts in an extradition claim. I don't want to resolve the questions of the claims the US is making :/
  411. Ge0rG It is interesting how being locked into a building for seven years doesn't count as a jail sentence.
  412. Zash I thought Sweden did so already
  413. pep. Because journalists there seem really dumb about it and don't understand that throwing him under the bus could also affect them
  414. dwd Ge0rG, He wasn't locked in. He could leave at any time.
  415. dwd Zash, They might have, I've not been following.
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  457. vanitasvitae > Ge0rG, He wasn't locked in. He could leave at any time. Reminds me of that one prison cell from Game of Thrones...
  458. vanitasvitae https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:MKomarck_TyrionSkyCells.jpg
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  484. rion What can I use to keep some personal settings per muc? Like if I ever want to receive notifications from a specific muc or if I want to load URLs' previews etc. Some extended bookmarks would be perfect probably.
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  487. pep. Our bookmark XEPs are not really bookmarks.. They're more of a sync protocol hacked together. Maybe someday we'll have a real bookmark XEP ("This time it's really real")
  488. pep. So you probably don't want that in there
  489. jonas’ rion, server-side notification settings are interesting for other reasons, as well, and one would probably want a protocol where the server is aware about what’s going on for push etc
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  491. pep. yeah that'd be cool to have
  492. Ge0rG pep.: the one thing that the Bookmarks XEP _doesn't_ do, is sync.
  493. Zash Not even Bookmarks in PEP?
  494. pep. Ge0rG, autojoin?
  495. Zash What does "sync" even mean here?
  496. pep. sync client state, joined or not joined
  497. Ge0rG pep.: it's pull-based
  498. pep. Ge0rG, yeah ok we're not talking about the same thing
  499. Ge0rG pep.: never.
  500. Ge0rG Can't you just stuff extension elements into Bookmarks?
  501. Zash Ge0rG: Sure you can.
  502. Ge0rG Zash: will they persist?
  503. Ge0rG will they persist another client adding a bookmark?
  504. Zash Excellent question
  505. Ge0rG I'm full of them.
  506. Zash I can only tell you that Prosody will preserve whatever data you put there. I don't know about other servers or clients.
  507. Ge0rG Let's put notification preferences into there.
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  509. Ge0rG Also for contacts.
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  512. Ge0rG Or even better: let's stuff them into pep.
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  517. lovetox Ge0rG, gajim did that
  518. lovetox i removed it
  519. lovetox it just needs one client and your user loses his data
  520. lovetox thats not something i would build any features on
  521. Zash That applies to basically everything where data is moved between serialization and native data structures.
  522. Zash Lossy transforms, loss of data.
  523. lovetox yes but we do that not very often
  524. lovetox vcard comes to mind
  525. lovetox rion, you can use private storage
  526. rion yep.
  527. Ge0rG private PEP
  528. lovetox and i dont mean the private storage bookmark namespace
  529. Ge0rG somebody should define a format.
  530. Zash Get it into Bookmarks 2 early
  531. Ge0rG Get it into Roster 2
  532. Zash Before people start relying on non-extensible data structures
  533. Ge0rG Zash: did you say data forms?
  534. Zash Noooooooooooooooooooooooo
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  537. pep. “Ge0rG> Or even better: let's stuff them into pep.”, please don't stuff things in me
  538. Ge0rG pep.: it's fortunately very easy to find the right balance between insulting you and plausible deniability.
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  540. Zash https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/786 - does this qualify as editorial?
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  542. Ge0rG Zash: is this merely the move? git diff isn't very good about showing moved paragraphs
  543. Zash https://cerdale.zash.se/upload/ljHhZXxxx5B9XBte/xep-0045-hide-gc10.html
  544. Ge0rG s/git //
  545. Zash Ge0rG: ^ less xml noise at least
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  547. Ge0rG Zash: I suppose all I wanted to hear is "yes, I only moved the block down, promised!"
  548. Zash Ge0rG: I think I moved some sentences around to make it make sense, but I don't think any semantics are changed
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  550. Ge0rG Does it make sense to vote on that before getting rid of all of GC1?
  551. Zash oorrrrr
  552. Zash -Compliant multi-user chat services MUST accept the foregoing as a where "the foregoing" is GC 1.0 ...
  553. Ge0rG Not that I think it will succeed
  554. Ge0rG Because somebody wanted to ensure removing GC1 doesn't "break things"
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  556. Zash Do we care? Prosody doesn't follow XEP-0045 anymore since it rejects GC 1.0 joins.
