Ge0rGis subverting XEPs, one small commit at a time.
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flow
rion, did you consider writing to standards@ and probably the xep authors in CC about the stuff you wrote regarding xep260 in the wiki? I am also interested about the rationale behind proxy-error. Unfortunately this appears to be another example where a XEP tells you what to do, but not why…
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rion
flow: Hi. maybe in the evening. Working for now.
rion
btw at work I do some modifications in Janus server for our customer. and in its signaling has a special attribute for final local candidate. That's what missed in Jingle S5B
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edhelas
Ge0rG are you slowly turining 0060 into MIX 😱
Ge0rG
edhelas: I'm not touching 0060 with a pole.
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pep.
There was a place in the RFCs that say thou shalt not add yourself to the roster, right? I can't find it
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vanitasvitae
CCC is demanding freedom for Assange, Manning and Bini: https://www.ccc.de/de/updates/2019/chaos-computer-club-besorgt-uber-aktuelle-angriffe-auf-die-pressefreiheit
vanitasvitae
(Link in German)
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edhelas
they are preparing a nice conference for the 36c3 :p
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dwd
vanitasvitae, Freeing Assange? Why?
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Zash
Ge0rG: Do you think you'll find time to look at the 45 anti-gc changes or should I just post it to xsf/xeps ?
vanitasvitae, I'd argue Ecuador should either charge him or release him. As for Assange, he skipped bail. I'm hoping Sweden put in an extradition claim, as that would take precedence over the US claim, but simply freeing Assange would break UK law quite clearly.
pep.
I'm also hoping that Sweden puts in an extradition claim. I don't want to resolve the questions of the claims the US is making :/
Ge0rG
It is interesting how being locked into a building for seven years doesn't count as a jail sentence.
Zash
I thought Sweden did so already
pep.
Because journalists there seem really dumb about it and don't understand that throwing him under the bus could also affect them
dwd
Ge0rG, He wasn't locked in. He could leave at any time.
dwd
Zash, They might have, I've not been following.
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vanitasvitae
> Ge0rG, He wasn't locked in. He could leave at any time.
Reminds me of that one prison cell from Game of Thrones...
What can I use to keep some personal settings per muc? Like if I ever want to receive notifications from a specific muc or if I want to load URLs' previews etc. Some extended bookmarks would be perfect probably.
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pep.
Our bookmark XEPs are not really bookmarks.. They're more of a sync protocol hacked together. Maybe someday we'll have a real bookmark XEP ("This time it's really real")
pep.
So you probably don't want that in there
jonas’
rion, server-side notification settings are interesting for other reasons, as well, and one would probably want a protocol where the server is aware about what’s going on for push etc
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pep.
yeah that'd be cool to have
Ge0rG
pep.: the one thing that the Bookmarks XEP _doesn't_ do, is sync.
Zash
Not even Bookmarks in PEP?
pep.
Ge0rG, autojoin?
Zash
What does "sync" even mean here?
pep.
sync client state, joined or not joined
Ge0rG
pep.: it's pull-based
pep.
Ge0rG, yeah ok we're not talking about the same thing
Ge0rG
pep.: never.
Ge0rG
Can't you just stuff extension elements into Bookmarks?
Zash
Ge0rG: Sure you can.
Ge0rG
Zash: will they persist?
Ge0rG
will they persist another client adding a bookmark?
Zash
Excellent question
Ge0rG
I'm full of them.
Zash
I can only tell you that Prosody will preserve whatever data you put there. I don't know about other servers or clients.
Ge0rG
Let's put notification preferences into there.
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Ge0rG
Also for contacts.
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Ge0rG
Or even better: let's stuff them into pep.
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lovetox
Ge0rG, gajim did that
lovetox
i removed it
lovetox
it just needs one client and your user loses his data
lovetox
thats not something i would build any features on
Zash
That applies to basically everything where data is moved between serialization and native data structures.
Zash
Lossy transforms, loss of data.
lovetox
yes but we do that not very often
lovetox
vcard comes to mind
lovetox
rion, you can use private storage
rion
yep.
Ge0rG
private PEP
lovetox
and i dont mean the private storage bookmark namespace
Ge0rG
somebody should define a format.
Zash
Get it into Bookmarks 2 early
Ge0rG
Get it into Roster 2
Zash
Before people start relying on non-extensible data structures
Ge0rG
Zash: did you say data forms?
Zash
Noooooooooooooooooooooooo
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pep.
