XSF Discussion - 2019-04-18

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  40. flow let's see if it flies?
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  55. dwd As long as it doesn't nose-dive...
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  72. jonas’ Ge0rG, I don’t have my github credentials with me, but this wording needs fixing (re #787): > <p>This behavior can not be distinguished from a presence update from a MUC-supporting client that was desynchronized from the room. Treating this as a groupchat 1.0 join will mask the error and leave the client in a partially-synchronized state. Therefore, starting with version 1.32 of this specification, it is RECOMMENDED that a service receiving a &lt;presence&gt; without an &lt;x&gt; element responds with an explicit kick to that client.</p> I suggest: > <p>This behavior can not be distinguished from a presence update from a MUC-supporting client that was desynchronized from the room. Treating this as a groupchat 1.0 join will mask the error and leave the client in a partially-synchronized state. Therefore, starting with version 1.32 of this specification, it is RECOMMENDED that a service receiving a &lt;presence&gt; without an &lt;x&gt; element from a non-occupant full JID responds with an explicit kick to that client.</p>
  73. jonas’ (note the added `from a non-occupant full JID`)
  74. Ge0rG jonas’: I was going to ask for a mini-diff.
  75. flow or even better: word diff
  76. Ge0rG jonas’: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/787/commits/84674a922133ac1cbee98f46ee2e0d87214f5fda
  77. jonas’ +1 :)
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  122. Kev Ge0rG: How do you feel about adding a new status code for 'you were kicked because you're not in the room'? Then 'new' clients could receive this and know that they need to autorejoin (which you shouldn't normally do on a kick).
  123. Kev Otherwise, that PR LGTM, thanks.
  124. pep. I was wondering if 333 couldn't be of use here, but maybe it's a bit different
  125. Kev 333 probably works actually, yeah.
  126. Kev Although equally, creating a new code specifically for this seems fine too, and possibly clearer.
  127. jonas’ maybe defer this to the magic MUC application-specific-error-conditions XEP which flow volunteered to write? :)
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  130. Kev I think this one we may as well just do Right Now, while merging Georg's PR, as it's such a simple change. Even if we choose 333.
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  137. Ge0rG Kev: a code or a condition or a 333?
  138. Ge0rG Wait. Not 0333 the XEP but 333 the status code.
  139. pep. Yes the status code
  140. Ge0rG Yes, 333 is a logical addition there.
  141. Kev I'd just like a sign to a post-1.32 client that it's allowed to rejoin after this kick.
  142. Ge0rG `urn:xmpp:muc:1.32`
  143. Kev And then I think we've got 'gc1 joins' providing full resyncs for a client that understands them, and still letting the user know they're not in the room any more for those that don't.
  144. Ge0rG Kev: I can't parse that statement
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  147. pep. anybody ever thought about advertising "up to what version a client supports"? :-°
  148. Kev If we have a mechanism (such as 333) such that a client written after this text knows that the kick was because of a desync, it means that sending a presence when not in the room (i.e. gc1 join) will give us a full resync mechanism. While clients written before this text (so not understanding that 333 or whatever means they can rejoin) will still be telling the user they're not in the room any more.
  149. Kev Ge0rG: See if that parses better.
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  151. Kev I think I'd prefer a new code with unique semantics, rather than 333, but I think 333 also works.
  152. Ge0rG Kev: yes. But please avoid using "gc1 join" if you actually mean "desync occupant presence update"
  153. Ge0rG Kev: why not a new error condition, one that could be added to Self Ping.
  154. Kev Not sure I entirely understand the suggestion, but as long as it's something that can annotate a kick, I expect I'm ok with it.
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  166. Ge0rG Kev: we had an idea of creating a custom error condition of `<not-an-occupant xmlns="http://jabber.org/protocol/muc"/>` for Self-Ping, but then we realized it would be a good extension to 0045, and I think it would be a perfect match for the "kick"
  167. Kev So you're suggesting putting that alongside the kick element?
  168. Kev (As well as using it in self-ping)
  169. Kev I see no reason that wouldn't work.
  170. Ge0rG Kev: I'm pretty sure you can't have a kick that's also an error.
  171. Kev It doesn't need to be an error for a kick does it?
  172. Ge0rG Does it make sense to put an error condition into a non-error?
  173. Kev I thought you were suggesting something like: <presence from='harfleur@chat.shakespeare.lit/pistol' to='pistol@shakespeare.lit/harfleur' type='unavailable'> <x xmlns='http://jabber.org/protocol/muc#user'> <item affiliation='none' role='none'> <actor nick='Fluellen'/> <reason>Avaunt, you cullion!</reason> </item> <status code='110'/> <status code='307'/> <not-an-occupant xmlns="http://jabber.org/protocol/muc"/> </x> </presence> or I thought you were suggesting something like: <presence from='harfleur@chat.shakespeare.lit/pistol' to='pistol@shakespeare.lit/harfleur' type='unavailable'> <x xmlns='http://jabber.org/protocol/muc#user'> <item affiliation='none' role='none'> <actor nick='Fluellen'/> <reason>Avaunt, you cullion!</reason> </item> <status code='110'/> <status code='307'/> </x> <not-an-occupant xmlns="http://jabber.org/protocol/muc"/> </presence>
  174. Ge0rG Kev: I hadn't thought through what I was actually suggesting.
  175. Ge0rG In retrospect, it doesn't make much sense. But maybe it's because MUC is a _bad_ spec and not because it's inherently a bad idea to have that condition code.