  557. dwd Zash, Do you have any figures for how many rejected joins that's caused?
  558. dwd Zash, And perhaps more importantly, whether that figure changed when you stopped accepting GC-1?
  559. Zash dwd: Very few.
  560. Zash IIRC we only saw GC 1.0 joins from one client, which happened to be our own web chat.
  561. Zash The rest were all mis-identified presence updates
  562. Ge0rG Yes.
  563. Ge0rG I've had similar stats on yax.im
  564. Zash Mabye there was some other old version of some random client I never heard of before that did gc1.0?
  565. Ge0rG (I had it running for ~a week, and the GC1 joins were from prosody-chat.tar.gz or from clients that definitively support MUC join)
  566. Zash Seems a small price to pay for not going out of sync when a join is mis-identified as a presence update.
  567. Zash And that web chat was fixed, and then we switched to Converse.js
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  572. dwd Then we drop GC-1.0 support from '45. Change it to MAY initially, perhaps?
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  574. Ge0rG MUST NOT.
  575. dwd Eventually, yes.
  576. Zash Hm, if there had been some way to signal that a complete state dump is being sent, it'd be easier.
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  580. Ge0rG Zash: in GC1.0?
  581. Zash Ge0rG: in MUC
  582. Ge0rG Zash: I might have proposed something in that direction.
  583. Zash A MUC client that sends a presence update that gets treated as a GC1.0 join might end up with stale presence from departed occupants.
  584. Ge0rG Zash: let me scrap some parts from the junkyard of standards@
  585. Ge0rG I need a mutt macro for `/~f georg ~C standards ~s `
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  587. Ge0rG dwd: stats on GC1: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2018-April/034760.html
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  589. Ge0rG Zash: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2017-October/033501.html at the bottom, Proposed Solutions #3
  590. Ge0rG I suppose I can take the fact that I can recite years old threads with solutions to problems that still come up as a lack of progress and general direction in the XSF.
  591. Zash Ge0rG: I'm not sure that's what I was thinking.
  592. Zash I was thinking a thing from the server that says "you were desynced. please drop all state. full state follows"
  593. Zash Then, if a presence update is treated as a join, it won't get out of sync
  594. Zash Could also be useful in case of intermittent s2s problems or cluster merges
  595. Ge0rG Zash: how is the server supposed to know that you were desynced?
  596. Zash Ge0rG: It knows in the case of receiving a presence update from someone not in the room
  597. Ge0rG Zash: provided you deny the existence of GC1
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  599. Ge0rG Zash: and even in that case, how do you know that client can understand a full-state-reset?
  600. Zash Hence why such a thing would have been useful if it already existed.
  601. Ge0rG Zash: this is not how you evolve protocols
  602. Zash As it is now, I think just killing GC 1.0 is fine.
  603. Zash Ge0rG: How are we supposed to fix problems without time travel???? :P
  604. Ge0rG Zash: as sad as it is, the presence of these problems is a clear sign of the non-existence of time travel
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  608. dwd Ge0rG, Erm. But the Council agreed to removing GC-1.0 in principle, and asked for a PR: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2018-April/034768.html
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  610. dwd Ge0rG, It was unanimous and everything. And you promised to do a PR.
  611. Ge0rG dwd: not quite. There was a long-ish discussion about whether it improves things.
  612. Ge0rG > Kev is OK with this in principle, as long as it results in an improvement.
  613. Ge0rG > ... OK with one that doesn't break anything, but isn't sure it's possible
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  615. dwd Ge0rG, Sure, there was no certainty the resulting PR would be accepted. But certainly unanimous agreement that we could in principle remove GC-1.0 support.
  616. Ge0rG dwd: IIRC the minutes aren't clear and accurate in that regard, and that "silently cover up desyncs" was considered a desired feature.
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  618. Ge0rG dwd: I'm pretty sure that everybody in Council can understand the implications of removing GC1 without seeing a PR.
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  621. Ge0rG But yes, I owe us a PR.
  622. Kev This is a thing I may regret asking, because it shows how asleep I am, but what happens if instead of removing gc1 joins, you treat any presence from someone not in the room as a 45 join?
  623. dwd Kev, Isn't that what GC-1.0 is?