“Ge0rG> Or even better: let's stuff them into pep.”, please don't stuff things in me
Ge0rG
pep.: it's fortunately very easy to find the right balance between insulting you and plausible deniability.
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Zash
https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/786 - does this qualify as editorial?
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Ge0rG
Zash: is this merely the move? git diff isn't very good about showing moved paragraphs
Zash: I suppose all I wanted to hear is "yes, I only moved the block down, promised!"
Zash
Ge0rG: I think I moved some sentences around to make it make sense, but I don't think any semantics are changed
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Ge0rG
Does it make sense to vote on that before getting rid of all of GC1?
Zash
oorrrrr
Zash
-Compliant multi-user chat services MUST accept the foregoing as a
where "the foregoing" is GC 1.0 ...
Ge0rG
Not that I think it will succeed
Ge0rG
Because somebody wanted to ensure removing GC1 doesn't "break things"
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Zash
Do we care? Prosody doesn't follow XEP-0045 anymore since it rejects GC 1.0 joins.
dwd
Zash, Do you have any figures for how many rejected joins that's caused?
dwd
Zash, And perhaps more importantly, whether that figure changed when you stopped accepting GC-1?
Zash
dwd: Very few.
Zash
IIRC we only saw GC 1.0 joins from one client, which happened to be our own web chat.
Zash
The rest were all mis-identified presence updates
Ge0rG
Yes.
Ge0rG
I've had similar stats on yax.im
Zash
Mabye there was some other old version of some random client I never heard of before that did gc1.0?
Ge0rG
(I had it running for ~a week, and the GC1 joins were from prosody-chat.tar.gz or from clients that definitively support MUC join)
Zash
Seems a small price to pay for not going out of sync when a join is mis-identified as a presence update.
Zash
And that web chat was fixed, and then we switched to Converse.js
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dwd
Then we drop GC-1.0 support from '45. Change it to MAY initially, perhaps?
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Ge0rG
MUST NOT.
dwd
Eventually, yes.
Zash
Hm, if there had been some way to signal that a complete state dump is being sent, it'd be easier.
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Ge0rG
Zash: in GC1.0?
Zash
Ge0rG: in MUC
Ge0rG
Zash: I might have proposed something in that direction.
Zash
A MUC client that sends a presence update that gets treated as a GC1.0 join might end up with stale presence from departed occupants.
Ge0rG
Zash: let me scrap some parts from the junkyard of standards@
Ge0rG
I need a mutt macro for `/~f georg ~C standards ~s `
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Ge0rG
dwd: stats on GC1: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2018-April/034760.html
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Ge0rG
Zash: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2017-October/033501.html at the bottom, Proposed Solutions #3
Ge0rG
I suppose I can take the fact that I can recite years old threads with solutions to problems that still come up as a lack of progress and general direction in the XSF.
Zash
Ge0rG: I'm not sure that's what I was thinking.
Zash
I was thinking a thing from the server that says "you were desynced. please drop all state. full state follows"
Zash
Then, if a presence update is treated as a join, it won't get out of sync
Zash
Could also be useful in case of intermittent s2s problems or cluster merges
Ge0rG
Zash: how is the server supposed to know that you were desynced?
Zash
Ge0rG: It knows in the case of receiving a presence update from someone not in the room
Ge0rG
Zash: provided you deny the existence of GC1
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Ge0rG
Zash: and even in that case, how do you know that client can understand a full-state-reset?
Zash
Hence why such a thing would have been useful if it already existed.
Ge0rG
Zash: this is not how you evolve protocols
Zash
As it is now, I think just killing GC 1.0 is fine.
Zash
Ge0rG: How are we supposed to fix problems without time travel???? :P
Ge0rG
Zash: as sad as it is, the presence of these problems is a clear sign of the non-existence of time travel
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dwd
Ge0rG, Erm. But the Council agreed to removing GC-1.0 in principle, and asked for a PR: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2018-April/034768.html
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dwd
Ge0rG, It was unanimous and everything. And you promised to do a PR.
Ge0rG
dwd: not quite. There was a long-ish discussion about whether it improves things.
Ge0rG
> Kev is OK with this in principle, as long as it results in an improvement.
Ge0rG
> ... OK with one that doesn't break anything, but isn't sure it's possible
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dwd
Ge0rG, Sure, there was no certainty the resulting PR would be accepted. But certainly unanimous agreement that we could in principle remove GC-1.0 support.