  176. Ge0rG > A MUC service MAY support adding the 333 status code to presences when a user gets removed by the service due to a technical problem (e.g. s2s link failure). This is OPTIONAL.
  177. Ge0rG Why the FFFF is it OPTIONAL?
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  180. pep. Something something backwards compat something something
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  183. Ge0rG Kev: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/787/commits/049f186631592cde21dc404c5f6bca4da887e7ea
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  185. Ge0rG I've gone with a MUST for 333, because the kicking itself is only RECOMMENDED
  186. Ge0rG but maybe I need to reword that into a MAY + lowercase "recommended"
  187. Ge0rG Old-school rendering: https://op-co.de/tmp/xep-0045.html#enter-gc
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  189. Kev I don't pretend the situation is perfect, but I think this is the best option we've currently thought of.
  190. Kev Thanks Ge0rG
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  193. Ge0rG Kev: I suppose 333 makes more sense than stuffing a condition into a non-error.
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  196. flow why not both?
  197. flow Or at least put a human readable string into it
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  199. Ge0rG flow: like... `<reason>You are not in the room.</reason>`
  200. Ge0rG flow: can you please clarify "both" in terms of XML?
  201. flow Anything which helps the recipient looking at the raw stanza to understand why he received it
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  203. flow Ge0rG, similar to what key wrote above + 333
  204. Ge0rG flow: > I suppose 333 makes more sense than stuffing a condition into a non-error.
  205. flow Right, but why not also add the condition (or alternative another text)?
  206. Ge0rG flow: have a look at https://op-co.de/tmp/xep-0045.html#example-44
  207. Ge0rG flow: an application-specific error condition is supposed to be inside of an <error/>. Putting it into <x/> doesn't quite make sense. It would be just yet another MUC presence element.
  208. flow I don't see an issue with that. But again, I am mostly concerenced that the protocol is throwing around with numbers when it could also use strings which would be much more accessible regarding what is going on when looking at the raw stanzas
  209. Ge0rG flow: let's reinvent MUC.
  210. flow but if there is always supposed to be a </reason> then that is fine I guess
  211. Ge0rG flow: you need to i18nize reasons.
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  243. intosi The rendered XEPs in the attic fail to load the navigation after the CSS update :(
  244. jonas’ intosi, yes, that is an open issue
  245. jonas’ we need to do some file shuffling
  246. intosi By that, you mean make the CSS and files available in /attic as well?
  247. intosi * and support files
  248. jonas’ I am in a meeting right now, I don’t know off the top of my head what’s needed
  249. intosi Okay.
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  266. Guus board o'clock.
  267. Seve says hi
  268. Guus MattJ ralphm ?
  269. Guus Nyco excused himself.
  270. Guus uh-oh.
  271. Seve has a "What do we do?" face.
  272. Guus While we wait: Seve, if I recall correctly, we agreed to volunteer you to create a job board proposal, right?
  273. Guus can we remove that from 'awaiting feedback' until a proposal is ready?
  274. Seve Guus, yes :), I don't have something yet unfortunately, but I've been looking at what the guys at opensourcedesign and I think we could follow something similar (at least the way of posting a job)
  275. Seve Guus, yes, completely
  276. Guus No problem, I'm not rushing you - but I don't think that there's anything for Board to discuss on that, that's why I'm asking.
  277. Seve We also don't have it as an item yet, but I think we could consider the following suggestion for the badges: https://opensourcedesign.net/jobs/jobs/2019-03-19-design-of-badges-for-different-xmpp-compliance-levels
  278. Seve I will add it
  279. Seve Well, actually, what I want to discuss is how do we want to proceed on this :)
  280. Guus oh, I didn't see those badge proposals. Ge0rG cc ^^
  281. Guus "this" being the badges?
  282. Guus or the job board?
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  286. Seve Guus, sorry, the badges. I added a card there, to talk about it.
  287. Seve Cool, looks like we kind of did something anyway, Guus :)
  288. Guus indeed 🙂
  289. Guus lacking others, I shall now resume doing somethings that actually earn me money though 🙂
  290. Guus I can't make it next week (I already sent an email about that)
  291. Seve I'm +1 on that! :)
  292. Seve Yes
  293. Seve We are on a holidays period, so it was quite expected anyway.
  294. Guus I archived the job board card
  295. Guus let's bring it up again after we've something to show.
  296. Seve Yup!
  297. Guus (a job board 😛 )
  298. Seve :)
  299. Guus kk, ttyl!
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  420. jjrh New XEP html looks nice :)
  421. jonas’ jjrh, thanks :)
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