  624. Kev With full sync? I vaguely remember this was floated, but I don't remember the discussion.
  625. Zash Kev: You may proceed with regretting
  626. Ge0rG Kev: that is equivalent to gc1
  627. Kev dwd: Not quite, you don't get the MUC payloads, do you?
  628. Zash Kev: Problem is that you don't know that it was a full sync until the last few stanzas of the sync.
  629. dwd Kev, I think you do, don't you? We assume a GC-1.0 client will ignore it.
  630. dwd Kev, The only difference is that room creation via GC-1.0 doesn't lock.
  631. Kev Ah, that was the problem, was it? Not knowing from the first stanza that it's treated as a join?
  632. Zash Or, do you even know? It might be ambigous.
  633. Zash Hence "it'd be nice if there was a state reset signal"
  634. Ge0rG Zash: the self-presence _might_ give that away.
  635. dwd Ge0rG, In any case, COuncil probably can understand the implications in principle of removing GC-1.0 in principle, yes. But Council has to vote on any PR, anyway.
  636. Kev It's a clue, but not proof.
  637. Kev It can certainly go wrong, where MSN is concerned.
  638. Zash Ge0rG: I'm not so sure. Does it say "you joined" or "this is a presence from you"?
  639. Ge0rG Zash: yes
  640. Kev At least as long as the codes aren't used consistently.
  641. Zash Ge0rG: Ah, status code 210?
  642. Ge0rG Zash: no. you also get just a 110 on nick changes.
  643. dwd (I'm happy to agree it's simpler to error a non-joining presence than try and guess if the response is a sync or not)
  644. Ge0rG https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#changepres doesn't say whether to include 110 in presence update reflections
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  646. Zash 110 is "this is your presence" 210 is "service assigned you this nickname"
  647. Ge0rG dwd: have you just gone through https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2017-October/033501.html ?
  648. dwd Ge0rG, No, because it's late and I'm going to bed.
  649. Kev Next question: What happens if you respond to a gc1 join with a kick?
  650. Kev I feel we've had that discussion too, and don't remember why that doesn't work.
  651. dwd Kev, Protocol or physical?
  652. Zash Kev: When joined or not joined?
  653. Kev A gc1 join when you're joined is just a status change.
  654. Ge0rG Kev: how is that different from an error presence?
  655. Kev An error doesn't, on its own, say you're not in the room.
  656. Ge0rG https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#example-23
  657. Zash Also what you get if you try to change nickname and the service says no
  658. Ge0rG no!
  659. Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#example-53
  660. Ge0rG This looks copy&pasted.
  661. Kev It's far too late, and I'm too tired to think properly, but ISTM in my current state that sending a kick if you try to GC1 join would address the resync properties of gc1 from a different angle.
  662. Zash Maybe
  663. Kev (That is: ensure the user knows they're not in the room any more, so they can manually resync, even on old clients, and on new clients they can autorejoin)
  664. Kev (Although you'd want to annotate the kick so a new client would know it's not a 'normal' kick and an autorejoin is ok)
  665. Ge0rG Kev: what's the GC1 syntax for kick?
  666. Kev I'm assuming, possibly wrongly, that the only 'use' these days for gc1 joins is the silent resync, not from gc1 clients.
  667. Zash """use"""
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  669. Zash Do we really want silent resync?
  670. Ge0rG Kev: I agree with your assumption, if we don't imply a positive connotation to 'use'
  671. Kev There's positives and negatives to it. I don't think it's entirely either.
  672. Kev Whereas the explicit kicks might be superior to both.
  673. Ge0rG > Kev: what's the GC1 syntax for kick?
  674. Kev There isn't one. That's what I was saying ,you'd use a 45 kick.
  675. Kev Right, bedtime.
  676. dwd Ge0rG, The assumption is that the only things sending GC-1.0 are resyncing '45 clients doing so by accident, and so they'd understand a '45 kick.
  677. Ge0rG Ah!
  678. Ge0rG So now we need a new status code or error condition for not-in-room.
  679. Zash But not an not-acceptable error?
  680. Ge0rG Zash: which means "you may not change your name" -- "what? Did I try to change my name? Maybe my MSN alter ego did!"
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  684. Ge0rG Zash: thank you, I've made good use of your PR #2
  685. Ge0rG everybody who hasn't gone to bed yet: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/787
  686. Ge0rG &
  687. Ge0rG the PR number does bear a certain irony.
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