Ge0rG
dwd: IIRC the minutes aren't clear and accurate in that regard, and that "silently cover up desyncs" was considered a desired feature.
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Ge0rG
dwd: I'm pretty sure that everybody in Council can understand the implications of removing GC1 without seeing a PR.
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Ge0rG
But yes, I owe us a PR.
Kev
This is a thing I may regret asking, because it shows how asleep I am, but what happens if instead of removing gc1 joins, you treat any presence from someone not in the room as a 45 join?
dwd
Kev, Isn't that what GC-1.0 is?
Kev
With full sync? I vaguely remember this was floated, but I don't remember the discussion.
Zash
Kev: You may proceed with regretting
Ge0rG
Kev: that is equivalent to gc1
Kev
dwd: Not quite, you don't get the MUC payloads, do you?
Zash
Kev: Problem is that you don't know that it was a full sync until the last few stanzas of the sync.
dwd
Kev, I think you do, don't you? We assume a GC-1.0 client will ignore it.
dwd
Kev, The only difference is that room creation via GC-1.0 doesn't lock.
Kev
Ah, that was the problem, was it? Not knowing from the first stanza that it's treated as a join?
Zash
Or, do you even know? It might be ambigous.
Zash
Hence "it'd be nice if there was a state reset signal"
Ge0rG
Zash: the self-presence _might_ give that away.
dwd
Ge0rG, In any case, COuncil probably can understand the implications in principle of removing GC-1.0 in principle, yes. But Council has to vote on any PR, anyway.
Kev
It's a clue, but not proof.
Kev
It can certainly go wrong, where MSN is concerned.
Zash
Ge0rG: I'm not so sure. Does it say "you joined" or "this is a presence from you"?
Ge0rG
Zash: yes
Kev
At least as long as the codes aren't used consistently.
Zash
Ge0rG: Ah, status code 210?
Ge0rG
Zash: no. you also get just a 110 on nick changes.
dwd
(I'm happy to agree it's simpler to error a non-joining presence than try and guess if the response is a sync or not)
Ge0rG
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#changepres doesn't say whether to include 110 in presence update reflections
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Zash
110 is "this is your presence"
210 is "service assigned you this nickname"
Ge0rG
dwd: have you just gone through https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2017-October/033501.html ?
dwd
Ge0rG, No, because it's late and I'm going to bed.
Kev
Next question: What happens if you respond to a gc1 join with a kick?
Kev
I feel we've had that discussion too, and don't remember why that doesn't work.
dwd
Kev, Protocol or physical?
Zash
Kev: When joined or not joined?
Kev
A gc1 join when you're joined is just a status change.
Ge0rG
Kev: how is that different from an error presence?
Kev
An error doesn't, on its own, say you're not in the room.
It's far too late, and I'm too tired to think properly, but ISTM in my current state that sending a kick if you try to GC1 join would address the resync properties of gc1 from a different angle.
Zash
Maybe
Kev
(That is: ensure the user knows they're not in the room any more, so they can manually resync, even on old clients, and on new clients they can autorejoin)
Kev
(Although you'd want to annotate the kick so a new client would know it's not a 'normal' kick and an autorejoin is ok)
Ge0rG
Kev: what's the GC1 syntax for kick?
Kev
I'm assuming, possibly wrongly, that the only 'use' these days for gc1 joins is the silent resync, not from gc1 clients.
Zash
"""use"""
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Zash
Do we really want silent resync?
Ge0rG
Kev: I agree with your assumption, if we don't imply a positive connotation to 'use'
Kev
There's positives and negatives to it. I don't think it's entirely either.
Kev
Whereas the explicit kicks might be superior to both.
Ge0rG
> Kev: what's the GC1 syntax for kick?
Kev
There isn't one. That's what I was saying ,you'd use a 45 kick.
Kev
Right, bedtime.
dwd
Ge0rG, The assumption is that the only things sending GC-1.0 are resyncing '45 clients doing so by accident, and so they'd understand a '45 kick.
Ge0rG
Ah!
Ge0rG
So now we need a new status code or error condition for not-in-room.
Zash
But not an not-acceptable error?
Ge0rG
Zash: which means "you may not change your name" -- "what? Did I try to change my name? Maybe my MSN alter ego did!"
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Ge0rG
Zash: thank you, I've made good use of your PR #2
Ge0rG
everybody who hasn't gone to bed yet: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/787